Switched on Pop - Carly Rae Jepsen’s pop pedagogy

Episode Date: September 29, 2026

Five years after her first appearance on Switched on Pop, Carly Rae Jepsen returns to the podcast to talk all things Day and Night, her latest album. Born out of Swedish disco, big emotion, and substantive life change – including becoming a wife and a mother – the double album is a tour through the organic and the synthetic, both in equal measure. For Charlie and Nate, this is a full circle moment, and along with discussing the record, the two talk to Jepsen about the origins of the show, her songwriting process, and what it means to be such an important champion of pop music. CREDITS  Reanna Cruz: Producer  Iris Gottlieb: Illustrator  Charlie Harding: Host, Executive Producer  Dion Lee: Art Director  Brandon McFarland: Audio Engineer  Nick Ripps: Video Editor  Nate Sloan: Host  Lissa Soep: Editor  Zach Tenorio & Jocie Adams: Theme Composers  Switched On Pop is a co-production of Vox Media Podcast Network, Vulture, and Rock Ridge Productions. Links: ⁠⁠Newsletter⁠⁠  Songs discussed: Carly Rae Jepsen, “After All” Carly Rae Jepsen, “Versailles” Carly Rae Jepsen, “Don’t Leave Me on the Dance Floor” Carly Rae Jepsen, “Near or Far” Carly Rae Jepsen, “Motivation” Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Sonos, love the sound, feel the system. Megan Rapino here, this week on Why Are You Like This? I am talking with comedian Amber Ruffin. We dig into all the twists and the turns of her journey from losing the White House correspondence dinner and missing out on SNL to becoming a writer for Seth Myers and getting her own Peacock TV show. Plus, I'm giving you a behind-the-curtain look on Rebecca Hunt's documentary about me.

Check out the latest episode of Why Are You Like This, wherever you get podcasts, and on YouTube. Welcome to Switched on Pop. I'm songwriter Charlie Harding. And I'm musicologist Nate Sloan. And we are so delighted, Carly, that you're joining us today. Ah, my pleasure to be here. Thank you so much for having me. The last we checked in was 2020, about dedicated Side B. It was over Zoom.

So we're really delighted to be checking with you five years later, since we last spoke. Wow. Carly, you're here with your first double album day and night. And so the first question we want to ask you is, what attracts you to this idea of a double album? You know, it's a great question. I really wanted to play with two different musical lanes.

And I actually was just having a conversation with my glam team about this, like two seconds ago, about the difference between the type of music you listen to and the type of music you want to perform. I think I really wanted the day album to be the type of music that I listened to and the night album to be something that I could enjoy live that has a bit more energy. But yeah, I found myself writing in two different directions. It wasn't an intentional plan when I started. And something about the organic, fokey, psychedelic influence of day was really exciting to me.

I wanted to like live and bask in that dreamy world. And then I also found myself really kind of driven by some abid. influences. Like, I really wanted to make something that felt like your inhibitions were lost and you could really get up and kind of feel the music and dance. So this was a way to sort of have my cake and eat it too. Day and night, get to do it all. So you open with after all. Yeah. It's a very live song, live, but it's quiet. It's very sensual. You're singing at almost like a whisper level. What makes it a good day song and why did you want to start there? It's a simple reason that I choose. the first song for the album, which I think is a really important selection of what,

how do you sort of, you know, begin the invitation, so to speak, to like a world you've created. And after all was the clear choice for me because it was the song that I would play for friends when I was trying to explain to them what I was making. I was like, I don't really know, but it's something like this. And I feel like that's a good token of a clue of like, okay, we should start there. I loved thematically, too, that after all represented something that I hadn't quite, like, tapped into before, which was romanticizing kind of domestic. list, like kind of getting excited about the thrill of something that feels safe, which those two words, like safety and thrilling, don't often get combined. But I was, I was quite delighted that what I was experiencing in real life was the combination of those two things, something that felt really grounded and, like, the biggest adventure I'd ever taken on all at the same time.

I feel like it's like one of the most under explored parts of the love song categories. Yes, right? It's usually like forbidden and bad or, like, dangerous and going to hurt you. And I was like, well. Or domestic lists often. and just get saved for country music, which we of course love, but it doesn't get enough place in the world of pop music. I was just as surprised to be writing it and experience in it than anything, too. So it was a really fun, I don't know, it felt like a different flavor than I've ever played with before. Something cool happens in the chorus of the song. Everything drops out and it's just your voice.

do you remember finding that musical choice and like what inspired you? Well, I have to give credit words due. Kyle Shear is a producer on this and Nate Seifert was my collaborator. This duo or our little threesome is something I really value in terms of just, I don't know, like little spaces of creative waves I've caught with people.

And this team, we've been working together for a while and I think this is one of the songs where you kind of don't know how you made it really. You kind of are all doing your thing and you're talking and you're playing and you're dancing and then you go for lunch and you come back and by the end of the day you have something you don't really know how it happened. I think that's the magic of songwriting too is sometimes it does feel really effortless and after all was one of those things where I think it was as simple as I mean I can't speak for crowd but I feel like he might have just like muted it temporarily and we all got kind of excited about the shock of just the vocals and then lo and behold we were all

like singing and chanting and we made a choir of like eight of us even though it was just the and like, and really enjoyed the idea that this was a celebration. This was the intro to a song. It wanted it to not be like hit you over the head loud, but like a soft, subtle celebration. Yeah. I know that you're mentally prolific. You write a lot. I do write a lot.

Yes. Are there things that you wanted to do to make the songwriting process fresh or different, something that you wanted to bring into it in a new way? Absolutely. I love that question. I can tell that you are a songwriter because I feel like maybe having explored pop in different ways before with different projects. My intentions here in a not so loud way, but something that I knew I was bringing into the room was less of an idea of what it needed to be. I was almost

attracted to the freedom of discovery, of curiosity, of knowing that we know how to make pop music, you know the formula. Now looking at the ingredients of what attracts me and what I'm excited about, how do we let go of all those rules, the structure, the game of it, and kind of let inspiration take over. That was something was really important to me. So a lot of the times, instead of coming in with a hook of like, here's the concept, let's go here, you know, it's beach house and it's going to be about bad dating.

It wasn't like that. It was like, this is free form writing in a way where you kind of just let the melody find the words for you and then you make sense of it a little bit later. And I think a lot of the way that I approached this album was with that kind of playful spirit, I think. I think there is something that is a great introduction,

as you said, the first song matters. It's the thing you wanted to, you've been introducing your friends to it to the album through the song. And the first time that we hear a chorus, it's you all by yourself. It's really raw in that way. Knock the door. Stop the operation. I'll be yours in a moment's an elephant. Even if that was maybe a deliberate production choice after the fact, I think it sort of announces that freeform spirit that you're talking about. It's a song that I think when I look back on, we were just talking about, you know, how to offer something new to. And when I have written so many songs, I'm always looking for what it is that feels fresh and still feels authentic. Like, I don't necessarily want to

go and all of a sudden make a country album that I've never really done before. But I don't mind playing with some influences like a banjo here and there and bringing it into my world. And so I think after all was a good example of something I hadn't really done before. I'm really sung in that register before or whisper sung in that way. And I wanted to really really, really, really, allow domestic bliss to still feel sexy and still feel, like I said, that it kind of erotic and exciting in its own way. And for me, it felt like all of these things to entertain a forever with somebody who was going to be the one, the one. Yeah. Speaking of sometimes banjo, Nate, you are sometimes banjo player. Yes. Hey. Hearing the words banjo and erotic so close together

in a sentence was like, I was like, whoa, I got to pour some cold water on me. Yeah, I'm actually reminded of the first time our podcast ever got like picked up by other news outlets was when we interviewed you back in 2020 and you told us that you had written over 200 songs, I think, for dedicated. And then all of a sudden we released the episode and then, you know, all these different news outlets were like, Carly Ray said she wrote over 200 songs. We're like, wow, I think that might have been our first scoop ever as a podcast. So it's cool to hear your new sort of free form, like this freeform approach you've described. And maybe we can talk about how that played out in the writing of the track, Versailles.

And maybe we can start with that central metaphor, image, Versailles, Marie Antoinette. I want to see it in the night time. We'll go online just to feel, just to feel something. And then one is I hate for the people with Mary Antoin at the bottom, and he naked through the gardens. What inspired that imagery? Well, part of the free-form writing is, I think this, I'm going to sound kind of hippish when I say this,

but the sort of energy of being very open, I think, in your life, to conversations, to allow inspiration to kind of come to you and to hear it when it does. And so I think it's just sort of the way you walk through your life has to be a little bit more observant. and playful, I guess. I found myself the night before we wrote that song, Versailles, staying at the ground hotel in Sweden and Stockholm where I stay. And I literally was just watching whatever was on TV that night because I'd ordered room service and it was late and I couldn't sleep because of jet leg.

And lo and behold, Sophia Coppola's version of Mary Antoinette was on. And I was thinking, you know, the history of this actually is quite dark. But the concept that she's showing in this video or in this movie version of it where it's all about indulgence and pleasure, I was about to go and embark on a month-long holiday with my partner. And I was really interested in what slowing down an indulgence would be like for me. So I went to work the next day, skipping with this sort of idea of Versailles being the metaphor for like the ultimate pleasure, the ultimate sort of ecstasy. And I was talking to my collaborators about this idea, and that's how the song was born. And again, it's one of those things where you're like, well, then how did it start? It's just everyone was, I feel like Marcus was playing that crazy piano loop, and it just brought in some energy.

And we got a little excited about the breaking of the rules idea of like, what if the chorus slowed down? How do you keep the energy when you slow something down? And I think any time we crossed a bridge with any of my collaborative teams of, are we allowed to do that? The answer was always like an exhilarating like, yes. Yes, in fact, we must if we're asking the question. We got to go there, you know? Charlie and I heard the chorus of the song. We were like, what just happened?

We have that kind of eerie piano groove at the start in the verse. And then when we get to the chorus, there's this total switchup. It blew us away. Was that moment something intentional or something instinctual to switch up the chorus like that? I feel like it happened very organically. But I think I'm in the room with like, like-minded collaborators who are also, we've had some intimacy in terms of how long we've known each other. We know what each other's capable of. We know, you know, our weak spots maybe even of like what somebody else might be.

Like, I trust you here. I trust this person for that and that person for the other thing. And I think when you get to a place where you've had a long-term relationship and you've been in the game for a hot minute, there's a little bit less. concern about what patterns you should follow versus trusting your instincts, I guess. Yeah. And it's just music at the end of the day. So you can't get it that wrong. It's just going to be something that you that you either enjoy or you don't. And all I could say in the room is that we were really enjoying the rebellion of being like, we're going to do the opposite of

what you're supposed to do. And we're going to slow things down here and make the challenge would be how do we keep the energy still kind of intense in that moment. I want to talk about another day track on the album. Yeah. On Wires. Your music overwhelmingly first hits me with just like ecstatic joy. But also buried in these songs, there's often like a lot of gray area emotional contradiction. So on Wires, we have really big themes.

Desire is there, but the world is also on fire. Would you tell us about that and bring these together? I've been called up for really looking at, and I didn't know. this about myself, but I can see it when I look back at lyrics or the patterns of some of the ways that I write music. But I think when I feel excited about somebody romantically, I'm always looking to, like, seclude them. I'm always just looking to be like, you, me, and an oasis away from everything feels like the next step for me. And I don't know why that is, but it tracks with me for sure. There's a lyric in Patience's Power of Passions where I say something along the, like,

we get busy thinking that the world is our creation. And the, idea that when you're with your lover, you kind of are making your own little idea of how you move through the world. And it can be challenging and hard and painful. But together, we can kind of make a little oasis around that. And I think that's a craving that I have when things get tough. It's interesting with OnWires because that song is so about desire and so about just the very passionate, like, how do I get you away from this bar so we can go home immediately, which is a little like, oh, gosh. But then we shot the video when I was like six months pregnant and there was this confusion of like, well, how do we make that fly now that I have a baby hidden down here? And so

it was a tricky thing to navigate. But we're like, okay, well, the video itself will now become about something a bit more complex. Like, how does the desire turn into a deeper meaning in terms of what I want from my life outside of the music business, a balance of, you know, a personal life. What a concept. And so it was really fun to play with the visual being this like microphone cable tug of war of like being inside of the back room stage. And versus out in the world again and like ultimately like winning that battle. I was really stunned by the, I'm not sure if it's a sample or not, but there's this loop that almost sounds like children singing. Playing at a park. Yeah. And they're saying the world is on fire.

It's a really surprising and arresting moment. And I'm curious what inspired that decision. I think it's fun to play with a certain level of, this is going to sound crazy, but like creepy, a little bit. Like, I like a little creepy in fashion. I love a little creepy in music, too, when it's like the right amount where it just makes a little shiver go down your back. I don't know why how exactly Kyle found that moment, but I remember when we heard it, we all like, ooh, it's giving you a little eerie on your toes, like the hairs on your skin kind of stand up a little bit. it and I liked entering the song that way. Okay, so this is another day song. How did you know when you're in day song world?

It was a lot about the instrumentation. So anything that had a bit more of an organic leaning, like, production was day to me. And I think actually, besides one of the ones that could have gone in both ways, because we play with synth in there, too. Usually if it's more synth-based, it's going to be in the nighttime. But I didn't want, like, the day to be sunshiny and happy and the night to be, like, dark and mysterious. I wanted the complexities of both to have dimensions.

And so the day I wanted there to be like some high energy songs and some low kind of folkier things. And the night, same thing. I didn't want it to be all like an 11 out of 10. I wanted there to be some like low moments that made you kind of sit in your feelings. Because I don't know about you, but for nighttime, it's sometimes my favorite time to really listen to music. Not just like dance and like lose myself, but like really like go there and be in my feelings. Especially as I get older, I feel like a lot of my dance parties are like me alone at home like by myself. just like letting loose or like sitting in the song.

And I really wanted to offer up a body of work in a way that I would listen to it as well. Yeah, I mean, it makes sense. Like when we start the album, for me, the way I experienced it was like it felt like 5am after the dance party. Hey. It's like the sun is coming up, but the dance party hasn't quite ended because it is a very, despite being sort of whispered and quiet, maybe we've blown out our voice from yelling all night at the party. it still has a sort of house-driven beat once we really get into the song

and so it does feel like almost like a 24-hour cycle what I'm experiencing but maybe we can shift into the night song so night more synthesizers when we get to night things you get maybe a little bit moodyer

a little intensify yeah so could we go to the single Don't Leave Me on the dance floor how did this song come together well I as you know I traveled to Sweden a lot for the song writing and I had been there and that is the land of Abba. So I think I was like, by the Abba Hotel and,

you know, Abu's on the brain, let's just put it that way. And then I went to London to meet my partner for the beginning of what was going to be our holiday and I saw Abba voyage, which I didn't think I was going to like because I was like the concept. I'm like, they're not even there. Like, I don't know. But then I went and I was so wrong. It was just the best time ever and I recommended highly. And I came home being like, God damn, Abba, like such tight, delicious melodies and hooks and obviously everybody already knows that but I just like had spent a night with it and I was very affected and I knew I was going to have to do something with that energy so when I came home I had some sessions booked with CJ and Arthur and they were just the right people to say

I've got a newfound love affair with Abba right now and when I fall in love with something from the past I like live there for a while like I've been on an earth wind and fire like kick like I will like go and my poor son has heard only that since he's been born and I mean it's great he's having a great time. But I think that I was in my Abba place. And so we we basically spent five days, if not a week, just kind of asking ourselves the question of like with the synth and the music that we have today, the production and kind of like, you know, developments. What would Abadu? Like, how could we play with the combination of making something fresh with that? So it was really like a nod and a bow down to them. I still like cannot believe that the boys were down. And in fact,

they were, they were more than down. So I don't leave the dance before I think was born. on like day four of that of that little workshop. Well, it's helpful. You've come from Aba. You're hanging out in Sweden. Yeah. I'm sure it's just kind of like you're just absorbing these things. But are there certain ways you feel like you are modulating your writing to evoke that feeling in that place?

Well, I knew very much that I didn't want the whole night album to be Abba. I was excited about a flavor or two playing with that. But if anything, I was more excited about the night side being a little bit less like a story song and a bit more of an experience. song. I even wrote the word experience on my little whiteboard. Experiences, stories, day, night. You know, I wanted to feel like you're involved in, like, the sweaty club

or a hot bubble bath or whatever it is. I just wanted to, or that room in the museum where it's, like, all white and there's weird birds chirping, and you're like, what's going on? Like, I wanted that feeling for the night. I know. I would get quite dirty about it. But I did feel like, you know, some of the more experimental songs, like, near or far.

That was sort of that word, just kind of like a journey that were going on. And that excited me. I just, I was really, and I think it excited the team members that I was playing with in collaborators, too. It's just like, I don't know, following a feeling without being sure where you're going, I guess. I feel like we can move to one of the most kind of pulsing dance floor ready tracks on the album, motivation. This is another one of these fun juxtapositions that you've been crafting over the course of the album because it's got this four on the floor beat. It's got this 808 bass drum. And it's a song about sort of embracing family and celebrating family. So it's like another one of

these, the two things that you might not expect to go together. But when you listen to it, you're like, oh, this is a fresh take and a new musical perspective that I hadn't necessarily heard. So how did you like embrace those contradictions in the writing process? I began that song with my husband, Cole. We were at our home studio. I think the beginning of like the little pattern of like the la da leaves in the verse was actually when I was like home for Christmas and I was like actually walking on crunchy leaves. And this is how I like move through my life is I'll have an idea and I'll voice noted. and then like bank it for later, so to speak.

And then we were home later and I was going to sound crazy. I was listening to like some of the Beyonce album and I was excited about like some like more like hyper, like quicker. I don't know. Oh, we're talking about renaissance? Yeah, like a lemonade. Like I was like excited about like something hyper. And at the same time I'd been spending a lot of time with my family and kind of seeing them in different scenarios, whether it was like a wedding floor, dance party or just. like a Christmas celebration.

And I have, I think especially in my field, I have put in a ton of work to stay connected to my family over the years. And it's like relationships that get better and better as they go. But it's like anybody's family. It's complex. It's complicated. It's hard work sometimes. You're naming all of it. You give me the motivation and you also box me in and also.

And there's so much better. But at the same time, it's a celebration of like I feel like what I really have won in life as I have a family who cares and loves each other. deeply. And if we get it wrong, we try to make up for it and figure it out together. And I felt excited about having a family anthem that was a little bit just less like on the nose perfect. Like, it's a family and it's great. And it's like, that's not real life. It's a family and it's complicated and it's still great. But it's a family and it's beautiful for the fact that it's complex and there's a lot of different personalities that are all mixed together in that. And so yeah, I spoke to my husband about that idea. And I think because he's, he just, you know,

has an inside scoop to all of it in a different way, being my partner. It was the perfect collaborator to kind of go there with. And we wanted to also celebrate the fact that as this was all happening, we were pregnant and expecting, or I was pregnant and expecting our child. And it was just a really kind of cool time to be reflecting on it all. Wow. Yeah. There's so much happening here.

One of the things I'm curious about is the song begins with this group of unfamiliar voices. Who are we hearing? That's just me with like a vocoder pitching my voice down. Yeah. It's very compelling. Thank you. And then there's a child's voice at the end of the song. That's my niece, Ivy.

I had a late-night idea that it would be kind of cool to nod to the future with the song. And my son was not yet born. And I called my sister. I was like, is there any way we can get Ivy just like give me whatever message she wants? I might like try to like bleed it. into this family song I'm creating and I'll like run it by you at the end to make sure you're cool and she was like sure and Ivy just got on the phone and she was like hi Auntie Carly I just want to say peekaboo. And I was like perfect. That's how we're going to end the song. It's great.

And there's a little trinkle twinkle in there as well. Yeah, yeah. She just did whatever she did and me and Cole were like this is adorable and delightful and I feel like it's a nice little hopeful not at the end because I do think we're in the middle right now of kind of creating the beginning of our own sort of you know family that will continue on and it's just nice to think about all the things that came before and what you want to pass on to the next generation. There's so much inspiration happening. I mean, to be writing songs about the people that we love most and dedicate things to them that are honest and raw, which a song requires, you know, a song that is not honest.

You can tell. Yeah, you can tell. And especially the family will know, right? You play it for the like, that doesn't represent what's going on. Luckily, my family's all based that song so much, which is great. That's so special. Oh, my gosh. You could have dance parties with your family, with your family, with your,

Your song? My mother did try to play it at our wedding, and I was like, there will be none of my music at the wedding. I had to like call the wedding planner, and I was like, so this woman, she looks like me. She's my mom. She's going to try to play something. Don't let her. You have one job here. Support for the show comes from Sonos.

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And we use the Sonos play speakers for music around the house. We can control exactly what you hear in different rooms. It's amazing fidelity. And they're kind of these small. sleek speakers that you can just kind of fit anywhere. It's also really easy to connect Sonos to any music player and just play music with the press of a button. I even have my turntable hooked up to my Sonos system so we can listen to records. It's so seamless and easy and most importantly, the sound quality is incredible. So visit sonos.com and build your system. Sonos. Love the sound,

feel the system. So like any good millennial, I have a love-hate relationship with Gen Z. It's the phenomenon rattling millennials. They just look at you. They want something bigger themselves. Lifestyles are priority. Motivation is being inspired.

But regardless of how you feel about Gen Z, it's undeniable that they're changing national politics. Generation Z is increasingly showing less loyalty to traditional political parties, many now more likely to identify as independent. So what is going on with the kids? I think the biggest misconception about Gen Z's politics right now is that all of a sudden they're all socialist.

That is just not the case. They are embracing candidates who are offering new bold ideas in the absence of those ideas from establishment Democrats. This week on America, actually, Gen Z researcher Rachel Jambaza joins us to separate Gen Z fact versus fiction. It's not rocket science. And this is, you know, I keep saying like, Young voters aren't that complicated after all.

It's pretty simple. Catch us every Saturday on YouTube or wherever you get your podcast. I'm Phoebe Judge. And for more than a decade, I've hosted the podcast criminal, telling stories about people who've done wrong, been wronged, or gotten caught somewhere in the middle. But while I was starting one of the very first true crime podcasts out there, I was also taking phone calls from my sister, from prison.

This fall, I'm going on tour. and I'm telling a story I've never told before, my own. Get tickets at thisiscriminal.com slash live. You've been such an inspiration to so many. You have been deeply inspirational to us 12 years ago when we started making this podcast. And it all started with, you know, Nate was at the time, you were still a student of musicology, right?

I was a PhD student in historical musicology, indeed. And so, you know, it began with a long drive that we were on down, I think, Highway 1 in California. And he was playing me, call me maybe, because that was sort of like the song of the moment,

this was 2012. Yeah. And he was like, let me tell you about kind of what you were saying about Abba. Yeah. Like, what's happening in these chords

are brilliant. Yeah. And what's happening in these lyrics is like the most uncomfortable, difficult thing that's ever happened in your entire life. And it's personified through these chords,

which are sort of evasively not ever landing in a comfortable place. Wow. And I was like, wow, this is a very powerful song. That has since turned into, you know, the first chapter of a book. It turned into many episodes of the podcasts. I know Nate delivers that lecture to many of his students.

I deliver that lecture to many of my students. I'm curious how it feels, you know, and beyond even just us, I think about, you know, online, the amount of discourse that has been inspired by your work. Popheads is like the big subreddit. Three million people who are talking about pop music, like, with just such fervor and passion. And you were like a real patron saint to them. I know that you were referenced on one of the first episodes of Vos Cultures. Drista's, one of the great culture podcasts.

How does it feel to know that people are like really digging in and analyzing your work at that level? Oh, my gosh. It's hard to even take it in, to be honest. But I think more than anything, I'm really just happy that pop is getting taken seriously as a genre and that people are interested in seeing its intelligence. Because I think that pop can be thought of as like, you know, an easy. I mean, it's supposed to be fun. And it's supposed to be immediate, but it also can be complex and all these other things. And I definitely think is a love, hate genre for a lot of people, including myself.

And that's sort of why I was excited about exploring it for, like, my life's work, because I really have an opinion about it. And I really was excited to carve out sort of my lane of pop music. And it's just really fun over the years to get to expand that lane more and more and more. I think that's why pop is just forever going to be a life passion of mine. is that it isn't just one thing. And I'm learning with day and night, for example, that I can grow with it and I can mature with it and I can figure out different ways to still tell stories

through pop music. And my first intro to pop music is The Spice Girl. So it had like a very specific idea of what pop was, but it's been really cool to take that initial sort of invite and turn it into my own thing over the years. Yeah. Yeah, I think it's so, impressive to be so committed to that sound and pursuing it and finding every facet of it that you can

explore. Thank you. And I'm sure there were moments when it was discouraging. I mean, we had a very memorable kerfuffle when we did this interview with a magazine called Courts and we talked, we did our analysis of Call Me Maybe and they gave it a headline that said why Carly Ray Jepson is as musically complex as Mozart or something like that. But as soon as they ran that headline, all of these people, mainly like older... Mainly Mozart fans. And maybe the world. Came out and they're like, how could you compare, you know, a pop artist to Mozart?

And we were like, wait, wait, wait, Mozart was a pop artist. Like his concerts were like pop shows. He was the original, you know, boy band. Like, you don't get it. But it was such a moment for us, we were like, oh, there's kind of. of people who still have all these biases about pop music. And it was a really interesting reminder of that. And yet you've like, despite any controversies, you've like stayed so committed to that sound. I think it's really remarkable. I don't know. I don't take it that seriously.

And yet I take it so seriously that I've dedicated my life to it. It's both things at once. I'm going to go out and say that I am nothing compared to Mozart. And I know that. Just to be clear, the best comment on this, there was a long thread. And one of them was like, how dare you compare Carly to Mozart? That is completely unfair. She is so much better. Oh, my gosh. No, no.

No, but I feel the cool thing about music that I've always felt is there's, there doesn't even have to be compared. It's such different things. It's not a competition. Yeah, and there's room for all of it, which is so lovely. I feel like that is what's exciting. But I think what I love about my job is I'll never ever have learned all. of it. It's just like a constant place where you go and you try to get better and every experience you can be a sponge to. Every session, even if you don't have a song, I get called out for

overwriting a lot. And a big part of the reason that I go to these sessions, even if I already have an album, is you just don't know that there's something else around the corner and that might be a song that beats what you have or it might be a lesson. It might be in with different people that you don't know and some sort of thing comes to you or the way that they approach the song is a different way than you would approach the song and in that kind of almost like sparring that's happening, you're learning something or you discover that you were wrong. I feel like that's the joy of, you know, anything that you're passionate about is you never quite master it.

You're always just a student and I feel like that's sort of where I live. I've learned the most from the worst songwriting sessions that I've done in my life. Right. Because I have to learn how to be comfortable. in my very awkward body when things are just not going well and communication is breaking down. It's like I have to learn to be a different kind of person. It's very, it's always instructive to me. And collaboration is interesting because there's a thin line between like a really beautiful collaboration and a really tricky compromise where no one's quite happy and we've all been

very polite to make something that's watered down in all directions. I think more than anything, it's really important who you collaborate with, that you already are like minded or that you already like know that you pair each other well and you're okay with that kind of, I don't know, the friction that that causes almost in the room. And to be able to like, I don't know, go in there and enjoy whatever sparky energy is existing there or if it's a very fluid one, enjoy that as well. But I think it's nice to challenge yourself with both things. You know, speaking for myself, I could imagine when you are part of this larger discourse and, you know, in some ways that it may be positive and affirming. But maybe there's also a need to kind of shut off the part of you that

will think about how your release will be received by people. Totally. Because otherwise, maybe it'll sort of cloud the process. So I'm curious if you have strategies for doing that or if it's just like when it's album writing time, you just enter that space and kind of block it out. Like, yeah, is that have to do consciously? Yeah, I guess so. I think maybe just from my experience of like living through, you know, this career for a number of years, there's things that I know that work for me and there's things that I know I find challenging.

And so it wasn't really like, here's the strategy. It just kind of got formed over the years. And I think where I've landed is a place where when I'm creating the art, I think about things like how will this feel to perform in a show? what will this, I feel like that really informed why I need the day as well as night. Because I was like, well, this is fun. But I also want to make everyone sweat, you know, and I want to do both of those things. So how do I do both of those things?

So I'm not thinking about its connection to people, but I'm not thinking about, I'm trying not to think about how will it be perceived and will they like it versus how will we get to digest this together sort of thing. And I do have a lot of, I think as I've gotten further along in this, I've. I would say with day and night, more so than any other project, I didn't do the, like, trial by committee listening team. Like, I used to have my band and my A&R and my label and my family and anyone who would, like, grant me their ears. And I'd be like, here's a box of, like, God, I'm so sorry, like 67 songs that I've narrowed down from 200. Can you tell me what your top 20 is when you have time? And then I would take all of these, like, these things and they'd have, like, weird charts and people would write them differently because I didn't give. So, like, five stars versus three hearts.

And I'm like, what does that mean? And by the time I was done, I would have sort of like a catalog of what everyone's favorites were. And then I would kind of do this rebellious thing where I would just pick my favorites mostly anyways. And if there was like one or two that it was on debate, I would maybe pull from the committee, so to speak. But what it did allow me, I felt like, was an understanding of how the public might review it. And then it gave me peace before it was done in a big broadcast way to be comfortable with my decisions regardless in an artist. way. This time I was like, why do I do that? That is just so painful. Like, I'm going to, I'm going to make something different. I know I want to make something different. I don't want

anyone to stop me. And I think I'll just let my fear take over if I bring in the committee this time. And so I kept my circle very insular. Like, it was very like I had my husband, my longtime guitarist Tavish, who's been in all, every show that I've played. So I knew I had that, like, He understands the audience. He understands me in a deep way. And then I had my executive producer, Kyle Shear, as like a big new element. And Tabish was also executive producer. So we were and Carlos, my A&R. And we were, it was us. It was like our little team of people. And then every once in a while I would show a song here and there. But I wasn't willing to be stopped if that makes any sense. And I really did end up lending more confidently, I think. And then the way I was writing was landing more confidently. So I think that was the different. this time round. But in terms of press or in terms of outside voices and how you're perceived, that can be crazy. I think I've taken solace in the fact that in the same week of interviews, I've had someone say contradicting things about me. Like, she overshare. She doesn't, she keeps all the secrets to herself. And you're like, well, which one is true? And you realize

that you're like, well, it's just someone's perception of you. And neither are both of these things are true. And so I have to just kind of settle with the idea that, you know, the people whose opinions really matter about me are like the people who are in my family and my circle of friends. And the rest of it, I hope that my biggest offering is my music and not like my personal life. And that's what I want to share. There's a lot of wisdom and thinking about when we're creating to be making something for the people who are most excited to receive it as opposed to, you know, for people who might be wearing a blazer and analyzing and writing about it.

You know, we all have a role as well. But the thing that has to be made, I love imagining the office. audience is going to be there. Sometimes even when I have to, I don't know, read an introduction, I picture Nate if he's not there. Because it has to be for him. It can't be for everybody. Yeah. Well, I think you just touched on something too. Sorry to go on and on about this. But I really think that I think my stepfather's at one point, you know, what a wonderful thing to have a mighty community that you know and feed them. And I feel like after emotion happened, which came from such like a very honest, almost rebellious.

I'm just going to make what I want. And then finding that there was a community that got it, it became a little less chaotic of like, how do I make everybody happy here? And a little bit more, like, how do I just, now that I've met what feels like my community, how do we have fun now together? How do we keep feeding each other?

And that felt a little less daunting and a little bit like my strategy is just, you know, make something real and find your family. I imagine part of that, you had mentioned earlier about being a student of music. I think it's one of the things that is so wonderful about working in music is that there is never an end. It's not the top of the mountain. Yeah. You can never learn everything. Because like even once you master Western classical harmony, it's like, well, no, go study like Carnotic music. Like, there's just so much to learn.

Oh, my gosh. I have a dream that I've become a very good guitar player still to the stay, but then I like keep getting these goddamn nails. Back to singing. slide guitar, I don't know. Exactly. But you're pursuing new things. You are working on a musical. Yes. Ten things I hate about you.

You're doing it with Ethan Grisca and Lena Dunham's writing the book. Yeah. Jessica Wong, Christopher Wilde, Tom Kipp, Bosner. Your songs are in here. How are you approaching writing for the stage and what are you learning from it? Oh, it is so much fun. It is very unlike this project, like day and night and musical, completely different parts of the brain. But at the same time, I think maybe a little bit of my overwriting kind of trained me to get ready for something like this because of the fact that if somebody said to me, you need to go in that room over there.

And by the end of the day, you need to give us a song. And it needs to be about this, that and that. And you need to include the word orange and cat and cigar all together and make it about trauma. I can kind of do it. It might not be a great song, but it's like a thing that I kind of love the challenge. And I'm like, I'm going to go make on that song. And this will be sort of fun to have these really hard things that we have to do. You know, it's like not a lot of space to play with.

That's really inspiring to me, actually. So it's almost like jingle writing in a weird way. It's like, I don't know, sell this emotion for this moment. I love that. I think what's really been nice is we've had time for this project to have a little bit of like, hey, can we try to make something like this for this scene? And we get to go back and massage it and rework it. and really make sure that it isn't the one-day rushed thing, but it's something that we handle with care

and that it honors the story and that it all braids and, you know, leaves together in a beautiful way. And I am surrounded by so much talent and vision. And again, when it turns out, like, when you talk about learning, I'm absorbing so much from them just like a grateful little sponge and really happy to be a part of this, like, money team.

We're debuting a new rapid fire question period where we just want to hear your, your first, you know. It's like with the songwriting we're talking about, free forms. Exactly. Yeah, okay, I'm ready. I'm ready for you. I'm getting myself to a loose place.

Oh, yeah, okay. We're going to cool down a little bit. And Charlie, you want to take turns with these? All right. All right, here we go. Our first question in the switch on pop questionnaire is, what's your favorite instrument to hear take a solo? Guitar.

Ooh, I said guitar because I thought of my father playing the acoustic guitar for me as a child and it just brings nostalgia. But when that saxophone comes on stage, it also, I reserve it for the moments in music when, like, nothing else will do and we really need to, like, go there. A song on your playlist that would surprise people. I don't know if it's surprising,

but I listen to a great deal of jazz music. Billy Holiday is probably one of the... Well, she's actually my favorite vocalist of all time, so I would say all of Billy Holiday's music, yeah. A musical practice that brings you joy that's just for you. I enjoy singing made-up children's songs to my child. I have a hit, a sleeper hit called I Want to Kiss Your Cheeks. That my husband is really tired of hearing.

The hook is, I want to kiss your feet, but they smell like cheese. And he giggles. All right, so this one comes from, I interviewed the pianist Long Long recently, And he gave me this great tip that was before a concert, he's like, what you got to do is he to eat a banana and chocolate. Oh. And I'm like, cool. I've actually been doing this before I've been doing interviews. I do it today.

It's too early in the morning. But do you have a go-to drink or snack that is essential for you to either before going out on a show or before a writing session? Well, first of all, banana and chocolate before, like performing singing or like performing like... Before he goes out playing piano is what he does. Okay, before piano. Okay, a little potassium, sure. Like, okay, chocolate, little sugar rush. Okay, I was like, that just sounds like a wild combination.

for the throat before you guys sing. Probably not a singer. Okay, okay. A little throat coat never hurts. Some honey if you're having a higher day. I mean, back in the day, I used to, like, take a little whiskey shot if I needed it to, like, because it would really, like, help with the vocal cords. But I think now I'm more of a throat coat and honey girl.

I mean, life on the road, it's not for the faint of heart. So you can sometimes go a week and be like, I haven't seen or smelt or heard of a vegetable. So we will do things, like, we'll just have, like, bag. eggs of spinach that like it sounds crazy, but we just like take like a handful and like eat that spinach. It should be like, my body needs it. The emergency spinach in case break. My body needs it.

Like we haven't seen anything green. So there'll be a couple things like that. But right beforehand, I heard once that if you have like gummy bears, it'll help sometimes too with your vocal codes. I don't know what's in there, but I like gummy bears. So I've told myself that's true. Yeah. Great.

I love that people imagine rock stars just like doing hard drugs and, you know. just taking handfuls of raw spinach. And they're just eating raw spinach and throat coat in the green room. A little ginger. Yeah. Yeah. You should see my writer. It just looks like I've been to the doctors.

Yeah. First song you learned to play. First song I learned to play on the guitar was, well, there's two. There were the two songs that I wrote, actually. That's kind of how I got into the guitar, first of all. And one was a protest song that I wrote when I was very little called They're Cutting Down the Big Choir. And the other was my first real attempt of, like, having an emotion that was about a high school crush that I had.

And it was a song called Dear You. And it was a letter I wrote to him, this mysterious man who reminded me of, like, that bad boy in the breakfast club with the earring. I'm forgetting his name. Anyways, no one talked to him. He was a big mystery. He played chess. I learned how to play chess so I could approach him. That was my big in.

And I wrote him the song called Dear You. And I remember thinking that, like, I'd see my father play the guitar around the house growing up. So I kind of knew a little bit, but I didn't really know. And I remember finding, like, the chord for D. But I didn't know it was called D. So I was like, look, this is like a W shape. And it makes the income. My dad was like, like, let me show you.

So he introduced me to, like, all the Elvis Presley, like, pop chords. And that's how I began writing. I kind of a feeling I might know the answer to this now. But is there a singer whose voice you'd like to live in for one day? I think that there's some incredible, like Phoebe Bridges has a beautiful heart. wrenching voice. I think Billy Holiday has a similar thing. They have this thing where these are like once in a generation type vocals.

But I feel like if I'm getting one day away from my own voice, I would pick a man's voice because it's just be fun to play with like a different like, I don't know, whole range. I don't know. I'm trying to think of who comes to mind. I'm going to have to get back to you. I mean, maybe like Ray Charles. That sounds great. Because he can say any one word and give you sugar. It's like Georgia and you're like, yes.

Oh, God. Carly, thank you so much. This is very delightful. Thank you so much. It was lovely to chat with you both. Thanks, everyone. That was a blast. Thank you.

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