Switched on Pop - Finneas and Ashe want you to start a band

Episode Date: September 9, 2025

Everyone should be in a band at some point—and Finneas and Ashe prove why. The Grammy-winning producer and rising singer-songwriter discuss how their friendship evolved into The Favors, a new band debuting their album The Dream on September 19th, 2025. We explore what it means to create as a band, how stepping back from confessional songwriting freed them creatively, and why sometimes the best way forward is embracing older ways of making music. SONGS DISCUSSED The Favors - "The Little Mess You Made" Ashe - "Moral of the Story" Ashe & Finneas - "Till Forever Falls Apart" Billie Eilish - "What Was I Made For?" The Favors - "Home Sweet Home" The Favors - "The Dream" The Favors - "Lake George" Billie Eilish - "bad guy" Simon and Garfunkel - "Old Friends" Simon and Garfunkel - "The Only Living Boy in New York" Simon and Garfunkel - "So Long, Frank Lloyd Wright" Simon and Garfunkel - "America" Rick Springfield - "Jessie's Girl" The Favors - "David's Brother" The Favors - "The Hudson" Fleetwood Mac - "Landslide" Fleetwood Mac - "Dreams" Kate Bush - "Running Up That Hill" Olivia Rodrigo - "drivers license" Sabrina Carpenter - "emails i can't send" Miley Cyrus - "Flowers" Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Support for this show comes from Odu. Running a business is hard enough, so why make it harder with a dozen different apps that don't talk to each other? Introducing Odu, it's the only business software you'll ever need. It's an all-in-one fully integrated platform that makes your work easier, CRM, accounting, inventory, e-commerce, and more. And the best part, Odo replaces multiple expensive platforms for a fraction of the cost. That's why over thousands of businesses have made.

made the switch. So why not you? Try Odu for free at Odu.com. That's ODOO.com. If you're tired of endless scrolling to figure out where to eat, same. I'm Stephanie Wu, editor-in-chief of Eater. We've just launched the new-ish and way better Eater app. It has all the restaurants we love, gives you personalized picks wherever you are, and serves up smarter search results just for you. You can find my list of the best places for Martini. and fries in New York City. And save your favorite spots, share lists, follow editors, and book right in the app. Download the Eater app at Eaterapp.com.

It's free for iOS users. Welcome to Switched on Pop. I'm songwriter Charlie Harding. I think that everyone should be in a band at some point. You don't have to start off great. It doesn't have to go anywhere. It's honestly just the most fun to play music with your friends. And who knows what it might turn into. For me, it became this podcast with Nate after our band,

it quits. And I think that right now might be the perfect time. Bands are having a moment. And I'm not the only one who feels this way. Phineas is one of today's most awarded producers beyond his solo work and collaborations with his sister, Billy Eilish. He's worked with countless artists. Most relevantly here, Ash. Her music is this emotionally direct songwriting that turns personal moments into universal anthems. And Phineas and Ash worked together on her huge hit, Moral of the Story. Some mistakes get made, that's all right, that's okay. In the end it's better for me, that's the moral of the story, babe.

And they made a duet together called Till Forever Falls Apart. Till Forever Falls Apart. Ash and Phineas's collaboration has blossomed into a band called The Favors. It's also featuring their friends Marinelli and Ricky Rat Gourmet. The Favors are debuting their first album, The Dream, on September 19th, 2025. I had the pleasure of speaking with Ash and Phineas to find out what it means to be in a band today. We talked about how stepping back from solo confessional songwriting helped free them to explore new creative territory and why sometimes the best way forward is to embrace older ways of making music.

Here's my conversation with Ash and Phineas. Maria, you have a podcast now and you need to start acting like it. What's the first step as a podcaster? Well, you have to ask lots of questions. I'm Maria Sharpova. And I'm hosting a new podcast called Pretty Tough. Every week, I'm sitting down with trailblazing women at the top of their game to discuss ambition, work ethic, and the ups and downs that come on the path to achieving greatness. I have a few pretty tough questions for you.

Okay. Ready? Ready. Do not sugarcoat something for me. No. No. No. We'll dive into their stories and get valuable insights from top executives, actors, entrepreneurs, and other individuals who have inspired me so much in my own journey.

Pretty tough is your front row seat to the women who have demonstrated the power in being unapologetic in their pursuits. I hope you'll join us. New episodes drop Wednesdays on YouTube or in your favorite podcast app. Immigration may be Donald Trump's signature issue. President Trump is now targeting predominantly democratic cities for ice raids and deportations. Dozens of protesters clashing with immigration and customs enforcement agents in Minneapolis Tuesday. We will begin the process of returning millions and millions of criminal alien. back to the places from which they came.

But what we want to do in this space is talk about America and politics beyond the current president. So what do most Americans think about deportation and border security, period? I think that Americans are definitely against the kind of violent displays that we've seen in the street from ICE.

When it comes to the question of deportation, the answer is more complicated. My sense is that people want order at the border. They don't like the idea of having no idea. who's coming into the United States at any given time. The view on immigration from the bottom up instead of the top down. That's this week on America Actually. Every Saturday in your audio and video feeds.

Ash, Phineas, thank you for joining me. I really appreciate it. Thank you. I want to kick things off with listening to some music as we ought to do. So let's listen to the first single little mess you made. Let's do it. It's beautiful. Tender.

Tender, yes. So tell me about this mess that you're all making together. I mean, to get granular about the sort of songwriting of that, I probably am guilty of like over rhyming in my songs. I love a rhyme. Oh, me too. I got some like whatever feisty comment once that was like Dr. Sue Sass songwriter. And I was like, T.

Like, who cares? The little mess you made. I loved it. I was like, yeah. When I was writing the first verse and then some, of the second verse, I was not yet sort of aware of like, should this be a favor song, or am I just sitting and writing it? And then when I played it for Ash, and Ash sounded great on it,

and then we got the drums and the guitar and the bass, I was like, oh, this is awesome. And then we together in the room, like, what if we sang, verse one, verse two, kind of like in the pocket together, we traded off. And it all rhymed. It all rhymes. And I was like, wow, a rare payoff. Like, why did I make verse two all be the exact same rhyme structure as verse one?

I remember we were so excited that it worked. And we were like, we're going to scream at each other. And it's going to be so romantic and cool. I mean, it gets messy. Yeah, for sure. Tell me about how the sort of development of the emotion happens in this song. I mean, it's cool that we actually got to get emotional with it when we recorded the vocals because we did it together in the room, which, you know, is kind of.

of every artist's dream to do that you don't normally get to do because there's, you solo his vocal, there's bleed, you hear me in the vocal. And that's not ideal for a lot of producers, and of course, Vinias, let us get away with it because we make the rules in this case.

All that it really meant was that I couldn't comp as well. We had to really get it right. Because you're like, that's Ash's best line, and then I can't really comp another separate take for the next one because you'll hear two at the same time kind of sliding. So I just was like, this is a great takeover all.

And like, yeah, maybe this has the best emotion. So I feel like this speaks to a little bit the creative limitations that you've established for this album. Good point. I want to get into that. But before we do, you are a new band. Yeah. Or the favors. Yeah.

Can you tell me the story back to the beginning of this collaboration. And then why now start a band? Well, Phineas and I have known and loved each other for a long time. I'm now going on something like nine years, and our working relationship in some ways has been fewer and far between than our actual friendship. But we got excited about the idea of getting to spend more time with each other because our careers sort of swallow up our lives.

We're like, what about a life hack where we sort of get to spend so much more time together because we're doing things like this sitting with you, Charlie, You know, like, usually we're doing these things alone. And like, now I get to, I guess just hang out with my friend today. I reached out to him in 2022 after sort of a musical hiatus for me. It was in the midst of like a pretty arguably dark time, well, almost quit music altogether. And I reached out to Phineas and I was like, hear me out. We start a band, put out one album, kind of call it a day.

And this was, you know, we're just like, how. a hypothesis, whatever. And he said the cutest thing he could have ever said, which was, this solves all my problems. And then six months later, we were working on the record. And, yeah, I don't know if I solved your problems. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

What were the problems? I think the problem was I was deep in Billy's third album. We were not taking a roadmap through that album. We were kind of out in the woods. And that can be a very confusing way to make a record. You know, if you get a couple of songs that you think are good, and then you're working on recording them. That's solid ground to be on.

We were grabbing fragments. We'd get the bridge of a song and the beat for a song and the melody for another song. Like at one point, I remember we had like a label meeting in July of 2023. And they were like, we wanna hear the album. And we were like, what album? Like what are we playing them?

And we played them little 30 second pieces. And they were very sweet about it, but it was vulnerable, you know? And I was also scoring this show called Disclaimer. And those two things were just like eating me alive. And it had been two years already since I'd put out a solo record. And the last thing that I

wanted to do in my free time was like sit around alone. And make another record. And so the idea of writing songs with Ash was super appealing. And I love Ash's songwriting. I love her voice. Like to me, I was like, this is going to be great. And then I brought my buddies David and Ricky and

play drums and guitar with us to kind of band it up. And that That was so exciting that I was like, oh, I think now I can make a solo record in a kind of a like inspired by this approach way. And so that like it's kind of double solved all my problems. It was really fun. And then it also was like, oh, that's how I should make a solo record anyway. It's like everybody in a room writing at the same time because that was so fun to do with Ash. I really resonate with the desire to collaborate with your friend.

Oh yeah. Because on the other side of the country right now is my collaborator. This show is usually done in collaboration with my co-host, Nate, who is a professor at USC. That's right. And a musicologist. Just musicologist. Exactly. Yeah.

We literally started to do this show because we were moving across country from one another. We played music together. And we thought we need to have a long distance friendship talking about music. We couldn't play music long since. And so this has sort of sustained a decade long really deep friendship. Right. It's pretty impressive that you've pulled it off. It's so much fun.

I mean, also at one point we got to go on book tour together. And it was the same sort of thing. I was like, I don't want to go. talk by myself. I'm going with a friend. It's so much more fun. So much fun. So I love that I love to hear about how the collaborative process from generating the material to even talking about the material is much more fun together. And also like people have a funny relationship with working with the people that they're close to. You know, the thing I've gotten for years is like sitting in doing podcasts, you know, around a table like this table is like people will be like,

I could never make an album with my sister. And I'm like, well, sorry. That sucks for you because it's so fun. Yeah. And I have a great time doing it. And it's the same thing with like Claudia, my partner and I just like she directed a music video. And that was like really fun and fulfilling. And Ash and I've been close for so long. And it's really fun to work together.

Like I have empathy with people whose work is so kind of domineering and stressful that they're like, I can't work with like people I really love. Yeah. That's to me the whole thing. Maybe an assumed toxic thing to it. And I think it's very much the opposite for us. And what was so appealing to me was, while at the end of the day, we would love the thing to be as successful as it could be, I know he loves me more than the success of the thing.

Oh, yeah. You know, and we're very yes and. That's a fun place to make an album. And I think you can really, like, feel that in what we created. I think any collaboration, too, is like, the stereotypes or the fear is that there's like a vying for attention

or control or something. We shot a music video two days ago and it's like, okay, like Ash is going to go shoot her verse and I'm like, what a relief. The shared responsibility. Yeah, the shared weight. Yeah. You know, like, you know,

Ash has a headline show at Brooklyn Steel tonight and like I just played in Brooklyn like six weeks ago and that was really fun. And like it's a lot of work up there. marshalling the crowd basically alone. Like you have a band, but like they're not looking at your band. They're looking at you, you know?

And like, I can't wait to be slightly off center on the stage. I'm so excited. Nice, nice. Yeah. I get though that this idea of collaborating with the people that you're closest to comes with both the potential of benefits and risks. Like the benefit is you get to deepen your relationship. Yeah.

Because you have to be vulnerable with each other. Sure. But being vulnerable with each other also has the risk of like something goes wrong. And I see why people. People might be scared of that. Yeah, I mean, I made the joke the beginning of this idea being like, ooh, I hope this doesn't mess with our friendship at all. And he was like, we started a band together. Like, it might.

But then we were also like, at the end of the day, there's such a permanence to a friendship, love, and care that like, you know, if we were having an affair, this would be really hard. Like, this would be really difficult and like, or if it was a romantic thing or if we were together. Or if we had been. Like, I feel like there's a lot of those. If there was some lore. Jack White, Meg White, or like, we used to be in a relationship or whatever. That all seems really complicated. And toxic.

Yes, totally. Like, there's such a security in our friendship that I also feel like we haven't really fought a ton. But, well, at all, really. There is a level of like I know I can shoot it straight with Phineas and he can handle it and hopefully vice versa. I mean maybe I'm a little bit more fragile than he is. But you're fragile too.

I think we're both sensitive. We're sensitive. I also think, again, part of the luxury upon luxury is like we both have like three avenues, right? I'm like a producer, writer and I work with Billy all the time. And then like I've toured on my own plenty. I'm on tour basically. right now. Ash is on tour on her own right now.

It's just at the Gracie Abrams tour and the Kelsey Bellarini tour. Like, there's not much we can like take away from totally. You know what I mean? Yeah. Like if Ash called me in December and was like, I can't do this anymore. I'd be like, oh, like, well, that's sad because I love doing it with you, but like respect.

Like that's fine. You know what I mean? Like, I wouldn't be like, you're taking everything from me. I'd be like, oh, like, I'll miss doing this with you. Okay, so I'm catching there's a sense of low drama here. a great capacity to lean into each other's sensitivities. But then we've got to talk about the sort of the creative framing that's going on here, right? Because maybe you're inviting some curiosity, if you want. I hope so.

The imagery and sound is very retro. The album cover is giving rumors meets Buckingham Knicks. Yeah, yeah. You even titled your album The Dream, which is, you know, giving dreams. Sure. It feels like a little nod. What inspired this reference, though? What inspired the sort of both visual, but more important,

importantly, the musical soundscape, because, as we said earlier, you did this in a very sort of analog sort of way, singing in the same room to another organic instrumentation. Yeah, we ran all the drums through an analog console from the 70s. It was very pretentious. It was really fun. The 70s are here in the record. Yeah, I think we're both really drawn to that era as well. My favorite albums are made in that decade. You know, my favorite artists. There's like a timelessness. Phineas was sitting down at the piano the other day and just like, just like low-key playing Mozart. And I was like, when did you learn how to play Mozart? But just like there is a classic nature that we're both really drawn to. And I think that comes through and what we gravitate towards. I think the first images I sent him were like JFK and Jackie O.

And I was like, what if we went like this direction? And of course it becomes its own thing. But yeah, I don't know. There's a cool sort of timelessness thing that I was drawn to. It's also kind of about, I think, the longer you make music professionally, which for me is coming on, 10 years of, like nine years of getting paid for it, right? The more you understand trends and things that come and go and timestamps. And a friend of mine, actually David, who plays drums all over this album,

made this point about, like, dance music, sort of being our cultural barometer for like the moment, like drums and bass and synths are like always the most sort of like time stamp accessible of dance music. Even non-musicians, when you hear a snare drum, they know exactly what era or something is in the way it's produced. This is the 80s, this is the 90s. And then now I feel like because of, you know,

the sort of half-life of everything, it's like that was 2015, that was 2016, like there's really time stamps. And I think like as I've gone further back, I've gotten more and more into Simon and Garfunkel. Or, you know, Fleetwood Mac or Carol King. And it's too late. It's the stuff that you're like, wow, this is, this doesn't feel relevant at all, but it also is like just aging spectacularly. And it wasn't trendy then.

It's not trendy now. That's also true. Like, I mean, the cranberry juice guy that made dreams, the Fleetwood Mac's on Go viral. where he was like on his long board, and he was drinking cranberry. There's this kind of like every couple years, Kate Bush running up that hill, like that comes back in stranger things.

This is pretty great. It still sounds fresh. Yeah, it still sounds fresh because it maybe never did. So I think there's that sort of thing of like, Ash and I both sit at pianos and write songs and hopefully they feel like classic songs. I mean, that was part of the reason we chose the name. It sounds like a name from Almost Famous or something.

You're like, it's a band name from the favors. Yeah, the 70s or the eight. You're just like, oh, you don't know the favors? Like, they've been around forever. Like, you know, what's my other favorite band name ever? Maybe like my chemical romance. Like that sounds like incredibly modern in a cool way. Yes.

But it sounds really fresh. And the favors sounds like the kinks or the doors or something. Yeah. Ash was like, what's gotta be a the. Yeah, which is just stupid. Like, here's what I want. But I think that that's like a great way to, you know, You know, you're just like, yeah, it should be this classic thing.

Yeah. So, again, it's like if you always aim to be like a little irrelevant, you might not never have to worry about being irrelevant. You made some creative, I think, decisions that you have this sort of more limited palette than you usually were. I mean, I teach your productions in my coursework because... I'd probably learn what I'm doing. One of the things that I really admire about some of your, especially your very minimal

production. So, what was I made for? Sure. There are only ever three things that you can hear. Sure. And there's a hundred things happening. Yeah. And basically it's using modern DAW software to add sounds that are basically contemporary orchestration. Yeah. You're not adding additional instruments. You're adding just textures, timbers. It's supposed to all glue

together and be one section. Yeah. Right. But this record feels like it exists in a time before synthesizers ever existed. And so I'm so used to hearing you grabbing interesting samples with iPhones using synthesizers, big risers or booms or sub-drops, things like this. That's nowhere on this record. Or maybe it is. Maybe it's hidden. It's on, there's like two soft synths on Home Sweet Home, which is like as close to disco as we get. And even then the synths I was like, ooh, this is too fresh.

Like, this has got to be dirtied up and feel like it's old school. But no, it is. And in exchange, the thing that has not been as present in, like, Billy's productions, for example, or other productions I've done for other artists is, like, you have four people in a room. You have a lot of momentum. You have a lot of, like, here comes the chorus, and the drummer is playing a little harder, and Ash is sitting at a CP80, and she's playing a little harder. Oh, you can feel it.

And so that thing that, like, in a very digital production, I would be a different. achieving by like there's a riser, there's a sub-drop, there's a reversed vocal echo. Like those tricks, not as necessary because you just have like a drummer going like, do-d-d-d-d-do-d-da. Right. It's not like he's doing a drum fill. Yeah. And you can hear it just in the subtle differences in the high hat.

Yeah. Building. I'm trying to remember which song. The dream, the song, David's going crazy on the high hat. So was this a sound palette that you all consciously chose? You're like, we want to do analog. We'll be in the same room together. We want to, like, we are a band.

And so there are a band. and then there's other instruments or not band instruments. I do remember you saying early on, like on our first writing trip, I came out to L.A. for a week. And I do remember you being like, this is the palette we should work with. Like, there is a weird freedom to giving yourself, like, a limited amount of ingredients to work with. Also, we're four people.

Yeah. Drums, guitar, me on keys, and bass. And it's like, that's really small. Small. And it's cool to write all the songs. Like there's a few that we wrote. Just the four of the, me sitting at the keyboard and like Finn at guitar, bass. You know, they were Ricky and you were trading.

But like, it was so informed by those four instruments. And then, you know, Phineas is such a genius. Like there's a song called Lake George. I'd take just about anything to help tonight. to stop loving you to stop loving you he found these really beautiful sort of water

kind of sloshing on the shore samples and put those in and added emotion in that way but really the bones of the thing are like us real human people playing the thing and arranging the songs in a very human

lungs breathing in and out way you know that was That was great. And also, like, two things were happening. One was like we, Ash brought in most of the Hudson. I brought in most of Little Mess. And, like, we had these things that we liked. And then I brought in David on drums and Ricky on guitar to kind of, like, try it out. To do, like, to, like, role play a band. It's like a test. And then we did little demos, and I was like, oh, that's pretty awesome. And then again, it's like, I remember, like, the palette, it's like once something was working on one song, or like, how many songs can this work on?

I had gotten really into, in 2023, I was listening to, like, so much of the band Cake. Just love that band. And, like, Comfort Eagle, like, that sounds like they recorded it in an hour. We are building a religion. We are building it. And it sounds like we are widening the corridors and adding more lanes. We are building a religion, a limited edition. And it sounds like they got in a room and they miced it all up and they were like,

here's song one. All right, song two. Like the elements were so cohesive and they wrote all these great songs. But like I just was like very enamored by the kind of like long play thing. I've always been a, you know, person who's like the drums on this Billy's song are completely different than the drums on this song. that plays right after that Billy song because they've been, the production's very tailored

to, like, the creation of the production itself. And in this case, we were, like, writing a song and then recording it. And it was very sort of, like, methodical. Writing, like, writing, rehearsing it, recording it. Yeah. Old school.

Super old school. The way that it was done forever. The way that it was done forever. Yeah. And so it's like, oh, there's a real, you know, value to it. And also, like, the things that as a younger person I was hiding behind was, like, I wasn't really good at any instruments.

David and I were talking about this because David, the drummer and I played together as like kids. We played together like 15 years old and we were both like yeah, when we would go record demos in high school we were all bad. And so like you're like, damn, we better

layer some stuff on this. This is sounding not good. And now he's playing Mozart. Well then you're like, David's like so good at drums. So you're like, I just want to let those shine. Ricky's such a good guitarist. I want to leave all this room for it. You know, so it was a really fun experience.

Beyond being a band, you also are now duetting partners. Yeah. We've got sort of shared vocals throughout the entire record, every track I've heard so far. I'll listen a second to you singing together on the song Lake George. Cool. I'd take just about anyone home tonight to stop loving you. There's a dynamics of those drums. I mean, so much happens in those just little waves.

They're so beautiful. What changes in the nature of songwreck? writing when we're writing for two voices. Well, I mean, you are limited in a kind of a nice way, but, you know, there's only so many keys that work for both of us. Oh, yeah. That was sometimes how we dictated who took lead. Yeah.

It's like, oh, this feels real. I can do, like on that one, that's kind of the top of my. I couldn't full voice belt her chorus. The first chorus, that song we sing in unison and I'm in real head voice. Yeah. I'd be just about anyone else tonight And then in the second one She's belting

And so I'm like, all right, I'll take a low harmon Which was probably pretty selfish of me Because I came in with this idea Like he I notoriously wake up far too early It was like 5 a.m. went on a walk And I was listening to Simon and Garfunkel's bookends And the song Old Friends was on

And there was all this like such specific imagery. I was so inspired. We had already finished the album, but I was like, we had kind of like flirted with the idea of like, if there's another song, that would be great. And then I, when he woke up,

I was like, I got something to show you, what do you think of this? And it was Lake George, or like the beginnings of Lake George. But, you know, I was sitting alone while he was sleeping on the piano. So it definitely, the chorus melody lends itself to my, you know,

accidentally, my lead. But what I thought was really cool about the way that Phineas and his amazing partner, Aaron Forbes, were mixing this record. It was like, you were sort of describing it to me as though you were like mixing it in a way where we both could be sort of taking the lead. Yeah, Aaron's a really great mixer. We did it in a, like, we did it all in logic. And Aaron is so good at, he's mixed most of Billy's like live albums and live TV performances and stuff. He was like, my goal is to like carve enough space for both voices that like there is no like Ash is way louder than Phineas. Phineas is way louder than Ash.

Like it's just like they're separate. You just hear both voices. And like our brains are really good at like finding melody versus harmony. Like we found that with bad guy years ago too. We weren't even really sure which one the melody was because it's just chords. It's like one, three, five. And we were like, maybe people think the one is the melody. And people just knew that it was like the third.

So I just wasn't really worried about, to me, I'm like, Ash is singing the melody in that thing. And I'm singing the harmony. And there's a lot of ways, again, which is this is a, it's retro, but it's also just the way that people record music forever before we had tools like, you know, a lot of producers will use vocal line, a tool that will perfectly sync up vocals. so they sound like they're one. And that's a way of, you know, kind of creating sort of thickness of one single vocal. But here instead, you can hear the subtle variation

of timing. You know, you're not perfectly, you're very tight, but you want that slight human... I'd be just about anyone else tonight. Well, I was watching his mouth. Like, you know, what's really, like,

such the dreamiest way to record vocals is you're looking into each other's eyes. and watching the mouth move and your lungs expand. So there's a cool in syncness that happens just by that. The only thing I really cleaned vocally was S's. But beyond, the other thing is like as a band, we live in an era where being the individual sole celebrity is the strategy that seems to work.

It's the goal. And it's harder to market a group of people. It is. And so this project then invites the question of like, who's singing to who? What's the song about? Because we're not even sort of used to this question. It's true. Where when you're listening, I guess when you're listening to rumors, you're like,

who are they singing about? Like, that's certainly a big part of the question. What is the John Mullaney joke about rumors? He's like an album made for and by cheaters or something. He was like, because I think Bill Clinton played dreams at like all of his rallies or something. Wow. That's crazy. Okay.

I'm going to plant some. archival tape. Oh, that. But so, like, how are you considering that in the writing? I mean, you're saying you were sitting at a piano, writing something with your voice, finances asleep. But you're also thinking, he's my partner in the song. So how are you considering that as your writing lyrics?

I mean, like, Simon and Garfunkel is an interesting, like, this is, I guess, like, the nature of, like, heteronormitivity or whatever. Oh, yeah, right. You never think that those guys are singing to each other. Well, I have a theory that... They were? No, no, no, no. I have a theory that Morgan Wallen and Post Malone are singing a queer anthem to each other,

and I had some help. There's no pronouns in that song. That is a love story. Listen, I'll do an entire episode with you on Man Made a Bar anytime you want. Oh, yeah? All right. But... No, I think, like, to me that Simon and Garfunkel is, like, what we were going for in that, like,

that thing where, like, there's... And by the way, that motherfucker was singing to art. like most of Bridge Over Troubled Water. Like, only living boy in New York is him like, go fuck yourself. You're filming a movie out in Mexico. And I got nothing to do today but smile. And the only news I need is,

I've listened to the memoir. It's literally about art and him being pissed about like, great, I have to finish this album alone while you go shoot a movie. So long Frank Lloyd Wright. Also about Art Garfunkel. Art went to architectural school

before they took off. Frank Lloyd Wright I can't believe your song is gone so soon And he just wrote this like mean ass Like slam poem that's like so long So long Frank Lloyd Wright Like who do you think you are? Like and and scathing

Scathing. Yeah. And and then art is like harmonizing But I don't know To me it was all kind of like That approach of like Is old friends about? them yeah maybe is America clearly about a romance to me yes right we're on this bus

together and we're making jokes about the people on the bus to each other it's very intimate and he says Kathy says her name and the thing like I would be so down to hit names in you know future album whatever yeah and we actually we do hit some names like David's brother we say we say David's brother a bunch of Is David's brother a throwback, sort of retro, different style version of Jesse's girl? I never thought of it like that. Conceptually, absolutely. There's a line, the second verse is that got me wishing I was David's brother.

So, yeah, I wish I had Jesse's girl. It's the flip. This really works because we sort of took on these characters or roles making this record, there's a lot of truth in what we wrote because what's nice is there's a glue of, we do love each other, you know? And so it's easy to tap into some of these emotions because I'd kill and die for him, you know?

And I think that that is gonna come through in the music and why it was so easy to sing into his face and sing these songs. You know, like the Hudson. I don't know. I want to talk about the Hudson. Yeah, Let's. The song that really sticks with me.

It's so good. Okay. Well, because you have a song that's like, feels like it's confessional love. But it's also like it's kind of... The only truth I know is you can be a... Ash writes these lines about the saddest version of intimacy. Yeah. Like, it's grieving the relationship before it's over.

Like Lake George has the chorus is like, I'd be just about anyone. I'd take just about anyone home tonight to stop loving you. so intimate, so sad. The Hudson has the like, the trees were bare naked and so are we. So sad. Like there's like this weird, it's like not, it is sexy, but it's sad, which I think is like a huge victory. Sad person. The Hudson, the Hudson Ash brought 99.9% in to the, like, that was like the first day we were sitting to actually write stuff.

She was like, I got this thing. And she played the Hudson and I was like, oh, I was like, this is so good. for the last train home. We had a way of losing track of time. Yeah, but my two favorite lines he wrote, he took my coat to sit on the balcony. I'd catch a cold if it keeps you warm. You took my cold.

If it keeps you warm. And I was like, Screw you for writing my favorite lines on the song I brought in. I could know. I literally saw those lines. Like you can see those people together. It's very visual. Like on the balcony in New York.

Ash has a couple times bequeathed me, which with like, here's a great song. You want to write four lines in the second verse? And I'm like, absolutely. You're like challenge accepted. Till forever was like that. I got to write the like, nothing more romantic than dying with your friends. Like, to me, it's like, oh, I've been painted a picture and I get to draw like a little top hat in the picture. Like, it's so fun.

The second verse is where so much happens. You get to completely change the emotional tenor of a song. I mean, as Christina Perry once told me, don't forget about the second verse, no rule, rule. which I always think about. Oh, yeah. Change the melody, change the rhyme scheme, change the perspective.

You know what I mean? There really is no rule there. Right, totally. In the Hudson, I'm hearing landslide in the melody is hanging out with, like, the band. Yeah. I took my love, took it down.

I mean, the truth is we both love Fleetwood, you know? So that's going to come through in the writing. They're, you know, everything in 20, is going to be a little bit referential, you know, but it's, there's like a, we're going to feel inspired, but. But this is the Hudson. This is, this is its own, you're painting this own world. And so you are singing to each other here.

Yeah. I mean, the characters are singing to each other. You know what I mean? Like a bunch of this, I think a version of a bunch of this happened to you. He didn't break my heart. Some jerk in New York did, you know. Thank you for sitting foot back in the city. Yeah, we are.

It's funny. Finne Finias and I both have like sort of heartbroken stories that are associated with New York. So it kind of worked for both of us. There's so much truth for both of us. But yeah, there's this guy who like led me on and let me down. But, you know, is this old friend that I'll always hang on to. And there's always a sad, you know, happily in love getting married in October. And there's always a thing with that person will always be in my head.

Well, and you have that kind of like the lines that we got, God, I hope to God, you remember this, right? Yeah. Yeah. Oh, God, I hope he remembers this. And then the second verse we did, the lake was frozen, and so are we, like, we won't make it to spring, right? And, like, I think there's like, I've been in those places, Ash has been in those places in relationships in the past where you're, it's just doomed. I don't know, I don't know why always, but like, you're just like, damn, this is this fleeting thing. and it's very romantic and beautiful today.

And I'm looking at my calendar and you're looking at your calendar and it's like, this isn't gonna land, you know? So to me, like, the song is really about like that. Yeah. There's a doomed thing where you're like in the moment and you know that it's not a surprise that it's gonna end. Makes for a really good song.

Yeah. It feels like you addressed at the beginning of our conversation there's like problem you were having. There's a lot of other creative projects. Yeah. They were in like a certain place of uncertainty. Yeah. And yet writing together as a band, it seems like there's some creative freedom here, right?

Like, there is some inspiration of a real relationship, perhaps. The whole thing is characters. I mean, Ash has this sort of great thing that she's described to me and to, you know, the people that have directed music videos for us and stuff of like, there's all kind of, you know, conceived, right? That you're like, let's pretend this was a band, just like the name is like sounds like an old name. You're like, let's pretend this is a band. And they made an album and the album blew up. And it was like surpassed their expectations. And then they were like, then it got complicated.

Yeah. Then, you know, everybody got emotional. Yeah. And they're like, maybe we, maybe we should break up. Maybe we shouldn't even be a band at all. Fine. We'll make another record. Like, this is like the second, the turmoil record.

Like, that's kind of part of the like narrative. And, you know, again, like, I don't, I don't know that that has to like, we're not sitting. I'm not sitting here like, Joaquin Phoenix, like in glasses, like being pretent. Like, like, walking is amazing. I don't mean that he's pretends. I just mean like, I'm not pretending to be a dick, right? Which was what he was doing. He was like a very nice guy.

Yes. He was pretending to be like crazy. Right. So it's like, again, I'm happy to be myself. But I think to make this album and make it all these stories, you've written so many stories in your solo albums. Sure. I've written stories and solo music. Like to me it's like a big story.

It's a big like. Like let's normalize letting songwriters like make things up. Like it's not. I always are, but no one knows. Yeah. I mean, no one's going to question a script writer writing a really cool movie. And maybe they're pulling from their own life experiences, which gives it an authenticity that makes it real. Yeah.

But, you know, it was like playtime in a way that I've not been able to do or been given permission to do in my own solo music. You know, there's this cool freedom that by doing it together, we can kind of experience. whether it's with the soundscape or the actual storytelling. There's something so limiting to have to play to the expectations of sort of celebrity narrative of like that this has to be about the thing that happened to me, the actual place, I'm going to put all the Easter eggs of my real life in here. I'm going to give it out in social media. It all has to be true so that my fans can devour me. Like that's such a, well, that is a very dominant expectation that exists. And this is going to have those expectations.

I mean, everything in the past, certainly five years, has been, it's all been rat beef. Like, even if it's not rap, it's all rap beef. Like, driver's license is rat beef. Yeah. Emails I can't send is rap beef. Like, it's all rat beef. Flowers was rat beef. Anytime anybody's like, I know who that's about.

That's rap beef, right? And it works. Well, it works spectacularly. I mean, like, it's kind of the most. most potent ingredient to me. And again, I don't mean to diminish. Like, those are all, everything I mentioned just now are like, those are catchy, amazing songs.

But the part of what I think took them from zero to 100 quickly was like, oh, we know what this is about. So again, it's like, I don't discredit any of that stuff, but I also am like, I think that those songwriters should also be allowed to be like, here's a song that I'm making up, You know, and not, you can read into it, you can read into anything, whatever. But it's also like, they're great storytellers, too. They can make stuff up. That's fine.

I think that, like, one of the things that is a tragedy in writing is, like, people have really interesting lives. And so they write an interesting album. And then they have a music career. And a music career may or may not be interesting. Like, once you're writing songs about the road. Flights are not interesting. How boring.

Hotels are not interesting. Unrelatable. success is pretty uninteresting. So it's like whenever you see people be like, damn, I got to keep it real. I've always kept it real. Like, I'm going to keep it real and talk about how rich I am or whatever. You know what I mean? You're like, this fucking sucks, dude.

I have a tweet from like five years ago that was like, I ever sing a song about a watch? Like, you know what I mean? Like, I'll look out for it. I've failed, you know? Well, and people are going to make up their own narratives. They're going to attach them to us. And that's fine. You know, they could listen to this episode and.

and say everything Phineas and Ash said was a lie. They were just putting it on. They have, you know, and like, cool. It doesn't change any of what is actually true for us. And so, you know, very much let them do what they want. I teach a course on pop history that goes from 1980 to 2005. It's a lot of fun. And the first thing I tell my students is, I don't know if any of this is true.

Sure. I really appreciate it. I think you all have been quite candid with me here today. Yeah. But there's a lot of stories of lore of rock and ball that we just can never validate. Like it is as much about building brand and identity and the stories that we tell and the songs that we sing. Well, how often have you retold a story trying to be totally faithful, right?

You got told some story and it was interesting to you and you retold it. And you retold it without the witness of the person who told you the story to go like, actually it was in December or not in June. Like there's just little things. Right. And then somebody that you told the story to found. it interesting, right? And so then they retell it. And now a pivotal part of their story is like, it was the dead of summer. And you're like, in the original story, it was not in the summer.

So three layers, it's like, and you're like, and we're both dripping sweat. We're walking in, and you're like, no, no, no, no, let's go back a couple of steps. This wasn't even in the summer. So, like, I think that those things, it's like, a lot of the time it gets twisted very innocently, just by, like, telephone. Are there things that you learned about each other in making this album together and starting a band? I learned that Phineas is a very patient man. There's a sweetness that you have with me, and maybe you have with your sister

and the people you're really close to, that you really give a lot of grace. I think that sometimes in the writing room, I can be very like, oh, what is it? What is it? Like, the best thing I can do for our band is wake up early and go on a walk and come in with an idea.

Phineas is amazing at being on the fly. I see him sitting there as I'm like working through a line and he's like, he probably has it. He's like, but maybe I'll let her figure it out or something. Well, and I'm so rewarded for it so often, right? If I have like option A, her option B oftentimes is like phenomenal. And I, you know what I mean? Either I'll not even share my option A. I'll be like, wow, so good.

Let's go with that. Or I'll go like, I really like that. Here's what I came up with. And then maybe we'll twist him into, you know, an option C. And if I come up and also like, if I have a. If I have a great idea and it's like, I feel, I'm going to say it. You know what I mean? If I'm like, here's an idea.

What do we think about that? But if I have an idea and I don't know if it's great or not, like, I can just like hold on to it for five minutes and let Ash sit, you know? The other side of that is like, I think she has great ideas. I think Billy has great ideas. Like, I'm not trying to dominate, right? I'm like, they're going to have a cool idea, you know? And also, especially if it's like Ash and I are doing a duet or Ash is.

making a, you know, when we used to work on Ashen's solo music more or Billy's solo albums, it's like, they're going to come up with the most them thing, and then maybe I can tweak that, but like, you know what I mean? I'm not trying to write. I'm not trying to be one of those producers that makes everybody sound like the producer.

I really want like an Ash song to sound like an Ash song. So Phineas has some patience. How about for you? What have you learned about Ash in the process? Ooh, um, I liked two things. One was like in the room writing it

really good at being like, I don't like the direction that's going in. I see it like this. I see it like that. I really love that. It's very stressful to have a person to be like, I don't know. You know what I mean?

Ash was pretty like, she knew if she liked something, she knew if she didn't like something. That was really great. And then in the doing this band, like we've joked that like in the, you know, not disagreeing, not fighting.

Part of it is like we're playing like this real zone game of like, like I was with Aaron while Aaron mixed you know all these songs and then we had the mastered and I was producing them before that and like I'd send Ash every step of the way

I'd be like you know here's like there was like a folder always with the most up to date version of everything and Ash gave like no notes ever it's like she's like sounds awesome and she has made all these like mood boards Pinterest boards you know here's my here's my ideas for a cool

music video here's whatever and like I've done the exact same thing I've been like looks awesome What I'm taking away from this is that everybody should start a band with their good friend. I think everybody should be in a band at least once because it's so interesting. There's also like a cool ego death that happens of like, you know, I think I have good ideas. Benius has great ideas. But like there's a special only the favors thing that happens when it's the two of us. That's true.

Irreplicable. Yeah. And like, I can never make a favors record by myself. Yeah. And there's a cool lack of power in that that I'm never going to be able to leave you and like, I'll make the next one and it'll be a huge success. Like, there's a cool dependency. Is that a word? Yeah.

I mean, I totally agree with you. It is like you make the thing that is so unique. I mean, I think a lot of egomaniacs in bands. And to some degree, rightfully so, like the solo, the modern producer solo artist song. writer person. It's like that's a new thing. Like it used to be a singer songwriter and then a band backing them up, right? And I think that like a lot of the time that meant that there were bands that were like an amazing singer-songwriter and some musicians. And in some cases like the singer-songwriter kind of didn't need those musicians. You know what I mean? Like they're going to write great solo songs without

that same drummer or whatever. And fair enough. But I think like, you know, I'm trying to go make something I couldn't possibly make without the person that's in the room. You know what I mean? I want it to be like exactly what Ash is saying. It had to be made in that way. Couldn't have come out that way with anyone else. Like, yeah. It's going to be devastating when you both go solo.

Nice. That's funny. That's devastating. That's good. Ash, Phineas, this has been so much fun. Thank you so much for sharing. Thanks for having us. It was great.

Switched on Pop is produced by Rihanna Cruz. edited by Lissa Soap, engineered by Brandon McFarland, illustrations by Arras Gottlieb, theme music by Jossi Adams and Zach Tenario of Arc Iris, or member of the Vox Media Podcast Network and a production of Vulture, which is part of New York Mag. You can subscribe at NYMag.com slash pod. Nate and I will be back together on our next episode, listening closely to some of your favorite music, and until then, thanks for listening.

Attention, Spotify. Has arrived on the new Google Jasmine Absolute of Carolina Herrera, a fragrance intense with character Gourman and addicive. Imagine a jasmine envolventy, caramelized and tonka-tostata. A combination that seduce from the first instant and a way yeah's mean absolute

hypnotic irresistible. Discoveringla hoy and let you involve for its essence. Conviette your passion in a new a new and batte records of

ventas with the form of the power of the better conversion of the world. You've heard been the best

the world. The incredible system of Shopify facilita the you can't buy in your site web, in the

social and in whatever that's music for your ears. No, you're doing your

business will be a super-exit with Shopify. Empeas your period of per year

at a month in Shopify pointe bar records.