Switched on Pop - Going Off Book

Episode Date: December 31, 2024

On this very special episode, we join forces with the hilarious podcast OFF BOOK. When our powers combine, Zach and Jess of Off Book, plus their killer backing band of Scott, Dana and Brett create an improvised musical, while Nate and Charlie break down the sound and structure of a Broadway show. Stay tuned for deep thoughts about what separates pop music from musicals, wild speculation about the origin of the word “vamp,” and an ENTIRE FREAKING MUSICAL COMPOSED FROM SCRATCH that will make you laugh your face off. This is not one to miss. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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It's free for iOS users. Hey, it's Charlie. The other night I saw the most spectacular comedy show I've ever seen, I think. It's not even fair to call it a comedy show. I saw Offbook the improvised musical hosted by Jessica McKenna and Zach Reno. These two are masters of their craft. They do a full, completely improvised musical with like a three-act structure, with plot alongside a live band. they understand the ins and outs of the musical so well that they are able to make one up on the spot.

And a few years ago, we spoke with Offbook and they showed us how to make an improvised musical in the studio. It is truly one of the creative highlights of my music journalism career. And I want to share that story with you again today because, frankly, I had so much fun at Offbook the other night. I think you'll really enjoy hearing from Jessica McKenna and Zach Reno as well. Here's Offbook. Welcome to Switched Off Book. I'm songwriter Charlie Harding. And I'm musicologist Nate Sloan.

And I'm person, Jess McKenna. And I'm human question mark? Zach Reno. I'll love to get to the bottom of that. I'll never tell. This is a really fun mashup of two different podcasts. Right. What we're calling it?

Switched off. A pop. Switch. Switch. Switch off book. Yeah. Switch off book. Yeah.

Switch pop. We make a book. a show called Switched-on Pop, where we break down the making and meaning of popular music, and we overwhelmingly admire what you do on Off Book. We make a completely improvised musical podcast. That laughs in the face of music. Yeah. We've also got King of Pianas, Pianas of King, Scott Pascarlla, making everything up.

We got Brett on the Fretz, who is our guitar player and also our engineer. We got producer Dana Wiccans, Wicks on the Sticks, Producer and Dana. Producer and Dana. Producer and drummer and Dana. And Dana. And we have your little producer, Megan, joining us. We have Shannon from your mom. We have a whole team making this happen.

And it's really exciting. Okay. So I wanted to do this because I embarrassingly know almost nothing about musicals. And my job is to like break down music. Yes. And Nate has written a couple of musicals. It's true. He does not improvise them.

No. You improvise musicals. And it is probably the most stunning thing that I have ever heard. Oh, God. It wows me every time, really. The wow is appropriate. And what I wanted to do today was basically I was hoping that you would teach me about the fundamental form of a musical. We could, we have an amazing band here.

We could break down some of the music that's happening, which is what Nate and I do. And I also really want to learn about how it is that you do what you do. I want to know about the magic. I want to break it down. Great. We go now to the inside of me and Zach's brain. And this is a classic opening number. The purpose of this is not even so much to introduce characters as much as to set the world and the tone of the thing.

We might meet characters that are important here, but we might not. But Scott is giving us a sort of like musical landscape here. And also, so he's playing with us. If you're familiar with improv terms, we are going to yes and we're going to say yes to what he's giving us, which is like we gave him brains. This is what he chose and we're like, mm-hmm, that's great. And I'm like neurons, firing. Right.

I'm not thinking about like, can. It doesn't feel like the inside out brain. It feels more like a space brain. Where are we? What is this? How do we make up spontaneous music? Well over here, if you can follow my lead, I'll take you to areas I can access with speed. This is it. Is it as I try to...

Because we had some of the background said, But now with the end of this breath, I'll say, Oh, look, neurons. Picture of a brain. And because Jessica knows song structure, she knows the next part is insane. We go for the things that we said about the inside of a head. For example, now we're outside of the head,

and we're going to meet the man. He's a man whose job is to look. Stunt. I don't know what we have. What we have to add, that was all, that was such, that was such a beautiful meta, a meta musical, meta musical. So what, Charlie, what do we want to, what do we want to isolate from, from the opening number of the musical? I mean, we're tutoring you here, so. Well, I feel like what I've just found is that I've been launched into a world.

It's exciting. It's energized. Like, I'm, I'm ready to keep moving and I want to know what happens next. Yeah, so without knowing a lot of musical theater, I mean, I think great, musicals, you know, maybe you meet Jean Valjean at the end of the opening number. Mostly you're just seeing a bunch of people in a prison camp. You're like, okay, this is France. Okay, some people are in jail.

Right. The opening number of company is them all talking about Bobby and then you don't meet Bobby until the end. The opening number of Oklahoma is just a guy being like, the sun is nice and porn is good. I'm trying to think other like classic opening numbers. But, you know, that's something that Zach and I are, we're not, though we are improvising, we're not inventing a form. Like, there's a lot of roadmap there for us.

And we know that an opening number, especially for us, we have this additional thing that's happening where we're bringing a guest along, who maybe has less of familiarity than we do. And so that's like a first number to be like, there's really no stress yet about plot. We're just going to like explore the world, get on the same page about tone, the who, what, where, what kind of story we're dealing with? We can really also only have that flexibility because Scott and the band are also so flexible because there is a song structure. But Jess and I break that structure all the time.

And a guest often comes in not knowing that structure. So if I've just finished a verse and Scott is like, clearly building back up to the chorus. And then, no, I'm doing a verse. And I'm the guest that I'm new. And I thought that a verse was a thing to do. Like he'll just go back and do that again. And then he'll do the chorus later. Because who cares?

We're only going to do it once. Right, exactly. We don't burden the guests with like, here's a, here's like a pamphlet before you start about like all the things to remember. We're like, come, be out of your comfort zone with us. We'll take care of you. So that's outside of like just a musical structure, something that we're thinking about. And I tell this to new musical improvisers all the time. Like structure is there, like study it, learn it.

It will help you. And then when you're doing a show, throw it away. Because it's not the most important part of what your brain is doing. I feel like I've never been more prepared for a modulation in my life. than what just happened. Yeah. Like you are all, how often do we get a modulation

up a key in the opening number? I feel like you've raised the stakes before the stage. Yeah, Scott, Scott, speak to it. Oh, by the way, guys, we got Scott on the mic. We've given up.

The thing we swore we'd never do. Oh, God, it's happening. I would tell you it's maybe like one out of 20. Very rarely, it's mostly a, I know this is going to mess with them. At this point, I only do it at the least opportune times, which I really do stop doing.

No, I feel like I don't want to speak for you, but it's also the fact that we were doing that without a guest. Oh, yeah. If there had been a guest, I would certainly not do that to them. That would be cruel and heartless. But to just us, it's fun. Like, we expect that. Plus, I figured if we're hitting opening number, like, let's grab as many of those tropes as we can at once. Yeah. So what happens after an opening number? Where do we go? Oh, okay, great. Barbara, do you have the charts for the person in room 33? Yeah, of course I do, doctor. I'm sorry, I say person. I should know his name. I'm having a day. Dr. Sutton, it's just on the top there. Oh, gosh, Barbara. Are you all right?

Yeah. I wrote down T-R-A-Y? Is this man's name T-R-A-Y? Is this man's name T-R-A-Y? Maybe we're just thinking about lunch. His name is printed at the top. You know, the nurse, we do this for you. Um, so maybe you were just hungry. Uh, I mean, I might as well be. I've had, his name is Bryce Tanner. Bryce Tanner. I could have sworn his name was Trey. I'm starving. Can we get food? Yeah. I'm sorry. I've been on a, this is like, this is my 26th hour of what was supposed to be a 14-hour shift. Dr. Sutton. People keep getting, oh, I need brain surgery now.

And normally it's the sort of thing you plan out in advance, but I kept getting person after person of needing brain surgery now. Dr. Sutton, us hardworking folks in the healthcare industry, you know, we take care of a lot of people, but are you taking care of yourself? What do you mean? Who's tending to you, Dr. Sutton, who's asking you the questions? How do you feel? Who's asking after you?

Dr. Sutton on the pain scale of 1 to 10 is this real who's taking into account how you are doing and wondering if you have had some food I might be overstepping but I just want to say take care of yourself it's true who doctors the doctors who doctors the people who wear the lab coats Who da da... Jeez, Barbara, I really don't know. It's like there are so many people coming in and all of them patience. But when it takes time, taking time for myself

is something for which I have no patience. Saving other people's lives. I don't have time to sit or have time to sleep Or have time to steam delicious rice Who doc? Can you tell I've got just steamed rice on my brain I'm gonna walk with me I'm going insane A deep breath, have much with what?

Got a doctor technically Yeah, no, I understand it's something more schooling, but I'm... I'm doing my lunch and I'm taking this apple and I'm gonna get some steamed rice. Take care. So what do we call that section of the musical? So that I think, if we were,

if it, it's sort of an I want song. I think we get the suggestion of the central problem character where maybe from here going to further explore that this doctor who doesn't know how to have self-care.

Yeah, this doctor, at the end of the song, it's like, okay, he's going to start taking care of himself. Right. He's definitely not going to do it right

the first time he tries. He's going to need people to help him on this path. Or we would, if we were just following him, there's a couple ways that we sometimes I mean there's infinite ways that we go about this but the other thing that could happen is

we might introduce someone right now who is directly in the way of what this doctor is trying to accomplish and it might be himself like it might be himself he might just be bad at it or we might like throw a villain in there it really depends on the story there's no sort of right or wrong way to go about it it's just kind of what we want to do

yeah fairly soon we'll throw an obstacle but also you know we're we're also a comedy podcast. So I feel like we're also leaning into like, okay, he's going to doctor the doctor. And this is going to be a song about like not eating rice. We're going to give it the high stakes of part of your world. Like, but it's maybe not actually. And then we're just going to list professions. Yeah. For a while. So the, yeah, no, this is great. The opening number kind of brings you into the world, gets you hopped up and energized. And then the next song, maybe the I Want song kind of

establishes the stakes a little. So now we're like, all right, we're invested. What's, what's, What's going to go down here? And it's our first suggestion of who probably the protagonist is or our first protagonist. This could still morph in a somewhat of an ensemble story. For sure. Especially because this I Want song is not super clearly saying like, here is the clear trajectory of this man.

Right. So can we shine our musicological spotlight on something now? Because something that really struck me about the opening of that song was the vamp. Like, what is a vamp? And can I get a vamp right now, actually? And how does it have this ability to make whatever you're saying sound somehow incredibly interesting? And like, it's going to lead to something extraordinarily profound.

Interesting. Except this isn't because I know it's music, so it's interesting. And if I say it's slow enough with me. music behind it. What an interesting thing! But really I'm buying time until I can find a rhyme. And maybe it's spoken.

Maybe I don't sing yet because we're still deciding whose song this is. Like if we have a scene between the doctor and the nurse, well which of us is going to take the verse first verse? Okay, it's the nurse. So she's playing.

Yeah, so. So that's amazing. So like this. This is such, and this is like a unique thing about musicals, the vamp. Like you don't, this isn't something we encounter so much in pop music, I think. It's right? Because it's like for the stage and it's for it. And it gives you that flexibility and it can be as long or short as you want.

If you're, if you're a musical that is not sung through or doesn't have music throughout, like in like Hamilton or Rent or Les Mis, the music never stops. Right. But if you're a more traditional book music musical, I think you need that adjustment period for the audience so that it's less jarring. That people are suddenly singing. You know, like in West Side Story, it's like we got a whistle and snap over vamp

and we have to go like, hey, you! Before we really like get into. Oh, that's interesting. Because even musicals that have like are sung through do their version of stalling. like, uh, Phantom of the opera

had sections were like, Christine, it's recitative and it's basically one note and I might as well be talking but because no one has just talked in this musical,

this is the way we're going to do it. Christine. Yeah. But it's basically, it's serving the same purpose. Yes. Lame is a little differently where, but there's a similar,

like, we are just shouting in each other from across the room. Like, yeah. Yeah. No, I guess so like because singing, going from talking to singing is inherently unnatural. And so the vamp provides the bridge for you to get to that like place of heightened emotion. Right.

It's helping you suspend your disbelief that music can just happen in this world first. And you're like, okay. And now they're going to sing what they were once saying. And the very like emotional and glib thing that people say is in musicals people sing when words are no longer enough. which when I used to say that in college, I'd be like, right. And now I'm like, ew, a little bit. The other one that I, this just reminded me of, I don't know what this is apropos,

but we're talking about it. It's like, when people are in love, they sing. When people are making love, they dance. Oh, that's great. But it is supposed to be like something heightened, right? Just something heightened is happening. That's why we're singing. Even in something where the music doesn't stop,

it is going to shift when, like, in Hamilton, Byrne, feels a lot different than them, like, rapping about, like, before the story of tonight. Like, it feels different. It feels more like a standalone song, even in a show that the music doesn't stop. And if I can go, like, super cord nerd for a minute, like, a film is this awesome, like, just do this for as long as you need to. And, like, usually with, like, a pop song, it'll be like,

and go right now. Which is great for me, because, keep in mind if we're inoper. We don't know what Key Scott is playing is or where he's going. It's really nice to hear something for a second before you dive in. It's really hard for Scott to play and me to sing at the same time. So the simpler, the vamp, the better. Yeah, I lean on this, the sustained chord. You know, it could be real great for the guests to come in on any beat,

and now that's the one. Exactly. Cool, vamp. I want to know where that word comes from now. I actually have no idea. Oh. Hmm. I thought that, well, no.

I was going to take like a wild swing that it's like. It's an Italian word. All of them are. Isn't it a, isn't it a vamp kind of like a saucy woman? Yeah. And is a vamp like laying on top of a piano like, hey, everybody, thanks for coming out to the show. Hey, we got a great show for you lined up.

Hearthearted Hannah, the vamp of Savannah P.A. Yeah. What? Is that a song? No, hard-hearted Hannah. It's a working hypothesis. That's my current hypothesis. We'll have to, we'll hit them.

It's a saucy lady laying on a piano. It sounds right. Who needs the underscore to be like, what a, what a marvelous show. What a glorious time to be alive. Oh, back when I was just a little girl, I used to sit by my mama's knee. You know, that thing where I feel like old-timey cabaret singers used to go from, like, and my mother would say, you need to shuck those peas before you come in here, Victoria. Oh, pease.

But honestly, who eats peas? I feel like that's vamping. Yeah. Could be like a vaudevillian thing. I feel like so much goes back to vaudeville. I'm buying, I'm buying. The important thing is that there's no way to know. So that was encyclopedic.

Should we move on? What comes after? I'm particularly, well, I'm just curious. I feel like we've had this great opening number, which made me really excited. And I, like, learned about somebody. And then I learned a little bit more about them. But like all the, all the music has been like very uplifting. so far? I'm wondering, do you think about, is the music

going to shift from here? Where do we go? So, right, great. Um, okay, and no, we do not have enough money for this. We do not have enough money for this. We do not have enough money for this. Hospital director, Klein.

Do you mind if I come into your office? Well, you're already in here, aren't you, Curtis? Yes, I have been sleeping in the corner because you said there's not enough money for you to go home. There's not enough money for you to go home. I wasn't sure exactly what that meant, but you're the boss, so I followed you. Well, I'm just in here slashing things from the hospital's budget. Yes, most of the rooms are now closed and we're using them as escape rooms,

we're renting them out to other people? Good. Yes, that's what I want. I know that this is all about making money, and I know that since the doctor here is refusing to charge exorbitant prices for his brain surgery. Sort of New Amsterdam bullshit. I will not have it, Curtis. I will stop.

that doctor Sutton if it's the last thing I do. But hospital director Klein, he's helping so many people, aren't you worried? What's helping people more than an escape room? It's escapism, and it's puzzles, and you maybe learn something, and you work on collaboration. And it's a room. Yes, Curtis, it is a room. Oh, I...

I'm in a room with a series of riddles and tasks. What do I do next is the question I'm I ask, do I unlock this? Are these numbers significant? Do any of these things lead to me being triumperent? I will get to the top of the heap, and I won't let anyone stop. Because I can't afford to not have your escape.

Be the person that sits inside the room. You don't know if they're a part of it or not. Yes. They answer questions, but only danger questions. Like you're touching something live, and it might be hot. They say, don't touch that. not part of the room, but you touch it anyway.

And then you get thrown out and you never know how the room ends. I don't care. What is care if I don't care? And what is the room if there's no one in there? And how do you escape when you're chased by a bear? And what is this and what is... More of the funding for all the rooms? Yes, and go back to that corner, Curtis.

Do you want us to keep going? You know, I jump in. I forgot we were just doing this more. through or you know the thing the play is itself you know the thing is itself whatever there's a quote there

what is the thing itself I just mean this is now I feel the form so we don't need to fight it yeah this is what it is wow so that was that was the villains's entrance sounded like it

yeah what do we have we have a minor we have a minor key right oh yeah yeah that's that seems necessary and also kind of like a jazzy vibe yeah jazz is evil is the thing

that we're trying to tell I think we do play We lean into the tropes of your more like Cartoony villains more often on off books So that means that we're gonna play with tropes like Like a Captain Hook A Tarantella, a Tango Like these big style choices that keep the villains

Like playful and fun much more Ursula You know poor unfortunate souls those kind of We gotta get more tarantillas going It's such a good villain's song to sit in here in a room quite clear. Yeah. One of the things I notice in your song structures is just so different than pop music,

which is sort of our, that's where we sit, is that verses and choruses actually progress. Like you take us somewhere as the song goes on. And we've talked a lot of songwriters on our show where they'll do a songwriting session. It lasts all day. And then they're like, oh, shoot, we forgot a bridge.

And then people are like, should we write a bridge? Bridge? No bridge. No bridge. We don't need a bridge. or like, okay, fine, we'll put together a bridge, whatever. And I feel like you're taking it like one, the first chorus, second chorus, and third chorus are never the same. They're moving forward.

So this is a thing about comedy specifically. So Jess has a really good play on words there with that chorus, right? No one can escape my doom. We're clearly making like an escape room pun. But which is like maybe funny the first time you hear it a chorus. And if it's a pop song, it just has to be catchy when you hear it every time. If it's a joke, you have to change it because no one is going to laugh at that chorus. the third time to hear it.

Now you don't have to, but you have the option to. Right. So we lean on that a lot, especially in a four-line chorus, that third line, making it mutable. Or he's like inserting bonus jokes is like an echo thing. But I think because, so half of this is musical theater trope where yes, there is plot movement

and there's character development. And that's part of the progression of musical theater where it started, where songs used to just be like, let's put the pop songs of the day in a show and let's have that singing be like, there is a vamp singing. There is like a cabaret singer is singing the song and so the music happens in the world.

And then when we transition to the Tin Pan Alley musicals and like Roger and Hammerstein, that's when we get into like this, we end the song different than where we started it. Either plot, character development, character owning a want, or characters falling in love. Something is different when we end the song.

And then for the comedy side of us, we want to make sure it's funny throughout. and we're not just relying on the same pattern but we're playing with pattern and heightening it. For sure. Yeah. But yeah, even musicals like traditionally, and just as said this,

for a very long time, action stops when the song starts. Right. Until like some time-ish, no? I don't think so. I'd say like Rent and Hamilton do like more of the opera thing where it's like moving along and singing the plot, but like a lot of it's just like,

hey, we're doing stuff and now let's talk about how we're in love for three minutes. Yeah. But we are more in love at the end of the song when we started. I'm thinking of the other delineation, which is into like quote unquote modern musical theater. But yes, Oklahoma is when that shift happens, which is like the, was taught to me as golden age musical theater, which is, I think, an arbitrary label. But I think, yeah, Sondheim then pushes that even further. We're like, we're now densely packing lyrics, lyrically. And from now on, like, if you aren't paying attention to the lyrics, you might miss significant plot points, not just like, hey, I think this girl wishes she could.

escape her humdrum life. And I know she wants to escape her humdrum life. Like that plot movement is character base and emotional base. And then we move into like, oh, and here's like how she's going to do it. And here's like all the reasons why. And here's like the people in her life who will help or

you know, like we've moved that needle for it more and more forward. I mean, that's right. So pop form is more like a circle and musical theater form is more like an arc or something or an arrow. Right, you end somewhere different than you began.

A staircase. Because often I think a chorus in not comedy songs is the reset. It's the restating of the thesis. You're not necessarily getting new information. So it's the time for like us to come back as a performer and an audience member to be like, right, that's still the main idea. It's not like, look at this stuff, isn't it neat? It's part of your world, which is just a really great one. I think it's like an escalator because it's a staircase that.

all moves. It's like, I wonder if that's the reason why you don't really hear, I mean, with few exceptions, you don't hear a lot of musical theater songs cross into the pop sphere. You don't turn on, you know, the radio and hear, unless you're listening to like, you know, the musical station on Sirius or whatever. And even like Greatest Showman, which is like not super like, the music isn't modernish, but you could, you could hear like it is modern influenced. you would be like something about it being on the radio would make you think this.

I think that one song, at least people like performed it on the voice. Yeah. You know. They have them. They have. Dana on the mic. I'm on the mic now. I said they, Pink did, they did like those like the re-mixed or like remastered, whatever they were called. Yeah.

Whatever. But those greatest showman songs, I've heard at least three on the radio like consistently. They're not the. On non-musical radio channels. On non-musical radio. I listen to the radio a lot. This is a big reveal. Dana Hart's radio.

The radio. I heart radio, but I don't heart. I heart radio. No, but yeah, they're all on there. But I mean, it's anybody listening, I don't think, would assume that it's from that show, but it is. So it's kind of neat, that it kind of like sneaks in. But there wasn't like us, even though it was everywhere and massive, it was not like there was a song from Hamilton that was on the radio. And even like, I feel like defying gravity made it into the zeitgeist, but not because it was on the radio.

Right. You would hear it before movie. played in movie theaters that people were loading in. Like I feel like let it go from Frozen maybe got like fairly close. But we've talked about this because of the nature of musical production, it takes years for musicals to get made.

Your very current sounding song with the time your musical comes up is three years old. Yeah. And I feel like maybe this is just because I'm getting older and you can speak to this, but I feel like pop music moves at like a wild rate now. Like I feel like I can't. I can't keep tracking what they're doing. Jessica just put on a hairnet.

It is one of the fastest moving art forms. That and internet memes is probably the only thing that moves fast. But yeah, it's like I feel like if I haven't listened to New Music Friday, where all the releases come out every single week, I'm behind. Yeah, I feel, and it's made, it's at a rate now where I'm a little like, throwing my hands up because I like, I can't do it. And my, I feel like I'm not on the pulse enough, you know, as someone who doesn't really listen to the radio,

all my music comes to me like chosen. Whereas musical theater, I mean, even that song we just heard, the escape room is like reaching back to these older styles. It's like, that's such a part of the sound. Yeah, also, you're like, you're setting it, you're setting everything up for me. Like I'm totally just game to go along for your ride. And the whole song,

functions totally differently. Like, I'm not supposed to sing along in the chorus, unless I'm your guest. I know you're guest, but I'm not singing along because I'm not a comic guest, and I can't do what you. But it's like,

I'm just game to listen through the chorus, and like there's enough that I know where the melody's going to go, but I've no idea where the story's going to go. And that's a totally different function than if I'm at a Taylor Swift concert where my job is to sing during the chorus. You don't want people singing during the Broadway musical.

Right, exactly. Not on their first listen. Exactly. You want them to be paying attention and like getting every, every beat. Yeah. Well, I wonder, okay,

I wonder if we could try to lean popier musically and what that, I mean. Feels like your job. Yeah. Band. I feel like, you know,

one of the things that because we're improvising it and that's hard, you know, we give ourselves as many legs up as possible. So that, the fact that Zach and I grew up doing musicals, that means that that's probably going to be the kind of,

of source material for a lot of stuff, but hopefully our music gets other influences. For sure. Scott is also playing on a piano, traditionally a piano-ish instrument. But like, yeah. So, what were we doing in the story? It's been so long. I got it. I got it. Okay. Walked away again, left me wanting more. And left me with his... Sing something down the heart.

always hungry as I was before and I left my apple core and now I'm here inside the cafeteria and thinking but something is missing something almost they got the right another lonely night still missing

I have to say there was one of my most favorite musical features in that song clearly you really thought about this very deeply in your chorus, am I missing something? You start late. And we call that text painting.

Ooh. Right? Where the text lines up with what's happening in the music. And I'm almost like, I caught my breath. And I was like, oh my gosh, is that going to be there on time? And then am I missing something? And the music and the words perfectly match. Good job, Zach.

Yeah, I plan. No, I mean, so. Yeah, I will just say like structurally, I feel like, okay, I can tell just by, and this is also just like, now we're going to dip into improv language, I can tell by his physical presence he wants to add to this song. Because I'm thinking it can just be this nurse by yourself. So then I am starting to get the sense that maybe he wants into it, which is why I make the choice to double up on a verse instead of adding a chorus because I'm like, okay, well maybe we're just going to, almost, we're going to duet this, but they're going to be in separate

spaces. So maybe I'll let him, maybe we'll get to a chorus so late. I'll let him set maybe a one verse because I've already done two, so this is getting pretty long. And then we'll meet on a chorus once I know how he's feeling. But that's also just like the improv world of me seeing, oh, he wants in this song. Okay, great. Be in this song. That means I'm not going to set a chorus yet because I don't know what your move is. He's just jealous and he wants to sing. Which I should know. Are you cueing Scott to give you a second verse? No. He's just listening. I mean, she is. I mean, she is. is not like with her hands or body or anything, but like by the musical choice she's making.

I'm like, you're aiming to do a verse. Why would you choose to do a chorus that way? Like it's sort of that thing of like once you've heard a thousand musicals, you kind of have a template. Yeah. And I almost backed myself into a tagline structure,

which we don't almost ever do. Which is what I abandoned because he made a verse. Which is why I came in because I was like, we're doing a traditional pop song. There's probably no tagline. Probably a chorus. But tagline is on. are hard. Well, they're hard because, like, I feel like we find choruses more satisfying.

And for our... Wait, what do we mean by a tagline? So tagline is no chorus. That's like... Somewhere over the rainbow. I did it my way. New York, New York. New York. Surfing safari. These are like ABA songs. Yeah, yeah. Cool. Oh, yeah. And in the more abstract, it's just a... You sing a verse and you either begin it the same every time or you end it the same every time. And that's the only sort of repeating. Right. Yeah, and I feel like Zach and I land because of trying to like set up rhymes for ourselves or rhymes for each other or rhymes for a guest.

We set up sometimes this world where we sing verses that have a lot of parallelism but aren't taglines. Like I was doing it in that song where I was like, and I'm walking na da da da da da da. And I'm kind of saying the same kind of line again. Like I'm giving myself something that is like an approximation of a tagline only to them be like, no, mine is a chorus. You're either going to be like da-da-da-da-da-da-da. Or you're going to go da-da-da-da-da. And then I'll be like, okay, one or the other. Exactly.

We're done or not. So it's these subtle cues that you've done for enough times that you know exactly where they're going. Well, like music has done, like two. Like, we're just ripping. It's, I mean, like a lot of what we do, because we have studied some music theory between the two of us,

but it's mostly very intuitive. Right. It's mostly kind of like, Scott, like, Scott play something. Like, you can tell the vibe of what you can have not studied music at all. You don't know whether he's playing. Like, you don't know what major chords are. You don't know what minor chords are. You know what minor chords are.

You know. what the emotional sort of impact of this song is. You even know if you're thinking of a musical, you know, like, this feels like a sunny spring morning, maybe after a fight where people are trying to see a brand new day. You know, like you start to see visuals. I see a rowboat and a family of little ducks. Why did I say too much last night? Oh, what the fuck?

The classic setup of that rhyme where you have to end on the joke. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, you start to see pictures also where you want to set where we are. And then because we were trying to give ourselves the challenge of making that sound more poppy, I was like, this bridge, the nurse is just going to say, she's going to be like emotional high. She's going to say like one word. It's not going to matter.

It's going to be more about like her emotional like explosion of being lonely at night and saying like, oh, oh, it's night. Not like, I need this information to matter. Yeah. Which is also great when you have. two people singing at the same time. But it's very hard to track two narratives going on and changing at the same time. So if one person is doing more wordy stuff, the other person should just ooze Oz Knights. Speaking of which, can we talk vocal harmonies for a second?

Yeah. Because that's one of the things we love about off book. And now that we're in the room, we can ask like what sometimes, you can sense it's coming. But how do you know who's going to hit what note? I'm almost always the melody. Oh, there we go. I mean, Zach grew up in choir being a tenor, so his ear is a million times more developed than mine, who was a soprano who always got to sing the melody. I've gotten way better in the last five years as we've done a lot more musical improv together.

But I would say most of the time, I'm holding the melody. And then if I'm harmonizing, I'm pulling a real simple third. Yeah. I mean, you can't, it's tricky. Like, other than just like holding the baseline over and over and over again, it's most, Mostly, it's a lot of parallel. It's a lot of me either jumping up above Jessica, below Jessica, and moving where she is.

And I think you do end up singing more harmonies than you think these days. Well, again, like, all of this is to say none of these thoughts are actively happening in the moment. It's just kind of like wild fly-by, you know, seat of our pants. But we love tight arms. We love them.

I love arms. I'm always really happy when I think, when I do one that is not just a parallel of what the melody is that's different. It's satisfying. Yeah. Oh, yeah. It's also like, I am,

I am better at, I am better at, I'm okay at singing, I'm good at singing harmonies. Like, I take pride in that. Like, that's just where my particular skill set lies. You're great at singing. Oh, thanks. I'm no you. Okay, so we've had the opening number. We've had the I Want song.

We've had the villains entrance. We've had a sort of pop interlude. Yeah, now's our favorite part. Okay. Yeah. Can all these hate cafeteria workers? Yeah. Can you get in here for a second?

Guys, what? Are you late? I'm late. It's okay. Come in the door. You're here. Okay. I was there on time.

I know. I'm counting he was on time. I'm on time, everyone. I want everyone to know that. I've also been on time. I've also been on time. Mary's on time too. I've been on time.

Yeah, I know, guys. You're all on time. Are you here? Has the meetings? I'm just showing up now. Okay. I'm late. Okay.

Well, I do have to say then. Barnaby is late. Barnaby is late. But Stephen, you're on touch? was on time. Mary's on time. Mary's also on time. All right.

We can't go through this every time. In fact, in my head, I actually thought of this meeting as 12, 15, because I thought at least 15 minutes we're going to talk about who's on time. Okay, then Barnaby was on time. The meeting doesn't start until 1215, then Barnaby was on time. Barnaby, you were in my head, so I feel like you should still count this as trying to do better about being on time. Is this a meeting about how Barnaby's always late?

No, we wouldn't, I would do that in a much more calm one-to-one. Thank you. Barnaby, I wouldn't shame you in front of your colleagues. I don't know life is hard. I know. I'm not here to make it harder. I've made that abundantly. How haven't I made that perfectly clear?

No, you're doing great. You know, like the way that you always sort of like give people extra food even if they don't want it? Well, yeah. Or if they do want it and can't pay for it. Yeah. Life's already going to rain on your parade. Why not make it an easier day? Oh no, oh no.

I'm not here to make it. Hard. Sometimes life kicks you out and you're very, very late and there is some doubt as to when the meeting was starting, because life is hard. To sit on the stool so you stand by the stool and hope next time. Am I late? Yeah. Did you start the meeting without me? Francois, you are late and I mean we were kind of starting the meeting.

We were kind of starting like a prelude to the meeting. Okay. Wait, so the meeting is not begun yet? Well, it kind of had. Okay. I'm counting you late, but, you know, I'm not going to be mad about it. Okay. The meeting has started, and I am on time.

Everyone knows that I am here. Do not worry about Francois, even though life is so hard. Oh, it's like you were at the meeting the whole time. I, yes, Stephen called me on speakerphone. I think he actually dialed me and didn't even know. Oh, is that true? Yeah, you should hang up right now. Laughing so hard

Sorry, I'm late Yeah, you are late I was supposed to bring all the rice and apples For the cafeteria We were out of rice and apples Oh, thank you for getting that, Michael Oh no, I'm sorry, that's what I came to say I didn't bring any rice or apples

Michael, you're late and you didn't bring them Well, the distributor was late Oh, sorry, I'm here, apples! Okay, I feel like this maybe is outside my purview The distributor is here at the meeting, Yeah, this guy ran away from me. Yeah, I ran away because he wasn't there and I just sort of left. Yeah, no, I was right behind you.

You ran for me. Try to start a meeting on time and be nice. You asked to start the meeting once or twice. Why do you? Like a pallet cleanser. We don't want to be like, um, adhering to the plot at every moment. Sometimes you just want to be in the world and meet some, especially I think because we're trying to live in a comedy,

podcast world. Yeah. Yeah. We want to get away and do silly. Funs and games for a bit. Funds and games. And funds and games not involving any of the central characters from the musical. Sometimes they'll come back.

Sometimes they won't. Yeah. So if we stick with The Little Mermaid, this is like under the sea or something. This is. Yeah, this undersea. It's Le Poisson for sure. Yeah, it's hard le Poisson. It's just like, there's a crab in a pot and he's probably going to die.

But he doesn't. But he doesn't. And it's in the world and it's like calling back rice and. apples, but it's not really plot driven. Right, right. Yeah, it takes place in the world, but it's sort of separate from the world. I feel like in every musical, there's like this song. If you listen to like any soundtrack, like all the way through, it's kind of like,

main characters need to like take a breath and they have like supporting kind of like comic relief types that come out and sing like a wacky song and it really doesn't drive the plot forward at all. Just sort of like a fun, weird song that can happen like maybe in the middle of the first act or maybe even sometimes like right when you come back from the second act, it's like, Like, I don't know, depends. Brush up your Shakespeare. Yeah, just, there's always one.

I mean, I don't want to say, I don't want to say it's like my least favorite song of a, like, in a soundtrack, like listening through. But sometimes it can be like, I don't know. I think it's less fun of a listen and more fun of a watch. It's like probably going to be something musically simpler. And, and but watching it, it's probably, depending on how intense your story is, it's probably like a needed respite to kind of you recharge. We can't just hit that one note the whole time. Would this be King George and Hanson? Yes, exactly.

Which we get three times. Which is a great comedic runner. I mean, he's doing three beats. Comedy comes in three. He's like, I think the comedy and music pattern overlap is why this is so satisfying for our brains. It's that, like, oh, yeah, we know they both are like pattern-based and they're both secretly math. Secretly math. I'll also say from like a comedy and improv perspective, it's nice to have characters where they don't alter the world too much.

you like a much longer leash with what you can do to them and what like who they are, what their backstory is doesn't really matter so much. So like this guy can be like, oh, this is the butcher who just got his hand bit off by an alligator. And like that would be a big deal if he was the main character in a musical. Yeah, we'd have to really deal with that. We have to like deal with that. But if it's the fifth guy late for the meeting, we could be like, yeah, all right, moving on.

I guess George is here and he has this alligator accident and that's not great, but whatever. Yeah. This is great. Because not only did you blow up the world by introducing a million characters, which I've completely lost track of. Sure. But you also musically totally throw us a bow and where it's like, no, we're cutting out in the middle. And it was extremely satisfying.

If music is math, you've just broken my expectation. Yeah. That's the, like, Scott gets to mess with us by doing key changes. We get to mess with Scott's by being like, stop, stop, stop for a second. Someone needs to enter. It's probably Francois. I have a dumb joke and it's probably a French guy. Yeah.

No, I mean, you raise a good plan. I mean, musicals are visual. Like they're all their song and dance. And so you have to, in doing a podcast, you have to kind of make up for that a little bit. Yeah. And I think you said something that I feel like we didn't necessarily ever state as a goal where we're like, let's make sure we're world building type improvisers. I think that's just something that Zach and I happened to both like doing and happened to both, you know, was a commonality that started our partnership was like, you know, and also there should be like this random song where this or all this happens. and there's like this world building

and let's like lay on these specifics and let's not worry about, you know, let's build out the world, let's be absurd and fast. And then you imagine the choreography. Yeah, of course. Oftentimes these songs are structurally very different too. We may have said this already, but these are often like rapid fire,

not structurally musically, structurally like lyrically. Like they will just be sort of a series of hurdles that Jess and I are setting up for each other and be like, and now list things in a, This fruit bowl, while it has so many kinds of fruit. It's got bananas and peaches and oranges and grapes and melons to melons. The melons they are great. It also has persimmons and kiwis and oo, so many different kinds of fruit.

I think that you named all the fruits I cannot think of one single fruit, so I will say that also next there is a vegetable bowl. We have potatoes and radishes and celery and carrots. Too many carrots I can hardly even bear it. We also have some brussels and parsnips. Oh, a parsnip, it's like a radish, does the trick, it's spicy like a carrot, and it grows like a root, but eat too much of those brussels, and they'll give you the toots. And both bowls have tomatoes, because no one knows where they go. Yeah, it's like that.

Well, I love that too, because it's like, that's maybe another difference between musical theater and pop. Like, in musical theater, it's so much about showing off lyrical dexterity, creative, rhyme, surprising kind of musical, lyrical decisions in pop. like, that's not, not only does it not, is it not invested in that? It's like, if you're too clever in a pop song, it's not good. It's not, it doesn't help anyone. It takes listeners out of the experience. And I think that's because, I mean, with the exception of understanding that pop stars have

persona, part of the appeal is that it's a real person and we have the benefit or we have the difference of being from behind a character. So if a character is clever, we're not like mad at that, you know what I mean? We're like, that's that character. If a person's clever. If a person's, I'm like, what are you trying to prove? Who are you? Yeah.

Who are you even? But like a lyric, like very tiny, Sonheim wrote the lyrics for West Side Story. It was one of his, like, first big jobs. And he has, like, the very off-booking rap. I mean, that is to say we have a very, we, Sondheim rap. But, like, to say, I like the Isle of Manhattan,

smoke on your pipe and put that in. Yeah. It's like, okay, that's, that tiny, like, I think like hit musical theater for like 30 years because that wordplay and also that's something that we're doing where the joke is second, you know, Manhattan's not the funny part. Smoke on your pipe and put that in is the funny part so it has to go second. Like that line sucks if it's smoke on your pipe and put that in that I like the island Manhattan.

A wild thing that would be. Terrible. Whereas in pop you can have a hit song that goes every. body rock your body. Yeah. And that's like perfectly. Black Street is back, to be fair. I mean, that doesn't like, ever go over there.

Not only does, yeah, no, I mean, that doesn't, you listen then. You're like, oh, that's not a very creative rhyme, like, tis tis. You're just like, oh, yeah, this is, this is beyond. It's about my intellect. It's not about meaning. It's a feeling. Because I feel like in pop music, I mean, sometimes you'll be struck by the poincy of lyrics. But for me, it's like the lyrics, the voice is an instrument.

And so it is just like the sound. My husband doesn't really like rap music. And when I saw Kendrick Lamar at FYF, I was like, you would love that he just sounds like a drum. Like just like if you didn't know what he was saying, the way that he is a human can put words together. It sounds like an instrument. Like it sounds, it has like its own sound. So yeah. So that's interesting.

Like maybe in some ways hip hop and musical theater have more in common today than like hip hop. and, I mean, then musical theater and pop music do? Well, you're boiling man more. I think so. Yeah, I feel like the cheekiness of rhyme has started to make its way into musical theater. And I think, like, the cheekiness of rhyme is one of the best parts of hip-hop.

You know, like, they're subverting expectations of rhyme all the time. They're, like, leaning into slants and, you know. I will say in terms of what is closer to comedy, rap is by far the genre that has, like, the most quote unquote jokes baked into it. It's like the Lonely Island is walking a very fine line between like what is a song written to be a joke and like how many of their lyrics would not sound out of place.

Because I think like that's part of part of what makes good rappers good is it like like cleverness and fineness. And so that those two lines of comedy and rap are certainly closer together. Okay. So we're talking with like defying expectations and what kind of. Fun gravity. Sorry. Zach was he can say big.

That was just for Dana. It was for me. We will sometimes end songs in disco. Because it's very funny to wait to end a song. So good. Are you familiar with Wicked? I am not. That's how Define Gravity ends.

Is it with Nina Manzell going? Is this a satisfying? Have you never heard of Defying Gravity? No. So satisfying. You got to listen. We've done some faky. We've called it back in a couple of things.

Which makes me so happy. It gets so excited. I know I've stolen like this thing a million times from that song. That song is a tour de force performance by Adina Mendel. We're going to listen to it on the car. But you had a thing to say and I totally drew out this. Which by the way, welcome to what it is like to be Jessica. I'm trying to do this podcast.

Very upro-pro, because we have like gone in a thousand directions from our musical. Yes. And the thing that totally stunned me the first time, I heard your show was that the whole thing connects and you bring things back from the end where we go right back to the very beginning and everything sort of closes up. So my question to you is do you know where we go next right now? Like do you both you know exactly where we go? No.

No. I think we both know that there's probably a couple options. Okay. And then one of us will make a move or the guests will make a move. But I feel like we would just, okay, so that song would end. You made my life. so hard. Oh, Curtis, I never see you hear this late.

Hmm. I thought you were sleeping in the hospital director's room. Oh, yes. I just have to lock some of the doors forever. What? I'm just going to kind of close this one. Curtis. This is an escape room now.

The hospital? Oh, yeah, sorry. The whole thing is an escape room now. And when were you going to? tell the staff or the people who come here. They're sort of part of it. See, we couldn't legally take them out because they're blah blah blah, blah,

patient's bill of rights. We have to let them be alive and on life support or whatever. But we need to make more money in this space, Barbara. Don't you understand? If we don't make more money, then how will the hospital director buy his

second yacht? Curtis. He wants it very badly, Barbara. He'll stop it. Nothing to get it. You can't possibly care about if he gets a second yacht or not? Has he ever let you on a yacht? No. Well, then why would it matter to you if he gets a second yacht?

I just want him to be happy. Don't you ever have someone that you care about? And even though they ignore you, even though they walk away from you down a hallway and they leave their trash behind in your hands, you still care about them and you don't know why? Don't you have that, Barbara? Wow. I bet you don't. I bet only I have that. But do you, Barbara?

I mean, yeah, I do. A person you do anything for? Yeah. A person for home you'd lock this hospital door. No. Even though it means a bunch of people are probably going to die. He's your special guy. Wouldn't you do that, Barbara? Are we the same?

No. I mean, yes, once in my life. I've been left with trash But I would never lock up the hospital door I would never do something so brash And no I know he wouldn't be worthy He wouldn't be my special guy If it meant lots of people would die

Sometimes love Makes you do crazy things Like going to a hospital's finances and really just pull all the strings and really just funnel a bunch of money into places it shouldn't be, but you do it for him. No. Because the way he makes you feel

for your special guy, we're the same. No. You can't let all these people die. Think what is good and think what is not. You can't care about it. A second yacht, a second ship away from the shore. Curtis, you have to want something more.

You shouldn't put your heart in someone's hands if you don't care first or understand that lots of people will die. A lot of people will die. Then he's not your special guy. If it means lots of people will die, lots of people will die. Lots of people will die. Special guy. Curtis, stop.

Don't put me in this room. I'm just gonna put you in the room. No, Curtis! Lock the door! Curtis! From the cafeteria you locked her in, It's okay, she'll be fine. I'm sure she'll have lots of fun.

We'll begin with her just hanging out in there and everything will be okay. And then Curtis and his special guy will go on a special date because he's your special... Because he's your... Because he's... Oh, I can't do it. Curtis, how's it going? Oh, um, hello, hospital director.

I've locked all the doors. Good. Can I ask you a question? Maybe. Ask it and then I'll decide if I'm going to act like it happened. Why have I never been on one of your yachts? I only have one, as you know. If you had two, I definitely get to be on one of them, right?

I don't know. Probably not. But they're really big, right? I don't think you have the right kind of shoes. What sort of shoes do you need? You have to have white bodice? You have white bodice. You can't have any black bottom.

No, they're black bottom. It will scuff my ship. What if I paint them white? No, that's not the same. It's going to chip off. What if I walk in mayonnaise? No, that's disgusting, Curtis. I don't know how to make the bottom of shoes white.

You buy white bottom shoes. There are shoes that have white on the bottom? Yes, you imbecile. There's top siders. They're sparries made it exactly for being on the top of a ship. And if you don't have them, you can't be in my yacht, and I'm sure you don't have them. I'm going to ask one more question. Okay.

You're mean to me because you love me deep down, right? Absolutely not. Okay, I'll see you later. Where are you going? Just back to unlock a lot of doors here. He's not my special guy. My special guy. Because he's not a special guy.

I didn't see you in this cafeteria. I just had a delicious meal of fresh steamed rice and apples. Well, that's great Dr. Sutton. Thank you for making me take a break. Oh, sure, yeah. No problem. Is that the hospital director out there? Oh, yeah.

I need to go have a word with him, but Barbara, this is the first time I have had a full. full stomach in days, and it's really making me think, I have never properly thanked you for all of the really wonderful things you've done for me. Oh, well, you gave me that cookie on Nurse's Appreciation Day, but thank you. I feel like a cookie on a day, literally when someone is supposed to appreciate you, is the bare minimum. I would, I don't know if this is too forward, but outside of work, I'd like to, I don't know, take you out to dinner sometime, if that'd be okay.

Yeah. Could we go out for lunch? Yeah, let's start with lunch. Could we go out for lunch? Sure. I'd really prefer if we went out for lunch. Because I have a hunch. You have a hunch.

That if we went out for lunch. If we went out for lunch. The date would extend into the night. And we could take a little walk. We could walk around a punch. And then maybe yes, it's dinner time and now yeah I'm made at a cafe But I'm sorry I'm getting ahead of myself

No you're not you're saying A lunch that turns into dinner that turns into life A lunch that turns into a dinner then into a lunch That turns into a dinner and it turns into a dinner Hold on Before I do that Before we make our hearts both full To secure our future first I have to save this hospital

And I knew that you would Hospital director I need you to come with me Okay I've never met someone that I was more sure needed brain surgery Three Do you feel I need to answer a few questions Yes

You feel angry all the time Yes Do you not know why? Yes You feel like you need to hurt people all the time And before my ski accident, I was a very nice man. You were. I was thinking that. Everything changed after your ski accident. I think you may have something wrong with your brain. Do you mind if I just do some quick brain surgery?

Hmm. It would be on me. Yes, it would just be free. For me to do this brain surgery. I like the sound of that. Free surgery. Some would say gratis. I'm just saying you would not have to. pay for this normally expensive brain surgery.

12 hours later. Jesus Christ, I'm tired. It takes a lot of time. It sure does. I hope you don't mind, but we brought you some snacks from the cafeteria, Dr. Sutton. I went up from rice and apples. I brought you some delicious mutton. Oh gosh, I miss the rent fare, and I was so disappointed

that I didn't get to have this mutton. Here you are anointed my favorite delivery guy Oh, thank you so much. Do you work in the cafeteria? I do, yeah. Can I just say the people you work with are fucking nuts? They make it really hard for me. You do a great job.

Thank you for seeing me. Oh, he's coming up. Hospital Director Klein. This is gonna be hard. The recovery process from surgery can take a long time. I want you to take it slow. What was that? I was rubbing my eyes.

Oh yeah, you sure were. Hold on, someone's also cleaning the... also cleaning the window outside. I'm sorry, I'll stop. I'm sorry. No, it's okay. You're just doing your job. How do you feel?

Can this possibly be true? You just helped me escape my dude. I want you to take it slow. You've avoided a fate most tragic. But this is a room that's safe. A room you won't need to escape. I'm sorry, hospital director. There's somewhere I got to be.

I'm prioritizing things that are important to me. And let me do the same. I'll thank you forever more. Now please, Curtis's coming from the door. I was here to make sure you were. on one more to join me for lunch. But yeah, I'll have an ice tea and gosh, I think maybe I'll have a nice tea.

Barbara. How were those 12 hours? I'm so sorry I'm late. No. Being late is rude and it can really derail things if you do it all the time. Honestly, I kind of had a buffer of 15 minutes in my head. Did you get an iced tea?

I got you one. That's perfect. I love iced tea. Me too. What are the chances? I just kind of felt like, This table was missing tea Something was missing for you and...

An appetizer that I think might be nice Do you mind if I order An apple And steam pros Missing The end Wow Nothing's missing

You did it. Nothing, nothing to add. That's magical. At the beginning of the, at the very beginning you said you may or may not be human, and I'm convinced not. Yeah. That is magical. Oh, thank you.

I'm mystified. I mean, we're just having a good time. You have a good time in a very unique, idiotic, a strange way. Yes, yes. And worth mentioning, Jessica and I have done many. Oh, I got many. Yeah, many, many. Thousands of hours.

This is your first time. Yeah. Oh, sorry, many, many hours of tennis. This is our first musical we've done. Is this how it go? Is this a thing? Do it go like that? I'm really glad you did that because I felt like we were going on and on

and you just took us through the whole rest of the musical. What happened? Yeah, I feel like we're, we did get to a point where we're like, okay, well, now maybe we'll momentum through and because we want to chat and chat more of y'all. But yeah, that's basically, you know, you just start putting people together. So like you said, you know exactly the next move is. No, I mean, it could have been Dr. Sutton with the villain,

with the hospital director. It could have been someone like breaking off from the cafeteria. It could have been Curtis with the doctor. It could have been lots of things. I was like, let's get the non-protagonist together. Let's appeal to, I think appealing to a henchman is sort of a trope, understanding why Curtis would be so aligned with, such an evil guy and trying to understand what that is is maybe something fun to explore.

Yeah, I think we really like the idea that villains, that our villains are complicated. They're not like, no one, we have these ideas of like good and evil and like we look at, you know, we look at like these people are evil. But no one, I don't think anyone is the villain in their own story. Everyone thinks they're doing things for the right reasons. Right. Or you had a ski accident. Or you had a ski accident and sounds like, so you need a quick ending.

I mean, that was really interesting to me. because I was like, okay, we started doing surgery. How do we bookend this musical by then ending with surgery again? Maybe we'll get back to like actually being inside a brain. Maybe we'll not. I mean, the idea of the sort of like bookends is less important than how technically you hit all of those things that happen. And we're looking from comedic callbacks and musical callbacks.

Yeah. Which is, I think, improv training and also musical theater structure. where, you know, when you hear a finale, you're going to hear motifs from earlier in the musical. And like something, talking about things we were missing was like the most powerful, like emotional peak we had had had so far. Actually, what was the opening chorus? I was trying to remember it.

This is an opening number. This is an opening number. That's why we couldn't bring it back. This is a closing number. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But when I was asking that question, so you didn't know where the plot was going to go, but you had a sense of like the direction out,

like we had to, the conflict had been set up and you kind of had a sense of where a musical is going to go. I think in the same way that you, if you're watching, you know, any movie and the good guys are like sailing on a ship and there's half an hour left in the movie and you know that the bad guys also have a ship. Like, you can tell you, I can tell you what's going to have. Like the bad guy's ship is going to shoot at the good guy's ship. And it's probably going to look like everything is real bad until it's not. And if, you know, there were a cloud of parrots in Act 1 that it's like, God, I love those cloud of parrots. they're such a harbinger of goodwill.

Like, they're probably going to swoop in and save us when it gets choppy. So do we know what's going on? No. But, like, we don't have the mental space to actually think of plot moves in advance, really, particularly when Jess and I are doing

just shows by ourselves. Because it's really like, I can't not listen to anything she says because that's, she's only got, I am her entire support line here. Right. But do we kind of know? I mean, like, yeah. I think people who know, like, the hero's journey know kind of what's going to happen. And we like the shows that we have that break the rules a little bit more that tell slightly

different stories. And if it wasn't the two of us and maybe we would have built out like a bigger cast of characters where we had more wants that needed to happen. But, you know, we have wants and we have obstacles and that's basically like going to be our spine. So we're going to see some of those wants happen and some of them not. and we're going to have people collide. And then that's a story.

Oh, yeah. That's a story. And then there's redemption at the end. I mean, if you're singing, it has to be redemptive. This is a very funny day. I'm like a painfully happy ending driven. I have osmosed that. There was a period of time in our first like 10 episodes.

I was sort of on a mission to see if I could kill everyone. And I never did. Well, one time I like aggressively no and did him. I was like, And they're all in heaven and it's still okay. And people definitely called out. They're like, Jess will not let it inside.

That doesn't mean that like everything is perfect and resolved. And like everything is cheery. But yeah, when you're making up a song, it's a little, for me, I think it's just harder for me to access the material to make it up if it's not like.

I don't think I want to do it down. Yeah, I just don't want to do it. There's enough downer in the world. Yeah. Like, so it's just, it's going to be like that's my wheelhouse. that's like my personal well that's easier for me to access than if it was like, and that's how health care works.

Like if that was the end of that, I mean, sure, that might like have a place in this world, but that's not, uh, we don't, we don't have a lesson to teach here. We're idiots who make up songs. Yeah. Well, on that note, I mean, what a, you, Charlie, you came in here as a musical neophyte. Now presumably you know everything there is to know about the,

history form and structure of the American musical. Are there any lingering questions we can answer for you before we wrap this up? I definitely learned a lot about the musical. I feel like I have a clearer sense of the structure. I'm still, it's one of these things where sometimes when you know the magic trick, the magic is that much better. It's such an honor to get to see you all do your work. Oh, thanks. It's so fun, too.

I'm just like, I honestly am like, I'm excited to see where the song is going and I have no idea where it's going and neither to you. So I had so much fun with this. I think the lingering question I have is that, you know, Ait and I have been doing this podcast for five years. We break down music. It's fun. It's a lot of fun. But if we wanted to launch off into the world of making improvised musicals,

where do we begin? Or is it just like, it's too late? No. I mean, I think improv training meets music knowledge makes for the strongest player. But there are great players who kind of only have one. of those sides. Like, you know, they have a more built-up right arm than left arm or whatever. They come up from a lot of improv training and have like a great comedic mind and maybe don't

know the musical theater tropes that they're pulling. And like that, the music part is purely intuitive for them. You know, Zach and I started doing musicals when we were children and did them for years and years and years and then both found improv comedy about like our early teens and now I've been doing. So, I mean, we have so. Our careers took left turns. So much like of the time has been.

uniquely positioned to put us like doing this but I think if you're interested in improv comedy to like study that and take classes and then just listen to some soundtracks just to understand the palette that you're playing with obviously rules are made be broken but I think it's super helpful to have some musical theater

reference point just because it is different than pop music to hear a character sing and describe their wants and their desires and maybe lay out plot isn't something you're going to know from just like oh I listen to music music It's a different kind of song structure. Yeah, because someone's going to start an opening that is cell block tango, and it is very atypical of musical improv opening.

And if you don't know what cell block tango is, it's going to be like, why are people whispering disparate words? Why are people getting laughs from sitting in a chair backwards? I think because also Zach and I are like comedians, we want all those laughs. So, you know, the reference point, we don't want to be reference led or restricted by reference. But to make a referential, you shouldn't not have that potential. It's all paint to paint. Yeah, exactly.

You want that tool in your belt. Exactly. Yeah. So, Nate, I'll see you on improv class. All right. Hell, yeah. We didn't get any avant-garde music. There's nothing, there's no atonal music.

Oh. No. I mean, you guys want to improvise a quick 12-tone real fast? I just didn't jump around a bit. I'm trying to think what even would play with that. Sondheim does a little bit, but still falls back into. Yeah. It's so hard when you're-

I think if we intentionally came in aiming at Sondheim, we'd probably do it, but we would never think, arbitrarily choose that horribly confusing genre. Yeah. Yeah. I don't think, yeah. I mean, we got pretty close with some of the cats, like. Yeah.

Scott plays differently when there's no, like, he can give us harder stuff. Oh, this is great. That's a beautiful. I am a ghost. Ghost, ghost, ghost. I'm trying to justify why I would sing a song like that. That's the reason is if I was a ghost. But I mean, that is the nice thing is that if the right guest comes in and is like,

and the ghost that only sings in 12-tone, then they're endowed. It doesn't work because I need all of my expectations to be set up. And I'm just too lost in a total music. Yeah. I think, yeah, there's a lot of, there's a lot. I will say 90% of what I'm doing is predicting where they're going next. where they're like, and I'm going to and I'm like, I hope you sing that note again

and they do or they go and so I do sing and I'm like, oh shit, all right, but we'll figure it out. It makes you fun for Brett because then Brett is now trying to follow the sky that was following us. I always like telling Dana the key. Oh yeah, Brett. Tell me.

You're like, see. I'm like, oh, I'm ready. I could generally make out the root and then I know when the five is coming back. There's a lot of ways to go from. one to five. There's a high-tech version of the show where you guys have mics every time that only talk to each other. Yeah, that's my next step.

Yes, that's it. This has been, this has been switched off book, the Switched on Pop off book. Are you guys going to play some music? Be right back after this break. We're going to take a little break and then we're going to do some more. We'll do more. Make some sounds. Yeah.

All right. But this is the end of the formal switched off book. Everything that comes after this is, it's the no man's time. Welcome back to Switching. The No Man's Land. Look at the No Man's Land. Oh, no, we're going to keep having fun with Switched Off Books. So we have...

We got Charlie on the Mandolin. Yes, that's what that is. Ooh, I love Amanda. We got Nate on the bottom half of the keys, top half. Top half, baby. Scott on the bottom half of the keys. So tell me, this is now your turn to educate me. This is a...

We're going to improvise a bluegrass song. What are the sort of staples, lyrically speaking, of a tone, like, of a bluegrass song. Yeah. Bluegrass is known for what they call

the high lonesome sound. Charlie and I used to play a lot of bluegrass back in the day. So it's the high lonesome sound. It's, it's usually involving, it's usually some kind of tale

of woe, but then there's a catharsis in the chorus. So it's like, you know, maybe you're in jail. No one's going to pay your, You're bail. Great, that's all I need to know.

You got the, you get the jazz. Sometimes there's trains. There's a lot of trains. Yeah. There's like trains. I am a lighthouse. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Jessica, they said you're a train. You're supposed to be a train. I'll show you. I'll show you how to do it. So this is, this is our segment. It's called. Blue grass.

So blue. So grass. Two, three. And train jail. No tractor roll for me. I was just a train sitting in train jail. No freedom can you see. That's just a train, send you train jail.

That's how they go. Nailed it. That's an old-time classic. They're all in jail. Oh, wow. That was amazing. What a true joy to crossover two music pods. Give it up to switch.

Switch on pop. Switch on pop. Switch on pop. And this has been off book. And together, the Transformers. Guess what Transformers are? Two vehicles that can born from another vehicle. I've seen it.

That's how it goes. This has been switched off pop book or some of those words altogether. You can find switched on pop all the place where podcasts are fun. Every place the podcast exists. That's right. So if you're an off book fan and you're like, wait, this was so fun. Yeah. Listen to them, dissect and pull the curtain back on pop music.

It's really great. Similarly, if you are enjoying listening to this beautiful musical, which we will obviously have the whole score for. I mean, it's all composed head of time, right? Yeah, we'll make Scott write it out. Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, that would be available. Thank you, Scott. I don't do anything.

Go back, binge all of the episodes. You invite the best comedians in the business on Deer Show. It is so much fun. It's the most enjoyable. Thank you so much. Give it up for Brett on the guitar. Scott on the keys. Dana on the drums.

Nate also on the keys. Charlie on the mandolin. Okay. Mandolin solo, take a song. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. I hope you enjoyed hearing Offbook as much as I did.

You can subscribe to their podcasts, Offbook, anywhere you get podcasts, and definitely go see them live. It is truly a treat. You're going to love it. Go check out Off Book. And we'll see you again on Tuesday with a brand new episode. And until then, thanks for listening. Attention, Spotify.

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