Switched on Pop - Gastropod: Why are restaurants so loud? Plus the science behind the perfect playlist

Episode Date: May 17, 2024

When you go out for a meal, it’s not just what's on your plate that matters, it's what's in your eardrums, too. From dining rooms so loud you have to shout to be heard, to playlists that sound like a generic Millennial Spotify account, it's not surprising that sound is the single most complained about aspect of restaurants. A few years ago, Charlie and Nate explored this in an episode on restaurant playlists. This week, they joined Cynthia and Nicky on their show Gastropod to help them explore the science behind the sonic experience of eating. Are restaurants really getting louder, and, if so, why? What does it take to create the perfect acoustic environment for dining? Can restaurateurs design their playlists to make customers order more or eat faster? Listen in now for the secrets to culinary acoustic bliss – and check out Cynthia and Nicky's guest spot on our episode of Switched On Pop. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

It's loud, deafening, cacophonous. It's a nightmare. Oppressive. Nate Sloan and Charlie Harding are the hosts of a great podcast called Switched on Pop. It's a show about the making and meaning of popular music. But this is not their review of the latest Beyonce or Taylor Swift album. It is instead their uncensored feelings about a thing many of you will be familiar with. I'm talking about the horrific assault on the eardrums mounted by many, if not most, restaurants today.

Charlie and I live on opposite coast. Charlie's in New York City. I'm in Los Angeles. So on the rare occasion that we get together, you know, we have a lot to discuss. And when we find ourselves in a restaurant, I think we're always looking for the table that's kind of in a corner, furthest away from the speakers, furthest away from the hosts and the servers, where we can just have a little quiet place to discuss. Because I think it's, restaurants are loud these days. We can sympathize with this. And we, of course, are Gastropod, the podcast that looks at food through the lens of science and history. I'm Nicola Twilly. And I'm Cynthia Graber. And we have many questions about why restaurants sound the way they do. In fact, Nate and Charlie do too.

Why does it sound so bad and why does nobody pay attention to it? Why is it such an afterthought? Why do these spaces have to be so echoy? It drives me really up the wall. What makes this worse is that Charlie has experienced rest. restaurant acoustic perfection, so he knows it's possible. Oh, absolutely. I remember going to a really spectacular spot in Berkeley, California with a friend called

Komal. I remember walking in and sitting down at the table, and it was like being in a fresh bed of snow where you're in this big open space, and yet sound doesn't go anywhere. And you can hear a whisper of your friend sitting across from you. And I'm like, what is going on with this environment? Why does it sound so good? Because it's such a rare occasion to step into a restaurant that sounds good, where you can actually hear the person on the other side.

And it still felt lively and fun. So what is Kamal doing so well that most other restaurants are just failing at? We've got Kamal's secrets this episode, but that's not all, because hitting that Goldilocks sweet spot, the perfect buzz that's not too loud or too quiet, But that's only part of the sonic equation. The other thing that makes a difference to your acoustic experience in a restaurant is the music that hopefully is kind of in the background, the soundtrack to your dinner. We reported a whole story about how every restaurant at one point sounded like LCD sound system.

Millennials were coming into their spending prime and putting a lot of money into restaurants. They wanted to hear the thing of their youth. It was kind of upbeat, kept him feeling young, even if it was no longer the hip thing. Playing music that was huge 20 years ago is one strategy for sure. But is there any actual science to designing the perfect restaurant playlist? This episode, we're on the case. Are restaurants getting louder? How can engineers design the acoustically perfect restaurant space and what music should be played in it?

Gastropod is supported in part by the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation for the public understanding of science, technology, and economics. And by you are amazing listeners. We're part of the Vox Media Podcast. podcast network and partnership with Eater. Attention Spotify. It has arrived at the new Good Girl Jasmine Absolute of Caroline Herrera, a fragrance intense with character

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Discover it'll today and let you know it was my birthday. I went out with my husband to a restaurant that had just opened in our neighborhood. in this beautiful hotel. This is Julia Ballouz.

She's been on the show before, most recently our episode on hunger. She's a health journalist, and this particular birthday meal inspired her to write a story about the problem of restaurants and loudness. The hotel was situated in this century-old church, and it had these grand spaces

and cavernous ceilings, and the acoustics were basically unbearable. Like, I remember this conversation between my husband and I, was sort of like, what did you say? Can you hear me? Yeah, as I was leaving, I tried to like log a complaint to, I think, the matra D or something. And I think she couldn't even hear me. And I just left wondering, like, why, why is this happening? Why are we doing this to ourselves? I agree. I also wonder why we're doing this to ourselves. And it's not just Charlie, Nate, Julia, and me. Tom

Sitsima is the food critic for the Washington Post. He's been doing that job for more than 20 years. And he said people complain about the volume of noise in restaurants to him all the time. And it's not just old people. One guy in particular wrote me and said that he posed to his girlfriend, but he couldn't hear her say yes. And she was right across from him in a restaurant. And so he repeated the question at home the next day and got the answer that he was looking for.

But here's a life moment that is ruined by noise pollution, right? Like we said, Tom's been in the dining out business for a long time, and he says it is undoubtedly true. Restaurants really are getting louder. Julia pinned down a couple of causes when she reported this story. So one is this idea of the great noise boom that started in the 90s and that some people pegged to Mario Battali, celebrity chef in New York. And the idea was that he would kind of blast music at Babo, his restaurant,

and he thought this was kind of a way to convey vibrancy and energy. And other restaurants sort of picked up on this trend. The second reason Julia identified for louder dining, experiences today is that in the 70s and 80s, restaurants often had carpets and linens in a tablecloth and curtains, maybe even fabric on the wall and on the chairs. But that trend of having noisier restaurants converge with this trend of moving into these more minimalist spaces. So exposed bricks, exposed concrete. I think a lot of places still like that clean, sleek, modern look, which invariably means, you know, concrete or bare floors or bare tables.

Like linens have disappeared in a lot of places because they cost so much, dry cleaning, and all that costs so much. Tom says that at this point, he can look at a photo of a restaurant and know exactly how deafening it's going to be. Pierre Germain told us that he can look at the design drawings and know. There's so many projects that we work on where you get these renderings and like, oh, I've got to have marble and glass and I just start shuddering because they're just like, Wow, this place is going to be pretty loud.

Pierre's an acoustic engineer for a company called Meyer Sound, and he says that this experience gets even worse when the room fills up with people. It's literally amplified because people in a loud space tend to talk more loudly, so everything gets out of control. Tom was getting so many complaints from Washington Post readers, at least one or two a week, but he decided to get scientific about this issue. And I thought, well, let's do a story on this.

And maybe along with a story, I could also introduce noise, ratings. This was back in 2007, and so to measure the noise levels for his noise rating, Tom lugged around a brick of a decibel reader. These days, it's easier. You can even measure decibels on a smartphone. And Tom now has a decibel scale he uses for all his restaurant reviews. 60 to 70 decibels would be conversation is easy. And 70 to 80 is must speak with raised voice. And it gets more dire with every, you know, fortunately, I'm not going to too many, places with 90 or 100 plus decibels, at which point it actually gets dangerous. After 80 decibels, that is like city traffic comparison there.

And that actually gets dangerous over sustained periods. And some restaurants get up that high. Tom told us that he went to a Peruvian place during happy hour, and he barely escaped with his eardrums intact. It was over 100 decibels for a sustained period for at least an hour and 15 or an hour and 20 minutes. And that, my friends, is the equivalent of a jet engine at takeoff. A jet engine typically scores about 120 decibels. So this is certainly getting up there and it sounds pretty uncomfortable. And we're talking about this from the perspective of patrons. Like we go to these restaurants for

a couple of hours or an hour, once, twice. And there are people who are working there day in, day out, and having their hearing damage. Everyone knows loud sounds can damage your hearing, but the mechanics of it are actually kind of fascinating. So you have thousands of tiny cells in your ears. They look like hairs under a microscope, and their job is to translate sounds into electrical signals that your brain can understand. Sometimes a sound wave from a noise you hear can be so loud that it actually kills those hair cells. That's really what people call them. And once they're dead, there's no way to repair them or grow new ones. This translates into hearing loss. If you lose too many hair cells, then it's harder to understand what people are.

are saying or hear things from across the room. Most people can lose somewhere between a third and a half of their hair cells before they actually experience noticeable hearing loss, but above 80 decibels, that damage is already starting to happen. At around 85 decibels, like city traffic, you can listen to that for about eight hours before it starts to hurt your hair cells. But the damage speeds up when the sound gets louder. If you're listening to something at 88 decibels, that's closer to standing right next to a lawnmower. You can only listen to that for four hours before you're going to be risking permanent damage, and most restaurant shifts are longer than that. The way the scale works, it's kind of exponential. So like that Peruvian restaurant

during happy hour, say it was between 103 and 106 decibels, that gives you just four or five minutes before you start wiping out those hair cells. So it's clear that working in a loud restaurant for hours at a time for months on end will have some real long-term harm. And even for customers, it can be risky. A super loud restaurant really is dangerous. But also, if you're already hard of hearing, forget it. You just lose any ability to make out what your dinner companion is saying with any excessive background noise. I recently read that the Hearing Loss Association of America estimates that 48 million Americans have some degree of hearing loss. That's a lot of people. That's a lot of people who eat out.

Perhaps unsurprisingly, given all the complaints he was getting and the number of people for whom this is a real issue, Tom's new decibel ratings for restaurants were a huge hit with readers. Readers loved it. I became everyone's new best friend. I still hear from people all these many years afterwards. Thank God we have these sound ratings. Restaurateurs were put on notice. You know, it became a big subject in the industry.

Some restaurant owners reached out to Tom to say, hey, we know this is an issue and we've been trying to improve the situation. And some restaurant owners told me, like, look, you know, like I have some restaurants that are quiet and cater to a different clientele and I have some that I want to be livelier. So we're going to stick with what we have. So we know there's a problem and we know what the causes are. Great. But now, what can you do if you're a diner who would like to be able to order your meal and talk to your friends without screaming? Well, in D.C., Tom's reviews can be a guide to where to find peace and quiet, and Julia told us about an app called Soundprint that also crowdsources decibel levels.

That way, you know what to avoid. Walking out also works. If I go to a restaurant that I feel is too loud, I just don't go back. This is definitely part of the calculation I make of, like, the food has to be really good, the ambiance has to be nice, but part of that is that it shouldn't be too too loud. But if there's a restaurant where you love the food, or maybe it's a restaurant someone else chose for dinner, and your word might be a little loud,

there are some steps you can take to have a more pleasant experience. Tom recommends sitting away from the bar, ideally in a corner or at the edges of the room. And also dine early before the music goes up during the night, which is often the case in restaurants. And by the way, that's the trend, too. 5 o'clock is the new 7 o'clock.

Yay, because I love dining early. Thank you for making me feel cool, Tom. Julia also has some advice. You don't want to be too close if there's like an open kitchen that can be a really noisy spot. And I also have no shame about asking for a quieter table. So if I'm seated in a table that feels like it's kind of the noisy hot spot of the restaurant, I'll just ask to move.

These are useful tips for diners to avoid the worst of the cacophony, but the real long-term solution involves a mysterious science called acoustic engineering. How to fix noise levels in restaurants for good after the break. Maria, you have a podcast now and you need to start. acting like it. What's the first step as a podcaster? Well, you have to ask lots of questions. I'm Maria Sharpova and I'm hosting a new podcast called Pretty Tough. Every week, I'm sitting down with trailblazing women at the top of their game to discuss ambition, work ethic, and the ups and downs that come on the path to achieving greatness. I have a few pretty tough questions for you.

Okay. Ready? Ready? Do not sugarcoat something for me. No, no. We'll dive into their stories and get valuable insights from top executives, actors, entrepreneurs, and other individuals who have inspired me so much in my own journey. Pretty tough is your front row seat to the women who have demonstrated the power in being unapologetic in their pursuits. I hope you'll join us. New episodes drop Wednesdays on YouTube or in your favorite podcast app. We told you that restaurants in the past had curtains and carpets and maybe fabric on the walls and all of this helped muffle the sound. But there are ways to incorporate some of these aspects of sound muffling design into a modern, more spare, concrete and glass-type restaurant, too.

Sometimes they come up with a really kind of creative, decorative ways of putting acoustic treatment. They'll put some banners up in the ceiling and maybe some insulation above it or just something, I don't know, a piece of artwork that's got some fabric to it and some thickness to it. Pierre said there are some good tools to make restaurants sound less hellish. The most common are these things called acoustic panels. They're basically just absorptive materials.

things like cork or felt or foam, maybe covered with fabric to look nice and then put on the wall and or the ceiling. Another option is something called a bass trap. Base notes are the lower part of the sound spectrum, and they can be both particularly bothersome and even harmful for our ears. But also they're harder to get rid of. Pierre and his team built a base trap into the ceiling of a restaurant they worked with. So there was a fiberglass insulation, these panels with an air gap above it. And I'm not sure how deep the air gap was. I think some like at least a foot, if not two feet.

And that creates a really good base absorbers. Which really helps make a restaurant less boomy and loud. The problem is that these things cost money. The owner of a new Turkish restaurant in D.C., it's called Namak, told me he invested, this is just recently too, he invested $140,000 in the material alone for soundproofing. And that's if you do it ahead of time when you're first building out the restaurant before it opens. And doing it retroactively, you're going to spend about four times as much money to do it after the fact. Either way, it's really not cheap, and restaurants don't have unlimited money.

They're often scrambling just to open. Would you rather spend that amount of money on soundproofing, which no one sees, or a chef, or a pastry chef, or some fancy piece of art, or some nice new fabric on the banquette? That's what I hear from a lot of restaurateurs. We would like to offer people a relatively quiet experience, but it costs a lot. And this is in an industry with very narrow profit margins. And that means it's rare to find a new modern restaurant with good acoustics. I'm always pleasantly surprised if I walk in a restaurant and I see acoustic treatment. But that kind of soundproofing, like acoustic panels, as rare as it is, that's just the start as far as Pierre is concerned.

His company is known for creating completely optimized sonic experiences. They usually work with concert holes and theaters and music venues. But their work in restaurants started with. a conversation between John Meyer, the founder of Meyer Sound, and a guy named John Paluska. He used to manage the band Fish. So he was very attuned to acoustics and sound, and he was starting this new restaurant called Kamal in Berkeley. If you're thinking, wait, didn't I just hear that name at the start of the show?

One gold star for you? You are correct. Kamal is the place that shocked and delighted Charlie from Switched on Pop with its acoustical perfection. To help Kamal achieve that level of sonic glory, the first thing Pierre and his colleagues, did is map the restaurant and figure out where sounds are bouncing around. Then they put in the most sophisticated panels and bass traps and all sorts of things to deaden that sound.

But then what that does is it actually kind of makes the room kind of anemic acoustically. It doesn't have any life to it. You start losing all your privacy and you can start kind of picking out conversations nearby. So that's not actually great. These passive acoustic techniques, soundproofing, they can leave a restaurant kind of awkwardly quiet. But the reason Pierre does that is. is that it gives him a blank canvas to then do something called active acoustics.

Yeah, so there's microphones in the room, and they pick up the ambience in the room. We've done some systems where they're concerned, like, hey, are they recording my conversation? Like, no, all it is is just kind of picking up just the general ambience in the room, and it goes into the reverberator, and the reverberator kind of mixes everything up. What comes out of the reverberator is distributed throughout the entire space. The microphones aren't meant to be eavesdropping on you, like Pierre says. they're picking up the sounds from around the room, but they're mixing them together so they're unintelligible.

And then the results come out of carefully placed speakers, and it sounds just like the hum of a conversation. You know, it's the idea is just to kind of create a buzz, but you're not really kind of picking out what people are saying. And it creates this kind of bubble of atmosphere in ambience. When Kamal first installed the new system, the owner John Paluska showed a reporter from CBS how it works. Slow Monday evening, allow a little more noise to warm up the room.

Very high a level of reverb about a second and a half. Test. Sounds a little boomy. Hacked and buzzing on a Friday night. Dial it back. Kill the mighty stir. When you bring it all the way to high occupancy, that's when it's really quite noticeable.

It just dies right away. Test. So that's what the reverb itself sounds like. But Pierre told us he couldn't give us a sample of the before and after of the sound of actual voices recorded and then transformed by the reverberations because it's a company secret. He said you just have to go to one of the restaurants with a Meyer sound system and experience it yourself.

Any excuse to diana Kamal? But still, you might be like, really? They go to all this effort to take out all the sound and then they add it back in, why exactly? But Pierre says what this system means is that the sound levels are totally under the restaurant's control. We just bring the background noise back and we can control it, we can zone it,

we can have it active so that if there's a table, that launches into happy birthday for somebody's birthday. It doesn't really overwhelm the entire restaurant with that level. That background home can be really finely tuned, even depending on the area of the restaurant. So the banquets are intended to be a little bit quieter, the bar is intended to be a little bit livelier. It can change over time, too, as the restaurant gets busier or quietens down. As the room starts getting more and more occupied, then the system gets quieter and quieter to maintain an even sound level. There's a lot of math and engineering that goes up.

into all of this, mapping the space and creating the algorithms that can understand what the restaurant sounds like, where and when, and how to optimize the technology and make it all come out as beautiful and pure as acoustic snow, as Charlie described. Getting that perfect bed of acoustic snow takes a lot of carefully placed equipment, too. Something like 20 microphones hanging from the ceiling at Comal, and then a similar number of speakers, and all of them have to be carefully placed based on these super intense calculations about reverberation time, frequencies, and all kinds of audio variables.

So perhaps unsurprisingly, the price tag matches the effort and the results. It's in the six figures, definitely. So, you know, I think if you think low six figures is generally kind of like what's the typical kind of going rate for something like that. Which is not nothing. But that consistent, controlled sonic perfection,

it does have some very real benefits. Well, the experience that we got just from restaurants that we've done here is they get a lot of repeat business. And especially if there's people that are hard of hearing, and it was funny enough, I was talking to one of my neighbors, and they said there's only one place in Berkeley that I can go eat, and it's Kamal, mainly because of the sound is reasonable. And of course, there are benefits for the staff, too,

avoiding hearing damage is one, but it's not the only one. Pierre mentioned the staff of a restaurant called Acre in Oakland that Meyer Sound worked with. The servers loved the sound system. As soon as they started working there, they noticed that they're back. We're not hurting as much, and we're like, what's going on? And they're saying, no, we don't need to lean over at the table to take people's orders anymore because the room is just so nicely controlled.

And we don't need to yell at people. They don't need to yell at us. We can just stand upright and take their orders. Fixing back pain is definitely a win. But like Tom told us, the restaurant industry is typically running on the tiniest of margins. And so most of them don't even do the basic acoustic dampening, let alone the full active Maya-acrued. experience. And so they're loud. You know, forget truffles and caviar. These are delicacies that you can now find on a lot of American menus. But quiet is really the new luxury. But don't forget, you can also be

too quiet, like Pierre said. No one wants to walk into a mausoleum. You want a little fizz, that little champagne fizz. You want to feel like you're not the only person in whatever restaurant you're going to. A restaurant that's too quiet that's almost silent? Sure, it's not dangerous to your hearing, but it is super uncomfortable. Nearly as uncomfortable is a restaurant that's too loud. And so restaurants have another trick up their sleeves to deal with any awkward silence, and that is a playlist. Nate from Switched on Pop says basically all restaurants play music.

I think being able to cover up any lulls in the conversation with music, if you're eating by yourself to sort of have something to distract you. And maybe also to give the staff a little bit of cover, you know, for their own complaints about customers and discussions about substitutions. You know, it creates a sort of bed of noise that allows everyone to preserve a little bit more anonymity. But how can a restaurant create the perfect music environment? We've got the science behind the playlists after the break. Immigration may be Donald Trump's signature issue. President Trump is now targeting predominantly democratic cities for ice raids and deportations.

Dozens of protesters clashing with immigration and customs enforcement agents in Minneapolis Tuesday. We will begin the process of returning millions and millions of criminal aliens back to the places from which they came. But what we want to do in this space is talk about America and politics beyond the current president. So what do most Americans think about deportation and border security, period? I think that Americans are definitely against the kind of violent displays that we've seen in the street from ICE. When it comes to the question of deportation, the answer is more complicated. My sense is that people want order at the border. They don't like the idea of having no idea who's coming into the United States at any given time.

The view on immigration from the bottom up instead of the top down. That's this week on America Actually. Every Saturday in your audio and video feeds. So as we've explained, loud noise damages hearing, and the science behind that is really well established. What hasn't been as well studied, at least until lately, is the way the sounds in a restaurant affect other aspects of our dining experience. Back when Janice Wang started her research about a decade ago, there was not a lot of science exploring the effect of sound and music on the restaurant experience. So at that point, I wasn't aware of any research that was looking specifically at noise and eating. There's a lot of anecdotal studies, especially with people complaining that, oh, restaurants are way too loud.

And somehow that's leading to a negative experience. Today, Janice is Associate Professor at the Department of Food Science at the University of Copenhagen. And while she does now study food and sound, she said it's actually kind of hard to do it. Eating is by nature of a very multisensory experience. So when we're studying sound, of course, we can never, you know, just take that one factor. out, there's the taste and the smell and who you're eating with and what the food looks like. It's a lot all at once. But one thing researchers have found is that the volume, the decibel level of the room and the music, it definitely does make a noticeable difference. In a louder environment,

people will tend to eat faster and they will tend to consume more. So maybe the loudness trend that Julia and Tom have noticed, maybe it's also about selling more food and drinks rather than just Mario Battali and modern aesthetics. There are very much. numbers that get thrown around for how much more people seem to consume in a loud environment, but they do seem to be eating more. Some people think this could be triggering some sort of stress response, because the same sort of faster eating and eating more behavior has also been seen in rats. So it's not just humans.

Stress doesn't sound like a good thing for a restaurant to trigger. Like, oh, I know, let's make it loud enough, so all our customers just want to flee. But it's not an all-or-nothing fight-or-flight response. If you can kind of grab people's attention and trigger their acoustic start or reflex, they get a shot of adrenaline. And they feel like, yeah, okay, I feel like I can do stuff or yeah, I'm going to eat more or have another drink. And you can do that with volume. Doug Marshall is the founder of a company called Altura. They work with restaurants on creating their playlists.

And he says it's about creating just a little bit of stress. It's like the kind of energy you get when you go for a jog, but not the kind of stress like when you have to run away from a business. Or like that little adrenaline rush you get before you have to speak in public versus the paralyzing kind where you have to give a speech you forgot to write. Not that I'm speaking from personal experience here. Doug says turning up the volume to the right level just kind of gets people pumped. You know, we want to build a burger bar. We know that, you know, if the music is basier, funkier, louder, we're going to sell more burgers. More decibels, more burgers, at least up to a point.

And so remember that loud Peruvian happy hour, maybe they're doing it on purpose. Like, of course you're going to drink more Pisco Sours or eat faster in that sort of environment. But there is a way to use sound to make people eat more slowly and to linger, and it's not just about volume. It's more about what's on the playlist. Doug told us about one case study his company did. Before Doug came along, the restaurant was just playing generic upbeat pop with a pretty uptempo beat. We slowed that down. we added

sort of new up and coming artists but also more positive music and more music that was approachable to all kinds of ages This is still a part of me by the minutes from the 1970s they've been called one of Seoul's

great forgotten groups and actually just created a nicer atmosphere that was more relaxing and when you come to the end of the meal in a restaurant it's really key for a business model because you're making money on puddings and alcohol. And the atmosphere just became a lot nicer to be in.

And therefore people said, okay, yeah, maybe I will stay. Maybe I will have another drink. And maybe I'll order a pudding. Or a dessert, as we Americans would say. And this translated to a financial win for the restaurant. We managed to increase dessert sales by 12%. And we didn't measure alcohol or anything else on top of that. It seems like there's a couple of things going on here.

Being intentional about the tempo is important. Janice's published papers that show that slower-paced music does seem to help people eat more slowly. So we have a natural entrainment of sight. Right, like if you listen to faster music, your heartbeat will be faster. And I think you will also see faster. This is like when you're working out and the right tempo music can make you jog faster. And so music that could get your heart pumping could be a great idea.

to play at a burger bar. You get people, you know, they come, they'll eat quickly, then they leave, so you can, you can sell more, and make more money. On the other hand, if you're more of a fine dining restaurant and you make money by, for example, selling more drinks or selling more dishes, in that case, you would want to slow down the music so that people will tend to stay longer. And if they stay longer, they'll tend to order more things. So depending on the type of restaurant you're running,

you might want to manipulate the music differently. It all depends on your business model. One is to make money by volume. That's the burger joint. The other is by price point and getting each table to linger and spend more money. So far, so sneaky. But there's another factor that Doug said seems important, although it hasn't been studied on its own.

But as part of that dessert case study, Doug didn't just slow down the tempo of the music. He also replaced those generic, familiar hit songs with lesser-known tunes, like that one from the minutes. Megan Patterson also creates playlists for restaurants like Doug does. She works for a company called Uncanned Music. She agreed that super popular music is just not the way to go. Like I was just eating last night at Capri Club here in Eagle Rock. As it happens, Eagle Rock is just up the road from where I live in northeast Los Angeles.

Yummy, yummy, yummy food. And their music was great. but I was like, oh, this is totally a Spotify playlist. Please Capri Club, don't come after me. I love your food and it's super cozy. But the tunes were so algorithmic. Like they were one into the next, into the next, into the next, that are all like, this is the East Side Hipster playlist.

Great tunes, but I also can listen to that all the time. Megan had some unsolicited suggestions for changes they might want to make. It's like, okay, if you like, can I call you Rose by the Sacred Souls, which is a huge tune. You might like this song by a local guy, like Les Imprems or anything from Big Crown Records. Undered discovered a little more independent, like your mind could be blown if you just get out of the Spotify suggestions. What I'm about to say is definitely not scientific, but in my sample size of one, me, I think the thing about unfamiliar music is really true. because if I'm in a restaurant and I know the music and the lyrics, I'm totally distracted.

I agree. We can make that a sample size of two. When that happens, I want to sing along. I pay attention to the words, not the food in front of me or the conversation. What I really want in a restaurant is for the music to be something lovely, but that I don't know and that doesn't distract me. The loveliness piece is scientifically important, according to Janus. What we found overall with those studies was that liking for the music was correlated with liking for the song. food. And this is kind of a quite general finding that pleasantness of the music often transfer to pleasantness of the food. Loveliness is, of course, subjective. But Nate says there's a relatively objective way to try to get the right music for the restaurant, and it's all about reading the room. I have been a cocktail pianist before. And one piece of advice that I got that

has been really helpful in that respect is someone told me, you should play at the speed that people are walking around the room. So as you see people getting up or servers walking around, like, you should use their footsteps as the beat of what you're playing. And if you do that, then you will be at the right tempo to set the vibe for the space you're in. Basically, Nate says, the perfect music will just blend in with the atmosphere and the energy. It's not too loud. It's not too fast. It's not too familiar, but it's not too demanding. Easy. Sure. Sounds like a snap. But how would a restaurant achieve this kind of musical perfection? Would someone who works there just handpick each song themselves?

Normally, restaurants don't give it that much thought, especially at the beginning. They just do what most people do when they're having a party. They plug in Spotify. So a lot of people do use streaming services like Apple Music and Spotify, but that's actually copyright infringement. It's illegal. Illegal is obviously a potential issue, but also the algorithm can look. let you down. Doug told us about a juice bar that went the Spotify route. And they said,

we chose an algorithm. We wanted happy, fun, uplifting music, and we kept hearing Baby Shark. And it was super embarrassing. And I don't know if you know what Baby Shark is, but yeah, it's not cool juice bar music. Not at all. But not everyone uses Spotify. Sometimes there's a music enthusiast who works at the restaurant who decides to make the playlist themselves. The problem with this is that it's hard to have a playlist that's long enough so that it doesn't get boring. The other problem with the staff picking the music is that they don't necessarily even want to hear the same kinds of things that the customers who are sitting down and eating and drinking want. The staff wants more upbeat music because they're jamming, they're working,

they're hustling. So they want like boom, boom, boom, boom like they're working out. But then also, if a client's eating, they might not want to listen to. for on the floor house music because they're not pumping, washing dishes and sanitizing glassware. They're, you know, playing footsie and enjoying a beautiful meal. So clearly having either staff or Spotify choose the playlist can be subpar. Instead, restaurants can sign up with companies that make a playlist for you. They're mid-priced and not super fine-tuned to your particular restaurant. Some of these are big companies. Music is the one you might have heard of. The service they offer is you pay a fee and their algorithm selects the music for you and that's what you play.

It's very hands-off. You won't get Baby Shark, but it's also a little bit samey. This is what you'll hear if you go to somewhere like the Cheesecake Factory or P.F. Chang's. But like with restaurant acoustics, there is a higher-end option. If you have a little more money to spend or if you really care about the music you're playing in your restaurant, you might end up hiring someone like Doug or Megan to personally curate your soundtrack. Basically, Doug and Megan are like the Meyer sound of playlists. They're not just passive. They're actively curating music to achieve certain. outcomes. What we try and do is we're experienced designers. So it's about using music to manipulate

human behavior in order to get results. They talk to restaurant owners to get a sense of the vibe they're going for it. Then they'll dig into their own music collection and look around at the world of music. They're basically DJing dinner and they need to come up with a lot of music. Because if you had a six hour playlist and it would go through every song, you would hear that, you know, even though it's randomized every night. So I try to at least double or triple it to start. And then some clients, we continue to beef it up and then we max out at maybe 40. So that means that, you know, in a couple days, you might not hear the same song to avoid fatigue.

And then a lot of clients do monthly updates where I remove 20% of that and then refresh it. So eventually, after a certain amount of time, you have a cycled out completely fresh tunes. Doug also says he updates his playlists by 20% every month for restaurants. and he actually measured the results of that playlist freshening process at a burrito restaurant called Freebirds in Texas. And we managed to increase staff retention from just changing the music. Retention is actually a huge issue in restaurants. The hospitality industry right now is in a situation

where it's becoming really difficult to hire good staff and keep them. And so paying someone to help you cycle out your playlist might make economic sense. It's not just about the staff experience, though, Just like how the Meyer sound system can allow you to build more of a buzz as the evening gets going, Duck and Megan both also create different playlists to match the customer vibe at different times of night. So when a restaurant first begins service at 4 or 5 p.m., that's going to be a different energy than say something that's at 6, 7, 8 when it's full swing in. And then we also have a moment where we're kind of simmering down.

So we don't play like a huge shuffle from open to close. Perfect. They choose just the right music. They change it up regularly so the staff doesn't get burned out. They change it up for the time of night so the customers get just the right experience. Between the active acoustics and the active playlist curation, we truly have everything we need to create the perfect audio experience for eating. Amazing. So everyone should just call Pierre and Doug and Megan or their equivalent and do this, right?

Well, as we've pointed out, it's not a cheap thing to do well. And as we've also already discussed, the restaurant business operates at a really thing. margin. They don't have a lot of extra cash lying around. So I mean, yeah, we've said it makes a difference, but really, how important is it? I feel so weird saying what I'm about to say, but I don't think sound is that important in the grand scheme of things. And I feel really bad saying that because I'm a sound researcher. And I think this is perhaps why most restaurants don't really care about acoustics and they sound terrible. It's because it's not great, but people can live with it. And when it comes to eating, I think there is an attentional effect

where when there's a really great plate of food in front of you or a great glass of wine, most of the time your attention will be diverted towards smell and taste. And perhaps the background noise will be less highlighted. That was pretty honest. Doesn't mean we should skip all of this altogether. I think it depends. Some people are good at tuning out things that are annoying, like the music or the loudness, and just focusing on the food, like Janice says. I'm one of those people. If I'm eating something delicious, it really doesn't matter what's going on in the background. Whereas I get really distracted by loud sounds and really bad, annoying music. If that's all going on, it's going to make it a lot harder for me to concentrate on the delicious food on my plate.

Plus, there's the issue of the people who have to work in these restaurants. And honestly, like Nate and Charlie said at the start of the show, noisy restaurants are just kind of hellish. And they're not alone. Julia found that this is a very widespread feeling. Well, I was surprised to find that both Zaget and Consumer Reports log

noise as the chief complaint among diners. So it's not the food, it's not the service, it's not the decor or whatever, it's the noise. People find this really uncomfortable. Not to mention potentially dangerous to your hearing and health. And the basic fixes, the past

of sound dampening acoustics like foam panels, they're not that that expensive. Truly, the sound treatment, how much it costs compared to what it does, it's absolutely worth it. It's not hard to treat a room and make it look good at the same time. And there's, yeah, there's that stigma

that to do one compromises the other. But, you know, it's just a matter of being, of the awareness, you know, spreading the awareness that, you know, sound is really important in a restaurant. It's not just the food. It's not just how it looks, but it's, you know, you want people to have a pleasant,

overall experience. So yeah, it shouldn't be a luxury. It should be more of a standard. Doug does have some skin in the game, but he told us that both the acoustics and the music definitely matter. It makes a difference. And if you think it doesn't, try playing some slipnot in the restaurant for an hour and see what happens. Okay, not a great idea. Don't do that. Even Janice, despite her doubts, she does think background sound matters, including at the level of deliciousness. While maybe it doesn't matter so much for smell and taste, I think it could matter a lot for touch and texture. Like how crispy or crunchy or silky smooth something is. We reported on this before, food is sensed as crunchier when you can hear yourself crunch. So if you can't hear

the light crispy sound of those tempera battered vegetables as you bite into them, then you might not enjoy them as much. And ultimately, even though there hasn't been that much good research on this topic, the studies that exist do show background sound does have some effect, even if it's not the most critical element of the whole eating experience. Subconsciously, it's changing the way that you're behaving. You might not think it's the most important, but it's definitely up there. Megan says if people have a great meal and there's great sound and great music, they may not exactly notice what it was that was so awesome. So they might say, I just remember it being great. They don't know why. And it's because of the music.

was the finishing touch because it is the cherry on top. Thanks to all the folks at Switched on Pop for collaborating with us on this episode. We'll drop a special extra bonus from them in your feeds next week, all about restaurant jingles featuring none other than Cynthia and me. Thanks to all our guests this episode, Tom Sitsima, Julia Ballouz, Pierre Germain, Janice Wang, Doug Marshall, and Megan Patterson. We have links to their articles, companies, research, and websites at gastropod.com. And we have lots of fun extras for our supporters, including the future of restaurant audio,

gastropod.com slash support, to get on that list. Thanks as always to Claudia, our producer, and we'll be back in two weeks with a brand new episode. Convierter your passion in a business with Shopify and bathe records of ventas with the form of the pay with a better conversion of the world. Has you heard of bien? The best conversion of the world. The incredible system of Pago of Shopify facilitates the purchase. in your site web, in the

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