Switched on Pop - Can “professor” Charlie Puth pass our qualifying exam?

Episode Date: October 28, 2025

Charlie Puth breaks down his new single "Changes," a maximalist eighties production hiding a melancholy story about drifting friendships. As he prepares for fatherhood, the singer-songwriter reflects on how relationships evolve from deep conversations to small talk, why he listens to lyrics last, and his belief that music should offer a three-minute escape from life's exhaustion. Between demonstrating vocal techniques, championing forgotten producer Rod Temperton, and turning "You Are My Sunshine" into a minor-key lullaby, Puth makes his case for earning the title "Professor," with one simple lesson: stop overthinking and just feel the music. Songs Discussed Wiz Khalifa feat. Charlie Puth "See You Again"Charlie Puth "Attention"Charlie Puth "Changes"Charlie Puth "Hero"The Weeknd "Blinding Lights"Dua Lipa "Physical"Olivia Newton-John "Physical"Phil Collins "In the Air Tonight"Tears for Fears "Everybody Wants to Rule the World"Heatwave "The Groove Line"Tamia "You Put a Move on My Heart"Heatwave "All You Do Is Dial"Michael Jackson "Thriller"Traditional "You Are My Sunshine" Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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It's free for iOS users. Welcome to Switch done Pop. I'm songwriter Charlie Harding. Charlie Puth is a melody savant, a wizard on the piano and a master of production, which he studied at Berkeley College of Musicware, full disclosure, I'm an associate professor. Puth first broke out with songs like 2015's See You Again. and grabbed the world by the collar with his 2018 song Attention. Now in the rollout to his latest album, Whatever's Clever, Puth has been sharing some musical knowledge under the honorific Professor Puth. Musicologist Dr. Nate Sloan, the real professor, last spoke with Puth a year ago.

But I wanted to bring Puth back to challenge him and see if he's really earned the title and to hear about the shiny. 80s sound all over his latest single Changes. Here's my conversation with Charlie Puth. Charlie, thank you for joining me on Switchdown Pop. I appreciate it. It's my pleasure. And thank you for playing some piano for us. You have a new song out called Changes.

I want to take a listen to it. Okay. And I want to hear about some of the changes that you're going through. Okay. I love these speakers. I mix these. I mix the song on these speakers. Oh, yeah. Oh, interesting. Yeah. This is exactly how it should be translated. NS10s, right? Yeah, these are the contemporary Aventone versions of the NS10s. The famous Yamaha

Ns Nsense are out of production. Oh, well, okay, well, they sound exactly the same. So the last that you were on Switched on Pop, you chatted with my colleague Nate about the song, Hero, which in contrast is a quite sort of minimalist production. And I feel like here on changes, everything

is overflowing. There's literally like a gospel choir in the background. Yeah. How do you feel like this maximalist production is supporting the message of the song? Well, this song aligns with my life right now and before I was like, I had to better put a song out and in the back of my mind I was like, no, you don't have

any idea what you're doing yet. You have no idea what's coming. You have to live life first and not rush the music and that's how this whole album came about. I had to take a closer look at myself and then melody happened after. So this album started from a very non-musical place. What are the changes? Well, the obvious changes are that I'm going to be a dad. Congratulations. Thank you. So exciting. In March. But there's a lot of changes loaded into

changes. The song is actually about the end of a friendship. And it just affirms me that people don't really listen to the lyrics on first listen, like me. Like, I never listen to the lyrics on first listen. I'm a lyrics seventh person. Lyrics, 110th for me. They become so essential and important. But it takes a second

like, I'm so brought in by melody, by hooks, by all of the little sweet air candy and things you put in there. And then it's like, once the lyrics hit you, you're like, oh. For some people, the lyrics are first. Yeah, right. The stake is done in three minutes. But for me, it's like, it's a really like thick cut, I can't call it. It's a thick cut of beef and like it takes time to marinate. Yeah, right, right. But the song is actually about the end of a friendship and you don't know why it ends, but it might be a good thing. It might be a bad thing. You don't really know why. The song is a big question mark and changes a very multi-layered kind of thing. Maybe that's why there's so many sounds in the song too. There's a growing up, which is happening here. And, and how I heard that first line.

And let me just play it for a second, actually. That verse is about that things have changed. It's not how it used to be. And you make it fun by repeating the talk in the talk in the talk. I'm sad, but am I really not? Which is often the emotion that we have to put on when it's like, hey, I haven't seen you in a while. We're doing the small talk.

And you're like putting the smile on. Yeah, it's like, did we ever know each other, really? But it's a happy sounding song, so it doesn't have to be all... It's not even sad. I wouldn't describe it as sad. Maybe I was wrong saying that. It's more like melancholic in a way. Reminiscent.

Reminiscent, yeah. The song leans heavily into the sounds of, I think, of like, adult pop music of the 1980s. Yeah, tape cassette in the five series. Exactly. So your... Car smells like spilled coffee. Thinking Phil Collins, Peter Gabriel, Lionel Richie, I think about the productions of like Hugh Patom and Trevor Horn.

Absolutely. The 80s have been really big recently, but maybe kind of more as like an element. I think of the maybe the snare drum and sense of blinding lights. Or Kiss Me More Sample, Dr. Sure. It's Delphalates, Olivia Newton-John. But this is like, you're really going for a sound that actually I don't hear a lot today. Well, I think anything I make is always going to be derived from something.

Anything that anyone makes is going to be, whether it be the, overall sound, like the lyric, it might be, there's always something to borrow from, in my opinion, that is. But I wouldn't even describe this song as a, I think it's very easy for most of like call it a complete 80s production, but I think if we were to really zoom in on it, it's almost like the point in time where producers and musicians were trying to figure out where to go in the 90s. Like, if this came out in October of 1989 and, there's a brand new piece of gear and a brand and a 909, which I think came out in 87, but there's a drum machine.

Yeah, a drum machine, like new pieces of gear and pro tools formerly sound tools. It's like you could record things even more digitally and like run them through the analog desk and you had more headroom suddenly. There's a real difference between a 1990 record and a 1989 record, in my opinion. So much difference of clarity. Absolutely. You've listened to some of the records that I think. this references and you're like oh it feels smaller it doesn't punch as hard and it's just

because of changes in technology to bring up an example listen to get into the groove by madonna and compare it to life is a mystery like a prayer like a prayer when did like a prayer come out versus get into the groove so into the groove is 85 like a prayer 1989, March 1989. Yes, I'm right. Incredible. So good. Oh, my God. I got like face chills. These are one of those songs that didn't even matter what they wrote in the verse. The chorus is just so good. I mean, it basically starts right there, too, which I love.

Okay, so copy that in your mind and then listen to like a prayer. So much wider, cleaner, crisper. You could fit more instruments, literally, into the board. They figured out how to use the older equipment better. Changes is not like a 1981 record. It's more of like a 1989-2020 record. Because I feel

like music in 2020 sounds completely different than 2026, in my opinion. What are some of those differences? I actually feel like things have gotten a little wetter. More reverb. There was this TikTok song in 2020. It was like, dancing in my room. I don't know, I don't forget me.

I don't remember who the artist was. I remember the drums being really, really dry. Right, the artist is 347 Aden. And now you hear a Conan Gray song and Olivia Rodriguez song. It's drenched in reverb because I don't know, it's just stylistically how you get the emotion out. What are some of the sounds of these eras that you're drawing from that are most resonant that you wanted to play with?

I mean, I think the lindrum is forever a staple. I was listening to New Light by John Merr. the other day and a record he produced with no ID and the base of that there I'm assuming there's a real drum kit probably with the room mics and then there's a Lynn kick and snare and a Lynn clap that record came out in 2019 and then you listen to what's the what's the Prince song 1999 which came out in 82 and you hear the same Lynn claps just processed a little bit differently, or maybe they're not. I like hearing a song that came out in 2025 and drawing the similarities to like something that

happened in the 80s. Even records from like, if you listen to Do You Think I'm Sexy by Rod Stewart, that's going into the disco era, but you can feel the producer trying to figure out like we're going into a new era, where do we go? There's all this new equipment. Are we going to use a real snare? Are we going to blend it with this new linds? thing that we just got like right you can feel this record going into the 90s and I wanted changes to

feel like it was going into 2026 I mean changes is such a different record for me than attention which is just no reverb one of my favorite productions of all time I teach it I taught it twice yesterday I love that song well a lot of people do it's the ultimate example of the down chorus it is the thing that defies all your expectations. The first time I heard it, I'm like, what? I guess I got the idea from, I can't feel my face from the weekend. Oh, yeah. I definitely wasn't the inventor of the anticlimactic drop.

But it earns it because you're grabbing some of the attention. Well, for a while there, a lot of songs had the anti-drop, but it was all in Progressive House music. You listen to anything from, like, Progressive House, like 2014, there's a song called, Martin Garrick's helicopter and it's just like these beautiful scents and the heavy Nicky Romero's side chain

and just dry but like also wet but the side chain makes it feel dry to me that was like a big drop let's talk more about some of those sounds though that are so we got that lindrum any other characteristic sounds of this sort of 1889 late 80s thing

Probably, what's this called? The clave? Yeah. If you play at the very top of changes. It's just like a little perk. It's really quiet. You listen to Gap Band. Got the idea to put that in there from this song.

They would put it over the snare drum. Isley Brothers did that a lot too. And then, of course, Nas would later sample it. And I was like, wow, a snare and a clave at this. same time. I got to put a clave. Yeah. And my song, Boy has a claw. I love clave. There's a song by the DOC called Is It Funky Enough that has many clavis because Dr. J loved putting clavets on the grid. I'm going off the rail here. One of the things that makes you realize we've been living

in an era of a lot of sort of dark music. A lot of, in order to make room for the vocal, oftentimes just filtering out all of the main music bed. Yeah. And it's underwater. changes is the exact opposite. That clave is bright. Everything is forward. It's right in front of your face. Yeah, because, and again, I'm not the only artist doing this right now, but I just, I think it's exciting when I don't hear something, and I only hear a few artists doing it.

Like, Audrey Hobart is making music right now that's, like, very in your face. The synths are like almost as loud as her vocals. She's wonderful. Very cool sound like here. You got to tell me, though, about the changes and changes. Sure. What's going on? What are the changes over there?

Oh, you mean the chord changes? Oh, yeah, yeah. If you have a song called Changes and you're Charlie Pooh, people want to hear about the changes. Well, it's, um, Blood Pop is so, who I made the record with, is so funny because he'll be designing a game while I'm loading up sounds. Like he will have his computer here and just be literally writing code for a game, like a, like, Fortnite, like his own version of Fortnite. He was like, I'm making this game right now. He's a genius. But he'll be like, okay.

let's get to work. So he'll put the game window over here for all the code, and then he'll pull up Ableton on the other side of his window, and he'll just, I think he does it on purpose, so he doesn't overthink. He'll just drag and drop samples. And it was a very good, clunky start of changes. And I heard,

nothing had velocity. It just sounded like drag and drop samples that he was like manipulating. And, um, and I heard that guitar and I was like, uh-oh, these are a couple of suspended chords.

The dissonance there. And then when I did that, he stood up and was like, yum. He says yum when he likes things. He stood up and I don't know the names of these chords. I just don't know. And then he was like something has to change for the pre- chorus and I love Phil Collins obviously and Phil always went to the minor two for pre-chorus especially on his album star I must be going and Blood doesn't know the name of

the chords either but I was playing something wrong before I was doing something lame like he was like no it's like it needs to feel like you're not done yet and I was like what is what is feeling like you're not done yet sound like And I just started playing without a lyric written and then I'm just mumbling things into this microphone actually and I just instinctually was just like And he stood up and was like

There's been some changes That's literally how it went I was like, yeah, you got married There's been some changes And I sang it like There's been some changes And he was like no Do it like like

Like a 50-person choirs behind you. There's been some changes. There's been some changes. And then when I did that, we both set off. And then we wrote the whole chorus in like one shot. You've been working hard recently and bringing back the piano solo into pop music. I love the piano solo in this record.

It reminds you... Feels varying the language like Bruce Hornsby the way it is. Oh, yeah. That's exactly what we were listening to. We were listening to a bunch of stuff, but... Those are some good changes. I think we actually sent it to Bruce Hornsby. We sent the song to Bruce Hornsby, and he heard it and wrote an email back from our contact,

and he said, this is wonderful, but I don't know what I could add to this. This sounds done, which I was disappointed because I was like, I want to put Bruce Hornsby on changes, but that was, I realized, that's like true musicianship when you know when to stay back. He was like, why would I replay this piano part? It sounds done.

So that was a very nice compliment from him. Part of it is just that it captures a bit of the tone of that moment, that really crisp, bright, feels like a Yamaha piano. You remember the, what are the CDs, Enigma? It was music made to make you relax. It was like big choirs. Oh, Pure Moods. Pure Moods?

Was it Pure Moods? Oh, that's, okay, Pure Moods was the... I think it was Pure Moods. Where did it get Enigma? No, no, no, that's the name of the record. Pure Moods was the album, the compilation. And you're thinking of return to innocence by Enigma. It's made to like you're driving back from work music.

That's what kind of kicked off this whole record. It's not a song specifically, not a Bruce Hornsby song specifically, but just the feeling of what those records did. When there was a little less technology, you didn't know what 100,000 people were doing at once, when you called somebody and said, I'll be over at eight, and you were expected to go over at 8.

There were no text messages. It's just there was technology, but they were like bricks of cell phones. There was a bit of peace. The only piece you have now is when you don't have Wi-Fi on your airplane and you have no choice but to turn off. We also had no choice to turn off back then. And I lived through that too, but then I also saw the dawn of technology and how that affected music in a good way too.

But the music I'm making now, this album, I would say, kind of is turn your mind off music. It's got that choir going. Yeah. That choir came at the very, very end. It actually started out as AI. There's a program called Replay, and I sang into, I can build. I'm not the only one I can do this, but I can build out the,

I start up here, changes, changes. And I kind of manipulated my voice to sound like a lot of people in a choir. change a lot just yawn and like you know make your voice a little wider changes in our life and then double that go back and changes in our life and then I took every mono vocal track and ran it through this choir setting and it sounded like a choir yeah and then we got a real choir and layered it on top of the fake choir really sounds like a choir and I thought I was going to take out the AI choir but it just did something it like lifted uh it's like what Steely Dan used to do when they recorded a flute, they would put a little sign wave under the flute.

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You've been showing us a lot of really fun, some really fun music. On the internet,

you've been going as Professor Puth. Yeah. Now, kind of dressed like it now too.

Very handsome. Thanks. We want to confirm that you've properly earned this title. You know,

my colleague, Nate, has PhD, as a professor at USC. I profess at NYU and at Berkeley

College of Music. Like, our institutions have bestowed zero power upon us. But with the powers of podcasting, we want to make sure that you've passed your switched on pop qualifying exam. Oh, boy. This is where I fail. I'm so bad at taking exams. I always failed test at Berkeley. I love Berkeley, but I never did well on the tests.

Let's see if we can come out of this earning Professor Puth. Okay. So let's start with an easy one. Okay. Can you play a 251 in the key of B-flat major? If I have enough room here 5.1. Very nice. On the little piano. Excellent. Can we go to the key of F? Another 2.51, but can you add a secondary

dominant and a tritone substitution? This is where you start to... So, F major. That's the 251. Now, what did you... We need a secondary dominant in there. I don't know what a secondary... Make the 2 at 2.7? What's a 2-7? Like a 2-dominant set. instead of a minor, make it...

Five. And then tritone sub down to be flat. Oh, it's okay, okay, okay. No, keep this in here. I want people to know. I'm rusty. I honestly don't really even know how to write music down anymore. Wow.

On a recent TikTok video, I wrote the actual notes. Of a song like A, B, C, A. And someone was like, you did it wrong. And someone was like, why didn't you just write the... What is it even called? Not manuscript. The sheet music? The sheet music.

Why didn't she just write the sheet music down? And I'm so cap. I was like, oh, well, not everyone understands that. So I actually don't know how to write it anymore. I'm slow in transcribing. All right, let's do. So your Professor Puth series, you talk about how it's essential to have many different keyboards because they each have their own different voices.

All right. Scenario. You're on a desert island. There is a generator that can only power a Fender Twin Reaver, amp. Okay. And you can choose either a Rhodes piano, a Whirlitzer or a CP70, which one and why? Rhodes. Rhodes. Roads

77. Let's hear the sounds. Those are roads. Can we hear the Whirley? The Worley would be... It's very Bill Withers kind of lean on. And the CP? You play totally different stuff just by the sound of the piano, and you've chosen the Rhodes defend your decision. It just blends

with everything better than anything. You could I just like there's a song called Half Time by Amy Winehouse yeah simple sweet guitars up on by the base you can't do that with simple sweet guitars

it's just and that's because that's that kind of song but like just the roads that's your sound there's something the width of it the warmth of it just can it's kind of like water it's like you can it goes with everything It's like a blue sky, if that makes sense. Because sometimes you want a cloudy sky.

Sometimes you want your autumn vibe. This is like your, that's your autumn vibe. But like, this is like on Keisha Cole records. This is on Isley Brother records. This is on my records. This is on everybody. Like, that's New York weather for you right there. This is New York in October.

Where we are, right? I told you. you. Someone's on the phone. I told you. No, no muddy shoes in the brownstone. All right, Puth the musical coming up on Broadway. This storied New York Jazz Club is where you recently played a small set of intimate shows. Yeah, that was very hard. Sorry, this is a Jeopardy question. Oh, what is blue note? What is a blue note? What is a blue note? Um, I don't know. I'm not an aesthetic, so I don't really know what colors are. Like that, the, the pink pop sign there, like doesn't sound like a C major chord to me.

It's a blue note to me is just a place. Oftentimes in the blues scale, guitarist especially, we'll talk about the sort of the note in between the major third and the minor third as the blue note, which we can't do on the piano. See, when I hear major third, I have to, like, think, like, the major third. But, like, I know what it is.

It's just, like, it's not as instantaneous as, like, calling out the chord, which is so weird for me. Out of all of the venues that you could have played at, You could have played giant arenas. You chose the blue note. Small jazz club. How come?

Because I probably won't have a chance to do it ever again. And for a small group of people to remember what they heard, like it just won't translate in an arena. Arenas are amazing, and I'm super happy that we can play those too. But I wanted people to have a very intimate experience, and you get that by, you know, hitting the peasant. and then accidentally hitting someone's ngroni. At the same time, like, you can, like, smell the food being made.

Like, the kitchen staff is running in between. The servers are taking everyone's orders. It's like you... I needed that for... I just heard you. Found the one you been looking. You've been looking for. I wish I would have known that wasn't me.

This is the arena. This is the arena version of we don't talk me. This is the blue note version. Oh, jumping down to the roads. Yeah, down to the roads. It just reminded me the sound matched the venue. Story Jazz Institution. So many of the best players have played there.

Oh, and I've never been. Can you believe that? Whoa. I'd never been. Transformative. Okay. What is the gruvious song in an odd meter? Oh.

Too high. Too high. It's on the Stevie Wonder. I know how to play the songs. I don't know. The names of... Too High. Is it called Too High?

Is this a weird meter? Not really. No, this isn't a weird meter. I mean, like, 15 Step by Radiohead. I don't know it. I don't listen to a lot of radio head. That's a fun one. Educate me.

This track. 15 steps. Pretty gritty. This is amazing. I've never heard this. Yeah, that's off of, in rainbows. I don't literally listen to a lot of music with... I'm listening to Metallica records in my head.

Oh, fun. For whom the bell tolls. Dun, dun, jun, jun, jun, that's four-four timing, too. Wow, I guess I'm not really turned on by weird. Maybe tool, if we want to stick in the metal world? I don't know that. What's that? Oh, like, Lateralis. This is probably elementary school on this record.

I feel like I'm turning on Tony Hawk Pro Skater. All right, let's go. What about Blind by Corn? Do they, like, it starts, they have like a break. Jun, jun, jun, jun, jun, jun, and that he's, they just come back into it. The 808. There's an 808. You would never expect this record to have an 808 in it.

A lot of metal records and new metal records had 808s in them. Huh? The drums. It comes right after this. That's okay. I love the drum sound on that record. That's fun. It sounds like they just put up one microphone and it's recorded in a garage or something.

What is formant shifting? and can you demonstrate it without the use of technology? Formant shifting. Like if my voice was like this and you hear the overtones and I can't do it as well but sometimes there's an overtone that like someone else could do it way better

but there's an overtone that happens and like it stereizes it a little bit. Like the shifting of the vowel placement. Yeah. It actually, sometimes, when I'm like correcting a note that I really didn't hit, but I really liked the performance, if I'm supposed to be here and I'm here and I'm in the melodyne and I drag it up to here, sometimes it'll make it sound a little so I have to go to the foreman told him that's the best way I can describe it.

In your Professor Puth series, you talk about tape machine sweetening in the song. Everybody wants to rule the world. Listen to this song. Everybody Why does everybody wants to rule the world make you feel inspired and emotional? It's because the song is pitched up with a tape machine. Back in the day, they call this sweetening the audio. You might be thinking to yourself right now, Charlie, why do people do this?

I will tell you, viewer, when you speed music or tones up and down, it's scientifically proven to make you feel different emotionally. This is the tone all music is basically tuned to. But when you pitch it higher, it brings you to the love frequency. Uh, it was pitched up. You say they was scientifically proven to make you feel differently emotionally that the frequency 528 is the love frequency This idea has been wildly debunked by musicians like Ben Jordan is the love frequency totally baloney What's going on man? I don't know it's whatever feels good. It's not that serious

It's just music. It's like we're so the the world's serious enough. We're just here to have a good time and to have a three minute four minute five minute break I just looked it up that's what it said that it was I'm just trying to inspire people to make music Who's one of the most overlooked figures of pop history and why? One of the most overlooked figures in pop, Rod Temperton, because Heat Wave, obviously an R&B group, but he brought, I believe he was like the godfather with Quincy of bringing R&B into pop, sneaking R&B into pop,

George Benson, just give me the night. That's a pop record, but with a completely different. Like a B section. Like you listen to You put a move on my heart by Tamia. I think that's how it starts. Those are such rod chords.

I get little chills. Oh, it's so lovely. And all you do is dial by heat wave. Like a minute in. The same key is that you put a move on my heart record, written by the same guy, R&B records, but then you listen to Thriller, which is a pop album, and it's all those same chords,

but disguised as pop music. So I think he's really underappreciated. Okay, final question for you. You're going through changes. You're going to be a dad. Can you sing any major key children's song in a minor key? Oh. You are my sunshine

My only sunshine Sounds like fiddler on the roof You make me happy When skies are gray But those are good No, no, no, no Do Please don't tape

You are my sunshine My only sunshine You make me happy When skies are gray But those are good exercises to do When you're stuck on writing those, like, sing songs and minor keys. I'll do that sometimes to just re-inspire the brain.

I feel like you have overwhelmingly passed your qualifying exam. You are now qualified to move on to the next stage of professorship, which is submitting your dissertation. The due date is going to be March 6th. You can submit whatever is clever back to our committee. Not busy at all. But I would submit something. My lesson would be don't overthink things.

I mean, you don't have to, like, know all the technical stuff. Because people don't know all the technical stuff when they're listening to music. They just want to feel something. They want a breather from the exhausting thing that is life. We're making fantasies for people. They want to feel the changes. They want to feel the changes. And that's a good way to bookend at all.

Thank you, Charlie. It's been a pleasure. They appreciate it. Thank you, thank you. Switch on Pop is produced by Raina Cruz, edited by Alyssa Sillop, engineer by Brandon Farland, illustrations by Iris Gottlieb, theme music by Jossi Adams and Zach Tenario of Arch Iris. Remember of the Vox Media Podcast Network, production of Vulture, which is part of New York Magazine.

You can subscribe at NYMag.com slash pod. Now, keen listeners who paid attention to last week's credits heard that we were going to go tit for tat this week. I think we kind of did, but you might have been expecting something else. I promise you that tit for tat episode coming up real soon. We'll be back again next week. Until then, thanks for listening.