Switched on Pop - How Charlie Puth honored Whitney Houston for 125 million people (live at Berklee NYC)

Episode Date: April 3, 2026

Charlie Puth joins Switched On Pop in Studio A at Power Station at Berklee NYC, live before a room of current students, ten days after performing the national anthem at Super Bowl 60 and weeks before releasing his fourth album, Whatever's Clever. The conversation is grounded in one question: how do you absorb the music you love and turn it into something that actually sounds like you? Puth traces his national anthem arrangement through a lineage running from Jose Feliciano's 1968 World Series performance to Marvin Gaye's 808-driven 1983 All-Star Game version to Whitney Houston's 1991 Super Bowl rendition. The through-line: citation is letting your influences dissolve into your hands until they become unrecognizable. That principle runs throughout the new record, from the Quincy Jones guitar tone on "Cry" to the Chick Corea quotation buried in "Boy" that Puth didn't realize was there until after writing it. Songs Discussed Bruce Springsteen – "Born in the USA" Madonna – "Like a Virgin" David Bowie – "Let's Dance" Charlie Puth ft. Wiz Khalifa – "See You Again" Charlie Puth – "We Don't Talk Anymore" Charlie Puth – "Attention" Charlie Puth – "Light Switch" Whitney Houston – "The Star-Spangled Banner" Babyface – "Whip Appeal" Jose Feliciano – "The Star-Spangled Banner" Jimi Hendrix – "The Star-Spangled Banner" Marvin Gaye – "The Star-Spangled Banner" Marvin Gaye – "Sexual Healing" Soulja Boy – "Crank That (Soulja Boy)" DeBarge – "Who's Holding Donna Now" Charlie Puth ft. Jeff Goldblum – "Until It Happens to You" Charlie Puth – "Changes" Charlie Puth – "Cry" Kenny G – "Lullaby" SOPHIE – "It's Okay to Cry" Michael Jackson – "Human Nature" Johnny Hates Jazz – "Shattered Dreams" Madonna – "Into the Groove" Joshua Redman – "St. Thomas" Charlie Puth – "Boy" Chick Corea – "Spain" Charlie Puth – "How Long (Has This Been Going On)" Bell Biv DeVoe – "Poison" Elton John – "Don't Let the Sun Go Down on Me" Prince – "When Doves Cry" Schoolly D – "PSK What Does It Mean" Rick Astley – "Never Gonna Give You Up" Charlie Puth – "Beat Yourself Up" Britney Spears – "Lucky" George Benson – "Give Me the Night" No Doubt – "Hella Good" Michael Jackson – "Beat It" Michael Jackson – "Billie Jean" Charlie Puth – "Washed Up" Charlie Puth – "I Used to Be Cringe" Richard Smallwood – "Center of My Joy" Richard Smallwood – "Total Praise" Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

If you're tired of endless scrolling to figure out where to eat, same. I'm Stephanie Wu, editor-in-chief of Eater. We've just launched the new-ish and way better Eater app. It has all the restaurants we love, gives you personalized picks wherever you are, and serves up smarter search results just for you. You can find my list of the best places for martinis and fries in New York City. And save your favorite spots, share lists, follow editors, and book right in the app. the Eater app at Eaterapp.com. It's free for iOS users. Hey, it's Charlie. Back in February, I had

the chance to sit down with Charlie Puth just days after he had sung the national anthem at the Super Bowl, a marvelous performance which honored Whitney Houston and so many other musical greats. Charlie and I sat down in front of the piano. It was a really delightful conversation, and I wanted to play it for you now upon the release of his album, Whatever's Clever. Here is my conversation with Charlie Puth, live at Power Station at Berkeley, NYC. Welcome to Switched on Pop. I'm songwriter, and tonight, Berkeley professor,

Charlie Harding, Charlie Puth, sitting right next to me. First broke out in 2015 with CU again, his collaboration with Liz Khalifa, tribute to Paul Walker, that stayed at number one for 12 weeks. He followed out with a string of hits. We don't talk anymore,

attention, and light switch. But what makes Charlie different from most pop stars is the depth underneath those songs. He has perfect pitch, something roughly one in 10,000 people are born with. He said he said he jazz. piano at the Manhattan School of Music pre-college and then graduated from Berkeley in 2013.

I did, too. With a degree in music production and engineering. Yeah. He writes, arranges and produces his own records. He's the real thing. He's been on Switched on Pop twice before. Yeah. But I wanted to bring him back for two reasons.

First, because here we are tonight in Studio A in Power Station at Berkeley, NYC, where Springsteen's born in the USA, Madonna's like a virgin, and Bowie's Let's Dance were recorded among many, many hit records. This is wholly recording round. And it felt right to bring a Berkeley alum into this room live in front of current students. So that's the first reason. More importantly, we're catching Charlie at an inflection point

in your life and your career. Ten days ago, you performed the national anthem at Super Bowl 60. Accompanying yourself on a Rhodes keyboard with a choir and orchestra behind you, delivering an arrangement that was built from scratch to honor Whitney Houston's iconic rendition. At the end of March,

you're going to be releasing your fourth album, whatever's clever. Around the same time, you and your wife are expecting your first child. And then you're embarking on a world tour. You're going to come here in New York City, play MSG. Yeah, not long after.

Yeah. So to millions of fans online, Charlie is the pop professor. Through your viral videos, you pull back the curtain on how music works, the theory, the emotion, the craft. And you can hear, the same instinct and everything that you do in your music, the way that you arranged the anthem,

the way that you build a pop song from jazz harmony and pop structure. So tonight, I want to talk together about something I think everyone in this room is working through. How do you absorb music that you love, whether it be jazz, classical pop, all of it, and turn it into something that actually sounds like you. So please join me in welcoming Charlie Puth. That's lovely. Thank you. Wow. Thank you. Let's start at the Super Bowl. Yes. You posted about the performance that you wanted to honor when you Houston. When did you first get the call and at what point did you know what you wanted to do with it?

I don't know about all of y'all, but I use music as a manifestation tool where I have a journal and like a notebook, the notebook that you're like a moleskin notebook and I write down things that I want to accomplish. But for me, what's most effective is just if it's something, if it's a music manifestation, I simply just make a demo. And I've always wanted to perform the National Anthem, but I was, I always, I was asked to perform it here. I said, no, here, I said, no, I'm holding it out for the Super Bowl.

Because if I'm going to do it, I'm only going to do it one time in my life. I'm never going to do it again. And it's going to be the best thing ever. And I told myself, okay, that's what I'm going to do. This is like a year prior, and that's what's going to happen. and I'm going to record a little demo with that intro. And I'm just going to keep it to myself. I'm not going to show it to my mom.

I'm not going to show it to anybody. And I listened to it over and over and over again. And then I broke my rule one day, six months later, and I played it for my manager. And she played it for someone at Rock Nation. And I don't know if they, I think they had their heart set on somebody, but they heard mine.

and they called her back crying and said that Charlie has to do it. She didn't tell me. I guess she knew that. And then as I was about to go on stage at the blue note, which is over there, I think. And I was sitting right here. I was at that first night. Yeah. And I wanted to tell you so badly, but I couldn't.

Wow. So, yeah, it's a result of being persistent and musically manifest. Yeah, you can word anything if you just verb it. That works. I'm not good at talking unless there's like a piano. We've got the piano right here. Musical manifestation. See, that's how you talk.

Okay, I want to go through some of the arrangement if that's all right. Yeah, the arrangement. I love how jazzy it is, but it's just like it's, it's on the brink of not being too, like not going overboard, just like a little bit. Those first chords. You said that that was something you started with this little intro. I feel like so much is being painted in just that introduction. Can you play it and tell us about it?

So I do a little, I actually take the chorus a little down. Just something slightly unexpected, but expected from all of y'all, because that's y'all shit. It's like, it's a very Berkeley thing to do. Something very gosply, but like not too much. You begin by borrowing from the minor key, I think.

I don't know the name. I don't know secondary domen. I don't know any of that stuff. I always failed those classes at Berkeley. It's just under your fingers. It's just whatever felt right. That's you. I'm going to let you name everything.

Okay. But then after that kind of complicated moment, then you go, and then you add it like, Oh, crunchy. I said I was never going to perform it again. But this is like a private, semi-private thing. We only got like a nationally syndicated thing going on here. How do you go about?

building out some of these this first progression. I mean, you said you were inspired by the Whitney Houston rendition. Yeah. Like, how are you approaching making this? Well, if I, if I'm, if I remember the Whitney, have you all heard the Whitney Houston version? It's just, it's the best one. 91 Super Bowl, won the best. She goes, like, like, arm, like baby face chords. Like, all of that was in her arrangement. I'm not going to bite that, like, all of that. Right. I'm just going to gently nod to it. So if I try to organize my thoughts here, mine is...

Yeah. That was the coolest part of the night. But all of this, I mean, I can play like all these chords all day. It has everything to do with my influences. You hear a song like Whip Appeal, Babyface? Babyface came on the first night. On the, I believe, on the first night.

He performed in the first night of the blue note when I saw you, yeah. Do you all know of Whip Appeal by Baby? Whatever you want. Charlie, we've got the whippoor peel So work it on me It's better than love Sweet as can be

You got the whippoor peel Keep on whipping on me Whatever you want It's all right with me Charlie we share a name and I am blushing right now You can't sing it's too much I was like, you know what I mean, but like those chords, like I don't even need to sing. That does something to you.

Yellow Jackets. You listen to Spirit of the West. You listen to Snarky Puppy. Have you all ever seen that live video before? Unbelievable. Like, I'm not even singing. There's no lyrics there. It's just, that reminds me the first time like walking down Boylston.

and go into symphony mart and getting like a synthetic marijuana. You turned out okay. I was like, I'm not, no. But like that's what you were listening to. It's like chords. You can evoke so much emotion without singing anything. And like what's more interesting to you? Or they sound better on that Hammond over there.

Damn, that's a nice organ. Yes, the melody. and the lyrics are important, but it all, there's a difference between an A minor and a little like that, whatever the fuck that is. It's like, it's, it just does something, the rubbing. We've talked about that before. It sounds like these chords are just sort of in you. This is the language that you like to speak. That is the short answer. Yeah. They are in me. And I wanted to honor the late great Whitney Houston. And I wanted to honor all of my influences, but without like, naming all of them, you just include them all in two minutes.

It's part of a very important lineage. One of the things that Whitney does is that she performs it in 4-4. The original Star-Spangled Banner is in C44. See, I didn't even realize that. And that goes back to where one of the first versions is Jose Ficiano performs at the 1968 World Series, and he plays like a folk version. And this version was considered incredibly controversial because he was a blind Puerto Rican folk singer, folk music was seen as highly political, and that he changed the

national anthem was a sign of protest. He said that he just wanted to have people listen to it because people might tire of the you know the original. What is it with Puerto Rico like the bad bunny there was all this outrage at the like I know I don't understand it. Well so you've entered into this long lineage of Jose Fulciano then Hendrix plays at the at Woodstock. He does it in 4-4. Yeah. And then Whitney Houston was inspired by Marvin Gaye who performed at the 83 All-Stars game right and he played it in 4-4 and he has the 808 drum machine behind him. what's so proud He had the twilight So dope, the confidence. Yeah, so he's got the 808 drum machine Sexual Healing had come out

Which used to the same sound And then so Whitney in some ways is honoring Marvin Gay's version Again, it's in 4-4 And so you're now part of this much longer A lineage of the performance Of the National Anthem. I just, I think the way from music to progress

You have to kind of piss some people off sometimes. You want to make them understand not understand why they're so angry because you want them to like it too I'm angry but I'm dancing like that's that's like how like I remember hearing crank that soldier boy from the first time in 2007

and every every hip hop record was like a like a party like a rock star was like above 120 because it was I don't know like it was like you know synths and it was a lot of that world and then in the south they were Everyone was like, what is this bullshit? I think Ice Cube or Ice T when I was like, this guy single-handedly ruined hip-hop.

I think T-Pain went on a podcast one time and said the Usher went up to him and said, you ruined a lot of stuff for us. How disrespectful is that? That's like, that's insane. T-Pain was so innovative with his use of like the, the, the, ah! It was used as an instrument as an effect. That's how the pros do autotune? That's how I was demonstrating it just now.

But to my point, anything great that's ever been made has usually pissed a couple of people off. It's just kind of a great performance. Because it's not comfortable, but it's our job to make it slightly comfortable. So they're not completely pissed off. You know what I mean? Yeah.

I want to go back to your problem. performance a little bit more. Okay. Because in addition to you, you have some really interesting collaborators. First, you mentioned Kenny G. Let me play the clip. Right here. He flew from Mexico to play that.

Really? Yeah. I think a lot of people would fly from around the world to maybe get to play on that moment. The piece opens up from there. You have the Oakland Interfaith Gospel Choir, the Sainted Choir, and the Color of Noise Orchestra. they all come in. Let's hear them for a second.

They wouldn't let you do that live. No, no, I didn't have time to do it. But like a, that chord is from, and I'll get off chords, I promise. No, no, no, I love the chords. Everybody's telling me, you'll be over hurting, and surely. You ever heard Who's Holding Donna now by El DeBarge?

Oh, yeah. You know that song? Sometimes a love won't let go. Nah, nah, nah, nah. Everybody's telling me, uh, that, uh, all of those are in the national anthem, like, rendition. And, oh, it's so cold here. And I keep wondering who's holding Donna now. And I keep wondering what magic can be found to turn me back in no one.

Now, that, like, you're looking at me like, I'm holding Donna. This is getting very romantic here. It's just like, I'm in love with like, like, that's, I don't know what, does anybody know what that's called? I don't, but like, I just, it makes me feel something. Okay. Yeah. You got to make people feel something with these other collaborators. How did you go about arranging and working with them?

Why did you want to bring them in? Well, it was very easy, too, because they're so talented. Jeff Goldblum is on the record. And he doesn't sing anything melodic. It's more of like a passage. We looped the eight bars over and over again. And he's like, well, boys. That's a terrible Jeff Goldblum impression,

but you have to listen to it. The song is called until it happens to you, and it's about looking up to somebody who's been there for you, almost like a father figure, your entire life. And for the first time you're seeing them go through a hardship, and for the first time you have to help them

through something like they've helped you through your entire life. And I said, Jeff, why don't you, he was in like a room just like that. Control room, the control room. And I was like, Jeff, just speak to me like you to your kids and then I would find out that he actually does have a son named Charlie. Love that. And he's making everyone in the studio cry just from words and the chords are just...

So that, I mean, it's easy to make what, in my opinion, is great music when you have great artists involved. Okay, so hold on. I think you're foreshadowing something we might not all know, which is that the collaborators that you had performing the national anthem are also your collaborators on your album. Oh, I thought you were talking about the collaborator. I'm just getting too excited right now. Well, yes, some of them are on changes.

My song changes. There's a choir and an orchestra throughout the entire album, but they are on the album as well. So the reason why you see them on the... And did you arrange for them, or how did that collaboration happen? Adam Blackstone helped me put the choir arrangement together. I communicated to him like just verbally. He was such a genius that I was just able to be like,

I want to sound like a giant hug. And he was like, I got you. And he put the... choir map together and then we just we for the for the Super Bowl you have like one line that's pre-recorded just because it's the stadium you have like one background part and they sing on top of that there the mics are on but they sing on top of so it sounds like thicker because a lot could get lost in translation in such a big room like that and he handled that so wonderfully and Steve Hackman was a

wonderful string arranger Juilliard Julia kid and we sat at Finale or Sabalius, wherever the fuck it's called now. And I was like, I want these strings. And he added the, one of the strings did, because he can hear something and transcribe it. I can't really do that. I actually don't even really know how to read music anymore. It's so bad.

But he does. And I would just play it in the MIDI and he'd transcribe it. How far out are you from the actual performance of this thing as you're arranging in? How much do you actually get to practice with your collaborators? Oh, we practiced on the field. Wow. Just the night before. Wow.

And they were like, okay. Everyone are pros. Yeah, we played it ten times. And they put the stickers over everybody's phone because everybody was trying to figure out how long it was. It was like presidential security. It was insane. And the tenth time they did the flyover on the very last one. In all honesty, it was okay, the tenth time.

But the reason why you see me like looking up to the sky, I'm like, wow, it's because I'm thinking, wow, they fucking nailed it. Like, right on the D major chord, you hear them. Because at rehearsal, it was like, D major chord, then. But they got, I was like, wow, that was perfect. I think the jets were in your key. The jets were like automated to Pro Tools, I swear.

It was crazy. How about those last chords? Can you play us those final chords? You close it up? It's very, very Baptist church. What did I do? And I could have easily done that, but I was an asshole. I didn't.

It's like, because one of my all-time favorite performances is Elton John playing Don't Let the Sun go down on me in Sydney, Australia. And... Full orchestra choir. It's like triumphant. It's just that extra G just does something to you. So you do this sort of rising, again, borrowing from the other, from the minor, which is the same place you had started from. I didn't even know that.

There you go. I'm just going. When I wrote, when I did the demo just for myself so I could remember it, I just, it was the first thing I played. And I was like, I'm going to throw everything in the kitchen sink into this arrangement. I think it's also, it's similar, you do more, but I believe it's how Hendricks also ends his national anthem. So maybe he was the first to do that. He may have been.

That's so interesting. He might have like, mm, because it's anticipation, you know, like there's songwriters in here, right? Yeah, like you know,

like when you're choosing the right kind of chord and you're pairing it with the right lyric, you want the chord to, you want it to feel. like the lyric and this doesn't feel like it's about to go on it feels like it's about to end I wish I could eloquently more I know that's a C D and E but I have a very rudimental understanding of the actual names of the chords but it's all just like feeling like you can wear as songwriters we can all guide emotions where they

need to be for a group of people like without even saying anything we can just play our instruments and it can we can really like convey something one of things I noted about this performance is that it really folded in a lot of your current moment, which is where I want to go. It had your visual aesthetic. Yeah. All the harmonic language. Yeah.

Your collaborators, the orchestra, the choirs, Kenny G. Yeah. It felt like kind of a preview of where you're heading. Manifestation. Yeah. Oh. Musical manifestation. Let's get into some of the new project.

I want to listen to one of your singles you've got out right now. Sure. Called Cry. You got to do the Kenny G solo. it's it's coming up it's sorry sorry I just get excited but your favorite part yeah my favorite part because I was at

in and out when he sent it to me no way and you know how I got it okay music music I'm so comfy but this is so awkward for me music manifestation I took and I YouTube searched because Blood Pop who produced the record

with me was like we should get Kenny G on it I'm like I was like can we do that. He was like, well, you are you. I'm like, what does that mean? He was like, you just call him. I'm like, I don't have his number. Like, well, let's get it then. And I was like, okay, musical manifestation. Go to YouTube.com and

type in Kenny G. Acapella. And I found some song called Lullaby. And I talked about this somewhere. But I melodined. I isolated all the notes and melodined it to like, just like something I could give to Kenny G to number one prove how much I

wanted him part of this record. but just to see how it landed, how it sounded, and maybe he'd want to beat it. And then it somehow got to him the next day. And then he was like, oh, like this, I'm going to do better than your bullshit melodine version. And he'd play it. So you took another one of his solos

and re-harmonized it into your song. Am I getting that right? No, you're correct. I reharmed one of his songs and put it against my song just to prove that it deserved a soprano saxophone. and solo from Kenny G. Because it's kind of funny, but it's also so good.

All right, let's listen to the solo. My mind was blown. Definitely makes you feel something. Yeah. So I want to... Like, it's almost cheesy, but like it just goes so over the top that it just like becomes not. Why should we cry? Because none of us in here, especially as songwriters, those in the music industry should be

afraid of showing your emotions. Any time that I've never been fully open in my music, the songs never resonated, meaning it wasn't as big as I could have been. But when I really poured my heart into some chords and really was honest about what I was singing about, it's always resonated with other people who wanted to hear music that was honest.

So you shouldn't be afraid to show emotion, A.K. you don't have to be afraid to cry. Yeah. Countering the sort of the common narrative that you've got to hold it back. Absolutely. Yeah. It's okay to cry. There's Sophie, who was the best producers of all time past in 2019. She had a song called It's Okay to Cry.

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who's coming into the United States at any given time. The view on immigration from the bottom up instead of the top down. That's this week on America Actually, every Saturday in your audio and video feeds. Let's talk more about citation. We'll get more into it, but one of the things you learn when you go

to Berkeley and you've studied jazz is that it's a style of music that it's more than just reference. Oftentimes, jazz musicians will be in a whole lineage of this is who I studied under, this is what I do, and in a real sort of like jazz combo live scenario,

you might even cite in your solo other music. One thing that I really like about listening and chatting with you is that we'll be talking about national anthem and then you're off on some other 90s R&B that I had no idea was in there. Yeah. There's constant citation going on in your music. Absolutely. Yeah. And it's just a way of me paying respect to the greats that came before me. I have a song called Boy, which is one of the most, the hardest songs to play. I play this ungodly hard solo that, you know, that,

The Chick-Corea Spain You're putting Spain and boy Yeah I mean It was Everyone started humming it It was It was The choice of sound

The roads It was all I don't even know how to play it that well But I'm influenced I was influenced by that song And what's funny is I didn't even realize Until after I wasn't thinking

Well now I'm gonna rip off Chick-Corea Like I was just I was just in the moment And tapping into my subconscious, that's how you access the best part of your brains. You tap into, to write a song, you don't write a song. You tap into your subconscious. You don't overthink things, and I just probably was just... Da-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-ma.

My Bobby Brown Eyes. What is that? That's... Na-na-na-na-na-na-na-da-da. That doesn't know the Shanti song. My Bobby Brown Eyes. I don't remember the name of that song but it's just like three notes that were played in like a similar direction

and you know I risk of getting sued here it's just it's it's just my influences they're all they're all within us and that's why when Ed Sheeran writes a song for Justin Bieber you can kind of tell that it was the Ed Shearing co-write because he is such a strong right you know what I mean? Yeah yeah it's something I observe about your music is in getting to chat with you is that so much of what you do yes there's a lot of intention in it but it's also

your entire history of playing, listening, that's just like channeling through you. Yeah. But isn't that true for all of us, though, when we're writing? We all, like, it's not like we're starting with a blank slate. No, of course not. Well, I want to take you back to cry, and let's get it back in people's ears for a second. Let's just go to, we'll check out verse one for a second. I love the guitar sounds.

The production on this is incredibly specific. So what are we citing from and why are we in this sonic ecosystem? There's an obvious nod to, like, a Quincy Jones, production, like human nature. Yeah, the guitar from human nature. Yeah, like the way, just like the tone I was inspired by, there's, by the way, I don't think any producer should musically, like, gatekeep anything. So I'll give you all my stems after this, if that's what it, if that's what it takes.

I'll hold you to it. No, I'm serious. I got a thumb drive. I, um, human nature. The, um, the late 80s, like 19, like, I'm talking like October, 1989. right before things got really 90s, and people started discovering, oh, these digital reverbs and lexicons

can be really turned the fuck up. And we can really slam this LA 2A. And like, Johnny hates jazz. You're giving me, giving me nothing but shattered dreams. Anyone ever heard that song, Shattered Dreams? It was kind of like a hit in England, not so much here. But Johnny hates jazz, Shattered Dreams.

you listen to that record. It's just in it right away. It's so... I'm like holding it as like a wave file. It's so slammed. It was one of the first super slammed late 80s tracks because getting to the groove

Madonna is kind of like this and that as we got... And the loudness war is going to the radio. Everything started to become super slam. So I was inspired by just slamming the mix. Also, this is also the time of Kenny G.

So it's like, if we're citing that era, that is... You're going to hate me. Not at all. Best selling instrumentalists of all time, 75 million records. Unbelievable. I think often critics misunderstand that part of what makes him so successful is he's really good at helping people feel sentimental. Oh, yeah.

Which is often a feeling which is repressed. And your song cry is literally about don't repress how you're feeling. Let all this sentimental feelings happen. And there you have Kenny G putting a solo on the record. Yeah. What did you learn from working with him? I learned that there's no such thing as, especially nowadays, there's no such thing as too cheesy. Because like I said before, that's like, it's kind of like a quote cheesy song, but I believe that's what makes it cool.

And there's no such thing as, like I remember going to another school. And we were listening to Ornette Coleman. And I like Ornette Coleman. And I like John Coltrane. And I like Joshua Redman. I ever heard St. Thomas by Joshua Roman. You know what I mean? You know what I mean? Yeah?

You got to listen to St. Thomas by Joshua Redmond, live at the village vanguard. That was almost hot in here. Kind of. I'm just going to start strutting out songs. But they would get so mad when I was like, let's play. Or have yourself a merry little Christmas. They're like, bah, hambog. That's cheesy pop, like a smooth jazz.

I'm like, what's wrong with smooth jazz? Like, it's, yeah, is it, like, does it kind of make you do this a little of it? But there's like something, like there's this, it's ours, Paul Smith, I believe, he put out a song called 24-7. It was like so played at this old radio station in New York, CD1.1.9. It went, it went, I'm like, yeah, those drums are corny, but that, that, that, that, that, I'm like, hmm, that's like, that's dope. There's no such thing as too cheesy.

Lean into the cheese. I feel like one of the things that happen when we really closely cite our references is like it can turn into pastiche. Yeah. Cheese and pastiche are different. What is pastiche? I don't even, what, did it like bad facsimile of the thing that ends up sounding, I see. Inauthentic to the original. Well, inauthenticity.

Any, like, I'll doomscroll on Instagram Reels. sometimes because it's hilarious and we all know it's fucking hilarious and sometimes I'll happen across a video that has like 16 hearts that someone just getting started

but and they're playing a song that's not very good but I'm never gonna I'm serious I'm never gonna knock a musician because that was me in 2004 those videos are somewhere on the internet I'm never going to knock a musician

but the reason why it's not good is because they're pretending to be something. If you're starting off your video, like, I'm not really serious. Like, fuck this. I'm not, whatever. And it's like,

well, yeah, your video sucks because you're like not, you're pretending to, you're not being yourself and you're not leaning into yourself. But I don't blame this person.

It takes time to figure out who you are. It took me up, like, until my 30s to figure out, like, I am the music geek. And I'm not going to pretend to be the cool guy anymore. I'm not the pretend cool guy.

I am the, lover of teachers and music nerd. I went to Berkeley and I'm proud of that. I appreciate that. You're reinforcing something that I do every day in my class, which is that too often we arrive into class and we present our music. So, well, you know, it's not master. It's not nice.

And, oh, this is, this, I, I left version four on 386 Commonwealth. What I'm not feeling. 270. I left it out 270. And I constantly just try to like, just say in one sentence what you're trying to do. And just leave it there and keep it simple. Or just be like, this is unfinished and I want to share this with you.

This is a song about X, Y, and Z. And this means a lot to me. There you go. This means a lot to me. Now I care. Yeah. And, you know, you might get, if you have a bah humbug in the way in the back, someone being like hating on you, who cares?

You made it for you. I never understood hating on another musician when we're all trying to accomplish the same thing. And that's to get to people emotionally with some chords. and then you add some lyrics to those chords and then you're doubly getting to those people. You're the music nerd. Can you tell? My heart's racing.

Mine too. Passion, is there another song in your catalog that you feel like represents this idea of yeah, you're citing from things you love but it is so thoroughly you? I have a song called How Long Has This Been Going On? And it's my favorite pre-course ever wrote. She said, boy, tell me honestly.

Was it real or just for show? She said, it's driving me out of my mind. They didn't do that chord, but I did. It's like, that girl is poison. Like it's, you know, it's all of that's everywhere for me, but like for whatever reason. And I love playing that song live, and it's like a musician's song. I love playing that song live and boy live and changes live. But they all came from songs that probably were written from the similar standpoint.

Can we slow down for a second? Yeah. I might be hard to get this out of you, but what are you feeling when you're playing those chords? What are those chords saying? Like you said we're trying to communicate emotion with harmony and words. What is that saying? Well, from what I was going through at the time when I wrote it, it's a song about making mistakes and learning from your mistakes.

I'm not going to play. she said boy tell me honestly I'm not I'm gonna I'm gonna lean into it and it's kind of like a nighttime drive like take the drums out and it's just the roads in my voice and there's some vocal stacks

and it's R&B and it's like it feels like Johnny Gill feels like new edition feels like Jimmy Jam Terry Lewis feels like Quincy Jones it feels like Kevin Campbell

I don't know if I'm explaining it right I'm not good at explaining things sometimes that's why I write song because it's much easier to explain yourself when you have backgrounds. One thing I noticed those is that you, so you have the capacity to have this wonderful harmonic language that's at your fingertips that is like,

you were just like entering the dictionary of all music available to you and all these things are happening. But you also will artfully deploy very clean, simple chords when they need to happen. Like, started to go back there, but at the end of your National Anthem rendition, the final verse is, the straight, clear, open, total harmony.

Yeah, because it's something that... I believe that version, if I'm going to pat myself on this shoulder of mine, I think it's something for everybody. If people don't like... Then just stick with me because we're going to get really classic at the one minute and 13 second mark.

Oh, say, that's that star. But you know I'm going to do the... take you right back to church. It's like you're out of the church, you're in church. It's like you're one foot in the door, one foot out of the door. It also feels like the most sacred part of the text. You know, so it's like it makes sense for it to just be like clean and simple and doesn't have to be dressed up. It didn't need.

Oh, say does that's worse? It didn't need all that. It doesn't say the words right. It's just like the gut, like the gut feeling. It's like you know when. And sometimes I throw too much in and then I subtract it after. You know how Prince made, you know the song When Doves Cry? That song had a bass part in it that we're never going to even hear.

And at the very last minute, he was like, delete the entire bass. And that was the genius of Prince. He knew when to take things out. Let's hear for a second. I can fast one. Synth Lindrum. Where's the bass? It doesn't need it.

No, it's doper when like, you know a song called P SK by School E.D. Yes, of course. Just play that because that's a hip-hop example. This is the whole song. It's a reverbed ass out-lundrum. Where's the kick? It's coming. Just drums vocal.

Drums vocal. That's it. Can we do one more look at another one of your places of citation? Yeah. another track. We already tried it a few months ago about your first single changes, but we haven't talked about beat yourself up, which is another song with a lot of, I guess, like a very specific location. There's a lot of, there's very few songs nowadays that have these, that never resolved to the F sharp, the most obvious example being the never going to let you down, you know,

Like that song came out so long ago And we all just smiled and sang it right away Like that's the power of lay I will Rickville You didn't warn me about that That's like but how amazing that music can do that That's just it's incredible Like let's hear your chorus

Here's beat yourself up Yeah To the pre-course I love this part And then you get nice and simple That little That doesn't do nothing But that was a Max Martin note

Because it used to be, it used to, when I went to Sweden and I played it for Max, it was like, Eat yourself up, or whatever you do, because that doesn't do nothing but just break you into it. He raised his finger and I was like, oh, he was like, I think there needs to be a switch on the third part. Instead of it, doesn't do nothing, but he was like, I'm a little bored. It needs to be done, and it has to have something with attitude. And he's kind of like, it's humming out. I was like, one if he did, doesn't do nothing but. And I'm like, oh, it's kind of.

of like Britney Spears. He's like, she's so lucky. She's a star, but she cried like the but she like doesn't do nothing. So I was very grateful for that note. What was, what were you doing, bring this to Max Martin? What have you learned from interacting with them? Just to enunciate in your vocals, if it's needed. Oh gosh, if he were here right now, he would just, I would be right in that chair and I'd be

listening. He's so fun to listen to because he has such a positive insight on pop. music and just he max knows his place when he he doesn't he can do everything he's 100%ed songs but he feels he told me that he feels he's best when he has other people in the room and he can modify or change their ideas as well and like a conductor almost yeah he is like a modern day conductor and i think that's why he'll be around writing numerous hit songs for a very long time. What was he doing on this record? Is he on the record? No, he's not on the record. He just gave me that one little note and and then is never to be seen again. A little

butt. Wow. Yeah. He does, uh, okay, so we've got we've got the smallest collaboration ever here. What else are reciting from in this song? Yeah, that's the tiniest collaboration ever. I think um, uh, like George Benson and give me the night. Give Me the Night was the first song analog recorded but transferred digitally. 1980, Quincy Jones, very forward-thinking gentleman. But yeah, George Benson. A lot of Quincy Jones influence. Yeah, his influence runs very, very deep.

There's a no-doubt song that he did that's beat it. Really? You're going to stump me right now. I had no idea. Hell of good. Oh, no way. That makes so much sense. This shit blew my mind.

Ever heard this song? Oh my god Bro that is so fucking crazy The drums on hell of good Oh my god I didn't know that Right just a simple little rock beat But there's no doubt where they're pulling that from

I'm sorry I'm sorry I'm sorry about that Billy Jean is my all time number one favorite intro And how about this one? It's my life also It actually sounds like that snare might be layered in there I wouldn't be surprised if there was a little trigger So everyone's borrowing Everyone's biting from that stuff.

Everyone's borrowing. It's good to borrow. How is Charlie getting into this world of citation? What are you wanting to say in these rich late 80s, early 90s sounds? What do I want to say? Yeah, you. Like, what's the you part of it? Because part of it is not just having all these citations.

It's like, there's you here. The me is the fact that what the song is comprised of lyrically, cry is a song about me telling my dad that it's like, okay, to show emotion. There's a song called Washed Up About the first time that I really I needed to organize an intervention With somebody in my life Who really needed help

And it's like it sounds like a Jimmy Buffett song No really? And it's like I guess there's comedy Inters like spice throughout this record Just so I can get through Talking about heavy subjects Whatever's clever Whatever's clever

That's kind of like it's almost like A dismissive title I have a song called I used to be cringe and it ends the album, and it's like, yes, that reaction is what I want. That's the exact reaction I want. I want it to be kind of like a, huh, what? Used to be.

Like, I want, I want that. No one was thinking it. Because then when you hear it, it's like, I used to be cringe, just so I could fit in and have a seat at the table. And it's like, the choir goes, the table.

The table. It's like very Watch that be the biggest song On the album But it's earnest It's honest But it's very uncomfortable for me To just you know

Get a megaphone be like I used to be I can't do it There needs to be some nice There needs to be something behind it That like kind of clouds it Singing in harmony Gives you the emotional armor

To say things you might not say out loud otherwise It allows me to be more emotional Music allows me to be more emotional Yeah I would say you know half the time I ask you a question, you just play the piano instead. Because if I didn't have this here, it would be, this would be, which I guess fine, but there's this, we don't want that.

It just, there's a song called, Jesus, you're the center of my joy. All that's good and perfect comes from you. My voice is shot today. I've been talking all day. You're the heart of my contentment. I do. Jesus, you're the center of my joy, my joy, my joy. Richard Smallwood, he just passed away, unfortunately, but his music lives on forever.

Total praise. All of Walter Hawkins, thank you. I was with Kirk Franklin a month ago. I got to tell him how much I just appreciated all the music he's written. It's just, I've never made an album and put those influences in the album. I didn't think people would be interested to hear. that from me. But I'm interested to hear that from me. It allows me to get the thoughts out better. If you're not making the music that you want to be hearing in the world, it's not worth it.

Yeah. I'd be uncomfortable playing it. So you're back at the building, or I guess you didn't graduate from this building, but you're back at the institution that you graduated from back in 2013. Many of the students in front of you right now are in a place where you were, you know, slightly more than a decade ago. Which blows my mind because I feel like it was yesterday where I was listening to John Mayer. He's a good public speaker. He's a good public speaker. I'm not as good, but like I was in your position like 10 years ago, which is such a trip to me. And some of you all are going to be like here. Like it's really like, or all of you all, it's like it's incredible what music and like how it can guide you.

Okay. So then a closing piece of advice that you can either speak or sing. What's one thing that they can all do to help find their voice? I was, what's it called when you have to get a document. You get a notary. They take your thumbprint and you have to press it down. And then you walk out of the post office. And I walked back in the other day and I was like, wait, let me look at my thumbprint again.

I was looking at my thumbprint. I was like, wait, my thumbprint is like, I'm going somewhere with this. My thumbprint is like unique. It kind of just blew my mind and I'm just, if I find myself standing in the middle of the post office looking at a thumbprint, it blew my mind that no one else, not my brother, my sister, my dad, My mom, nobody, my wife, nobody has a thumbprint like this thumbprint. That's the same thing as the voice that we have. That's the same thing as the instrument, the way that we play our instrument. Nobody plays the keyboard like Chad Hugo.

Only Chad Hugo plays the keyboard like Chad Hugo. No one layers the drums for a 21 Savage record like Farrell does. Only Farrell can do that. People can be influenced by that. And I'm certainly influenced by it. But what I'm getting is we're all one of one in here. And that's an amazing thing. So when you try and pretend to be another artist

or try and make a song that's working at radio or is in the top 50 on Spotify or Apple Music, you're not going back to not being yourself. Like you might as well just, you're one of one. I should have just said that, but I wanted a thumb for an example. You are all one of one. You all have a unique opportunity

to make a piece of music that could change your life, that could change someone else's life. I've had multiple people come up to me after a show and saying this song did this for me. This song changed my life. I am living still because of this song. I don't want to get emotional. Oh, my God.

But, like, it's just... It's... It's amazing what we're all capable of. We can change people's lives with music. Music is the most important thing in the world. And just don't pretend to be anybody else. That's what I would say. Just be you.

Like, go home after this and open up that song that you started six months ago and upload it. the unfinished mix to TikTok. It doesn't matter. It's going to be compressed anyway. It would be my advice. I want to thank the team at Berkeley, NYC for making this happen,

and thank you, Charlie Puth, so much. It's been a blast. Sorry for rambling all of it. I just want to inspire everybody because you can be in my position very easily. Thank you, Charlie. Switched on Pop is produced by Randy Cruz, edited by Lissa Soap, engineered by Brandon McFarlane,

by Iris Gottlieb, video by Nick Rips, music by Zach Tenario, and Jossi Adams of Arc, Iris, or a member of the Vox Media Podcast Network, and production of Vulture, which is part of New York magazine, you can subscribe at anoymag.com slash pod. This week, we also have additional credits from the Berkeley team, producer Ryan Nava, editor, Glenn Forsyth, director of photography, Simon U, Simon U, Glenn Forsyth, Mike Moore, Adriana Malik, Front of House Audio Engineer, Joel Rubin-Mier, and audio recording by Juan Martinez. Thanks everyone at Berkeley, NYC for making this happen.

of me and Charlie Puth breaking down his music over on YouTube. We'll be back again on Tuesday with a brand new episode, and until then, thanks for listening. Attention, Spotify. Has arrived on the new Good Girl Jasmine Absolute

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