Switched on Pop - Is there a Disney curse?: Demi, Selena, and Miley

Episode Date: November 18, 2025

This year, there were a few records that delivered less-than-optimal returns on either the Hot 100 or the Billboard 200 – and they all came from former Disney pop stars.  Demi Lovato’s latest album peaked at number nine on the Billboard 200, where it spent one week and then fell off; Selena Gomez’s record with Benny Blanco peaked at number 2 on the Billboard 200, but no songs cracked the top 40; and Miley Cyrus’s album is her shortest charting project to date. On this episode of Switched On Pop, Nate and Reanna try to get to the bottom of the so-called “Disney curse,” and why these artists are unable to recapture their past commercial success. Songs discussed: Demi Lovato – Here All Night Selena Gomez, benny blanco – Sunset Blvd Miley Cyrus – End of the World Demi Lovato – Sorry Not Sorry Demi Lovato – Heart Attack Demi Lovato – Skin of my Teeth Demi Lovato – Fast Kesha – JOYRIDE. Demi Lovato – Frequency Demi Lovato – Kiss Todd Terry, Martha Wash – Keep On Jumpin' Demi Lovato – Sorry To Myself Selena Gomez, A$AP Rocky – Good For You Kygo, Selena Gomez – It Ain't Me Selena Gomez, Marshmallo – Wolves Selena Gomez, benny blanco, Gracie Abrams – Call Me When You Break Up benny blanco, Selena Gomez, J Balvin, Tainy – I Can't Get Enough J Balvin, Willy William – Mi Gente Selena Gomez, benny blanco – Bluest Flame Selena Gomez, benny blanco, The Marías – Ojos Tristes Miley Cyrus, Big Sean – Love Money Party Miley Cyrus – Flowers Miley Cyrus – Easy Lover Miley Cyrus, Naomi Campbell – Every Girl You've Ever Loved Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

If you're tired of endless scrolling to figure out where to eat, same. I'm Stephanie Wu, editor-in-chief of Eater. We've just launched the new-ish and way better Eater app. It has all the restaurants we love, gives you personalized picks wherever you are, and serves up smarter search results just for you. You can find my list of the best places for martinis and fries in New York City. And save your favorite spots, share lists, follow editors, and book right in the app. Download the eater app at eaterapp.com.

It's free for iOS users. Welcome to Switchdown Pop. I am producer Rianna Cruz. And I'm musicologist Nate Sloan. Rihanna, this is the second week in a row that you and I are holding it down here at Switchdown Pop HQ. Yeah, burning the midnight oil over here. While our colleague songwriter Charlie Harding gallivance around Norway supposedly leading workshops for students there. in songwriting and music criticism, but I think really we know he's just hanging out in saunas and

sipping Norse vodka. I mean, he deserves it, but you and I, Nate, are here to hold it down. Yes, because the pop does not stop. And, Rihanna, what's on tap for us today? Well, Nay, I think you know that here on the show, we tend to wax poetically on the more commercially successful end of the pop spectrum. Yeah, we chase the hits, absolutely. You know, often we look at why a song hit number one, why an artist is successful.

But today, Charlie's not here. So I have the potential to turn the show upside down, to flip the script here. And what I'd like to do is not talk about the top of the pop charts, but rather some of this year's less successful pop efforts. I'm here for it. When the Charlie's away, the mice play. Let's do it. In 2025, there were a couple of records.

that delivered less than optimal returns. Specifically, I'm thinking of Demi Lovato and her latest album, It's Not That Deep. I'm thinking of Selena Gomez's record with Benny Blanco, the album I Said I Love You First. And as previously talked about on the show, Miley Cyrus's record, Something Beautiful. So I think it's saved to say, Nate, that it's not,

really a great time to be a former Disney pop star. Yeah, that's the through line connecting all of these artists, former child stars, part of the Disney Machine, I guess, Disney Channel alumni. Yeah. I need to say this right at the outset of the episode. I've never seen a episode of anything on the Disney Channel ever. Wow. I just missed that. I don't know if it's my, you know, millennial age or just my tendencies, but I nevertheless, I'm obviously aware that these stars all went. And through the Disney pipeline, and I have some idea of what that means, the pressures that entails the fame and the scrutiny, the toll on one's mental health. But yeah, these are huge artists. I mean, these are artists you can refer to just by their first names, Demi,

Selena, Miley. Like, these are legit, top-of-the-line pop stars. So the fact that all three of them weren't able to find huge success with their latest releases, that's kind of interesting. Demi's album peaked at number nine on the Billboard 200, spent one week there and then fell off. Selena's record peaked at number two on the Billboard 200, but no songs from it cracked the top 40, which for her is a pretty big deal. And Miley's album is her shortest charting project to date. It spent only two weeks on the Billboard 200. So I think overall there's something a little weird afoot with these Disney girls.

And with new projects from other former Disney pop stars Hillary Duff and Olivia Rodrigo on the way, I want to figure out why these artists are struggling. Why are these albums not connecting with people? And does it have anything to do with their Disney pedigree? Or is that just a coincidence? I think this is a fascinating topic. I am wondering, how do we proceed? Like, how do we make something vaguely scientific out of this kind of notion?

that we have about these artists. Well, here's what I want to do with each of these artists. I want to listen to an old classic of theirs, one or two of their most streamed songs, and see why these artists are special, right? Why they've stood the test of time. And then I want to listen to each of their 2025 releases to kind of peek under the hood here and dissect what's going on, why they're not landing. Sounds like a plan, Rihanna.

Which artist should we start with? Demi Lovato. She released her album. It's not that deep. last month. And when I think of quintessential, Demi Lovato, one of the first singles that comes to mind is her highest charting song on the Hot 100, Sorry Not Sorry. It's basic pop, but it feels authentic. It's basic pop, but it feels authentic. When Demi sings, I believe her, especially on parts like this in the pre-chorus where there's a little bit of cursing.

It feels authentically edgy, feels very much like her. But I think above all else, what makes Demi special is that voice. It's loud. It's belty. She's kind of yelling and is very much in your face, but that's part of her charm. I remember when we covered this song on the pod back in 2017 and later spoke to its producer, Oak Felder, about the track as well. you can find both those episodes somewhere deep in the Switch on Pop archives. And yeah, that was a profound moment for me because I think up until then I probably had some biases against Demi being part of this Disney pipeline, maybe thinking she was kind of a manufactured industry plant type of star.

And then realizing, no, this is an artist with an incredible voice. Later, I would hear her sing in Joe Biden's virtual inauguration, Bill Withers' lovely day. By that point, I was like, yeah, Denley's going to crush this, and she did. She is an amazing vocalist, and I think you're right. The song was successful not only because of its catchy production, its deep 808 basses, but because it's a showcase for what Demi Lovato can do with her voice. When she sings, she doesn't hold back. Her voice is expressive and that powerful vocal in tandem with her authenticity is Demi's strong suit.

And also she has a gift for delivering powerful choruses. And the defiant lyrics of this song just seemed so in her wheelhouse. Yeah. I'm not like totally up on my Demi Levato chronology, but I seem to recall this was also a moment in her career where she was starting to make a comeback after dealing with. a lot of substance abuse and this song kind of packed a double punch because it represented this moment of her reclaiming her narrative and then the song itself slapped as well. I agree, but I want to zero in on her voice and her tremendous vocal dexterity. This is kind of her calling card, right?

Pretty much all of her massive hits feature her belting in some capacity. I think of 2013's heart attack. That song, I hear it, boom, I'm back at the water park. Like, I'm there. I'm smelling the chlorine. I'm a teenager. You know, life is hard, but I love Demi Lovato. Like, that's where I get transported.

I mean, there's a feeling of release that you experienced when you hear someone hitting notes in that range with that power. Yeah. So at this point in Demi's career, we're almost 10 years removed from Sorry Not Sorry. At this point, that song almost feels like an outlier in her career. DemiSense has changed her image a couple of times. She did a hard pivot from this R&B Poppy hybrid to hardcore and metal. A couple years back, she put out a cover album, rockifying all of her old hits. And I remember we covered her last original record titled Holy FVCK in 2022 when it came out. And that album had singles. like the song, Skin of My Teeth. Demi leaves rehab again. When is this shit gonna end? The voice in my head.

It kind of felt like that just might be the sound of Demi Lovato from here on out. Yeah, that was the last tip that she was on. And I remember speaking about this on the episode that we did, that this era felt very authentic. I was like, this is Demi's endpoint. Like, this is what her music has always meant to sound like. So I was surprised when I pressed play on her new record, it's not that deep, and was met with a sound that was less fit for a mosh pit and more for the club.

Here's the first single titled Fast. Yes, we have traded the distorted guitars and punk drums for bass synths and trap hats. And a sound more reminiscent of, I don't know, Charlie XX than Ozzy Osbourne. Yeah, we got an electronic house-ish track, not rock by any means. But I don't know. I think it sounds great. I'll be the first to say that I like this song. I enjoyed it when I first heard it.

But it didn't even make it to the Hot 100. This is Demi's lead single. And it peaked at 15 on the bubbling under chart. The fact that this song, one of the kids, catchy as pop songs that I've heard all year isn't commercially successful. It was the song that prompted this large question in my head of what is going on because in a right and just world, this would be a number one billboard hit for three weeks, you know? Like it has that power and that drive to it. So this was the start of your existential crisis. Exactly. Other songs on the

album sound similar to fast. I'm thinking of the track frequency. You like that song, Nate. I see it on your face. I really like that song. Does this happen to be a production by Zone? Z-H-O-N-E? Wow. You would be correct.

You're right on the money there. I feel like we've been hearing this producer more and more. I maybe encountered him initially on Keshe's track Joyride. Oh, that's a heater. Yep. And I feel like Zona has become one of those producers with this very identifiable sound, very kind of hyper, a little bit frenetic. There's always some weird sound that doesn't quite belong. And yet it's also still really catchy.

So to me, this would be a signal that these songs are going to see a lot of success because he's like one of the most in-demand producers right now. And yet, as you're telling me, this song is not getting the resonance, maybe, that she and her team would have. expected. Yeah, I mean, it's catchy. It's a little inventive, right, very of the moment. So why is this album not connecting with people? Honestly, I think it comes down to why sorry not sorry is significant. Demi's voice is what makes her music special. And the songs on It's Not That Deep are not vocal showcases. So you could have the catchiest melody, the most innovative production. But if we're not hearing the calling card of Demi Lovato, her virtuosic voice, maybe these songs aren't going to land. Yeah, it's not that deep. Maybe it is that deep as we're talking about it. But it's a dance pop album with

songs for people to dance to. You know, the vocals take a back seat. They're not driving the boat here. And I think that diminishes what makes her music special to me. I love her voice and I want to hear it do its thing. but when you strip away its power, you're left with songs like Kiss, which are great to take, you know, Jello shots to in WeHo, but they're not as uniquely Demi. You see what I mean, though? Yeah, once again, I absolutely love this track. It's fun. It's catchy.

It doesn't take itself too seriously. And yet it kind of feels like it could be performed by anyone. Exactly. It builds and builds. and we've come to expect this sweeping chorus from Demi, something to really blow us back. But instead, the song just deflates and it kind of collapses into itself, which is frustrating to me because I think there's a way to do dance music while also being vocal forward. I think of classic house music, which is like reliant on strong, powerful diva vocals. Like something like Martha Wash on the Todd Terry track, Keep on Jumping.

I know it's possible. So the fact that Demi's songs are not as vocally powered is disappointing to me. You know, I feel the exception might be the very first track you played us at the top of the episode. Can you remind me what that's called? Ah, here all night. Can we spend the chorus of that again? There are some moments that feel very classic Demi in this chorus. Yeah.

Particularly the word right at the end of begging for the bass till it's hitting me right. She puts a little vibrato on that word right. Yeah. That's very reminiscent of the way she sang, Baby, I'm sorry, back in 2017. It's just like a little signal of the person behind the song, the individual with the voice and the talent, and that vibrato just like kind of snapped you into her identity as a vocalist,

even though such a small moment. No, I agree. I was going to bring up here all night because I want to, end all of these album dissections on a positive note. And I want to highlight something that each of these albums are doing well, something worthwhile. And I was going to bring up the song here all night because I think the melodies on that song are really great. I love her voice. I think it shines in the chorus. It's the closest thing we have to a demi hit that we know and love. And it's a little sublime to me. Like lowercase sublime or uppercase sublime? Lowercase sublime. I would love to see her do

Skah hybrid, but, you know, maybe we're not there yet. Yeah, I agree. Based on, you know, only the trio of tracks that we've listened to, that this album is not bad by any means. We just want more. More Demi. More of that direct, authentic voice that for us really marks her as a unique voice in the pop landscape. Yeah, and even though the songs might not sound authentic, I want to point out the lyrics of this record that I think have a message of self-love and forgiveness that feels very much of Demi Lovato at this moment in her life. Though the sound doesn't connect with me, Demi is happy.

And I'm happy to hear that on tracks like, sorry to myself, a sweet and loving message. A beautiful message there, you know, she's sorry to herself, as she says for lying in the mirror and telling her she doesn't love herself. I think that's a very sweet message. I agree. And I feel like this brings us back. to the Disney of it all. I mean, Demi and all of these artists

were going to talk about, I feel like they're unpacking a lot of trauma from their childhood. Yeah. And even on a really sort of bright and kind of victorious-sounding album, there's this song that reminds us that all of that stuff she went through.

It's still present. She's still dealing with it. You don't escape that Disney experience without some scars. And I'm curious if this is going to show up in Selena's work as well. Yeah, I'll take this opportunity to move on to Demi's co-star in the Disney Channel original movie Princess Protection Program, Selena Gomez. I love that flick when I was younger.

Selena is an artist that, quite frankly, is a chart powerhouse. I think a quintessential Selena track is her song with ASAP Rocky off of Revival. the track, good for you. Here I think Selena Gomez shows her strong suit, which is also, like Demi, her voice, but at the complete opposite end of the spectrum. Her voice is hushed, it's muted, it's very breathy, it's sensual, and it gives her songs an intimate quality. We've definitely spoken on the pod before about our admiration for Selena Gomez.

for many of the opposite reasons of Demi Lovato, not someone with a voice that's going to blow you back, I think, as you described Demi Lovato, or a voice that's built for headphones that conveys a lot of emotion and drama that almost verges on speech, someone who can kind of whisper in your ear and make you feel that intimate connection to them,

even if they can't, you know, belt, a high G or something. Like, let's be clear. There's a talent here. There's a skill here. It's just maybe not as apparent as it is with someone like Demi Lovato. I like that audiophile voice. ASMR pop with a little bit of cursive singing in here as well.

A little bit of indie girl voice. Goet for you. This is Selena Gomez's appeal. This is the main thing that makes her special. But something that she also does that I don't think is talked about as much is her ability to be an effective, featured artist. Her voice is malleable enough to serve as a perfect foil to an electronic EDM production. I don't think it's a coincidence that some of her most streamed tracks on Spotify are her features on songs by DJs.

Like, Kygo's track, It Ain't Me. Her feature on Marshmallow's song, Wolves, is similar. She could be a chameleon in that way. So it almost feels kismet to me for her to release a collaboration album. And it's natural for it to be with her now husband, accomplished producer, Benny Blanco. Clearly, she thrives in collaboration. My issue with the album, I said I love you first, is when I was listening to it, I kind of got style whiplash. The album is a little bit all over the place.

The album has classic Selena Gomez tracks, like the song, Call me when you break up. Call me when you. By all accounts, nice and inoffensive indie pop. Yes. I'm hearing lyrical echoes of Robbins call your girlfriend. Maybe, you know, this idea of like, yeah, you're in a relationship now, but when it ends, you know, I'll be here.

But at the same time, yeah, it doesn't feel really defined in a way that Demi did. Like you were like, oh yeah, I know what this is. This is a track for the club. This is to get down to. This is to move your body to. This is to get that release. This is like a little more opaque in terms of what it's trying to target or something. But yeah, it's certainly catchy and pleasant to listen to.

The album writ large occupies a similar space, but it is like genre confused a little bit. There's a Latin pop song on here featuring Jay Balvin, produced in part by Tiny, who's One of the biggest Latin producers, the song called I Can't Get Enough. In here, we have a vocal chop that reminds me of her Kaigo song, things of that nature that align. Yeah, to me, the melody of that vocal chop seems kind of a reference to the iconic reggae tone track, Mihente. And there's nothing wrong with that. But yeah, I think I hear what you're saying. Dang, Reanne. It feels like they're trying on all these different masks and seeing what works and

they each result in a successful song, but what does it all add up to? There's more of these masks, some more successful than others. There's actually a song on this album written by Charlie XX, and that's the track, Bluest Flame, which genuinely sounds like it could be a B-side off of Brat. Wait, that's Selena Gomez. Did she have a British accent? What is happening? This is so bizarre.

Yeah. Salina's Charlie cosplay or something. Yeah. And it's interesting to me because I feel like Selena Gomez can thrive in whatever avenue she chooses because her voice is, as I said, malleable. But the productions kind of swallow her up. She feels devoid of identity on these songs.

You know, the song, Blue's Flame, it doesn't sound like her. Yeah. And I think there's a spectrum in her music, generally. right? On one end, you have vocal chameleon, able to slot in whatever format, a voice that a DJ could play around with, and there's a sense of gravity to it. You know, on the other hand, you have a blank slate where there's too much going on in the production and the voice gets drowned out. And as a result, the song feels confused. I think something on I said I Love You First, that's indicative of the larger problem here, is the second most stream. song on the album, the track Ojos Tristas featuring the Marias. Which sounds like a Maria's song. Well, exactly.

Straight up. It sounds like a Maria's song featuring Stelina Gomez, not the other way around, honestly. That's exactly what I was going to say. There's two things happening in this clip here. The chorus is an interpolation from the song El Mucacho de los Ojos Tristas

by Spanish singer Jeanette. And the voice singing it isn't Selena Gomez. It's Maria Zardoya from the Marias who was doing the Selena Gomez thing, but better. Whispered singing, bilingual influence, but there's a personality to it. And I think it really says something when one of the most popular songs on the album doesn't even have Selena Gomez singing the chorus. So if on the demi album we felt like we were. weren't getting enough of the signature demi vocals. Here it's something different. It's like Selena is getting kind of swallowed up by the genre hopping production that covers this album.

Yeah, but I think, you know, again, trying to give a positive for each of the records, something that I've always enjoyed about Selena Gomez is her willingness to try new sounds. I think of her song like Bad Liar. You know, she's doing like Talking Head Sucing. psycho killer vibes. Oh, I'm trying. I'm trying. I said I love you first. Tries new things.

And I think it's worth a listen on that aspect alone. A song that I find myself coming back to is the song we played at the top of the episode, the track Sunset Boulevard. A fun track. If I was to peg an influence for this one, I might say like Sabrina Carpenter, maybe. It's got that spoken chorus with sexual. innuendos and then this kind of like retro 80s synth hop chorus i don't know it's it's i agree though yeah she should be celebrated for the risks that she's taking on this album even if she's not

going to be chart rewarded for it so we've talked about demi we've talked about selina there's one more disney starlet that we haven't gotten to yet and that's the artist formerly known as hannah montana We know her as Miley Cyrus and we'll get to her after the break. Attention Spotify. Has yeted a new Good Girl Jasmine Absolute of Carolina Herrera. A fragrance intense with character

gourmet and addictive. Imagine a jasmine emvolvente, tofu caramelized and tonka toasted. A combination that seduce from the first instant and she'll beaweller Abagnetic Irresistible. Discoveringlao

and let's involve for its essence. All right. So I think there's something to say about how the two artists that we've previously talked about, Demi and Selena. They've tried new things in their work to varying degrees of success. Now I'd like to talk about the artists that I see as maybe the most versatile of the three.

And that's Miley Cyrus. Her album, Something Beautiful, came out in May. And Nate, you and Charlie talked about the record earlier this year. At that point, there were only two singles out, I believe, something beautiful and end of the world. and my reaction to them was like, we are entering Miley Cyrus's avant-garde era. Weird song forms, opaque, mysterious vocals, guest features from L.A. jazz musicians like Josh Johnson and Nick Hakeem.

For heads like myself, I was geeking out, but I hadn't really followed up to see how the album and its singles actually performed. So maybe I shouldn't. be surprised if these experimental avant-garde songs didn't really find a massive audience. But before we talk about this recent release, I feel like we need to acknowledge the Miley past. Like, what's her biggest song? Is it Flowers? Is it party in the USA? She's had so many hits. I would say it's Flowers. Honestly, I haven't heard Flowers in a second. Listening back, kind of a perfectly crafted pop song.

It doesn't surprise me that it's as successful as it is. It's got this infectious kind of mid-tempo beat. It's got references to both classic disco and the Bruno Mars song, If I Was Your Man. It's got a message of self-empowerment that is endlessly relatable. Yeah, this track has it off. And I think Miley's discography at large also has it all. Something you spoke about in your Something Beautiful episode is Miley's ability to shape shift shift in different eras.

And when I think about her defining music, her defining traits, I kind of come up short other than the fact that she's able to move through different aesthetics with ease. Miley defies convention and the shapeshifting nature of her artistry is what keeps her interesting. Flowers is probably her biggest hit. And I'm not sure any other artist could convincingly put out a song like that. After putting out albums like bangers with songs on them, like Love Money Party, one of my favorites. I feel like Miley ain't up and the music slow down and I should get flurray. Love money party.

Money ain't nothing but money when you get to the money in another but money. Love ain't nothing but love when you love. I feel like Miley was maybe the deepest in the Disney machine. I mean, Hannah Montana, again, never seen an episode, but I'm aware of how huge this show was. and I'm well aware of the toll that it took on her and her family and how she's had to recover from this life of being in the public eye and how her voice was a big part of that. Like rediscovering her voice, rediscovering her sound, rediscovering her country roots, exploring these different genres, like you said, Rihanna. Not without controversy, you know, accusations of cultural appropriation along the way. But yeah, I mean, this is a pretty remarkable story of, like, overcoming and self-actualization.

I feel like that's what she's describing on this album. It's, like, her journey into the light, and that's pretty powerful. Is it a recipe for a commercial success? Perhaps not. And to tell you the truth, Nate, I put something beautiful last out of the three, because the new albums from the other two artists, Demi and Selena, I get that something's off, generally with the music. You know, I could see why things aren't working out for them commercially. With Miley, I gotta say, I do not understand why this album is not connecting with people.

I think these songs are good and interesting and I like them a lot. Something beautiful asks, what if all of Miley's previous eras were contained on a single record? I love that. There's a handful of songs here that have ended up on my best of the year playlist, you know? One that's stuck with me is the track, Easy Lover. Tell me that's not a heater, Nate. Come on. It's a heater. I mean, I remarked on this, I think, when we record our episode about this album, but

Miley is fascinating to me because I think she's like 33 or something. And she sings with the kind of worldly experience of someone twice or age, honestly. And I mean that, like, with no shit. shade whatsoever. But when I listen to her sometimes, I'm like, that's probably someone who's lived a long life, seen a lot of shit is probably like in her mid-50s. And no, she's not, but she's probably lived enough lifetimes to have that voice, that kind of like gravitas and that sort of like worldly affectation. Yeah. I mean, this is a song that like you could give to like Lucinda Williams, you know, Brandy Carlyle type beats. Yes. Yes. There you go.

And it would be delivered probably less effectively than how Miley is doing it. It's a bluesy rock song that suits her gravelly voice. Yeah. I have to say more than what we heard from Demi or Selena, I feel like Miley is having a lot of fun here. I feel like she's like just having a blast. Like that's kind of the vibe I get from this album. Yeah. So it's surprising that it's not connecting with listeners.

I mean, a lot of the same playbook that we heard in Flowers is present in this track. that kind of throwback feel, you know, this message of self-worth, this showcase for her vocals. And yet, I don't know, maybe that's not what people want to hear in 2025. It really confounds me because I think like something Miley is really good at is putting you in a time and place, you know, and I listen to Easy Lover. I get like a desert horse riding fantasy, you know, galloping across the sands. I don't know. I think these songs are a little weird.

They're a little funky. They defy convention a little bit. And another song I like on this album is the track, Every Girl You've Ever Loved. It's a bop. Fun song, Powerhouse Chorus. Indeed. 80 saxophone, guitar riff.

And my favorite part, an incredible post chorus delivered from, of all people in the world, Naomi Campbell. What? You got Naomi Campbell, supermodel extraordinaire. delivering lines, like, she has the perfect scent. She speaks the perfect French. Kind of like

random, but it works for some reason. Like, it's delivered with such a finesse, that it feels natural. I mean, it might not be the most familiar reference for a Gen Z listener, but she's still an icon. So I think it only adds to the track. Yeah, it's a weird song. It's over five minutes long. It has a multi-minute outro that turns into an electro breakdown. And I've come back to it throughout the year. It's really only grown on me. Not terribly salient, but I love hearing the Ork 5 sample from the 1979 Fairlight CMI in that outro, which was actually originally taken from Igor Stravinsky's Firebird Suite and then became one of the defining sounds of the.

80s and 90s, that kind of orchestral, with all the strings and drums all rocking at once. So what I can say about it is that it's a testament to how out there this album is and how unafraid it is to just like throw random references together and sort of surprise you. And yeah, maybe it's a little too weird. And that's my least prerogative, though. Yeah, even though I ultimately don't really understand why people aren't connecting with these songs, I can generate a hypothesis. And I think it really comes down to the fact that it's a little too abstract.

Historically, Miley loves a defined aesthetic. We had the sleazy genre hopping of bangers, the psychedelic poporee of her dead pets record, plastic hearts. That album had a 70s rock edge to it. Something that you could describe in two words, all of these albums have, you know, an aesthetic that's very easily encapsulated. Something Beautiful's aesthetic, I think, comes down to literally just the title, something beautiful. There's a visual album, but nothing super visually compelling. And at no point was the idea of something beautiful, clearly defined. Easy Lover is so much different that every girl you've ever loved.

And there's no defined lane, no defined iconography. You know, it's kind of hopping all over the place. It's a little hard to pin down. I have a somewhat cynical take, not only on Miley, but on all three of these artists, which goes back to the Disney thing. And I wonder if these artists struggle to perform commercially when they mine their happiness rather than their heartache. And if we as a society don't take a sort of perverse pleasure in watching the

downfall of the Disney princess and sort of gawking at their missteps and struggles. And in this weird way for an artist to reach some sort of self-actualization and happiness might mess with their ability to score a chart-topping hit. Again, that's the cynical side of me. I don't know if I actually feel that way. But ultimately, I hope for these artists that they would feel like, well, I'd rather be in a good place mentally and physically. Yeah. And release an album I'm proud of rather than be a wreck with a top 10 hit.

You know? I mean, I have to imagine that's their calculus. That's an interesting take. I didn't think of that at all. But I think it's very true. I have a slightly less cynical take. Good. Yeah.

Well, I'd rather end on a more sanguine note. So. Yeah, I think the reason why these three projects from Demi Salina and Miley aren't doing well is I think maybe ageism could be a factor. Undoubtedly, yeah. These artists have all been around for about two decades now. Yeah. Pop audiences might be tired of these voices. The pop listeners' mind is very fickle.

We're in a TikTok world. There's oversaturation from all of these different artists out there. Maybe there's less need for artists coming down the Disney pipeline. But I think largely from analyzing these records, For me, it comes down to the fact that I think these artists really aren't playing to their strengths. I can understand why all these pop stars are trying new things. You know, their career has been happening for a while at this point. But in all of these cases, we talked about today, there's a specific thing that makes them stand out

that's not being utilized effectively in their work. I think it's Demi's voice. I think it's Selena's personality. And I think it's Miley's imagery, the way she's able to cast. a sound and a genre. And I don't know. I don't want these artists doing the same thing ad nauseum for the rest of their career. I think the point of pop is reinvention. But I think there's a level of reinvention that also incorporates what we love about an artist that keeps them in the public's hearts. It keeps them commercially successful. I have one last note for you, Nate.

And as a foil to this, I present a fellow Disney star that is really successful that does exactly everything that I'm saying. You actually mentioned her earlier in the episode. Sabrina Carpenter. It's Sabrina Carpenter. Yeah. She's on her seventh studio record right now. She's been a workhorse coming out of the Disney machine. Wow. And I think over the past few years, she has just reached her maximum potential. The core reason of that is that she knows her strengths and she plays to them well. She knows she's silly. She utilizes her voice. And she could do the pinup girl aesthetic thing, really effectively. So all that being said, I think there's hope for these artists, these older Disney artists.

There's potential here for success. And as someone who was raised on Hannah Montana, who was raised on Wizards of Waverly Place, on Sunny with a chance, I would love to see them continue to thrive. I like that you threw Sabrina Carpenter in at the end there, Rihanna. And I feel like we could easily widen this discussion to even more Disney alumni, you know? Like, we're the Jonas Brothers at these days. So true. Where are. Hillary Duff, Lizzie McGuire Realness, putting out a new album.

Yes, Olivia Rodriguez out there killing the game. What's her secret? This is a really stimulating thought exercise. So I would encourage our listeners to weigh in on the, you know, benefits. and the disadvantages of going through the Disney machine and kind of tell us where you think different artists are after having emerged from that specter of the mouse. And you can reach us to tell us about that

at Switch on Pop on all the socials. Is there a Disney curse? That's what I'm saying. That's what I'm asking here, basically. Switched on Pop is produced by Rihanna Cruz, engineered by Brandon McFarland, edited by Lisa Soap. Our theme music is by Jossie Adams and Zach Tenar.

of Arc Iris, or a member of the Vox Media Podcast Network, and a production of Vulture and New York Magazine, which you can subscribe to at nymag.com slash pod. Like I said earlier, find us on social media at Switch on Pop, and check us out on YouTube at Switch on Pop. We've got videos up there. It's quite fun, I think. We'll be back again on Tuesday with a brand new episode.

And until then... Until then, thanks. Thanks for listening. For listening.