Switched on Pop - How Talking Heads reinvented the concert film (with Tina Weymouth and Chris Frantz)

Episode Date: October 17, 2023

Talking Head's concert film Stop Making Sense first came out forty years ago, and it’s just been rereleased in theaters in a 4k remaster by A24. The film finds the band — Tina Weymouth, Chris Frantz, David Byrne and Jerry Harrison — at the height of their powers over three successive nights at the the Hollywood Pantages Theater. As Chris and Tina remembered it when they spoke to producer Reanna Cruz, "We'd reached a state in our career and our lives when we felt, 'we've gotten pretty good at this now. We can show the world.'" Director Jonathan Demme spliced the band's performances into an eighty-eight minute odyssey beginning with Byrne solo on the stage and gradually bringing in the rest of the band and a cast of stellar guest musicians: vocalists Lynn Mabry and Ednah Holt, keyboardist Bernie Worrell, percussionist Steve Scales, and guitarist Alex Weir. The film introduced landmark moments like Byrne’s big suit, Demme’s cinematic approach to concert cinematography, Chris's and Tina’s Tom Tom Club performing the perennial sample flip "Genius of Love," and a theater-rocking version of "Burning Down the House." Stop Making Sense broke the mold of concert films and created a new paradigm for artists to follow ever since. Nate, Charlie, and Reanna take insights from Reanna's conversation with Tina and Chris on the legacy of Stop Making Sense as a guide to think through our own favorite concert movies — the Band's The Last Waltz, Madonna's Truth or Dare, and Beyonce's Homecoming — to identify the musical and visual choices that make them so indelible. Songs Discussed Talking Heads - This Must Be the Place (Naive Melody) - Live Talking Heads - Burning Down the House - Live Beyoncé - Diva - Homecoming Live Beyoncé - Single Ladies (Put a Ring on It) - Homecoming Live Madonna - Express Yourself Madonna - Live to Tell The Band - The Night They Drove Old Dixie Down - Live The Band - I Shall Be Released (Finale) - Live Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Hi, my name is Tina Weymus. I'm from the band Talking Heads and I'm also from the band Tom TomTom Club. And I'm Chris France. Same bands, Talking Heads, TomTom Club, and a star of Stop Making Sense.

Welcome to Switchdown Pop. I'm musicologist and A. Sloan. I'm songwriter Charlie Harding. And I'm producer, Rihanna Cruz. And that audio was Tina and Chris from a little band called The Talking Heads. Rihanna, you spoke to them because, The Talking Heads concert film Stop Making Sense, which first came out

40 years ago, has just been re-released by 824 in a 4K remaster. And Stop Making Sense is an iconic concert film that found this band of Tina, Chris, David Byrne, and Jerry Harrison at the height of their powers

at the Hollywood Pantagious Theater. Film director Jonathan Demi spliced the performances into 88 minutes of pure musical perfection, starting with Burns' solo on the stage and gradually bringing in the rest of the band and the cast of stellar guest musicians, Lynn Mabry and Edna Holt on vocals, keyboardist Bernie Warrel, percussionist, Steve Scales and guitarist, Alex Weir. This film introduced landmark moments like Byrne's big suit, demi-cinematic approach to concert filming, Chris and Tina's Tom Tom Club performance of genius of love

and a theater rocking version of Burning Down the House. Stop Making Sense, broke the mold of concert films and created a new paradigm for artists to follow ever since. So, Rihanna, Charlie, today I want to use Chris and Tina's insights from revisiting their classic film as a guide for us to think about how our own favorite concert movies might follow in the footsteps of Stop Making Sense. and how a concert film might not be just a visual document,

but actually something that changes the way that we hear an artist. Are you with me? Absolutely. Let's do it. Fun. All right. My esteemed colleagues, Charlie, Rianna, I asked you to think of some of the concert films that have made an impression on you

in the course of your musical lives. Rihanna, what concert film have you been spending time with in advance of this conversation? Well, it's a fascinating one, right? Because I feel like it's half-documentary half-concert film, but I'm a big fan of Madonna's Truth or Dare, which came out in 91. I kind of dig it because it portrays Madonna's blonde ambition tour really well, puts it in MTV Technicolor. And it couples these scenes of her performing songs like Express Yourself and Causing a commotion with behind-the-scenes black and white filmed footage. of her prepping for the show, her talking with her dancers, her curating this experience. There's even scenes of, you know, her waning, so to speak, relationship with Warren Beattie, who's there and present. But True Thuderdere is really interesting because it portrays these scenes from Madonna's concert and supercharges them with meaning based on the circumstances around it.

where there's a scene, for example, where she performs her song, Oh, Father. And the scene is sandwiched by vignettes of her and her dancer's relationship with fathers. So I think Truth or Dare is a really great example of a concert film that kind of surpasses the box that concert films are. Rihanna is bringing Madonna's boundary smashing truth or dare documentary slash concert film. Charlie, what about you? Well, I often think that concert films are deeply personal. They're really for fans. Rarely are you going to watch a concert film or something you aren't absolutely in love with.

So when I was a kid growing up, my favorite concert film was The Song Remains the Same by Led Zeppelin. which takes the form of the concert film and like all concert films geared towards fans builds an immense amount of lore around the band literally putting this band in these interstitial scenes of fantasy medieval narratives I actually don't feel as an adult that it holds up as a film

but as a fan as a young person And I was just so into the lore. I generally now don't like concert films because I think so often they are kind of propaganda puff pieces. Rarely are they made by an independent director who gets their own cut and absolute access and usually are instead made by the artists in their team. They are a form not of documentary, but of, you know,

self-promotion. It's a very long press release. Yeah, it's self-promotion. Yeah. That said, obviously, the shining example of this sort of film of late is Homecoming by Beyonce, who is the director, she is the star. For anyone that possibly could have missed it, it depicts her 2018 Coachella performance, which happened over two weekends.

And she was coming out of her hugely successful album, Lemonade, a celebration of black culture. and Homecoming takes a lot of that narrative and uses the legacy of important black iconography to build out a concert and a film like none other highlighting drum lines and marching bands from HBCUs, adapting her biggest hits like single ladies, love on top, and putting them in the style of a New Orleans brass band. Is this much about the myth-building of Beyonce,

as it is even more so, I would actually say, the celebration of Black American culture, it set the bar of what a live performance could be and what a live concert film could be. Madonna, Beyonce, I feel like I also have to come to the table with a just classic concert film. How about the last waltz? Truly, yeah.

Featuring the band, directed by Martin Scorsese, a film that predate, stop making sense, and one that for me retains a lot of the excitement I felt when I first watched it, unlike your experience with song remains the same, Charlie. It's lost little of its luster for me over the years. This is a film that features an astonishing cast of guest artists from Bob Dylan to Neil Young to Joni Mitchell and captures the band performing their biggest hits and also these loose improvised jam sessions. that may or may not ever need to be seen by anyone again.

The cinematography, the intimacy of this film makes the case why we have concert movies in the first place, because it brings you into the performance in the way that you can't always get when you're out in the audience. So, of course, nothing supplants that live experience. So now we have introduced three concert films. let's think about how they are inspired by or perhaps deviate from the formula produced by stop making sense. And one of the first things Chris and Tina said is that in order to have a great concert film, you need a great director. And for the talking heads, Jonathan Demi, who would go on to direct classics like Philadelphia and Silence of the Lambs, was at the time not really the established director he would become. Jonathan Demi came up to us at a concert and said, look, I love this concert. It's wonderful and it's made to be filmed. And we said, yeah, you're absolutely right. It should be filmed. And so he said, well, how do you see it being filmed? And we said, well, we think it's already got the perfect sort of set up with a proscenium stage sort of front on. And everybody's beautifully lit. And the music is the star of the show.

So we'd really like to avoid making one of those cliched rockumentaries with, we don't want split screens, we don't want flashing lights that are created by the filmmakers. We just want the camera to be like a sensitive eye, because to make this film would be to preserve it in time for our audience. And he completely went along with all of that, bringing his own aesthetic as well, but he was so respectful.

And there was this wonderful team interplay between our team, our band, our crew, and then the camera crew, and the direction team. We just had a good feeling about Jonathan when we met him. We felt an immediate kind of kinship. And we also felt like, for archival purposes, it would be good to do something because we'd reached a state in our career or our lives where we felt like we've gotten pretty good at this now.

We can show the world. Yeah. It's a time capsule. Yeah. And we're so happy that it holds up as well as it does. You probably agree with me or we wouldn't be having this conversation. but it holds up really well. Okay, so Jonathan Demi directed Stop Making Sense

with this cinematic eye that turned the whole performance into a kind of narrative, taking the audience through different moods, finding moments where the performers trade knowing glances with each other, moving from stark close-ups of the different members of the band to wide-angle shots. a director in a concert film is not just someone documenting the proceedings.

They're actually inserting their own kind of narrative and emotional arc. So I'm curious, Rihanna, Charlie, how do you see the directors of your chosen films putting their stamp on this particular live performance? I mean, I think it's particularly interesting in the case of Madonna, Truth, or Dare, because the director, Alec Chishishian isn't necessarily the most well-known of directors. I think Madonna Truth or Dare

is his biggest credit. I think his only other project of note is the Selena Gomez documentary from last year. Selena Gomez, my mind and me. I have not watched it.

But I do think the direction of Madonna Truthor-Dare is really interesting because it seems like Kachishian as a director has a bond with Madonna that allows

him to kind of harness her energy in the shots and in the construction of the film. And I think that when you're directing a concert film, I feel like Jonathan Demi is like an exception where he has a particular directorial vision and you could see it in the production of the film. I think a concert film maybe works best when the star or the band at the center is given the spot to shine. Where even, you know, if the music isn't loud and imposing the mythos of the performer itself is. And in the case of truth or dare, I feel like Madonna is such a big personality that I think putting a directorial vision on top of Madonna would kind of sully the final product. You know, I'm curious to hear what you think, Charlie, considering

Beyonce, of course, directed homecoming. Beyonce literally says in the film that every tiny detail has an intention. The prep for the show was, they said, at least four months of getting ready. So for two concerts, four months of preparation, not even for like a global tour or anything, really amazing amount of work went into this show. The thing that's so powerful about Homecoming is not when the camera is on Beyonce, but when it's on everybody else. The show actually opens like Stop Making Sense on one performer, a drumline performer. building a beat, quarter notes, triplets, 16th notes, 30-second notes, getting faster and faster and faster. And slowly the camera pans out and shows more performers. Eventually, we get Beyonce, the dancers,

strutting around the stage, and the reveal, which is so powerful, this pyramid of bleachers featuring a full horn band and marching band. And throughout the concert, she is turning the camera on their performers because this is a celebration of black culture. Oftentimes, the camera is showing behind-the-scenes shots of people getting ready under recitations from black luminaries like Nina Simone and Malcolm X. And other times, while on the stage, it's not even about Beyonce at the center. It's about the performers, the dancers, the musicians. And she's really showing her work. She says in the film that she read history.

She read about her culture and that she wanted to celebrate it. And so it takes a global entertainer like Beyonce to be able to share messages of freedom and black liberation that came through centuries of struggle of everyday people. To get those messages to resonate emotionally with hundreds of millions of people, yeah, it might take someone like Beyonce at the center. But it's when she turns the camera to everybody else. that I think the film really shines. Your description reminds me of a German term, Gazomte Kunstwerk. So true, Nate.

The total artwork. This is Beyonce's unifying vision. That's right, yeah. The performance, the film, the extra musical touches. It's all connected. The New Yorker used the same term in their review of it, in fact. Well, they stole that idea for me, so my lawsuit is forthcoming.

And it's worth mentioning as well that where the band in The Last Waltz relies heavily on also creating a cultural moment but largely through its cameos of bringing out an entire community of different people from this folk scene. Beyonce, on the other hand, really just brings out her family. Like, many of these films rely on endless cameos

to try to pull an audience. And she just brings out her husband Jay-Z, her sister, Solange, and Destiny's Child. And it's just showing, hey, this is, me, but it's actually all about everybody else. And Blue Ivy. Blue Ivy, yeah. Of course.

Cannot forget Blue Ivy. But to bring it back to Stop Making Sense, I think that's interesting because stop making sense doesn't really have cameos. You know, there's the additional members of the band, which come from separate groups like Parliament Funkadelic and the Brothers Johnson. But, you know, it's just the band. And I think, like, a part of what makes Stop Making Sense so great are the cultural moments. that just the band is allowed to bring.

The big suit that David Byrne wears in the movie has a lasting impact, and that just comes at the hands of the band. You know, it just comes out of the ideas that they're sprouting, and they don't really need to bring in other performers. They don't really need to bring in cameos. They don't even need to turn the camera behind the scenes

because of the sheer showmanship and the sheer connection that is portrayed on the screen. and put in their performance. What about you, Nate? Did you just pick a film that's a bunch of cameos to pull in the eyeballs, or is this truly a Martin Scorsese directorial work of genius? Well, I think it's somewhere in between. It's interesting to hear all these different concert films

and sort of the level of directorial involvement where maybe in Truth or Dare they're more a fly on the wall, homecoming, totally invocated in the creative process from the beginning. Stop making sense, as the band said, having a lot of interplay, but ultimately it's their show. In Last Waltz, I feel like Scorsese creates some breathtaking moments.

There's a dolly shot during the night they drove old Dixie down that gives me chills every time I see it, panning through the stage, cutting across his leave-on-helm delivers an almighty drum fill. But then there's also some directorial choices that maybe haven't stood the test of time

And maybe even angered the band. Like, if you watch the last waltz, you'll notice that the band's singer and piano player, Richie Manuel, is like kind of in shadows in the corner. And a lot of people think that's because Robbie Robertson may rest in peace, did not want to feature him. And meanwhile, Robbie Robertson, who has a microphone and a singing lead on all the songs. Actually, his microphone wasn't even plugged in.

So it was just, that was just kind of part of the, theater of it. So, I don't know, there's, there's an element where the director is capturing, but also working with the band to create a narrative. So, y'all, let's return to the wisdom of Tina and Chris from The Talking Heads and here, another insight from them about an ingredient for a great concert film. And that is, you need to reimagine familiar songs in new ways. Well, I think that because the studio recordings were always made basically by the four of us, with the expanded band, we wanted to divvy up the parts. Jerry likes to say that sometimes we gave the best parts to other players,

but it was a very natural, organic process of mutual respect for each other as musicians. I mean, we had some great talents on that stage. Bernie Worell from P-Funk. We had Steve Scales, who was extraordinary, fantastic percussionist. The singers Lynn Mabry and Edna Holt and Alex Weir on guitar, he was from Brothers Johnson. It was like a double band. But it was a fantastic melding. I mean, we think the songs actually improved.

It was all to the benefit of the material. It got better. I mean, you can't really improve on once in a lifetime and burning down the house, except just bring in the energy. Yeah, we always felt like you never want people to leave your show saying, I like the record better. You want them to say, this live show was even better than the record. You know, hopefully the record was great, but this was even greater.

So that was our sort of general outlook about performing live. All right. This fascinates me because I feel like this is one of the central tensions when you're making a concert film. Do you capture the recordings that everyone knows and recreate them so that people are like, oh, I know that. There's that solo. There's that vocal ad lib. I'm hearing exactly what I expect. Or do you transform it?

Do you reconstitute it? do you deliver a new version of something familiar with Stop Making Sense. They clearly wanted to make something even better than the record. And there are moments like Bernie Worell's keyboard solo on Burning Down the House that are every bit as important as any of David Byrne or Tina Weymus vocals. Yes. Love it. It's awesome. But I imagine if we went through each of these documentaries that we've been discussing, maybe we would find,

different approaches. Rihanna, what does Madonna do in Truth or Dare? She doesn't mix of both. When I was watching it recently, there were parts where I was watching with my roommate and both me and my roommate were like, is she lip syncing? And I don't think she was, but during songs like Holiday or Express Yourself, for example, she sounds so similar to the studio recording that I genuinely thought that she was lip syncing because her voice was so on point and so similar. to what I already know and I already love. I know she's not lip-syncing because I know Madonna, but it sounds so similar to the studio recordings.

It made me ponder. Interesting. This brings up, I think, one of the greatest challenges of contemporary popular music when it's performed live. Now, oftentimes, I think the live band can be better. Because, you know, when we're writing a song, especially like more contemporary music, more in like Beyonce era than early Madonna era.

People are writing on a laptop. They're using loops and samples and things like that. But when you finally get a great drummer and bass player and full rhythm section, when they can interpret that song, oftentimes more energy is added into the music. Certainly we get a lot of new energy from like the Bernie Warl example.

Yeah. But on the vocal side, a concert film is so physically demanding, we shouldn't expect that a vocalist should be able to perform as well as they can in the studio as they can on the stage. They are running around.

They are exercising. They are using every possible breath they can in all of the visual movement and all the dancing and choreo to be able to sing at the same time is like it's a near impossibility. And so oftentimes we get supporting tracks. Right.

Like when I'm hearing in the Madonna, either there's some supporting tracks of the original vocal, or maybe there's some backup vocalists. There's definitely support because you need that extra support as a vocalist to be able to really bring the full expectation of that pop vocal to the live performance.

And so we have this tension. I think the music can be more exciting, but the vocal, the most important element, is often compromised in the spectacle of a full contemporary performance. But at a different point in the documentary, she does the song Live to Tell, and she's not dancing.

I mean, there's a little theater-esque contemporary dance that she's doing during it, but she's not moving. And you could hear the power in her voice where I turned to my roommate who I was watching with. And I was like, no, she's actually singing. And you could hear it because the instrumental is paired back. She's doing this power ballad, heart-wrenching vocal. And it's really, really demonstrated. in these quieter moments.

Yeah, that definitely sounds live. And I actually want to go a little deeper on this topic. Something that Chris and Tina brought up with Stop Making Sense, that a concert film should not just be a re-performance of a studio recording, but something transformative. And you can hear that in Talking Heads live versions of some of their most famous songs. Take a track like, this must be the place. I'm sure you are familiar with the studio version of this.

Compare that to the Stop Making Sense version. First of all, how does Tina play the bass like that and sing at the same time? Unbelievable try. I had the same thought rewatching this. I was like, what dark magic is this? This is blowing my mind. Now, you recognize it immediately, of course. But there are all these subtle changes.

The baseline, I think, maybe is what you're really. Remarker and Charlie is played by Tina Weymouth on an actual electric bass rather than a synth bass. There's all this additional interplay between the instruments that is happening live in front of your eyes, this improvisation. The guitars are different. Yeah. It just kind of crackles with this additional energy that only a live performance can generate because it's unfolding before your eyes and ears. So let's hear, like, let's go back to the homecoming for a second. homecoming transform some of Beyonce's songs? Some of the most familiar tracks of the 21st century.

Yeah, like how does, how do they reimagine these sounds? Well, she uses the full power of her drumline and marching band. And so I think the best example in one of her most iconic songs is single ladies, where the whole song, you know, at first it's got the same vibe that you know, it's got some new instruments, and then she breaks the whole thing down into what feels like a New Orleans second line. That's just a whole new song, right?

It's like that's the version that's played probably at so many HVCU football games and homecomings. Like that's the rendition that the people play. I think I've been vocal about this in the past. I'm like number one, like my least favorite song as single ladies. It has to me a beat that veers on grotesque. However, I... It's okay to be wrong from time to time.

No, we'll talk about this later, Charlie. Welcome to another edition of Rihanna's scorching hot takes. Yeah, I could talk about this for hours. But I will say that the homecoming version of single ladies is incredible and actually gets me to listen to the song and appreciate it in a new way. And a lot of the songs in Homecoming that I was lukewarm on or didn't really, you know, vibe with are kind of supercharged by this horn section. I think another great example to me is like diva. So what you're saying, Rihanna, is that it's a good thing this is a podcast because people can't see that while listening to these Beyonce tracks that you previously were not that into, you now have stank face. Absolutely.

You could ask my partner. It works. Nate, what about in your case when we're thinking about the last waltz? Are we getting updated versions of these songs? Are they working the same way that stopped making sense? Well, like we spoke about earlier, the presence of some of these guests artists gives them, like, kind of a new sheen. But many of the arrangements remain the same.

Some of the moments, though, to me, that really capture the uniqueness of the last waltz are these jam sessions that they do where all these different musicians who are there for this one special concert get together and spontaneously create music together. And I'm going to be frank. A lot of it is pretty horrible. Nate, I just don't think you're a jam band head.

Oh, no, you're wrong about that, Rihanna. Nate has a very secret jam history. Wow. I mean, y'all, there were so many drugs backstage at this concert. They had to rotoscope a wedge of cocaine out of Neil Young's nose. It's not their fault that these jams lose the thread, to be clear. Sometimes it doesn't click. Yeah, I mean, I will say that behind the scenes stuff is often my least favorite part of these films.

Now, obviously, their job is to create a sense of intimacy, but they also are all about the the public relations, the promotion of the artist. My one meaningful criticism of Homecoming is actually a directorial choice to use kind of like either old film cameras or like a faux sepia effect

over all of the behind the scenes footage, which makes it feel like older and nostalgic and the voiceovers are all done through what sounds like a gramophone. I think trying to find the balance of the concert and what happens behind the scenes. There's a tension there. It's hard to get that quite right, I think.

Well, Charlie, you have just struck on another key point that Chris and Tina raised when Rihanna spoke to them about making a great concert film. This question of, do you break the fourth wall? Let's hear their thoughts after a short break. Maria, you have a podcast now, and you need to start acting like it. What's the first step as a podcaster?

Well, you have to ask lots of questions. questions. I'm Maria Sharpova and I'm hosting a new podcast called Pretty Tough. Every week, I'm sitting down with trailblazing women at the top of their game to discuss ambition, work ethic, and the ups and downs that come on the path to achieving greatness. I have a few pretty tough questions for you. Okay. Ready? Ready. Do not sugarcoat something for me. No, no. We'll dive into their stories and get valuable insights from top executives, actors, entrepreneurs, other individuals who have inspired me so much in my own journey. Pretty tough is your front row seat to the women who have demonstrated the power in being unapologetic in their pursuits. I hope you'll

join us. New episodes drop Wednesdays on YouTube or in your favorite podcast app. All right. So we've been talking about do you go beyond the stage, so to speak, do you go backstage? Do you talk to the people? Do you hear what's going on behind the scenes in a concert film or not? Well, with stop making sense, Chris and Tina had a very clear vision. Don't do interviews. Just avoid that because the film,

we wanted music to speak for itself. So for Kristen Tina, this was paramount. Don't talk to us. Just show us on stage. Otherwise, you run into a danger of your film becoming not just

a concert film, but something verging on a mockumentary. Spinal tap. But you can mention the great classic rockumentary spinal tap. Yes.

Yeah. Which opens wide and is going to this day. Yeah. We saw it for the first time around the same time we were about to do

stop making sense and we thought, oh man. Better not take ourselves. too seriously. I love that, right? As soon as Spinal Tap came out, talking heads were like,

okay, we just have to make sure we avoid becoming the fake band in this mockumentary, and we don't say embarrassing things and behind the scenes interviews. They were just like, we're not going to do that. This is just a film. You don't get any access to us, but that's not the case in some of these other

movies, in Truth or Dare, in Homecoming, even in the last waltz. So what do you think? When should a concert film break that fourth wall and find the artist outside of their performance? And when should it just be what happens on stage? And that's all you get. Personally, I feel like it differs with pop music and rock music.

I think part of why Stop Making Sense works without those interviews is that Talking Heads is a kind of no-frills band. I'm thinking about what Stop Making Sense would be like if there were behind the scenes they were interviews. And I'm thinking, would I glean anything new from the band that I wouldn't previously know? And the answer I think is no. Contrary to Homecoming,

contrary to Madonna, contrary to when Lady Gaga films her concert films, these are artists who are larger than life and project this image that kind of shuts off their personal life as a result. And we only get like the tabloid representation, so to speak.

So when these pop concert films have behind the scenes show the kind of warts and all portrayal as Madonna Truth or Dare exemplifies, it brings a lot to the table because it shows these artists in a new light. You know, Madonna Truth or Dare is kind of wild with the things that it shows Madonna doing. You know, she performs sexual acts. She beefs with Warren Beatty. She gets in arguments with her dancers and her friends and her manager. Like, it's so real and it shows us a different side of Madonna, whether that be good or bad, but overall brings a new dimension to the work and to the mythos of Madonna as a performer. Right. This is all about performing authenticity, though, right?

Yes, usually the artist gets the cut of the film. They are revealing what they are choosing to reveal to build their persona. I think you're right. I mean, we live in a moment where getting access to the biggest superstars is just near impossible. You know, even when, you know, Vogue wants to interview Beyonce, it's Beyonce interviewing Beyonce. Like, it's very rare to get access. So we only get this, you know, guarded access. I think that the Madonna film is a great precursor to, like, Taylor Swift's Miss Americana, where we see these, you know, supposed it. And I think, you know, obviously real behind the scenes footage of her not, not. winning a Grammy and her contending with how to communicate her politics to her fans.

Clearly, these are things that happened, but they're also in a moment where the camera is there, and the camera knows to be there, and there is not a third-party documentarian getting to choose the final cut. So we are getting a guarded kind of performance of this authentic, pure pop star. I think in the case of Beyonce, I certainly wanted to see some of it, because she doesn't really talk to anybody. And, you know, she was going through challenging moments that added to the meaning of the performance. She had had a very challenging pregnancy. And obviously, there was the fallout in the album lemonade about infidelity that had happened.

And so we sort of get pictures of her narrative. And yet, for me, again, I think where homecoming shines is the behind-the-scene footage of the dancers and performers because so much of the behind-the-scenes in that film is about, again, myth-making, but the myth-making of how hard it was to put together this totally unique cultural moment. The Last Waltz, meanwhile, is exactly the film that Chris and Tina were talking about where they said, don't do interviews.

And I have to say, I kind of fast forward to them if I'm watching it. I just want what's happening on stage. Now, this conversation does make me think of another concert film I'd like to bring to the discussion, which is the Beastie Boys film awesome I effing shot that I never saw that which is a film made up

entirely of footage by fans at their Madison Square Garden concert whoa that's fascinating cool and then they the band took that and spliced it into a concert film but it's all it's all fan videos that's awesome and so that's a kind of another way to kind of break the the fourth wall to give up some of your control as an artist kind of giving the fans, camcorders, and saying, you film this and we'll make a movie out of it.

That's so cool that it's also officially licensed by the Beastie Boys because I see a lot of this. I can kind of see that film as like a predecessor to the things that fans are doing on, like, Twitter and YouTube and TikTok, because I've seen a lot of fans cut together full-length concert films compiling footage that they found from other fans. And for example, Lady Gaga, Cromatica Ball, she filmed it professionally, but it's been sitting in the vault.

I think Lady Gaga is still in there, tip-tapping at the keyboard, putting the cuts together. But in the wake of that not officially being released, a lot of fans have compiled full-length concert films of Cromatica Ball that they've posted to YouTube that are just different footage of fan clips online spliced together and put on the internet. I've watched one of those for the art pop tour and also the Bournemouth Ball because it's something that I think brings a concert film in the absence of a professionally recorded concert film.

So the best behind-the-scene footage is what I'm hearing is actually the footage from the people themselves. That's the behind-the-scenes that we want to get. And isn't that the live experience you want to feel? It's like, I don't, green rooms aren't that interesting. I don't want to go. Yeah, yeah. I don't want to go. You know, I haven't gotten to go to see the Renaissance tour or the eras tour.

And I will see both of them in theaters very happily. But I'll never get to know what it feels like to be in that stadium. And so, yeah, I like the behind-the-scenes footage from the fans themselves. Well, now our discussion is starting to encroach on the final element of what Chris and Tina would say needs to go into a successful concert film. Y'all, it's love. Absolutely. Love.

Love is number one. That's key. You know, you have to have your whole heart, mind, and soul involved with each other. And then the songs are well served. And the audience has to feel that love. And you have to get it, you know, you have to toss it out there and then they toss it back. And it's hard to describe. because it's a bit magical.

And we always thought, wow, see, this is how the world can be at peace and get on with each other. You don't all have to like vanilla ice cream. Some of you can like chocolate or strawberry, but you all have to respect each other's point of view and taste. And I think that film shows that. I agree with Tina.

You know, there's so many ingredients. There's the whole technical side. but then there's the performance. And the performance has to be pretty damn good if you want people to come back for repeated viewings. And we had put together a wonderful band, and we had toured the world at that point multiple times, and it was a very, as they say, a well-oiled machine.

There was also room for little moments of spontaneation, and ecstasy, that joyfulness that we were able to convey to the screen. The film holds up as a story, as a moment in time captured with great love. Okay, big scoop here. Tina does not like strawberry ice cream. It's clear. A switched on pop exclusive. Earhorns. Ear, ear, ear, ear, ear.

I like strawberry ice cream. I don't know how you guys feel about it, but that is my favorite. So I was a little hurt. First ice cream that my son had. That's so twisted, Rianne. I have nothing. I don't even know how to deal with that information. Nate's Team Tina.

I have never even heard a person say that. Like, what kind of, that is pathological. All right, you guys have lost the threat. I'm sorry, I did this to us. I don't know how the show can continue. What are we talking about love? Show's got to have love. Shows got to have love, Nate.

Can we bring some love into the conversation? Absolutely. Let's end actually with something that you brought up, Charlie. Instead of going backwards to some of our favorite concert films, some of the most iconic and influential concert films, let's look ahead to some of these films that you mentioned, the Taylor Swift era's concert film, the Beyonce Renaissance concert film.

These are going to be a big deal. Based on this conversation, based on the example set by stop making sense, what do you predict those films to contain and what do you hope that you might find in them? Well, I'm a little nervous about going to see them in theaters, I'm not going to lie, because I have a feeling, A, I'm outside of the core demo for either of these artists, even though I greatly adore much of their music.

And because of that, I think I won't fit in singing along. Like, I actually, mostly it's just that I want to hear the music and I want to see the show. And I think that these are such big cultural moments that these are going to be rock us and really lively theaters where I will not get to have my quiet, thoughtful experience, which is a really snooty thing to say.

So I am excited to watch them at home. I hope that I get the better view of the concert than anyone could reasonably afford to actually get to see these shows. Right. These are some of the most expensive shows that have ever been put on. And the reason why I didn't attend was just, A, not being able to access a ticket and then not willing to spend the absurd amount of money in the aftermarket. So I hope to be upfront and close and personal with the concert itself. I hope that there are no interviews. I don't really need the behind the scenes, anything. Like, if there's a thing in the Erez tour where we see the roadies reacting to their. enormous payday that Taylor Swift gave them, which is awesome that she did. But, like, we don't need to see that in film because... That's pretty funny.

I just don't... We don't need these superstars patting each other on the back. The hagiography that some of these films create, yeah. I want to see an up-close and personal concert experience that I wouldn't get anywhere else with amazing sound. I appreciate everything you're saying, Charlie, though I do love the image of you shushing a theater full of Swifties. A, like, 13-year-old.

sitting next to you, crying. I'm trying to appreciate the intricate instrumental interplay. Keep it down. There's definitely a New Yorker cartoon of exactly that. What about you, Rihanna? I'm interested to see how Beyonce will put some of the themes present in the Renaissance era in the concert film. I don't necessarily want a front-to-back recap of the performance.

Of course, that's what I look for normally in a concert film. that performances are captured effectively, and I'm sure they will be. But the Renaissance album and the Renaissance tour by extension are such dense texts filled with references to house music, to the queer community, to the history of both of these things. And I'm curious to see if the Renaissance film has any connections to these ideas, whether it be in behind the scenes, clips, whether it be in interviews with Beyonce. I'm really curious to hear how Beyonce expresses in words rather than song, rather than in action, her thoughts on house music. You know, and I think that's what's been missing from her press cycle, from her interviews. I would love

if this film just has Beyonce talk about house music in a way that like even the biggest of househeads can get down with, you know, like, that's what's what. That's what we're what I want to see. Charlie, Rihanna, thank you for sharing your thoughts on the evolution of the concert film. And let me wrap up this conversation by reviewing some of the things we learned from the talking heads. Let me say that again, the talking heads. We got to talk to the talking heads.

Rihanna, you interviewed them. I just need to state that again to make sure that it's real. We learned the following, all right? ingredient one for a great concert film first thing you need a great director second you need to transform the music for the concert experience third you need to decide how you're going to deal with breaking the fourth wall are you going to do backstage interviews or not and finally does your music documentary have the love does it have that magic that a great concert experience needs and can't be translated into film.

And most importantly, can your music documentary resolve the great ice cream dispute of 2023? Who's to say? Only time will tell. Switched on Poff is produced by Rana Cruz, engineered by Brandon McFarland. This week, we're edited by Jolie Myers-Meyers. She's back. Yay!

Illustrations by Ariz Gottlieb, community management by Abby Bar. Our executive producer is Nishak Kerwa, or a member of the Vox Media podcast network and a production of Vulture. Find us on the social media platform of your choice at SwitchDumpop and sound off on your favorite concert film what do you love about it what makes it special what's your favorite song we are very curious to know and find us next week a brand new episode awaits you every tuesday until then we humbly say thanks for listening thanks for listening chocolate