Switched on Pop - ICYMI: How to 'Make Me Feel' with Lizzo

Episode Date: September 3, 2019

"Make Me Feel," is the first hit from Janelle Monáe's 2018 album Dirty Computer,  and a sensual song about the fluidity of desire. In the pre-chorus, the singer proudly expresses that she is a "sexual bender." Fans have embraced the song for breaking free of normative sexual expectations. But these non-binary statements aren't limited to the lyrics. The message is reinforced with musical concepts drawn from the blues, Prince and Michael Jackson. To help break down this track, Nate and Charlie are joined by singer/rapper Lizzo. She and Monáe both collaborated with Prince, making Lizzo uniquely qualified to unwind his influence on the song. We also discuss Lizzo's song "Truth Hurts" and her podcast "Good As Hell" where she talks to the queens of hip hop. Hands down, Lizzo is one of the most talented, knowledgable and fun guests. You don't want to miss this episode. Songs DiscussedJanelle Monáe - Make Me FeelMichael Jackson - The Way You Make Me FeelMichael Jackson - Beat ItFats Domino - Blueberry HillPrince - KissYing Yang Twins - Wait (The Whisper Song)Lizzo - Truth HurtsSister Nancy - Bam Don't miss Lizzo's podcast "Good As Hell" on Spotify Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

If you're tired of endless scrolling to figure out where to eat, same. I'm Stephanie Wu, editor-in-chief of Eater. We've just launched the new-ish and way better Eater app. It has all the restaurants we love, gives you personalized picks wherever you are, and serves up smarter search results just for you. You can find my list of the best places for martinis and fries in New York City. And save your favorite spots, share lists, follow editors, and book right in the app. the Eater app at Eaterapp.com. It's free for iOS users. Hello everyone, Nate here. We're taking this week off, but in the meantime, please enjoy one of our favorite ever episodes, a breakdown of Janelle Monase, Make Me Feel, featuring the one and only Lizzo. Welcome to Switchdown Pop. I'm songwriter Charlie Harding. And I'm musicologist Nate Sloan. And today we are joined by Lizzo, singer, rapper, and host of the podcast, Good As Hell, a partnership with Spotify and our

Finery 29. We are so honored to have you here as your music has been a absolute hit with our listeners. Thanks for joining us. Yeah. Yeah. You forgot something. I'm flute player. No way. Really?

Yeah, flute and piccolo. So add that to your list. Gosh darn it. So you're here to help us deconstruct the brilliant new single, Make Me Feel by Janelle Monet. We are also going to get to talk about your music and your upcoming tour and your show. So much fun stuff. But I want to just get right into it. We're going to talk about Janameh and her awesome new track.

You're familiar. I am. I got to freak out on her about it. Yeah. I saw her. She invited me to this brunch. And then I was like, sis, so last time I saw her, I had like big curly hair. And then this time I saw her had long straight hair.

And I was like, sis, you just tamed my curl pattern. You snatched my wig. I knew you was going to drop something, but I didn't know. You killed it. She's like, thank you. Like I was blown away. Like the double release, you know, like the. Armageddon drops is.

Yeah. That was actually my favorite part about it, but once again, this is switched on pop, not switched on, you know, a song release. So let's talk about the actual song. Let's talk about the song. So on Make Me Feel, I think what we're hearing is a bending, a blending,

this non-dualistic message of blending sexuality, blending genres, blending sounds, blending harmonies, and melodies. And what we want to do is we want to break this down and figure out how does she accomplish this musically. and so I think the appropriate thing to do would of course be to take a listen to the track Yes

Let's do it That's just the way you make me feel That's just the way you make me feel That's just the way you make me feel Wait say more The ASMR chorus That's just the way Oh, yeah.

A whisper chorus. I'm always a fan. Oh, interesting. Yeah. She really came through. I didn't make that connection, though. Reenforced by the really sort of lo-fi beatboxing in the opening. Just like...

Oh, yeah. You know, that kind of thing, right? Oh, it's so mouthy, right? I think it's probably important that we establish what's happening in the song. Just broadly, what do you feel the song is trying to say? Is she explicitly talking about bisexuality? or is she just talking about sexuality? Right.

I think that's more what she was going for than being like, you know, this is my specifics. It's so much more broad than that. The way you make me feel like anyone can sing that about anybody in any way. And I think that's what makes it even bigger than just kind of like her identifying with the sexuality. And everyone's like, oh my God, she came out.

I'm like, what do you mean? No, she wrote a song about like what we should all be singing about, you know? Absolutely. Like freeing our mind. not being restricted to certain pronouns and songs and just because we feel like that's how we're supposed to say it because society wouldn't understand, you know?

She's just doing her. Yeah. Nate, what's your take? I totally agree. I mean, that's, to me, what makes the song so universal. Anyone can relate to this because of that feeling of excitement, that kind of rush that the lyrics of the song capture. I'm excited to get into the music

and figure out how the music is also giving us that feeling of excitement and that crazy adrenaline rush. Yeah. Yeah, the song is the musical version of like an endorphin rush. Right? She like wrote how you feel sonically how you would feel when you're like Bugs Bunny with the hard eyes floating and you're like, woo, like that's what the song,

that's the sonic feel of it. And lyrically too, you're just like, I don't even know. I think there's some really important backstory that for those who might not be as familiar with Janelma's entire body of work, she largely has produced work which is allegorical, these epic sweets called Metropolis, where she plays another character. She's not even playing herself,

or it's the blending of her identity. She was the Arc Android. The Arc Android, Cindy Mayweather in, I think, what is it, the year 2719 or something. And she uses the metaphor of an android for all kinds of modern-day oppression. and also for her own self-expression. It's incredibly beautiful.

Now, on this track, it feels like we're getting a little bit more potentially personality, but I really agree with what you say, Lizzo. Like, we never know who the narrator is, right? Like, it's a song, and a song is here to represent any number of people. People like to dissect, okay, yeah, but which one's, like, actually, like, Janelle Monet.

But that's all we're here to do. We're here to talk about the music, which is exciting. I always say there's, like, two different kinds... Well, there's three different kind of artists. Yeah. And I think there's the vocal performer that can emote someone else's song really well. Then there's two kinds of writers, though.

There's like, right, there's the fantasy writer. Always, like, compare to, like, a Tyler, the creator. He's just, like, creates fantasy and, like, talks about things that may not even have happened. And then you have writers who are, like, extremely personal and, like, almost, like, stream of conscious, like, when you're listening to, like, Kanye. And you're like, oh, my God, this just happened to you last week, didn't it?

You know? And I think that Janelle is always going to be a fantasy writer. Like, even if she's talking about herself, she's created a world where it's just a novel. It's like the Lord of the Rings, you know? So she's Frodo and she's Gans off. And you know what I mean? And you never know. Like, the real Janelle might be in there. She might be Gimley, but she'll never know. She has that little glint in her eye that's like, wink. Well, I really support the way that you framed it. I think there are a lot of clues in here that allude to both sexual tension and also sexual non-duality.

She's been interviewed many times and even in her music, she sort of remains intentionally opaque because, as she says, she wants to be attractive to all people and she wants all people to be attracted to all people. And yeah, there's no contest. I think she's reinforcing this message both lyrically and musically. So I want to look at the melody specifically. And just right from the very top of the track, one of her great traits is constantly referencing the future and the past at the same time. And what's neat about this track is it's actually, it's a blues. It has a subtle blues progression. And she uses a lot of seventh chords and chromaticism and things that, frankly, wouldn't be popular in a lot of modern R&B, which sort of, I think, intentionally moves away from those sounds because it might sound sort of pastiche or too old.

But she's not afraid to adopt those and fit them into her song. Right. Well, I think there's a reason why she does this. Because, yeah. Why? Getting some wide eyes here. She opens her song with... Maybe don't make me spell it out for you.

Oh my gosh. Can you please join us all the time? Exactly. And that line is surrounding this strong seventh. Yeah. You hear that? Yeah. Tension.

Tension. Isn't it so rewarding? What is that tension doing for? It's like, how do you hear that tension? How does it support the song? It's so funny because, like tension in a song normally happens in like the pre. Yes.

And the first verse is supposed to just feel right. It's supposed to be at what like the root is supposed to be like it. Yeah. The one. One note melody. Simple. You're like, here we go. Let me just.

You know what I mean? And then she's like starting like and you're like, what's about to happen? Like that's what it does for me. That melody, da-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-n-n-n-n-n-n-remines. It reminds me of a movie. Like you take the track out of it and if you just hear that melody like on some violin, it sounds like

you know like cinematic yeah super sim like it's a moment in a movie where like the little kid is running and he's running towards something like it feels like I don't know like so tension at the start

and I think it's worth saying even for maybe for some of our listeners who may not be as familiar with music it might be helpful to even just to play an example of if you were open up on a plain major chord and then you have a seventh chord and that seventh chord it's unstable yeah and it's the real

root as opposed to that nice beautiful thing. Unresolved chords were always like my kryptonite. I remember because when they would play unresolved chords, I'd be like, just resolve it. Just resolve it. And she does because that chord wants to go somewhere. It wants to go in the progression of a blues. A typical 12 bar blues chord progression uses a lot of those seventh notes to have us constantly move through a progression and always have a little bit of instability to create movement.

Right? So a blues is going to start right on that whole chord, that one. and add the seventh. And it's going to move for the four, the five, back to the four, and back home to the one, seven. That's sort of the blues progression. Lots of seventh, lots of tension. And if there's one thing that is happening in the song, there is tension and there is movement. And she fulfills that sort of blues expectation by moving to what would be the next blues chord.

She goes from the one chord. To the four chord. Right? Oh, it's like dung. Doong, doong, do, do, do, do. Exactly. That is so the blues. That's so tight.

And you're not hearing? You really broke it down. Thank you. I appreciate that. Okay, so I've got another... Gold star for Charlie. I know, right? That was up late.

I have another supporting piece of evidence. And it's chromatic text painting. I think the line that a lot of people have zeroed in on this song is, it's like I'm powerful with a little bit of tender. an emotional sexual bender. So that's the pre-course. As you said, the pre-chorus is typically

where we get even more tension. I think there's no denying. The tension only increases because not only does she use that seventh note, but she introduces chromaticism. Notes outside of the scale, things which are going to create disharmony, confusion, dissonance.

But you know what else? It's like descending chromatic. So like it was so unexpected when I heard that I was like, wait a second. Wait, you know, like there's ten. but like when you have like a descending chromatic your body physically will go down too you know you're like uh yeah oh okay it's almost relaxing it's like she builds tension and then i mean children are listening to this so i won't say what it actually reminds me of but you're building tension and then it's like a release and then you build that tension again it's very tantric until you get to the yeah the climax of the hook right but like pre's normally gradually build right it's like she came in so hot yeah with that da da tant tant tant tant And then she, like, backed off and was like, ah, not yet. I'm like, oh, my God.

I've never heard a pre actually tease me like that before. So I think it would be appropriate to just play an example of just to hear this. So here's the pre. It's like I'm partial no sexual bender mess. That's just the way you make. So just when she sings that line, that chromaticism, the, no, no, no, no. That's when she's singing the word sexual bender. And so she's inferring that anyone listening can.

sexually fluid they don't have to be normative in their sexual preferences and she reinforces it with a line which sort of blurs between one note and the next there's sort of an uncertainty and a spectrum of sounds that's very literal I wonder if it's also blurring sort of between like speech and song you know she's like not totally singing it it's like kind of half spoken I found that really powerful and I didn't know why but maybe it has something to do with what you're talking about Charles that's cool yeah you're asking asking about intentionality. Yeah. Like, and that's like is the third

afterthought of like you saying the chromatic and then the lyric being like kind of similar and then you saying she kind of just like drops the singing bit and lets it fall out of her mouth and then I'm like, well, did she do this on purpose? I think oftentimes for us on the show, it doesn't matter. Yeah. It's those spontaneous magical moments

that just work. And then oftentimes the interpretive aspect of music is one of the beautiful parts of it. We can continue to hear whatever we hear in it. So whether or not, it's intentional. I'm hearing that part and I just it excites me. I think it's a beautiful. Isn't that wild how music can do that? Cool. It's like a retroactive thing for the writer too, I feel like, because they do things because they're tapping into this like emotional stream that everyone kind of can tap into if you if you got the right straw. And then afterwards,

you look back and you're like, whoa, I can't even believe. You know what I mean? That moment happened. You said, sasha will bend the and you bent the melody. Like, brilliant. Anyway, yeah. Well, I'm, I, gosh. I think that's a really beautiful transition because in terms of tapping into that stream of creativity, there's also tapping into the entire world of music history and genre and all of these references that are happening. So what I want to do in the second half of the show is dive into the references that we're hearing because there's some really beautiful ones in here. Oh, yeah. Maria, you have a podcast now and you need to start acting like it. What's the first step as a podcaster? Well, you have to ask lots of questions.

I'm Maria Sharpova and I'm hosting a new podcast called Pretty Tough. Every week, I'm sitting down with trailblazing women at the top of their game to discuss ambition, work ethic, and the ups and downs that come on the path to achieving greatness. I have a few pretty tough questions for you. Okay. Ready? Ready. Do not sugarcoat something for me. No, no. No.

We'll dive into their stories and get valuable insights from top executives, actors, entrepreneurs, and other individuals who have inspired me so much. in my own journey. Pretty tough is your front row seat to the women who have demonstrated the power in being unapologetic in their pursuits. I hope you'll join us. New episodes drop Wednesdays on YouTube or in your favorite podcast app. Immigration may be Donald Trump's signature issue. President Trump is now targeting predominantly democratic cities for ice raids and deportations. Dozens of protesters clashing with immigration and customs enforcement agents in Minneapolis Tuesday. We will begin the process of returning millions and millions. of criminal aliens back to the places from which they came.

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Welcome back to Switched on Pop. What's so funny. The conversation we were just having. Okay. I'm switched back on to Pop. Side conversation in the ad break. there are some pretty bold and obvious references happening in this track. References, I think, which are an homage to some of our favorite artists.

Undeniably, we're hearing Prince and Michael Jackson on this track. Michael Jackson. Oh, yeah. Oh, my God, enlighten me. Oh, great. Yeah, I'm similar. My eyebrows are also raised here, Charles. Oh, my God.

Manually, I see you with a finger. There we go. What? Eyebrows raised. All right. So do you want to do Michael Jackson first then? Yes. All right.

You're like, what in the world is Charlie thinking? There's an really clear connection, which is that Michael Jackson's hit the way you make me feel and make me feel. I think there's a lot of intentionality here because we're also hearing similarities in form, in structure,

in focal quality, and I think even in sound selection to some of Michael Jackson's music. Dang. You really, that's right. Oh, I went deep. Wow. Charlie wants an A.

Gold star. Stars is keeping more gold. Please. Let's just listen to the start of the way you make me feel. 1987 hit produced by Quincy Jones. What's the first thing you notice when you hear that track? Oh, my God. There's a lot there.

Yeah. The drum sounds. Yeah. But are those drums or is that Michael Jackson's mouth? It's like, pow, pow, pow. It's so cool. That song is so second nature to my body that I don't even think about it as like notes or like instruments.

It's just like Michael. Totally. And I've always had that relationship to it as well until I sort of took a deeper listen last night. And I was like, oh my gosh, this is a blues shuffle as well. It's a blues. The actual time signature is 128, which is a, yeah. I'm so tight.

I'm so tight. So tight. So he's referencing in 1987, music which was popular back in the 50s. So here is just an example of, we're just going to go with deep reference for a second. So reference to the reference. Michael Jackson, I think,

is referencing something like Fats Domino and his track Blueberry Hill. I've found my three-o, Blueberry Hill, Berry Hill. That same 12-8 swing. Yeah. Right? And we listen to Michael Jackson.

It just hits harder. It's faster. It's harder. It's modern. That's what Quincy was talking about. In his interview, he's like, Modern music now doesn't reference the greats anymore. They don't reference jazz.

If there's no jazz or blues are part of pop music right now, then it's not good pop music. I was like, okay, Quincy. We'll have to post it a link to that. That was the craziest interview that was ever done. I know, you've got to edit it. Yeah. Right.

Not appropriate for most people. I like that he can just speak his mind now. This is a blues. This is a 12-8 sort of shuffle sound. You don't get that time signature very frequently in modern music. I looked up some popular tracks in the last decade. I think Kanye, Kanye West's black skinhead is also in 12-8

But there's not a lot Yeah, yeah, there's a handful of tracks But it's just not a popular time signature Because I think again, it kind of so strongly Alludes to the past That it doesn't make your sound modern But Michael Jackson and Quincy knew how to do that Janelle knows how to do that

Wow, so that's the blues piece Some other things that I think are drawing from Michael Jackson I love, this is a common trope that people will do But he does these amazing little dropouts To focus on the voice And that's the other thing obviously here as well vocal quality. Janelle can really get, especially that early MJ kind of androgynous voice, she can really mimic it really beautifully. So here's just an example

of the way that the way you make me feel drops out and focuses on Michael's voice. Right. So rewarding. Janelle make me feel. That's just the way you make me feel. I just beautiful little moments. There's one more Michael reference that I'm hearing. And this might also be a stretch. Again, this is not like intentionality. This is just right. You're tap it into that ether of all the music you know. This is the best opening to any song ever. Oh, yeah. Beat it. What is that even? That is the song Clavier, one of the most expensive synthesizers ever produced. It cost like $100,000. And it was one of the first computational synthesizers that only a handful of studios could afford. So that was a really sort of...

One being Michael Jackson and the Beatles. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And so let's just hear that synth stab again. Now, it might sound very 80s, but if you were to roll off some of those highs, make it a little bigger and beefier, you might get the pre-chorus from Make Me Feel. That is a stretch, but I am here for the stretch. I'm yoga with the stretch, babe. The pre-course is really interesting. The choice, everything about it. When I first heard it, I was like, Max Martin, you know what I mean? Like, it came out of nowhere.

Because, like, the verse was, like, so cool and so interesting. And then the pre just felt very like now pop. Yeah. Well, it was produced by Mattis Larson and Robin Fredrickson, who are Swedish producers in the same world as Max Barton. So, yeah, we've also got co-writers of Julian Michaels and Justin Trancher on the track. So, yeah, this is like, these are super, super, super pop writers and producers supporting it. It felt that way.

But then it was Janelle. So I was like, no, man, this was made in a sweaty box with lavender and tea. Okay. So Michael Jackson were like, no, okay, maybe. But let's go into the Prince references. So you actually got to work with Prince. Yes. And so did Janelle.

The rumor is that actually Prince may have had a hand in producing parts of this album as well as this track. So you get to speak from a lot of authority. That's not hard to believe. I mean, Prince was constantly working on music. Non-stop. Yeah. I mean, there must have been years where he made 200 songs in a year.

Yeah, there's only two people I know that have the craziest catalogs. that are going to just be in like the tombs and it's Prince and like Missy Elliott. They just have like albums and albums and albums of music. And it's because like they're the most talented minds in the world and they, you know, do what they want to do and they can produce themselves. They write themselves.

They emote themselves. They don't need nobody else. And when you have all of that power and all of that talent, there's no stopping you. It's freedom. So just so much music. I'm sure she has. Yeah.

You know. So on this track, I'm hearing a connection to Prince's Kiss. Are you hearing that at all? Oh, yeah. Definitely. So, all right, I'm getting back into the, no longer deep into the ether, get a little more to. Yeah, we're on board now. And I think a lot of the sonics on this song, just they really say Prince.

But Kiss, the 1986 song, was, I think Michael Jackson may have been slightly inspired by it, because it, too, was a blues. And so there's all of a sudden this resurgence of bringing back some references and bluesy tracks. the song continues and then it goes through a 12 bar blues progression, right? So there's these references that are happening and so she's picking up on both the entire musical history of connecting to those blues sounds. I think the much more obvious things are going to be a lot of the sonic elements. So I'm curious, what are some of the sonic elements that you're hearing that are like,

okay, there is some prints in there. Well, I mean, definitely the guitar. Yeah. The guitar is just like the giveaway. I mean, who knows, that might actually be prints on guitar. You never know. Like, honestly, you know, so that was like the biggest thing. but I also be on the track

like vocally she does a lot of like the like we just heard So here's the make me feel funk guitars You got me right here in your jeans Like you're so good And here I mean this is not just like Kiss This is just like Prince funk guitars

But here we go kiss funk guitar Yeah It's amazing If it's not Prince It's someone playing Exactly like him. Exactly like him. Yeah.

And then also there's something in that bass. What does that bass sound? It's not the bass, but it's like the... Yeah, so that's... That's a bass with a... You suddenly cut off all of the high frequency, so... Boll... Okay, so it is base.

Yeah. Okay. And I think it's interesting. The kiss actually doesn't really have any bass in it, but the sparseness of that bass track, I think actually maps really well to the sparseness of the electronic drum kit in the sense that he's playing.

and kiss. Right. It's literally the same groove. Because the bass is like, do-wop, and then the... And then he does it with that and she does it with that

w-da-da-da-da-da. But it is the same exact feel. It's the same groove, man. What's so crazy to me about both of them is like how deep of a groove it is while having so little going on in a way.

Because like, you're right, Charlie, it is sparse. And yet, as soon as either of these songs come on, I'm just like bopping so hard, I feel like I'm going to break my neck. Yeah. There's so many other references here. I mean, a lot of people have gone online and broken down every image in the Make Me Feel music video.

In that video, there's an really gorgeous Janelle wearing this veil. Right. You've seen it, right? And in the video to kiss, one of the dancers is wearing basically a very similar veil. So there's all sorts of moments of homage. And that's what I'm saying, where she's dropping breadcrumbs in every single part. It's all brilliant. I mean, it's like a very, like, well-deserved passing of a torch, too.

Oh, my gosh, yeah. She's incredible, and I think that she has everything that it takes to keep the legacy alive, you know, especially being a black woman, too, which I think was really important to Prince. And when I saw that, I was like, ah, let's go. Like, keep it going. Keep it alive, because there's a lot that's dying around us. And Janelle in this song, like, as on the nose as it is. is so important, you know, to Princess Legacy or to like the legacy of music and good music and the blues, like you're saying, like nobody, nobody plays the blues. Nobody listens to the blues anymore, you know? And then obviously also the cultural side and being someone who makes non-sexual duality permissive.

Right. And that's such a big part of Prince's androgynous, just unbelievably attractive to anyone's sort of quality. And she's making a similar sort of statement in part of the song. That's really true. than kiss, yeah, because kiss is like, Kiss is a very adorable song. This is one of my favorite lines right here.

He goes on to say, like, don't flirt too hard. Like, you just got to be yourself. He's like, don't do too much. Don't be extra about it. Just like, be yourself, you're already sexy. Talk dirty to me, though. So was Prince the original king of ASMR? Because that was pretty, that got me.

Oh, did that get you going? Both eyebrows going up right now. Not even manually this time. What do they do to the mic to get that good whisper? Is a lot of compression or is it, what do they do? They boost something. Oh, well, yeah, they probably boosts a lot of the high end, I would imagine. So you can just get right in there.

Kind of like, you know how Selena Gomez had that? Can't keep my hands on my way? Yeah, we covered that. Are you guys did? Oh, it's such a good song. But like that effect. Maybe Prince did originate that. Yep.

Just getting on that mic and just. It's that close mic. Getting real close, yeah. Quietly and really sexy. And it's that proximity effect by getting really on that mic. You get all the deeper tonal qualities that you can't hear. It's the yin-yang twins effect. That's what I like to call the ying-yang twins.

You guys got to do the whisper song. Oh, my gosh. Nothing was the same after that. You obviously just know all these references and have so much to offer here. But I thought it would be appropriate to get to hear a little bit about your music. Oh, yeah. What I wanted to do was listen to a bit of your song, Truth Hurts. Great.

Yeah. I can't get enough of it, baby. But I just first want to say that, I said on the top of the show, your music has really connected with our listeners. Your song, Good As Hell, came in as a recommendation through one of our panelists, Andrea Warner, who is just a really fantastic writer. And we did a piece called All About Those Baseline Assumptions about Feminism and Pop. And we brought in some great feminist scholars to sort of look at the way in which

feminism is represented in popular music. And that track was sort of like the kicker, climax end of the piece where Andrew was like, this is an awesome example of a modern feminist anthem. And so that became a real favorite of ours and the entire show. Shout out to Andrew. Yeah. She's awesome.

And then I tuned into your South by Southwest performance that NPR taped last year. And dang. Yeah. Dang is right, guys. Dang. You are powerful. You've got a message. Double dang.

Your music is fun. Yeah. I really love the fun that you bring. Easy on the ears. Yeah. You know what I mean? Just like, you know, I'm needing some things which just are exciting and inspiring. I really appreciate that.

This song is so funny. Can you tell us a little bit about what the song is for you? That song is like a literal afternoon. And to be honest, this was last summer. And I was like, man, so done with my album that hasn't come out yet. I'm like, I'm done. Wow, I really, you know. And so I was going in with Ricky Reed, who is the producer on the song.

And we were like, we can either finish some things, talk about the album, or we can make something new today. And I was in such a bad mood. I was so angry over this person that I, you know, allowed to get to me. And I just started, like, venting. And I was like, you know, like, I don't understand why. Like, da-da-da-da-da-da. I had to go to my friend's salon and get my hair done to. And every line in this song, it was coming out of my mouth.

And as this was coming out of my mouth, Ricky was writing it down, I guess. But I was like laying on his couch, like, therapist style. Yeah. Yelling at the world. And when I was done, he was like, you know, I just want you to hear all the things you just said. We should like make a song. And I was like, okay. And it was just so easy.

Yeah. It was so easy. There are two lines that really stood out to me. Obviously, right from the top. why men great until they got to be great. Oh, yeah. Boom. I know.

Beautiful economy of words there. Thank you. That didn't happen in the studio. That happened when I had, me and my girls were on tour and we all had like a full bottle of wine to ourselves for some odd reason. And we were all like guzzling them

and each girl was in a corner with another girl like crying about either like because we love each other so much or everyone's having a moment. My moment and my, my dancer just happened to be that moment. And I remember we were just like, Why are me crazy? And I remember, like, she was like, yo, write that down. Yeah.

And I texted it to Ricky. And I was like, we're going to use this in the future. But, you know, it's not about men. Like, it's not about you. It's not about you. It's about like, I know, but like it's. It's good to hear. It's about like the idea of men always getting the highest seat of power.

Absolutely. And always kind of like failing us. I think we're witnessing a lot of that in the world. Right. And that's the issue. It's like you only give men the highest seat. Why don't you give it to everybody and see what everyone can do with it? And then on a very personal level, it's like, yeah. As like you are, the idea of you is incredible.

And then when I actually apply you to my life, I'm just kind of disappointed and let down constantly. Why aren't you showing up? Why don't you show up, bro? I feel like that line could go in so many different directions. And one of my favorite lines you respond to it with is, I put the sing and single, ain't worried about a ring on my finger. Yeah.

Which is also, I mean, what a fond line. Because you could flip the script. It's like, I don't need you. Yeah. That was like an Instagram caption that I put on my picture once. I was like, it's okay, guys. I'll be okay because I put the singing single. I am like the quintessential single girl.

I'm like such a single girl and I'm going through all the single girl motions. And I think that's why people, you know, no matter what, they're going through no matter what their gender as a sexuality is like kind of connect to that because it's all the same you know when you're solo dolo and you're on your own in this world you just have this like really shared experience with other people especially as a millennial you know and they're just like i'm going through the same thing you know so all of my music is kind of like shared experience and well i think it'll be appropriate since this is what's on pop we want to talk about the

music of what's going on here and part of what i love about the melody is it has almost this like schoolyard quality where everybody can sing along to it And so it really invites that participation that you're talking about. Like, people can feel that same quality that you're expressing. Yeah, it's really snotty, isn't it? I'm not really singing and I'm not really rapping. And I'm just kind of like whining. But it invites everybody to do the same with you.

Right. Right. Because everybody feels exasperation. Everybody wants to just scream that at the top of their lungs. And then you end it with the best reference ever. What? The sister Nancy Bam. Whoa!

Oh, that's wild. I didn't even think about that. No way. Yeah, so let's listen to the end of your track for just a second. Yeah. And then here's the sister Nancy. Oh, what? Yo, that's genius.

It's such a frequent reference within R&B and hip-hop. It's a texture that people will just boom. Interesting. I mean, that was like a seat filler for lyrics. No way. And then we couldn't really think of anything. I remember we were listening to the chorus and truth hurts didn't exist yet. It was just the chorus.

Why are men great till I got to be great? And then I was like, who, truth hurts, dog. And then Ricky's like, that's incredible. Go put that in there. Truth hurts. And then we wanted to have one more line. Yeah. And we just put in bum.

I was like bum bum bum, bum, be dumb, be dumb dumb, day. And then after like sitting, after like messing around with the beat, he messed around with the beat. And I just sat and reflected. I was like, yo, that goes. Oh, it just like. closes things out with this beautiful finality and you don't have to say anything. Yeah. I'm good. I'm just going to go on and...

Yeah, because now live when I do it, I'm just like... It's kind of like the arms out emoji. That's like, shoulder shrug. Kanye shrug. It's like, hey, you bum? Wow, that's so nice that Sister Nancy reference. I'm living for that. You guys are so smart. The sister Nancy track is... It's also kind of like,

Hey, Lottie Lottie. It's like one of those things. Talk about that musical ether. Like, it wasn't even intentional. It's out there because you've heard it. Like, Kanye's done that track. Like, so many other people have used that. What a beautiful thing. So cool. And just within the whole thing, you know, I love that you're using this really sort of funny toy piano effect with a heavy trap beat. And I feel like you do a really great job of lyrically representing both of those qualities.

Of it's like, it's a banger. It's super fun. And it's also lighthearted at the same time. Thanks. I thought that piano was so weird when he first. Because it was just the piano. And I was like, yeah. yo, we're not going to make a song on this wonky piano,

but he just has these weird sounds, and that was one of them. And I love it now, but when I first heard it, it turned me off because it's so weird, right? But you put that trap beat on, and it's like, hey, let's go. I was there for, like, the creation of the song. Like, I love being there for, like, the egg and the embryo and the baby of the beat. Like, I feel like my energy's in there, too, when that's happening.

Because if he's playing with sounds, I go, hey, that's me. too. So, like, I feel really connected to truth hurts because I was there from, you know, conception. That's a fun part of modern production. I love when the vocal production ends up back into the track, right? That it's not sort of just like beat, done, throw some vocals on top. Yes. You've got those ad lib lines. And then all of a sudden, that's in some ways what makes that track because all of a sudden the bum, bum, be dumb. Yeah. Like, just perfectly closes that verse.

Yeah. It's an awesome refrain. And he mirrors it in the drumming. Oh, he does. He does afterwards. He put that boom, boom. That was a later thing. Wow. So there's this back and forth that's going on between vocalists and producer. Y'all ever do this with other artists? This is so fun. Because we don't be thinking about this.

Like, when I make music, I am a music major. So I've studied music theory. I'm a music nerd. I analyze other things. But when I'm making mine, it's so subconscious. Totally. It's freestyle mostly now. And so to hear it come back.

in this way is like so exciting. People will sometimes ask us this. I actually got another message recently that was like, okay, seriously, are you guys just making this stuff up? And I think of the music you make. You're like an Olympic athlete. You have trained yourself to know how to make music.

And then when you do it, you have to do it without any conscious effort. Right. Right. It's that stream of creativity. You're just like tapping into, as soon as you get into the logical brain, all this nonsense that I'm bringing here today,

you lose it. It gets hard. It gets really hard. Didn't Bob Dylan say that? He was like, music shouldn't be hard. music should be easy to make. Someone told me he said that.

And I was like, I was like, yeah, man. It's frustrating, but it's like also, you know, the type of artist he is. Absolutely. Yeah, I can just pen a 17 page long song in 10 minutes. Yeah. He's kind of crazy. You're incredibly multi-talented. You are also the host of a hit podcast on Spotify.

I'm the host of a podcast on Spotify called Good As Hell. You're single. And your podcast. And it's my song, look, I'm smart too. You know, I said, I cross-promotion. So this is a Spotify Studios and Refinery 29 collaboration. And you are talking to the iconic queens of music. You interviewed people like Lil Kim, Kaylani, Trina, De Brat,

really some of the most amazing people. Yeah. On the show, you speak with women who you say, pave the way for not just hip-hop, but mainstream culture and feminism, and never get to tell their stories. Right. Well, you tell us a little bit about, you say you have to defend your heroes for not getting credit for innovation and influence.

What inspired you to take on this show? So they came to me. I've always kind of had the idea of telling the quote-unquote female rapper story. But you know what's so annoying is you have these two separate things happening. You have the worst question in the world. What's it like to be a female rapper in the industry? Isn't it so hard? It's actually Raptor.

I'm just kidding. But like, yeah, it's like so hard. I'm like you're perpetuating that it's hard to be a woman in rap. Then on the way other side, you're almost being bombarded in interviews and by the media. And so you see a lot of women who rap with big walls up and are really defensive. And a lot of times I'm uncomfortable in interviews. So I saw both of those. And I was like, yo, what's Queen Latifah story?

All I know is that she's Queen Latifah. But if you think about like Jay-Z or if you think about Nas, like you always hear the story of the hustle. you know and I'm like that's really cool like I know a lot of details about their lives I don't know a lot of details about little Kim's life except for the tragic parts or like the parts that they the negative parts that they want or the big e small's part stuff that ends up on TMZ the you know not the real story right and I felt like maybe that's not as exciting to the media but it also perpetuates this idea that like black women and hip hop are tragic or are too tough or are competitive and that's not the case.

What I found out talking to these women is that there is and was so much unity in the rap community with women especially. They would have sleepovers. They would hang out. They would write songs. Like Missy would just have them all come over and just like party together.

They were like sisters. They would tell me stories about Eve and left eye and like Aaliyah and how they would just all like kick it. And I'm like, this is so cool. And I wish that we knew that this was going on And then because now I want, there's so many women in the industry coming up now, and that was so nice to talk to Kaylani and like Aquafina. Yeah.

And I feel like if we only had that blueprint or we had knowledge of that, we could use that in the future to create more unity. And ladies' night came from that, you know? Like only good music comes from women being in agreement with each other. And so it's my little way of trying to bring unity in the hip-hop community and to also step back and like open up this this dark hallway that we don't have any clue we're afraid of we're like what's the 90s rap for women 90s rap for black women i'm not going to look down that hallway but no like look down that hallway take a walk down the archives and hopefully in the future young girls can listen to this and be like wow like little kim is so innovative and trina is so innovative that is such a beautiful project i also love that you had this question of what's their real story? And you're like,

I'm just gonna go find out. What an awesome thing to get to do. I really particularly loved your interview with Kaylani. Kailani is one of my absolute favorite artists right now. As she should be. And you spoke specifically about that. And we were sort of alluding it to it in your music as well. It's the positivity of music,

the fun that can exist within it. Could you speak a little bit about some of the things that came out in that interview and why the fun in that music is important to you? In my music or in... This is a two-part question, huh? Oh, you never were supposed to ask two-part questions. No, no, no.

No, it's okay. No, with Kaylani, we have so much fun because she and I, we're similar in, like, the way that we respect music. We're both tourists, but, like, even the way we write music. And I think that, like, my life was way different than hers, though. She had to come from this really negative place in her life. She had a lot that happened to her when she was younger that wasn't tight. I don't have a better word for it. She went through a lot. And so, like, you can hear a lot of strife in her music and a lot. But I think that you get to a point in your artist's, that you want to manifest positivity for yourself and you want to spread positivity. I feel like as an artist, the more that you sing about the negativity in life, the more your life starts to reflect that. I don't know how many artists you've talked to, but there are so many self-fulfilling prophecies that happen

and good and bad, you know? Like, I've said things like, I'm talking about being in Scotland in a rap, and then I'm looking up and I'm like, well, I'm playing in Scotland. or like, you know, I talk about Macaulay Cawkin, and then I go on tour with Macaulay Cawkeland, and he's in my music video. And like, there's just like so many, you know what I mean?

There's like levels to it. But then there's also on the other side, if you're perpetuating, I'm so sad today, I'm just going to drink today. I'm so depressed today. You're going to kind of feel that. And I think that Kalani just got to a point in her life where she's like, I don't want to perpetuate that or I don't need that around me. And she's really strong.

She's like one of the strongest people I've ever been around to see. see what she's gone through and to see how she's getting through it. But positivity is important because I think there's a lot of different kinds of music that need to exist. Yeah. Yeah. I think the weekend should exist as much as, you know, as good as hell. Thank you. Let me talk about myself. I need, the weekend needs to exist just like I need to exist because life is about a balance and art is about the balance of darkness and light quite literally sometimes. And I tried to straddle a line I wanted to be like Siza. I wanted to be so cool and like moody and just like

and that music just doesn't sound authentic coming from me. And I remember bringing it all the way back to Prince. He had really come to a place where it was just all his music was super positive. All of his music was super clean. All of his music was like about uplifting women, uplifting black women. And I remember being like really, really impressed and shocked by that.

And when he passed away or when he, or when he transitioned, I remember thinking I'm not going to try to be this sad girl anymore. Like, what's the point of like fighting? Because people were actually being like, why she's so happy?

Like she's so, people were hating on me. Yes. I know, but like people would hate on that. Y'all would not believe. They're like, she's too friendly. Why is she so happy? Like, ugh. And so I would try to have like,

I would try to have like some type of like darkness or shade to me. But after that, I kind of completely dedicated my life to positive music. It's worked for me ever since I decided to do that. Like, it's my truth. Everyone has their truth.

If the weekend want to be sad, let him sing the sad songs. That's his truth. You know, if Sizzle wants to be, you know, the angst and the longing that she exudes, like, let her live that. That's her truth. And, you know, I don't think if you're not, like, as positive and as happy, go lucky as I am, you don't have to do this. But I'm choosing to do it. And I hope that people really just respect that. And, you know, live your life.

Live your life in the balance. Don't stay in the darkness, don't stay in the light. Your music does a beautiful job of that because it's so often real. Like the track, Truth Harts, right? There's some pain in there. Yo, I was so sad. And you move right through it. I was so sad.

And like, that's what happens when I'm sad, you guys. Like, good as hell. I say, he don't love you anymore in a song. And it's like the happiest song in the world. It's the happiest song. I can't fight it. Please don't. So people can experience this life.

coming up real soon. You are going on a huge, I think over 20 show tour throughout North America with Heim. You are calling it the sister, sister, sister, sister tour. Well, I'm calling it the sister, sister, sister. St. Oh, right now. What our listeners are going to experience on this upcoming tour? Well, first off, Hime is just so cool. Like, they're the sweetest girls and they're like BA musicians. I was going to cuss. But they're great musicians. And I think it's going to be really cool to see me, the big girls, DJ Sophia Erez, and then to see the sisters, like, getting down on stage. Like, we all rock out in our own ways.

My show, I originated in indie rock, and then I evolved into indie hip hop, and now I'm, you know, whatever I am now. But like... A malange of amazing music. Yeah, but like the... You said I'm a launch? I did. Ooh, is that like Solange's sister? But look, I like...

So we rock out on... stage. So you're going to see like a really really dope show. You're going to see high energy. You're going to see sweat. And then you're going to see tons of hair. Just tons of hair. I'm so excited. Like we thrive live. That's my bread and butter.

And tickets are selling out. We're doing two nights at Radio City Music Hall. That's awesome. And I think they both sold out. Almost. So buy your tickets, New York for the second night. And people can find tickets on Lizzoomusic.com. And they can find all sorts of great tracks. We will look sure to post it in the show.

You will hear truth hurts and good as hell. Spoiler alert. Well, this has been the most fun show I've ever recorded, and I don't know about you, Nate. Y'all just saying that. We're having a really good time. Thank you so much for joining us. Thank you, I'm just jealous. I'm not there with you.

Oh, I'll see you later. I'll see you in New York. Okay. As soon as we hang up, I'm getting my tickets. Y'allis, guys. Get them. They're going quick. Switched on Pop was produced by me, Charlie Harding, and my buddy, Professor Nate

Sloan. Thank you, Lizzo. You can find Lizzo's music and her podcast, Good As Hell, on Spotify. You can get tickets to her tour at Lizzoomusic.com. You definitely want to go catch her and the sister, sister, sister, sister, tour. It's going to be awesome. I, no, I tried. I'm really sorry. Charles. Slightly awkward ending there, but I had to cut the original credits and couldn't think of a better way to do it. Oh, that was a fun episode. So many congratulations to Lizzo in the year she's having and her well-earned success. We're so honored that she joined us. And Lizzo, you're welcome back anytime.

Our engineer and editor is Brandon McFarlane. Megan Lubin is production fellow. Bridget Armstrong is our producer, Nashat Kerwa. And Liz Nelson, our executive producers. We're proudly part of the Vox Media Network. And you can find our show anywhere that podcasts live. we come out every Tuesday and our website is switched on pop.com. We'll be back in another week with a hot new episode and until then, thanks for listening.