Switched on Pop - How to 'Make Me Feel' with Lizzo

Episode Date: March 8, 2018

"Make Me Feel," is the first hit from Janelle Monáe's upcoming album Dirty Computer. It is a sensual song about the fluidity of desire. In the pre-chorus, the singer proudly expresses that she is a "sexual bender." Fans have embraced the song for breaking free of normative sexual expectations. But these non-binary statements aren't limited to the lyrics. The message is reinforced with musical concepts drawn from the blues, Prince and Michael Jackson. To help break down this track, Nate and Charlie are joined by singer/rapper Lizzo. She and Monáe both collaborated with Prince, making Lizzo uniquely qualified to unwind his influence on the song (Prince was recently named as a collaborator on the track). We also discuss Lizzo's song "Truth Hurts" and her podcast "Good As Hell" where she talks to the queens of hip hop. Hands down, Lizzo is one of the most talented, knowledgeable and fun guests. You don't want to miss this episode. Songs DiscussedJanelle Monáe - Make Me FeelMichael Jackson - The Way You Make Me FeelMichael Jackson - Beat ItFats Domino - Blueberry HillPrince - KissYing Yang Twins - Wait (The Whisper Song)Lizzo - Truth HurtsSister Nancy - BamBonus MaterialGet tickets for Lizzo's Sister Sister Sister tour with Haim: www.lizzomusic.comDon't miss Lizzo's podcast "Good As Hell" on SpotifyAlso if you haven't read it, Quincy Jones Vulture interview is utterly mad Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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I'm Stephanie Wu, editor-in-chief of Eater. We've just launched the new-ish and way better Eater app. It has all the restaurants we love, gives you personalized picks wherever you are, and serves up smarter search results just for you. You can find my list of the best places for martinis and fries in New York City. And save your favorite spots, share lists, follow editors and book. write in the app. Download the eater app at eaterapp.com. It's free for iOS users. Welcome to Switch On Pop. I'm songwriter Charlie Harding. And I'm musicologist Nate Sloan. Today we are joined by

Lizzo, singer, rapper, and host of the podcast, Good As Hell, a partnership with Spotify and Refinery 29. We are so honored to have you here as your music has been a absolute hit with our listeners. Thanks for joining us. Oh, yay. Yeah. Hi, you forgot something. I'm a flute player. No way, really? flute and piccolo. So add that to your list. Gosh darn it. So you're here to help us deconstruct the brilliant new single Make Me Feel by Janelle Monet. We are also going to get to talk about your music and your upcoming tour and your show. So much fun stuff. But I want to just get right into it. We're going to talk about Janelle Monnet and her awesome new track. You're familiar. I am. I got to freak out on her about it. She invited me to this brunch. And then I was

like, sis, so last time I saw her, I had like big curly hair. And then this time I saw her, I had long straight hair and I was like, sis, you just stained my curl pattern. You snatched my wig. I knew you was going to drop something, but I didn't know. You killed it. She's like, thank you. Like, I was blown away.

Like the double release, you know, like the Armageddon drop, sis. That was actually my favorite part about it. But once again, this is switched on pop, not switched on, you know, a song release. So let's talk about the actual song. I'll tell you. So on Make Me Feel, I think what we're hearing is a bending, a blending, this non-dualistic

message of blending sexuality, blending genres, blending sounds, blending harmonies, and melodies. And what we want to do is we want to break this down and figure out how does she accomplish this musically. And so I think the appropriate thing to do would of course be to take a listen to the track. Yes. Let's do it. That's just the way you make me feel. That's just the way you make me feel.

That's just the way you make me feel. Nate likes the synthesizers. That's just the way you make me feel. Yes. Yes. Shout out to ASMR. Wait, say more. The ASMR chorus.

That's just the way. Oh, yeah. A whisper chorus. I'm always a fan. Oh, interesting. Yeah. She really came through. I didn't make that connection, though.

Reinfused by the. really sort of lo-fi beatboxing in the opening. Just like... Oh, yeah. You know, that kind of thing, right? Oh, it's so mouthy, right? I think it's probably important that we establish what's happening in the song,

just broadly, what do you feel the song is trying to say? Is she explicitly talking about bisexuality, or is she just talking about sexuality? Right. I think that's, like, more what she was going for than being like, you know, this is my specifics. It's so much more broad than that.

the way you make me feel like anyone can sing that about anybody in any way. And I think that's what makes it even bigger than just kind of like her identifying with a sexuality. And everyone's like, oh my God, she came out. I'm like, what do you mean? No, she wrote a song about like what we should all be singing about, you know? Absolutely. Like freeing our minds, not being restricted to certain pronouns and songs. And just because we feel like that's how we're supposed to say it because society wouldn't understand, you know?

She's just doing her Yeah Nate what's your take I totally agree I mean that's to me What makes the song so Universal Anyone can relate to this

Because of that feeling of Excitment that kind of Rush that the lyrics of the song Capture I'm excited to like get into the music And figure out how the music Is also giving us that Feeling of excitement

And that crazy adrenaline rush Yeah Yeah the song is the musical version Of like an endorphin rush right she like wrote how you feel sonically how you would feel when you're like bugs bunny with the hard eyes floating and you're like woo like that's what the song that's the sonic feel of it

and lyrically too you're just like i don't even know i think there's some really important backstory that for those who might not be as familiar with jadelman's entire body of work she largely has produced work which is allegorical these epic sweets called Metropolis where she plays another character. She's not even playing herself or it's the blending of her identity. She was the Ark Android. The Ark Android, Cindy Mayweather in, I think, what is it, the year 2719 or something.

And she uses the metaphor of an android for all kinds of modern day oppression. And also for her own self-expression. It's incredibly beautiful. Now, on this track, it feels like we're getting a little bit more potentially personality. but I really agree with what you say, Lizzo, like we never know who the narrator is, right? Like, it's a song, and a song is here to represent any number of people.

People like to dissect, okay, yeah, but which one's, like, actually, like, Janelle Monet. But that's not what we're here to do. We're here talking about the music, which is exciting. I always say there's, like, two different kinds, well, there's three different kind of artists. Yeah.

I think there's the vocal performer that can, like, emote someone else's song really well. Yeah. Then there's two kinds of writers, though. There's, like, right, there's the fantasy writer always like compared to like a Tyler the creator he's just like creates fantasy and like talks about things that may not even have happened and then you have writers who are like extremely personal and like almost like stream of conscious like when you're listening to like Kanye and you're like oh my god this just happened to you last week didn't it you know and I think that Janelle is always gonna be a fantasy writer like even if she's talking about herself she's created a world where it's just a novel it's like the Lord of the rings, you know? So she's Frodo and she's Gans off

and you know what I mean? And you never know, like the real Janelle might be in there. She might be Gimley, but she'll never know. She has that little glint in her eye that's like wink. Well, I really support the way that you framed it. I think there are a lot of clues in here that allude to

both sexual tension and also sexual non-duality. She's been interviewed many times and even in her music, she sort of remains intentionally opaque because, as she says, she wants to be attractive to all people and she wants all people to be attracted to all people. And yeah, there's no contest. I think she's reinforcing this message both lyrically and musically.

So I want to look at the melody specifically. And just right from the very top of the track, one of her great traits is constantly referencing the future and the past at the same time. And what's neat about this track is it's actually, it's a blues. It has a subtle blues progression. and she uses a lot of seventh chords and chromaticism and things that, frankly, wouldn't be popular in a lot of modern R&B,

which sort of, I think, intentionally moves away from those sounds because it might sound sort of pastiche or too old. But she's not afraid to adopt those and fit them into her song. Right. Well, I think there's a reason why she does this. Because, yeah. Why?

Getting some wide eyes here. She opens her song with... Baby don't make me spell it out. for you. Oh my gosh. Can you please join us all the time? Exactly. And that line is surrounding this strong seventh.

Yeah. You hear that? Yeah. Tension. Tension. Isn't it so rewarding? What is that tension doing for? It's like how do you hear that tension?

How does it support the song? It's so funny because like tension in a song normally happens in like the pre. Yes. And the first. first verse is supposed to just feel right. It's supposed to be at what, like, the root is supposed to be like, the one. One note melody, simple. And you're like, here we go.

Let me just. You know what I mean? And then she's, like, starting like, and you're like, what's about to happen? Like, that's what it does for me. That melody, da-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-n-n-n-remines reminds me of a movie. Like, you take the track out of it. And if you just hear that melody, like, on some violins, it sounds like, you know, like. It's cinematic.

Yeah, super-syn. Like it's a moment in a movie where like the little kid is running and he's running towards something. Like it feels like I don't know. So tension at the start. And I think it's worth saying even for maybe for some of our listeners who may not be as familiar with music. It might be helpful to even just to play an example of if you were open up on a plain major chord and then you have a seventh chord. And that seventh chord, it's unstable. Yeah.

And it's the root as opposed to that. That's beautiful thing. Unresolved chords were always like my crypton. night. I remember because when they would play on resolve chords I'd be like, just resolve it! Just resolve it! And she does because that chord wants to go somewhere. It wants to go

in the progression of a blues. A typical 12 bar blues chord progression uses a lot of those seventh notes to have us constantly move through a progression and always have a little bit of instability to create movement. Right? So a blues is going to start right on that whole chord, that one, and add the seventh.

And it's going to move for the four, the five, back to the four and back home to the one seven. That's sort of the blues progression. Lots of sevenths, lots of tension. And if there's one thing that is happening in the song, there is tension and there is movement. And she fulfills that sort of blues expectation

by moving to what would be the next blues chord. She goes from the one chord. To the four chord. Right? Oh, it's like, doon, doon, doon, do, do, do. Exactly. That is so the blues. That's so tight.

And you're not hearing You really broke it down. Thank you. I appreciate that. Okay, so I've got another... Gold star for Charlie. I know, right? That was up late.

I have another supporting piece of evidence and it's chromatic text painting. I think the line that a lot of people have zeroed in on this song is it's like I'm powerful with a little bit of tender, an emotional sexual bender. It's like I'm power. So that's the problem. pre-chorus. As you said, the pre-course is typically where we get even more tension. I think there's

no denying. The tension only increases because not only does she use that seventh note, but she introduces chromaticism. Notes outside of the scale, things which are going to create disharmony, confusion, dissonance. But you know what else? It's like descending chromatic. So like, it was so unexpected when I heard that I was like, wait a second. Wait, you know, like there's tension, but like when you have like a descending chromatic, your body physically will go down too. You know, you're like, uh, yeah. Oh, okay. It's almost relaxing. It's like she builds tension and then, I mean, children are listening to this, so I won't say what it actually reminds me of, but you're building tension and then it's like a release and then you build that tension again. It's very tantric

until you get to the climax of the hook. But like, pre's normally gradually build. It's like, she came in so hot with that, da, da, da, da, da, and then she like backed off and was like, ah, not yet. I'm like, oh, my God. I've never heard a pre-actional. tease me like that before. So I think it would be appropriate to just play an example of just to hear this. So here's the pre.

It's like I'm power to tender. That's just the way you make. So just when she sings that line, that chromaticism, the nah, no, no, no, no. That's when she's singing the word sexual bender. And so she's inferring that anyone listening can be sexually fluid.

They don't have to be normative in their sexual preferences. and she reinforces it with a line which sort of blurs between one note and the next. There's sort of an uncertainty and a spectrum of sounds. That's very literal. I wonder if it's also blurring

sort of between like speech and song, you know? She's like not totally singing it. It's like kind of half spoken. I found that really powerful and I didn't know why but maybe it has something to do with what you're talking about Charles. That's cool. Yeah, you're asking about intentionality. Yeah. Like be... And that's

like is the third afterthought. of like you saying the chromatic and then the lyric being like kind of similar and then you saying she kind of just like drops the singing bit and lets it fall out of her mouth and then I'm like well did she do this on purpose? I think oftentimes for us on the show it doesn't matter it's those spontaneous magical moments that just work

and then oftentimes the interpretive aspect of music is one of the beautiful parts of it we can continue to hear whatever we hear in it. So whether or not it's intentional I'm hearing that part and it excites me. I think it's a beautiful little connection. how music can do that. Cool.

It's like a retroactive thing for the writer too, I feel like, because they do things because they're tapping into this like emotional stream that everyone kind of can tap into if you got the right straw. And then afterwards,

you look back and you're like, whoa, I can't even believe. You know what I mean? That moment happened. You said, Sasha will bend the, and you bent the melody. Like, brilliant.

Anyway, I gush. I think that's a really beautiful transition because in terms of tapping into that stream of creativity, there's also tapping into the entire world of music history and genre and all of these references that are happening. So what I want to do in the second half of the show

is dive into the references that we're hearing because there's some really beautiful ones in here. Attention Spotify. It has arrived on the new Good Girl Jasmine Absolute of Carolina Herrera, a fragrance intense with character gourmet and addictive. Imagine a jasmine emvolvente, toffee caramelized and tonka-tostada.

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and customs enforcement agents in Minneapolis Tuesday We will begin the process of returning millions and millions of criminal aliens back to the places from which they can.

But what we want to do in this space is talk about America and politics beyond the current president. So what do most Americans think about deportation and border security, period? I think that Americans are definitely against the kind of violent displays that we've seen in the street from ICE. When it comes to the question of deportation, the answer is more complicated. My sense is that people want border at the border. They don't like the idea of having no idea who's coming into the United States at any given time. The view on immigration from the bottom up instead of the top down. That's this week on America Actually.

Every Saturday in your audio and video feeds. Welcome back to Switched on Pop. What's so funny. The conversation we were just having. Okay. I'm switched back going to pop. Side conversation in the ad break. There are some pretty bold and obvious references happening in this track.

references I think which are an homage to some of our favorite artists undeniably we're hearing Prince and Michael Jackson on this track Michael Jackson oh yeah oh my god enlighten me oh great yeah I'm similar my eyebrows are also raised here Charles oh my god manually I see with the finger there we go eyebrows raised all right so do Michael Jackson first then

all right you're like what in the world is Charles really clear connection, which is that Michael Jackson's hit the way you make me feel and make me feel. I think there's a lot of intentionality here because we're also hearing similarities in form, in structure, in vocal quality, and I think even in sound selection to some of Michael Jackson's music. Dang, you really, that's right. Oh, I went deep. Charlie wants an A. Gold star. Stars just keep in more gold. Let's just listen to the start of the way you make me feel.

1987 hit produced by Quincy Jones. What's the first thing you notice when you hear that track? Oh my God. There's a lot there. Yeah. The drum sounds. Yeah. But what is that, are those drums or is that Michael Jackson's mouth?

It's like, pow, paw, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop. It's so cool. That song is so second nature to my body that I don't even think about it as, like, notes or, like, instruments. It's just like Michael. So you, totally. And I've always had that relationship to it as well until I sort of took a deeper listen last night and I was like, oh my gosh, this is a blues shuffle

as well. It's a blues. The actual time signature is 12-8, which is a... Yeah. I'm so tight. So tight. Da-da-da-da-da-da-da, right? Oh, my God.

He's referencing in 1987 music, which was popular back in the 50s. So here is just an example of... We're just going to go with deep reference for a second. Go, please. So reference to the reference. Michael Jackson, I think, is referencing something like Fats Domino and his track Blueberry.

Hill. I've found my three on blueberry hill. That same 12-8 swing. Yeah. Right? And we listen to Michael Jackson. It just hits harder.

It's faster. It's harder. It's modern. That's what Quincy was talking about. In his interview, he's like, modern music now doesn't reference the greats anymore. They don't reference jazz. If there's no jazz or blues a part of pop music right now,

then it's not good pop music. I was like, okay, Quincy. We'll have to post a link to that. That was the craziest interview that was ever done. You go off to edit it. Yeah. Not appropriate for most people. I like, he can just speak his mind now.

This is a blues. This is a 12-8 sort of shuffle sound. You don't get that time signature very frequently in modern music. I looked up some popular tracks in the last decade. I think Kanye West Black Skinhead is also in 12-8. But there's not a lot. Yeah, yeah. There's a handful of tracks, but it's just, it's not a popular time signature.

Because I think, again, it kind of so strongly alludes to the past that it doesn't make your sound modern. But Michael Jackson and Quincy knew how to do that. Janelle knows how to do that. Wow. So that's the blues piece. Some other things that I think are drawing from Michael Jackson. I love, this is a common trope that people will do. But he does these amazing little dropouts to focus on the voice.

And that's the other thing obviously here as well is vocal quality. Janelle can really get, especially that early MJ kind of androgynous voice. She can really mimic it really beautifully. So here's just an example of the way you make me feel drops out and focuses on Michael's voice. Right. So rewarding. Janelle, make me feel. That's just the way you make me feel.

Just beautiful little moments. There's one more Michael reference that I'm hearing, and this might also be a stretch. Again, this is not like intentionality. This is just, you're tapping into that ether of all the music you know. This is the best opening to any song ever. Oh, yeah.

Beat it. What is that even? That is the song clavier, one of the most expensive synthesizers ever produced. It costs like 100,000. And it was one of the first computational synthesizers that only a handful of studios could afford. So that was a really sort of... One being Michael Jackson and the Beatles.

Okay. Yeah. And so let's just hear that synth stab again. Now, it might sound very 80s, but if you were to roll off some of those highs, make it a little bigger and beefier, you might get the pre-chorus from Make Me Feel. That is a stretch, but I am... I am here for the stretch. I'm yoga with the stretch, babe. Right on.

The pre-course is really interesting. The choice, everything about it. When I first heard it, I was like Max Martin, you know what I mean? Like, it came out of nowhere. Because, like, the verse was, like, so cool and so interesting. And then the pre just felt very, like, now pop. Yeah. Well, it was produced by Mattis Larson and Robin Fredrickson,

who are Swedish producers in the same world as Max Martin. So, yeah, we've also got co-writers of Julian Michaels and Justin Tranter on the track. Shut up. These are super, super, super pop writers and producers supporting it. It felt that way, but then it was Janelle. So I was like, no, man, this was made in a sweaty box with lavender and tea. Okay, so Michael Jackson were like, okay, maybe. But let's go into the Prince references.

So you actually got to work with Prince. Yes. And so did Janelle. The rumor is that actually Prince may have had a hand in producing parts of this album as well as this track. So you get to speak from a lot of authority. That's not hard to believe. I mean, Prince was constantly working on music. Non-stop. Yeah. I mean, there must have been years where he made 200 songs in a year.

Yeah, there's only two people I know that have the craziest catalogs that are going to just be in like the tombs and it's Prince and like Missy Elliott. They just have like albums and albums and albums of music. And it's because like they're the most talented minds in the world and they do what they want to do and they can produce themselves. They write themselves. They emote themselves. They don't need nobody else. And when you have all of that power and all of that talent, there's no stopping you. It's freedom.

So, just so much music, I'm sure she has. Yeah. You know. So on this track, I'm hearing a connection to Prince's Kiss. Are you hearing that at all? Oh, yeah. So, all right, I'm getting back into the, no longer deep into the ether,

get a little more to some... Yeah, we're on board now. And I think a lot of the sonics on this song, just they really say, But Kiss, the 1986 song, was, I think Michael Jackson may have been slightly inspired by it, because it, too, was a blues. And so there was all of a sudden this resurgence of bringing back some references and bluesy tracks. The song continues, and then it goes through a 12-bar blues progression, right? So there's these references that are happening.

And so she's picking up on both the entire musical history of connecting to those blues sounds. I think the much more obvious things are going to be a lot of the sonic element. So I'm curious, what are some of the sonic elements that you're hearing that are like, Okay, there is some prints in there. Well, I mean, definitely the guitar. Yeah. The guitar is just like the giveaway. I mean, who knows, I might actually be prints on guitar.

You never know. Like, honestly, you know, so that was like the biggest thing. But I also be on the track, like vocally, she does a lot of like the, like we just heard. Yeah, right, right. So here's the make me feel funk guitars. You got me right here in your jeans pocket. Laying your body on a track carpet. It's so good.

And here, I mean, this is not just on Kiss. This is just like Prince Funk guitars. But here we go, Kiss Funk Guitar. Yeah. It's amazing. Yeah. If it's not Prince, it's someone playing exactly like him. Exactly like him.

Yeah. And then also there's something in that bass. What does that bass sound? It's not the bass, but it's like the... Yeah, so that's... That's a bass with a... You suddenly cut off all of the high frequencies. so ball okay so it is bass yeah okay and i think it's interesting the kiss actually doesn't really have

any bass in it right but the sparseness of that bass track i think actually maps really well to the sparseness of the electronic drum kit in the sense that he's playing in kiss right it's literally the same groove because the bass is like do wop don't wop and then the and then he does it with and she does it with that wop-oh-oh-w-w-h-but it is the same exact feel it's that it's the same groove man What's so crazy to me about both of them is like how deep of a groove it is while having so little going on in a way. Because like you're right, Charlie, it is sparse. And yet as soon as either of these songs come on, I'm just like bopping so hard. I feel like I'm going to break my neck.

Yeah. There's so many other references here. I mean, a lot of people have gone online and broken down every image in the make me feel music video. In that video, there's a really gorgeous. Janelle wearing this veil. You've seen it, right? And in the video to kiss, one of the dancers is wearing basically a very similar veil. So there's all sorts of moments of homage. And that's what I'm saying, where she's dropping breadcrumbs in every single part. It's all brilliant. I mean, it's like a very, like, well-deserved passing of a torch, too. She's, she's incredible.

And I think that she has everything that it takes to keep the legacy alive, you know, especially being a black woman too which I think was really important to Prince and when I saw that I was like let's go like keep it going keep it alive because there's a lot that's dying around us and Janelle in this song like as on the nose as it is is so important you know yeah to Prince's legacy or to like the legacy of music right good music and the blues like you're saying like nobody nobody plays the blues nobody listens to the blues anymore you know and then obviously also the cultural side and being someone who makes non-sexual duality permissive.

And that's such a big part of princes, androgynous, just unbelievably attractive to anyone's sort of quality. And she's making a similar sort of statement in part of the song. That's really true. Then Kiss, yeah, because kiss is like... Kisses a very adorable song. This is one of my favorite lines right here.

And he goes on to say, like, don't flirt too hard. Like, you just got to be yourself. He's like, don't do too much. Don't be extra about it. Just like be yourself, you're already sexy. Just talk dirty to me though. So was Prince the original king of ASMR? Because that was pretty, that got me.

Oh, did that get you going? Both eyebrows going up right now. I know that. Not even manually this time. What do they do to the mic, like to get that good whisper? Is a lot of compression or is it, what do they do? They boost something. Oh, well, yeah, they probably boosts a lot of the high end, I would imagine.

So you can just get right in there. Kind of like, you know how Selena Gomez has? that um can keep my hands on my way so yeah we cover that are you guys did oh it's such a good song but like that effect maybe prince did originate that yep just getting on that mic it's that close mic getting real close yeah quietly and really sexy and it's that proximity effect by getting really on that mic you get all the deeper tonal qualities you can't hear it's the yin yang twins effect that's what i like to call the ying yang twins You guys got to do the whisper song

Nothing was the same after that You obviously just know all these references And have so much to offer here But I thought it would be appropriate To get to hear a little bit about your music Oh yeah What I wanted to do was listen to a bit of your song Truth hurts

Great Yeah I can't get enough of it baby But I just first want to say that I said on the top of the show Your music has really connected With our listeners Your song Good As Hell

came in as a recommendation through one of our panelists, Andrea Warner, who is just a really fantastic writer. And we did a piece called All About Those Baseline Assumptions about Feminism and Pop. And we brought in some great feminist scholars to sort of look at the way in which feminism is represented in popular music. And that track was sort of like the kicker climax end of the piece where Andrew was like, this is an awesome example of a modern feminist anthem. And so that became a real favorite of ours and the entire. Shout out to Andrea. Yeah.

She's awesome. And then I tuned into your South by Southwest performance that NPR taped last year and dang. Yeah. Dang is right, guys. Dang, you are powerful. You've got a message. Double dang. Your music is fun.

Yeah. I really love the fun that you bring. Easy on the ears. You know what I mean? Just like, you know, I'm needing some things which just are exciting and inspiring. I really appreciate that. Why I'm in great So they got a bit

Tell us straight to me That song is so funny Can you tell us a little bit About what the song is for you That song is like a literal afternoon And to be honest This was last summer And I was like

Man So done with my album That hasn't come out yet I'm like I'm done Wow I really You know And so I was going in with Ricky Reed

Who is the producer on the song And we were like We can either finish Some things Talk about the album where we can make something new today. And I was in such a bad mood. I was so angry over this person that I, you know, allowed to get to me.

And I just started, like, venting. And I was like, you know, like, I don't understand why. Like, da-da-da-da-da-da. I had to go to my friend's salon and get my hair done today. And every line in this song, it was coming out of my mouth. And as this was coming out of my mouth, Ricky was writing it down, I guess. But I was, like, laying on his couch, like, kind of like, therapist style. yelling at the world.

And when I was done, he was like, you know, I just want you to hear all the things you just said. We should like make a song. And I was like, okay. And it was just so easy. Yeah. It was so easy.

There are two lines that really stood out to me. Obviously, right from the top, why men great until they got to be great? Oh, yeah. Boom. I know. Beautiful economy of words there. Thank you.

That didn't happen in the studio. That happened when I had, me and my girls were on tour and we all had like a full bottle of wine to ourselves for some odd reason and we were all like guzzling them and each girl was in a corner with another girl like crying about either like because we love each other so much or everyone's having a moment my moment and my my dancer just happened to be that moment and I remember we were just like why are me crazy and I remember like she was like yo write that down yeah and I texted it to Ricky and yeah I was like we're going to use this in the future but You know, it's not about men, like, it's not about you. It's not about you. It's about like, I know, but like it's... It's about, like, the idea of men always getting the highest seat of power. Absolutely.

And always kind of, like, failing us. I think we're witnessing a lot of that in the world. Right. Yeah. And that's the issue. It's like you only give men the highest seat. Why don't you give it to everybody and see what everyone can do with it? And then on a very personal level, it's like, yeah.

It's like, you are, the idea of you is incredible. And then when I actually apply you to my life, I'm just kind of disappointed and let down constantly. Why aren't you showing up? Why don't you show up, bro? I feel like that line could go in so many different directions. And one of my favorite lines you respond to it with is, I put the singing single, ain't worried about a ring on my finger. Yeah.

Which is also, I mean, what a fun line. Because you could flip the script. It's like, I don't need you. Yeah. That was like an Instagram caption that I put on my picture once. I was like, it's okay, guys. I'll be okay because I put the singing single. I am like the quintessential single girl. I'm like such a single girl and I'm going through all the single girl motions. And I think that's why people, you know, no matter what they're going through, no matter what their gender is or sexuality is like kind of connect to that because it's all the same. You know, when you're solo dolo and you're on your own in this world, you just have this like really shared.

experience with other people, especially as a millennial, you know? And they're just like, I'm going through the same thing, you know? So all of my music is kind of like shared experience. Well, I think it'll be appropriate since this is what's on pop, we want to talk about the music of what's going on here. And part of what I love about the melody is it has almost this like schoolyard quality where everybody can sing along to it. And so it really invites that participation that you're talking about. Like people can feel that same quality that you're expressing. Yeah, it's really snotty, isn't it? I'm not really singing and I'm not really rap. and I'm just kind of like whining.

But it invites everybody to do the same with you. Right. Because everybody feels exasperation. Everybody wants to just scream that at the top of their lungs. And then you end it with the best reference ever. What? The sister Nancy, bam. Whoa, that's wild. I didn't even think about that.

No way. Yeah. So let's listen to the end of your track for just a second. Yeah. And then here's the sister Nancy. Oh, what up? Yo, that's genius. It's such a frequent reference within R&B and hip-hop. It's a texture that people will just, boom. Interesting. I mean, that was like a seat filler for lyrics.

No way. And then we couldn't really think of anything. I remember we were listening to the chorus and truth hurts didn't exist yet. It was just the chorus. Wiremen great till I got to be great. And then I was like, who, truth hurts, Doug. And then Ricky's like, that's incredible. Go put that in there.

truth hurts. And then we wanted to have one more line. Yeah. And we just put in bum, I was like, bum bum, bum, be dumb, be dumb, day. And then after like sitting, after like messing around with the beat, he messed around with the beat. And I just sat and reflected. I was like, yo, that goes. Oh, it just like, it closes things out with this beautiful finality. And you don't have to say anything. Yeah. I'm good. I'm just going to go on and. Yeah. Because now live when I do it, I'm just like, it's kind of like the arms out emoji that's like shoulder shrug. Kanye shrug? It's like, hey, you bum?

Wow, that's so nice that Sister Nancy reference. I'm living for that. You guys are so smart. That Sister Nancy track is, it's also kind of like, Hey, Lottie, Lottie. It's like one of those things

just, talk about that musical ether. Like, it wasn't even intentional. It's just like, it's out there because you've heard it. Like, Kanye's done that track. Like, so many other people have used that. What a beautiful thing. So cool.

And just within the whole thing, you know, I love that you're using this really sort of funny toy piano effect with a heavy trap beat. And I feel like you do a really great job of lyrically representing both of those qualities of it's like it's a banger, it's super fun, and it's also lighthearted at the same time. Thanks. I thought that piano was so weird when he first, because it was just the piano. And I was like, yo, we're not going to make a song on this wonky piano. But he just has these weird sounds. And that was one of them. And I love it now. But when I first heard it, it turned me off because it's so weird, right? But you put that trap. beat on and it's like, hey, let's go. I was there for, like, the creation of the song.

Like, I love being there for, like, the egg and the embryo and the baby of the beat. Like, I... Because I feel like my energy's in there, too, when that's happening. Because if he's playing with sounds, I go, hey, that's me, too. So, like, I feel really connected to truth hurts because I was there from, you know, conception. That's a fun part of modern production. I love when the vocal production ends up back into the track, right? that it's not sort of just like beat, done,

throw some vocals on top. You've got those ad lib lines and then all of a sudden that's in some ways what makes that track because all of a sudden the bum bum, bum, beatum just perfectly closes that verse. Yeah.

It's an awesome refrain. And he mirrors it in the drumming. Oh, he does. He does afterwards. He put that boom, boom, boom, boom. That was a later thing. Wow. So there's this back and forth

that's going on between vocalists and producer. Y'all ever do this with other artists? This is so fun. Because we don't be thinking about this. Like, when I make music, I am a music major. So I've studied music theory. I'm a music nerd. I analyze other things.

But when I'm making mine, it's so subconscious. Totally. It's freestyle mostly now. And so to hear it come back in this way is like so exciting. People will sometimes ask us this. I actually got another message recently. It was like, okay, seriously, are you guys just making this stuff up? And I think of the music you make.

You're like an Olympic athlete. You have trained yourself to know how to make music. And then when you do it, you have to do it without any conscious effort. Right. Right. It's that stream of creativity. You're just like tapping into as soon as you get into the logical brain, all this nonsense that I'm bringing here today, you lose it. It gets hard.

It gets really hard. Didn't Bob Dylan say that? He was like, music shouldn't be hard. Music should be easy to make. Someone told me he said that. And I was like, yeah, man. It's frustrating, but it's like also, you know, the type of artist is. he is, you know.

Absolutely. Yeah, I can just pen a 17-page long song in 10 minutes. Yeah. Yeah, he's kind of crazy. You're incredibly multi-talented. You are also the host of a hit podcast on Spotify.

I am a host of a podcast on Spotify called Good As Hell. You're single. And your podcast. And is my song, look, I'm smart too. You know, I say I cross-promotion. So this is a Spotify Studios and Refinery 29 collaboration. and you are talking to the iconic queens of music.

You interviewed people like Lil Kim, Kaylani, Trina, De Brat, really some of the most amazing people. On the show, you speak with women who you say, paved the way for not just hip-hop, but mainstream culture and feminism, and never get to tell their stories. Right. Well, you tell us a little bit about,

you say you have to defend your heroes for not getting credit for innovation and influence. What inspired you to take on this show? So they came to me. I've always kind of had the idea of telling the quote unquote female rapper story, but you know what's so annoying is you have these two separate things happening. You have the worst question in the world,

what's it like to be a female rapper in the industry? Isn't it so hard? Like I, it's actually raptor. I'm just kidding. But like, yeah, it's like so hard. I'm like, you're perpetuating that it's hard to be a woman rap. Then on the way other side, you're almost being bombarded in interviews and by the media. And so you see a lot of women who,

rap with big walls up and are really defensive and a lot of times uncomfortable in interviews. So I saw both of those and I was like, yo, what's Queen Latifah story? All I know is that she's Queen Latifah. But if you think about like Jay-Z or if you think about Nas, like you always hear the story of the hustler, you know, and I'm like, that's really cool. Like I know a lot of details about their lives. I don't know a lot of details about Little Kim's life except for the tragic parts or like the parts that they, the negative parts that they want, or the Biggie Smalls parts.

The stuff that ends up on TMZ, the, you know, not the real story. Right. And I felt like maybe that's not as exciting to the media, but it also perpetuates this idea

that like black women and hip hop are tragic or are too tough or are competitive. And that's not the case. What I found out talking to these women is that there is and was so much unity

in the rap community with women especially. They would have sleepovers. They would hang out. They would write songs. Like Missy would just like have them all come over and just like party together. They were like sisters. Like they would tell me stories about Eve and left eye and like Alia and how they would just all like kick it.

And I'm like, this is so cool. And I wish that we knew that this was going on then because now I want there's so many women in the industry coming up now. And that was so nice to talk to Kaylani and like Aquafina. Yeah. And I feel like if we only have. that blueprint or we had knowledge of that. We could use that in the future to create more unity. And ladies' night came from that.

You know, like only good music comes from women being in agreement with each other. And so it's my little way of trying to bring unity in the hip-hop community and to also step back and, like, open up this dark hallway that we don't have any clue. We're afraid of. We're like, what's the 90s rap for women? 90s rap for black women? I'm not going to look down that hallway, but no. Like look down that hallway. Take a walk down the archives and hopefully in the future young girls can listen to this and be like, wow, like Lil Kim is so innovative and Trina is so innovative. That is such a beautiful project. I also love that you had this question of what's their real story and you're like,

I'm just going to go find out what an awesome thing to get to do. I really particularly loved your interview with Kalani. Kalani is one of my absolute favorite artists right now. As she should be. spoke specifically about that and we were we were sort of alluding it to it in your music as well is the positivity of music the fun that can exist within it could you speak a little bit about some of the things that came out in that interview and why the fun in that music is important to you

in my music or in this is a two-part question huh? Oh you never were supposed to ask two-part questions no no it's okay no with with canelani we have so much fun because she and I we're similar in like the way that we respect music we're both tourists but like even the way we write music and I think that

Like, my life was way different than hers, though. She had to come from this really negative place in her life. She had a lot that happened to her when she was younger that wasn't tight. I don't have a better word for it. She went through a lot. And so, like, you can hear a lot of strife in her music and a lot. But I think that you get to a point in your artistry that you want to manifest positivity for yourself and you want to spread positivity.

I feel like as an artist, the more that you, like, sing about the negative. creativity in life, the more your life starts to reflect that. I don't know how many artists you've talked to, but there are so many self-fulfilling prophecies that happen. And good and bad, you know, like, I've said things like, I'm talking about being in Scotland and a rap and then I'm like, looking up and I'm like, well, I'm playing in Scotland or like, you know, I talk about McCauley Calkin. And then I go on tour with McCauley Calkland and he's in my music video. And like, there's just like so many, you know what I mean? There's like levels to it. But then there's also on the other side, if you're perpetuating, I'm so sad today, I'm just going to drink today, I'm so depressed today,

you're going to kind of feel that. And I think that Kalani just got to a point in her life where she's like, I don't want to perpetuate that or I don't need that around me. And she's really strong. She's like one of the strongest people I've ever been around to see what she's gone through and to see how she's getting through it. But positivity is important because I think there's a lot of different kinds of music that need to exist.

Yeah, yeah. I think the weekend should exist as much as. You know, as good as hell. As good as hell. Thank you. Let me talk about myself. The weekend needs to exist just like I need to exist because life is about a balance and art is about the balance of darkness and light quite literally sometimes.

And I tried to straddle a line. I wanted to be like Siza. I wanted to be so cool and like moody and just like and that music just doesn't sound authentic coming from me. And I remember bringing it all the way back to Prince. he had really come to a place where it was just all his music was super positive. All of his music was super clean. All of his music was like about uplifting women, uplifting black women.

And I remember being like really, really impressed and shocked by that. And when he passed away or when he transitioned, I remember thinking I'm not going to try to be this sad girl anymore. Like what's the point of like fighting? Because people were actually being like, why she's so happy? Like she's so, people were hating on me. Yes. I know, but like people would hate on that. Y'all will not believe.

They're like, she's too friendly. Why is she so happy? Like, ugh. And so I would try to have like, I would try to have like some type of like darkness or shade to me. But after that I kind of completely dedicated my life to positive music. And it's worked for me. Ever since I decided to do that, like it's my truth. Everyone has their truth.

If the weekend want to be sad, let him sing the sad songs. That's his truth. You know, if Sizzle wants to be, you know, the angst and the longing that she exudes, like, let her live that. That's her truth. And, you know, I don't think if you're not, like, as positive and as happy, go lucky as I am, you don't have to do this, but I'm choosing to do it. And I hope that people really just respect that. And, you know, live your life, live your life in the balance. Don't stay in the darkness. Don't stay in the light. Your music does a beautiful job of that because it's so often real. Like the track, Truth

hurts, right? There's some pain in there. Yo, I was so sad. Yeah, but you're, but you're, you know, And you move right through it. I was so sad. And like that's what happens when I'm sad, you guys. Like, good as hell. I say he don't love you anymore in a song. And it's like the happiest song in the world. It's the happiest song.

I can't fight it. Please don't. So people can experience this live coming up real soon. You are going on a huge, I think over 20 show tour throughout North America with Hym. Yeah. You are calling it the sister, sister tour. Well, I'm calling it the sister. Sister, sister, sister, sister.

Oh, right on. Tour. What are listeners going to experience on this upcoming tour? Well, first off, Haim is just so cool. Like, they're the sweetest girls. And they're, like, BA musicians. I was going to cuss. But they're great musicians.

And I think it's going to be really cool to see me, the big girls, DJ Sophia Erez, and then to see the sisters, like, getting down on stage. Like, we all rock out in our own ways. my show I originated in indie rock and then I evolved into indie hip hop and now I'm whatever I am now

But like A Melange of amazing music Yeah But like the You said I'm a launge I did Ooh is that like Solange's sister But look

I like So we rock out on stage So you're gonna see like a really Really dope show You're gonna see high energy You're gonna see sweat And then you're gonna see tons of hair

Just tons of hair I'm so excited like we thrive live. That's my bread and butter. And tickets are selling out. We're doing two nights at Radio City Music Hall. That's awesome. And I think they both sold out.

Almost. So buy your tickets, New York for the second night. And people can find tickets on Lizzoomusic.com. LizzoMusic.com. And they can find all sorts of great tracks. We will watch her to post it in the show. You will hear truth hurts and good as hell. Spoiler alert.

Well, this has been the most fun show I've ever recorded. I don't know about you, Nate. Y'all just saying it. We're having a really good time. Thank you so much for joining us. Thank you for me. I'm just jealous. I'm not there with you.

Oh, I'll see you later. I'll see you in New York. Okay. As soon as we hang up, I'm getting my ticket. Yaws, guys. Get them. They're going quick. Switched on Pop was produced by me, Charlie Harding, and my buddy, Professor

Nate Sloan. Thank you, Lizzo. You can find Lizzo's music and her podcast Good As Hell on Spotify. You can get tickets to her tour at LizzoMusic.com. You definitely want to go. Catcher and the sister, sister, sister, sister, tour, it's going to be awesome. I, no, I tried.

I'm really sorry. Charles. Our sound editing and mixing is done by Bill Lance, designed by Luke Harris. We are a proud member of the Panoply Network. You can find our episodes on Apple and on Spotify. And I guess we'll be back in two weeks with more episodes. You can find past ones.

Also on switchdownpop.com. Talk to us on Twitter at Switchdown Pop. And I think that's it. Thanks for listening. Thanks for listening.