Switched on Pop - Epik High is our gateway into Korean hip hop (with Tablo)

Episode Date: January 26, 2021

Epik High are elemental to Korean hip hop. DJ Tukutz, Mithra Jin and Tablo’s underground style boom bap beats with dexterous rapping helped bring this music from its underground roots to a global scale. On their latest release, Epik High Is Here Part I, the textures are subdued but paired with heavy drums and aggressive vocals, a contrast that matches our collective anxiety arising from the pandemic. Charlie speaks with Tablo about the creation of the album, but first first ethnomusicologist Youngdae Kim shares a short history on the development of Korean hip hop.  SONGS DISCUSSED Epik High - Rosario, Go, Fly, Map the Soul, Harajuku Days, Born Hater, Lesson Zero, Based On A True Story, Leica, Wish You Were Seo Taiji and Boys - I Know Verbal Jint - Overclass MORE Read Youngdae Kim and T.K. Park’s “A Brief History of Korean Hip-hop”  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

If you're tired of endless scrolling to figure out where to eat, same. I'm Stephanie Wu, editor-in-chief of Eater. We've just launched the new-ish and way better Eater app. It has all the restaurants we love, gives you personalized picks wherever you are, and serves up smarter search results just for you. You can find my list of the best places for martinis and fries in New York City. And save your favorite spots, share lists, follow editors, and book right in the app. the Eater app at Eaterapp.com. It's free for iOS users. Welcome to Switched on Pop. I'm

songwriter Charlie Harding. And I'm musicologist Nate Sloan. One of our New Year's resolutions was that we want to dive deeper into the world of K-pop and Korean hip-hop. And the stars aligned because today we have the opportunity to speak with Teblow, the leader of the group Epic High, who are one of the most influential and innovative groups in Korean hip-hop. Nate, are you familiar with Epic High? No, I'm not familiar with Epic High. They're like Bhutan or Beastie Boys are to hip-hop in the United States. They're elemental.

And over the last week, I have been doing this rabbit hole through their catalog, and it's stunning. Let me play you a single off their new record, Epic High is here, Part 1. This is their track for Zario. Okay, that is straight fire. Yeah, you've got your stank face on. I'm feeling lots of feelings. I mean, I'm loving the transition from like waltz time into this 4-4 hip-hop group. One, two, three, one, two, three.

And then the beat drops and it's like, that's really cool. Yeah, it's got a really aggressive beat. Tablo's flow is out of control. Totally the kind of melding of both Korean and English lyrics, but so kind of rapid fire that you don't even necessarily know when it's changing. It's, it's pretty fantastic. So we can go really deep into this music, but the reality is you and I just really don't know Korean hip hop that well. And before I go into my conversation with Tablo, I thought it would be valuable for the both of us and for listeners who aren't as clued in, this music to start off with a very cursory, high-level Korean hip-hop 101.

That tutorial would be much appreciated for a neophyte such as myself. Okay, great. So I want to share with you a conversation I had with one of the leading scholars of Korean hip-hop. Hi, my name is Young DeK Kim, music critic and ethnicologist. So Young-Dade-Kim has a PhD in Ethne Musicology from the University of Washington, where he studied K-pop, and he's published definitive texts on. Korean hip hop. I wanted to ask him about how Korean hip hop developed to understand its unique musical and cultural characteristics. But he actually started by telling his story because it kind of mirrors the development of Korean hip hop. I consider myself as someone who's been, I would say,

baptized by American culture since I used to watch this channel, which is called AFKN, American Forces Korean Network, provided for U.S. soldiers. So if you live close to a U.S. military base, you can pick up this channel on your TV antenna. From the morning show, Good Morning America, like Guiding Light, you know, the General Hospital, Johnny Carson, everything. Even before the end of military role in South Korea, this hijacked TV station was an important form of exposure to U.S. culture. And the transmission of hip-hop into Korea actually came through direct cultural exchange

similarly in the clubs near these U.S. military bases. By the 80s, there were a lot of new type of modern dance halls or nightclubs where you can casually go to any clubs to meet U.S. soldiers or foreigners to drink. And Korean dancers were particularly drawn to the music that some of the soldiers were playing. The club Moon Night was a popular place where Korean B-boys used to go and hang out with Americans and learn moves from them, to dance with them. So it is actually the kind of birthplace of Korean hip-hop and Korean B-Boy movement. The fact that American Armed Forces' radio and bases may have helped spur the development of these Korean musical styles is like one of the best justifications I've heard for the military industrial complex.

No, totally. And this is part of the story, which I hadn't really considered that there was actually real exchange of music. dance and so on. And what's happening in these clubs really reinforces the B-Boy dance component of hip-hop over the other elements of the culture, rapping turntabism, graffiti. And the emphasis on dance really crafted the sound of early Korean hip-hop. The fun side of hip-hop was more important. They would play any type of music they would dance to. You know, it could be a disco. It could be Herbie Hancock's rocket. It could be Michael Jackson's music. It could be run the is UB.I. Lin. So rather than listening to Public Enemy or NWA, more socially, you know,

conscious hip-hop, upbeat, danceable music, that's how they got into the New Jack Swing movement and take it as a first form of Korean hip-hop. But it is actually Koreanized American hip-hop. You could hear this New Jack Swing, Koreanized American hip-hop sound in the group, Sauteji and the Boys, in their 1992 song. I know. Wow, that is a fantastic melanch of New Jack's swing and there's like

maybe some heavy metal in there. There's rapping. There's vocals. There's my favorite thing about old school hip hop which is where they've got like the call and response and the hype men backing them up. And yeah, I can see why this would make people want to dance. This is funky as fudge.

No, it totally is. That's an expression I just coined. Funky as Fudge. Though you're right on, Sao Taji and the boys were known for this eclecticism, mixing this unique blend of Korean hip-hop and K-pop. And you can hear that eclecticism, the metal, the hip-hop, the R&B, that sound and style and even makeup of the group is new and transformative to what will happen to Korean hip-hop. This formation itself, you know, singer, producer, mastermind with backup dancer as a legitimate members of the group is a really game changer. It was a new thing. It was probably the prototype of K-pop boy band nowadays. But just as Sotaji and the boys are breaking musical ground with this

kind of rap, dance variety of Korean hip-hop, early internet communities start developing an entirely different musical scene. By the late-minute meet and late 1990s, there were a group of youngsters who thought that that's not real. It's dance music, but it's not hip-hop. This is really cool. What begins as a disparate internet forum commenting on Korean rap dance music turns into its own musical scene. There were a group of people who believe that listen to the music was not enough. So they started the first Korean underground scene.

One of the things that these underground artists realize is that rap dance is missing an essential component, like truly essential component of hip-hop. Their biggest complaint about the Satyji and the boys and all the New Jack swing groups, they're really good dancer, really good performer, really good singers or beatmakers, but they're really not really good liturists or rapper. That does seem like an essential quality of hip-hop. Yeah, totally. It's maybe hard to capture through translation,

but that early rap dance Korean hip-hop style was not just like, maybe lacking and rapping, it didn't rhyme. It's kind of hard to believe, but early Korean hip-hop artists didn't emphasize rhyming. It just wasn't an important part of their rap. The popular belief was that Korean language is not good for rap. Because of the system of syllables and the characteristic of language, it is not really good for making good in rap lyrics. Okay, you see, in Korean, the verb conjugation endings tend to end with very simple. similar syllables like O, which makes rhyme sounds not particularly creative or edgy, which is such an important part of hip-hop, right, is showing off your creativity in the way

that you can rhyme. So this underground scene starts to find new ways of using near rhymes, interior rhymes, and mixed language rhyming, including English words, and finding unique and creative grammatical structures to create a Korean hip-hop flow of their own. And this is coming from this internet underground community who are kind of inspired by this new dance rap scene, but also feel like it's not true enough to the spirit of hip-hop. Yeah, that's exactly right. And so it's not until 2001 where we get a pivotal record called Modern Rhymes by the artist's verbal gint, where we start to hear rhyming in rap flows in Korean hip-hop. That is not being

Myrida, I'm feeling that's I'm feeling that so hard. It's kind of hard to believe that rhyming is developed just in 2001. Is that true? Is it just in hip-hop or is it in popular music in general? It's not to say that there is no rhyming, but it's not to say that there is no rhyming, But in general, rhyming just wasn't privileged in Korean pop music at this point. But once Verbal Gent releases modern rhymes,

there are all these artists who are inspired and start to develop much more complex and creative rhyme schemes, which leads us to the subject of this episode. Epic High is another really good example. They're the combination of Korean Americans and underground hip-hop. But their music is table. Their music embraces a lot of non-hiphop Elmereau Listen close key and dammed a flow

Smoke the dope as motherfuckers like hydro. But their music is still danceable. Their music embraces a lot of non-hipop elements as well. They're one of the really rare They're one of the really rare cases that fit into every category. Like they could be considered as a K-pop. They could be underground hip-hop, but they're an overground hip-hop band as well. That's probably why they're the most successful in the modern era,

and probably most well-received, both by critics and fans as well. They have everything. Tablo, the superlipiscan language is really rare talent. But also, he doesn't really limited his talent in more legitimate hip-hop beats or hip-hop production. You know, he used a really kind of minimal production, and he heavily borrowed everything from every genres, electronic music and hip-hop and R&B and rock and, you know, other genres. You know, two cut out and Mishara, the two DJs, their music and their production styles are fully based on the traditional turntableness.

So this combination, More eclectic songwriting talents of tableau and the great talent as a liticist and the more traditional turntabalism combined to make this unique creation called Epicai. So Epic High hits on this formula blending underground boombap New York style beats with multilingual, lyrical dexterity and cross-genre danceable tracks that transcend their underground roots. Yeah. Sign me up. By the only 2000, hip-hop was still underground movement. But Epic High, based on these different types of streams and origins, underground hip-hop, Korean-American movement, or hip-hop as a dance music,

they successfully combined these all-different types of streams to make more accessible, you know, hip-hop acts that would put hip-hop on the map of the mainstream music. So in the 2010s, Korean hip-hop totally takes off. There are reality TV competitions, like show, me the money that brings the sounds into every household in the country. And the influence of Epic High and other acts who pioneered that eclectic approach of Korean hip-hop has even influenced K-pop writ large. Korean hip-hop idol, BTS or Big Bang, they actually inherited all these different types of

traditions. They learn this American style of hip-hop from Korean. American rappers. They used the similar technique rhyming skills of the one developed in the hip-hop community, underground hip-hop community. But they still maintain their identity as a great performer and a great dancer. So these new model, I think, BTS and others, they really kind of proof that Korean hip-hop is evolving into this eclectic nature, which is probably one of the things that makes Korean hip-hip-hop really unique. Like the scales have fallen from my eyes or from my years, I should say.

I mean, I knew that Korean hip hop was a thing. But I don't think I had any real appreciation for the depth of the artistry and the kind of surprising contours of its history. I, yeah, I don't know. This is very illuminating. Yeah. And obviously there's a much bigger history here. We could have gone much deeper. We'll try to add more detail on the show notes.

But the big takeaway for me is that there's been this fascinating. I wanted to say arc, but it almost feels like we've come full circle to a certain degree, right? Of this cultural exchange that happens on U.S. military bases in the 1980s to these underground internet forums that bring Korean-American voices into the fold and the development of this music, which is rap dance, it is underground hip-hop, it is mainstream hip-hop, it is music that influences the creation of contemporary K-pop and idol. groups and that those groups are now pioneering sounds that are coming back to the United States, we're seeing this full cycle happen where influence upon influence is crossing shores and changing the sound of popular music. Yeah, deep. All right, you go talk to Tablo about that.

I'm going to spend some Epiqi and verbal gent and maybe we can meet back at the end. All right. Great. Maria, you have a podcast now and you need to start acting like it. What's the first step as a podcaster? Well, you have to ask lots of questions. I'm Maria Sharpova and I'm hosting a new podcast called Pretty Tough. Every week, I'm sitting down with trailblazing women at the top of their game to discuss ambition, work ethic, and the ups and downs that come on the path to achieving greatness.

I have a few pretty tough questions for you. Okay. Ready? Ready. Do not sugarcoat something for me. No. No. No. We'll dive into their stories and get valuable insights from top executives, actors, entrepreneurs, and other individuals who have inspired me so much in my own journey. Pretty tough is your front row seat to the women who have demonstrated the power in being unapologetic in their pursuits. I hope you'll join us.

New episodes drop Wednesdays on YouTube or in your favorite podcast app. Immigration may be Donald Trump's signature issue. President Trump is now targeting predominantly Democratic cities for ice raids and deportation. of protesters clashing with immigration and customs enforcement agents in Minneapolis Tuesday. We will begin the process of returning millions and millions of criminal aliens back to the places from which they came. But what we want to do in this space is talk about America and politics beyond the current president. So what do most Americans think about deportation and border security, period? I think that Americans are definitely against the kind of violent displays that we've seen in the street from ICE.

when it comes to the question of deportation, the answer is more complicated. My sense is that people want border at the border. They don't like the idea of having no idea who's coming into the United States at any given time. The view on immigration from the bottom up instead of the top down. That's this week on America Actually. Every Saturday in your audio and video feeds. Hi, my name is Tableau, and I am one of the members of Episodes. Epic High, which is a Korean hip hop group.

That's Epic with a K. I'm glad we decided to spell it that way because trying to Google Epic with a C, you would get a lot of other things. So, yeah. Probably a dispensary somewhere in Los Angeles. Yes. Funny thing, a year ago, we were trending for no apparent reason,

and we hadn't even released an album. And my members are like, why are we like worldwide trending number one? And I'm like looking and I look at the date and it was 420. So I'm trying to explain the concept of 420 to them. Oh, what a proud moment. Everyone must be so proud. This is a very exciting moment.

You've just released. Epic High is here. It's your 10th studio album. Yes. Do you have called it dark with some slivers of, hope. I'm wondering, what are you trying to communicate on this record? So when I began making the record, that was pre-COVID. The album was being created in a world that was familiar to not just me, but to everyone else. You know, it was just the day-to-day.

So the sound and also the content of the music was somewhere along the lines of what we had always done. And how would you describe that? Like, set some context of the sound, that was something you've always done. So a lot of our music is very emotional, sort of down tempo, lofi. A lot of boombat beats. Yes. And that's the music that we're mostly known for. And that's what we had been working on.

And then COVID struck and all our plans for 2020 just disappeared, just like everyone else. This thing occurred to me that this is the first time in my lifetime, at least, where the entire world is feeling the same fear, same confusion, depression. All of these different emotions are being shared at this moment. It's something I had never experienced. Everything on the news globally, not just with the pandemic, but 2020 was, aside from the pandemic, for someone, odd reason, globally there were things going on that were enraging to people

almost suffocating, right? And when these things were happening right in front of my eyes on TV and also just not being able to go out, I think it changed my mindset and also the music. The music started

changing dramatically and then became what this album that we just dropped became. Yeah, the sound here is, I don't know quite how to put it, it's subdued, definitely can feel dark. I get quite somber, quiet acoustic instrumentation with beats accompanying them, this very strange juxtaposition. Yes. I'm curious about how you arrived at that sound.

A good example is her song Rosario, which happens to be the lead single. So the way I craft songs is I try to bring back a certain memory or a moment and try to recreate what that moment made me feel. So the feelings that I was getting during the lockdowns and everything going on in 2020 was that I'm sad. I am subdued. But at the same time, there's this just angst and anger and this indescribable emotion where like you're feeling something passively and extremely actively at the same time.

And it made me think of this one memory I have when I was in high school, I went to Mexico and I stayed with a family there. And the house that I was in, it didn't have a ceiling. They had a huge blanket just covering where the ceiling should be. So I was there volunteering and staying with this family. And on the weekend, the whole neighborhood would gather and they would play music. And the music I heard back then, it was sad but so powerful, dark but so beautiful. The things that I was going through mentally in 2020, like it made me think of that moment. And when I went into the studio and I was working with all my collaborators, I told them that story and how that's what a lot of people must be feeling.

And so we get at the opening of Rosario this Spanish-style guitar. It's played somewhat, and I don't say this negatively, but it's played somewhat amateurly. It sounds like someone's sitting around, hanging with the family, playing the guitar. There's little flubs. It's not perfect. And we get this Spanish style of guitar. That's obviously evocative of this place that it came from. Yes.

When we actually recorded the guitar, that was like the first take. Yeah. And if you notice, there's like kind of messes up. The guitar player messes up. Right. Yeah, but we just were like, oh, I love that. I love that. It feels real.

How it's imperfect. And let's just, let's go with that. And then it becomes. comes quite contemporary. Yeah. Tell me about how you wanted to merge that story with where you are today. Clearly, the sound changes. We get a very contemporary trap-style beat, and you enter with a fairly aggressive style vocal,

especially coming out of the opening song, which is a much more laid-back track. Yeah, so what I was going through mentally was that the entire world is feeling all of these, shared emotions, confusion and just a lack of optimism. But at the same time, it was a moment where everyone in the world also was hoping for something amazing to happen, not only in medicine, but politics, just all around, right? It made me feel like even in this moment of shared somberness, there is something growing, where everyone is coming together to do something amazing as human beings. It made me feel like if I wanted to create a sonic version of what I was feeling,

it needed to be something somber, something sad, but also incredibly energetic and almost aggressive. Like, I wanted the music to sound like beautiful confusion, if that makes any sense? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, because I think that's exactly what everyone is feeling at this moment. That's at least what I'm feeling. I love that I was able to spend a year so close to my family, to my loved ones.

But at the same time, it's, you know, each day goes by and you grow wary of the fact that things may not get back to normal. soon. And there's this chaos that is brewing constantly underneath the surface. And I imagine you're a father, you have a family, as much as we want to be spending time with our loved ones, we're also wanting our family, our young ones, especially to be able to go out and experience the world and grow and have a bigger experience than they're able to have at this moment. Yes. And I think that's basically the thesis that I had for what this album should be and that's how I tackled each song. Like the first song Lesson Zero, I try to juxtapose. Like if you just listen to the lyrics or read the lyrics, you would imagine a hard-hitting,

aggressive beat. Give everyone a voice but leash him with the mic chord. Feed your things to fight about instead of things to fight for. Teach you everything you want, but nothing you need that everything's got a price and nothing is free. They'll turn everything to nothing. They make you believe that But I placed it over a very peaceful piano. It's almost a ballad. Well, it basically is a ballad. And I did that deliberately to keep up with this thing that I was feeling.

I needed every song to seem like a paradox almost. There's this tension where you're both stuck in place and there's that pent-up quality. Yes. Right? Because that lesson zero opens up. with this beautiful song melody. And then once your verse starts, we get into some of the most troubling material of our current age.

You have a line, for example, like addicted to the news, views superstitions to keep the visionaries glued to their televisions. Yeah. They teach you to heed the word of a God who has never spoken. To fear breaking the law when it's already broken, that to feel is to be weak to suppress emotion. So no one sees you at a heart till your chest is open.

They got you hating who you are to sell your pills and fiction Reaching for the stars when you were born up there with them Addicted to the news, views, superstitions To keep the visionaries glued to their televisions That feels particularly of this moment Experiencing a whole year of not being able to do much For anyone Sometimes it's very it's very serene

Right it's almost idyllic in how you know you wake up You can take your time to get your coffee you just, you know, you pick up new hobbies. And sometimes it's just, sometimes you're like convinced that it might just be better living this way. And then that undercurrent of reality just creeps up and just punches you in the gut every few times a day. That's how I knew my audience was feeling. They were feeling like, you know, oh, it's great to work from home. Oh, it's, it's great not going to school and doing virtual.

school. I love being in my PJs. But at the same time, there's this anxiety just creeping up like 20 times a day. And that's sort of how I wanted less than zero to sound. Yeah, especially for, you know, every single time I realize that we have so many friends, loved ones and others who are not able to stay at home, who might have to be on the front lines of this pandemic and we're reminded of that constantly. Yes. You almost feel a sense of guilt for being okay. When also in reality like that's what they're fighting for so that everyone can be okay right right I've never had the world have a hand in my creative process as much as this past year for example there's a song called based on a true story which is probably the only pure love song almost on the album

And I had great difficulty writing lyrics or rapping in a way where it didn't sound aggressive. I was almost incapable of not being aggressive. Because, you know, I'd be working on the song, I would take a break, I'd turn on the TV, and And immediately, you know, my mind would drift away from love or longing and going to something dark. And I kept fighting it and then decided that, no, I think a love song from this perspective is perfectly fine. So if you listen to the song, like the music is almost like a studio jubilee film, like OST, right? like a soundtrack. It's very peaceful, pretty sounding,

but my rap is very aggressive on that track as well. You can hear the conflict that you were experienced even in the studio and more broadly that you were trying to establish in this record in those very moments. I'm curious, is there

a particular lyric that perhaps encapsulates that feeling in the song. I say that even if there's a threat of emotion poking out, I am cutting it off because I am afraid that if anyone picks at it or pulls on it, all of me will unravel. And that's how I end my first verse. And this is a love song. You know, this is a song where somebody is missing someone that they used to be in love with.

They're alone now. And, you know, they're longing for somebody. That's a weird lyric to be in a Korean love song. How come? Because it's too personal, I think, a bit too dark. It's taboo? Well, not taboo, but because I literally say me. I say, this is what I'm doing to myself, you know.

It's almost clear that I'm not speaking from the perspective of the subject of the character in the song. You can tell that this is being said by Tableau, like by me as a human being. Almost as a confession to the listener. I just decided to stick with that, even though, you know, my members were like, do you think this, like the rap is getting, like the rap is getting, getting too dark for the song. Like, it's also you're spinning it in a way where it's very aggressive. They're like, do you want to maybe like tone it down and try to sound kind of just more

peaceful or melodic? I kept listening to it and I just decided not to because I felt like this was just real. I'm curious, you know, as I was preparing for this interview, I was seeing that over the last couple of years, home, family life, privacy have all been very much. important to you. And I'm curious about how you manage the way that the music requires that kind of emotional honesty when there's also a need when you have such a substantive global fandom to also have your own space. How do you manage that conflict in the in the creative process? I sort of actually just talk about it on the album. There's a track called Social Distance 16

where I say that I've been social distancing from the industry and from my public life maybe and this has been something that I've been doing for nearly over 10 years. I had some things happen to me about 10, 11 years ago now. There was a scandal that overtook my life for about 2, 3 years.

And it was extremely bad. It's not going to sound like, It makes any sense in retrospect, but at the time, it is what happened. People didn't believe that I had gone to the college I went to. My college was like, no, he went here. And they still didn't believe it. And for some odd reason, it became this nationally televised scandal for years. For some reason, I still do not understand.

I'm understanding. It was all completely disproven. It was completely a lie. It was completely made up. No matter how much proof came out, people just would not believe it. And it became this huge thing where there were protests against me in the street. My career was done. All of my family members lost jobs.

My father became ill and passed away. So pretty much everything that was dear to me was taken away from me. This happened like right. as my daughter was born. So, yeah, needless to say, it was a difficult and very confusing time for me. The only way to actually understand what happened, there's actually like a wired article in English. Yeah.

They were trying to figure out what it is. You know, I think it was the first case of fake news and cyber harassment, bullying, like, all wrapped into one. That is something that you don't really recover from because the things I lost are irreplaceable. I can get my career back, but not my family. So I think that still influences the way I think, the way I view the world. And that is why I say that I've always been social distance. Quarantine, we in quarantine.

The industry makes me sick and there's no vaccine. Basically, my career was over at that moment, and I imagined that I would never be able to make music again. And that's sort of when I started distancing myself from what you would call the industry, I guess. I started functioning more individually and independently. I kept away from hugely public appearances and stuff like that. And as a result, I've become a master of keeping my loved ones out of the light when I need to. Right. Even though a few years ago, my daughter and I were, we were the subject of a reality show, which was the most popular show in Korea.

So, you know, it's strange that I'm able to do that, but at the same time somehow maintain my privacy. I imagine even in the framework of reality television, in the same way that whole life is a performance of different characters and different ways of being. Yes. The part of you that you share, I imagine, must be a performance of the conception of your identity as tablo. Yes. That is an interesting way to think about it because I do feel like there are only two places where I'm completely honest. One, being home with my family. I am 100% always completely honest and sincere and true to myself.

And then it's in my music. When I'm writing the lyrics or writing the songs, I will say things that I probably wouldn't be allowed to say in public or on TV or in the media. And that is probably why I'm so drawn to music. it's like the only place where I can say some terrible things that I'm feeling or some horrible things that I can't work out in my mind and it becomes something positive like it becomes something beautiful like people listen to it and they tell me that they identify with it and I think these two spaces are the only spaces where I'm allowed to do that and fortunately these two spaces are the only

two spaces I exist in at the moment. What you were just speaking about using music to say things you can't say in other ways, even potentially to yourself. Years ago we had this great intern, Olivia, and she talked about the reason why that she loved pop music was because it gave her emotional cues to sort of expand her own emotional life. Like, I can express myself in a way that I hadn't heard before. So it seems that is an important part of your process is finding something that,

is particularly vulnerable and almost unsafe for you to share so that others can mirror that experience. Yes. K-pop music is many things, is many great things. It's very vibrant. It's extremely fun, very well produced. Deeply. And once you fall into that rabbit hole, it's really hard to get out. K-pop is pretty amazing. But one thing it is not amazing. at is brutal honesty or brutal emotional vulnerability in its songs. You know, it's very guarded. And there's a reason to be, right? There's a whole system around it.

There's an industry around it. And also, most often, the music is being written by someone else. And then there are the, I think, the rare exceptions, right? like BTS, for example, is the definitive K-pop group, but their lyrics expose their vulnerabilities. And the lyrics are very honest. And I think that's why they've been able to connect so well with so many different people.

But I would not say that that's entirely common. It's really hard to expose vulnerability in K-pop, but it needs to be done. glad to see that a lot of musicians are doing it now. Well, it clearly is attracting audiences. BTS Army listens to our show and

wants us to do better coverage of BTS, which we really need to do. One of the things that they always point to is exactly that authenticity, the emotional sort of depth and integrity that makes them really stand out.

Yes. And I know they've looked to you and Epic High, as influences, and I know you've all collaborated as well, it seems as though there's a threshold that has been crossed. That emotional stasis maybe isn't actually what audiences want. They want that release. Yes. Harking back on what I was talking about with my lyrics on this album,

they want those threads, like those loose threads. They don't want this perfect ball of string without any loose ends. I think the audience is looking for these loose threads that poke out so they can hold on to them. And that's what a lot of musicians are beginning to do. I think that if there was a threshold that just was never crossed, I think it's been crossed. And musicians like myself, BTS, and a lot of the independent music that's coming out in Korea, you know, these are all people in different genres and different spheres, different spaces, all doing this thing, which is great, but still not entirely common. I understand that hip hop in Korea, especially underground hip hop, and I know you all started out independent and have both been through the industry system and are now independent again.

Yes. The sort of independent music, it seems has been a slow burning, very important influence on exactly what we're talking about. here, the capacity to express things in music that might be less emotionally restrained. And it seems to me that we are in a place where now there might be more awareness from industry and idol makers that, oh, maybe that's part of the formula now. Like maybe we actually need to be more honest in the music. Find kinds of emotional authenticity. Do you worry about the sort of loss for?

from, or that transmission from that underground scene towards a more industry scene, do you think it affects how you think you want to express yourself in your music? How do you see that dynamic? Thankfully, all of the industry, industry people that are trying to do that, it's readily visible that it's not authentic. It's hard to manufacture authenticity. Yeah, it's that it's not authentic. It's manufactured.

And a lot of companies are trying to do that. I can see it. But it's so it's so manufactured that, you know, people will know. I always say the audience is far, far more aware and far more intelligent than any label or any suit, honestly, right? Any company or any industry. I believe that the audience is always ahead. and they're ready for a lot more authenticity. So anyone trying to manufacture it is not, it's never going to, it's not going to fly.

So fun songs, upbeat songs, whatever, you're just like, you know, party music, totally cool. Like, it's not to, not to throw shade on it, but it's very hard to what I'm hearing to have that, those threads that you're saying, those uncomfortable moments. People haven't quite found a way to fit that into idol-based K-pop. Yeah, when anything is benchmarked, like when anything is mimicked, it's just not going to be authentic. So I think what K-pop would need is to give the pen and the mic to more individuals. I think that is what needs to happen. Like, these companies are not going to be able to create BTS. They're not going to be able to create an epic eye.

It's going to have to be some kid who has a unique personality. a unique inner world, both dreamlike and nightmarish. So basically a human being, right? Just a real authentic human being who has talent. You give him or her a pen or a mic or a huge playground for their emotions. And then see where it goes. I love that perspective. Maybe we can bookend our conversation with the end of your record.

In fact, this is just the first half of a two-part record. So we don't know where it's going to go. But I feel as though the final song really encapsulates a lot of what we've been speaking about. Mollingale, it's deep, it's personal. Can you set the stage of how you end your record and what you're trying to say? So I had a conversation with my daughter while I was making the album. And my daughter loves that I'm home all the time, that I'm a stay-home dad. Like she literally loves that I'm home and she wants me to stay home, right?

And she literally said, stay-home dad. And I was like, hey, that's what I am. That's the conversation that I just wanted to put on record. For the last few years, it's been pouring rain. So I've been a stay-home dad. My daughter saw the pain and whispered. Stay home, Dad. I made the track, and then I went into the booth to record a verse over it.

And I thought of the many different things I could do. I could just do like a straight rap. I could rap about pretty much anything to close up an album. Right. And I decided to go with something very simple and very almost the opposite of Grant. If Lesson Zero started off with this. monologue or soliloquy about like religion and the world

and just everything going on give everyone a voice but leash him with the mic chord feed your things to fight about instead of things to fight for teach you everything you want but nothing you need that everything's got a price and nothing is free they'll turn everything to nothing that make you believe that everything is under

control and there's nothing to see the song kind of rises and builds and gets bigger and bigger throughout and I wanted to close the album with just this small intimate moment between me and my daughter. And so we get the song Wish You Were. Yes.

Wish you were. I can't really explain exactly why I decided to do that, but I felt like if the album begins with a person that is dealing with the external world, infringing upon their inner world or commanding their inner world, the last song of the album is a song that deals with a person, that is letting their small, intimate inner world keep the outer world at bay, kind of. Just saying that the outside world thinks I'm washed up because, you know, I'm not putting out records. I'm a stay-home dad.

I'm older now. I never come out. You never see me in public or on TV. So the outside world is saying that I'm washed up, but I'd rather be washed up than drowning in, in like past glory. You know, I'd rather be right here with my daughter, with my family on shore. I think that's what I was trying to say with this album. Like, to whoever is listening, I know what everyone's going through because everyone's going

through the same thing now. albeit in different ways, in different degrees, but we are all feeling this uncertainty and this anxiety. And the last song was my way of saying that there is hope. Just don't look for it in extravagant places. You know, there is hope, but don't hope that it comes in this amazing package. Like, it might just be what's right in front of your eyes. That's it.

Perhaps that's also why the sounds of this record, they're not extravagant. Like we talked about with Rosario, like the guitar is just the first take. Yeah. And that's sufficient. The sounds are just sufficient. They're human. And this is ultimately just the first half. So I hope that where the world is at, when Abakaya is here, part two, comes out, it's more hope and less darkness.

And maybe we'll hear that in the record. And I hope that's where our world's going to be. I really hope so too. Thank you so much for joining me and being open and honest about your music. Thank you. Really appreciate it. Switchdown Pop is produced by Charlie Harding, Nate Sloan, and Bridget Armstrong. on. Brandon McFarland is our editor-engineer and mixer.

Though this week we were delightfully engineered by our old friend Bill Lance. Iris Gottlieb does our illustrations, Abby Barr, social media, and Nashat Krua and Liz Nelson, our executive producers. We're proud members of the Vox Media Podcast Network. I want to send a big thank you and shout out to Young Day Kim, who just is his knowledge on this music is so deep. Amen. If you want to read more, He has a great article in Volter called A Brief History of Korean Hip Hop, and we'll link to that in our show notes. Tune in next week because we have a very exciting, very special, very secret announcement that we are going to make.

What we can tell you now is that we will also be discussing the music of a performer who will be at an event in which men run up and down a piece of grass and throw things at each other. Very suspenseful. And until then, thanks for listening. Attention Spotify. Has yet got a new Good Girl Jasmine Absolute of Carolina Herrera. A fragrance intense with character gourmet and addictive. Imagine a jasmine emvolventy, caramelized and tonka-tostada.

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