Switched on Pop - Jonas vs. Jonas: Or How We Learned to Stop Worrying and Love a Boy Band

Episode Date: May 19, 2016

A battle between brothers is playing out on the pop charts, a sibling rivalry the likes of which the music industry hasn't seen since 1987, when Michael and Janet Jackson's 1987 "Bad" and "Let's Wait Awhile" jockeyed for peak position on the Hot 100. Today, Nick, the youngest of the Jonas Brothers, looks for redemption from their boy band past in the moody, adult love song "Close" ft. Tove Lo, while middle brother Joe and his band DNCE use the explosive, retro "Cake By the Ocean" to replace a squeaky-clean look with a profane party anthem. Tune in to learn how these two songs, sounding so different on the surface, have something very surprising in common. Then, stick around for a deep dive through the wonders of the Jonas back catalog, along with a detour to the life and music of another troubled child prodigy named Wolfgang, that will leave you thinking of the frère Jonas in a whole new light. FEATURING - Nick Jonas - Close - DNCE - Cake By The Ocean - Beach Boys - Misirlou - Jonas Brothers - Mandy - Jonas Brothers - Burnin’ Up - Demi Lovato - La La Land - Mozart - Laureate Dominum - Mozart - Eine Kleine Nachtmusik - Mozart - Batiene Und Bastienne - Mozart - Bona Nox! bist a rechts Ox, K. 561 - Jonas Brothers - Bounce - Mozart - Requiem in D minor K626: I Requiem - Nikolaus Harnoncourt - Mozart - Le nozze di Figaro, K. 492: Overture: Wiener Philharmoniker  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Attention Spotify! Has arrived the new Good Girl Jasmine Absolute of Caroline Herrera, a fragrance intense with character gourmet and addictive. Imagine a jasmine-envolvent, tofi caramelized and tonka-tosted. A combination that seduce from the first instant and she has a wea. Good Girl Jasmine Absolute, hypnotic, irresistible. Discover it now, and let you're involver for its essence. If you're tired of endless scrolling to figure out where to eat, same.

I'm Stephanie Wu, editor-in-chief of Eater. We've just launched the new issue. and way better Eater app. It has all the restaurants we love, gives you personalized picks wherever you are, and serves up smarter search results just for you. You can find my list of the best places for martinis and fries in New York City. And save your favorite spots, share lists, follow editors, and book right in the app.

Download the Eater app at Eaterapp.com. It's free for iOS users. A quick warning. This episode of Switched on Pop does include a song with A single expletive, so maybe you want to earmouth the little ones. Charlie, let's play a word association game. Okay, I'm going to say a word. You say the first thing that pops into your head.

You ready? Let's do it. The word is the Jonas Brothers. Teeny-bopper. Good, another. Disney. Good, another. Not for me.

Not for you. Who are they for, Charlie? Probably somebody under the age of 13. You're absolutely right. So even though this trio of young men, have not exactly been critical darlings. I think if we look more closely at the works, you'll be surprised at how talented and original

these three handsome boys actually are. Okay, okay. But at this moment, two of the Jonas brothers are attacking the pop charts, climbing their way up, and this is a chance for us to listen to these two artists and see how do you reinvent yourself

from a teeny bopper into a mature solo artist And along the way, we'll learn something about the music business and we'll see which Jonas brother is winning the battle. Which Jonas brother reigns supreme. Two Jonas's enter, but only one Jonas can leave. Let's do it. I'm songwriter Charlie Harding. And I'm musicologist Nate Sloan.

Two Jonas brothers are climbing up the charts. We have the youngest of the Jonas's Nick with his song Close featuring Toys' Tocelon. And then we also have the middle brother Joe Jonas and his band D-N-C-E, which I guess is supposed to mean dance, but whenever I see it, I always think dunce. And their song, Cake by the Ocean, these two songs have peaked at 26 and 9 respectively on the Hot 100, making the case that the Jonas brothers may be back. If you're a child star trying to reinvent yourself, how might you go about doing that? Well, you need to add some credibility. Okay. And so I think you can do that by either getting really serious and moody or by becoming a pop sex icon.

Wow, you hit the nail on the head. Those are two well-trod roots. And I think these two tracks embody both of those persona. Hell yeah. I'm on it. Right, so let's dig in to Nick Jonas and his song Close to get a taste of the moody, mature route. They won't, they won't be careful, but I guess that you don't know me. Because if I want you and I want you, babe, going backwards, won't ask for space. The space was just a word made up by someone who was afraid and get to.

Okay, so if we're making the argument that this song is intended to project this moody, mature persona, how do you hear this track accomplishing that, Charlie? I don't know. You're the musicologist. You're probably hearing a lot more than I'm hearing. What do you hear? Well, now that you mention it, for me, the moment of this song that seems to signal adulthood and sort of a certain world weariness is what's, to me, the most exciting part of this song is the moment. Right before the chorus where all of the sudden a chasm opens up, where the void exposes itself. In the pre-chorus, Nick Jonas sings, Space is just a word made up by someone who's afraid to get to. And then the pause, the void, the chasm, and then the release.

Yes. That's called text painting. Yes. Bravo, Charlie. As in, the music paints the lyric. And that's a cool thing. That's not something I hear in a lot of pop songs is this long pause that sort of then erupts into a chorus. And there's something about the daringness of that silence, that willingness to get close, right?

To cross the void. that I feel is like very adult and mature and like maybe reflects having been in a few relationships and knowing what it takes to really make that leap. Right. If he's more mature in his relationships and maybe hesitant about getting in too deep too quickly, he is also demonstrating compositional restraint, which I think is one of the signs of a good songwriter. Speaking of good songwriting, there's one other little detail of that. moment I love. What do you got? As he's going up to the brink of the void, he's slowly ascending a scale, right? This place was just a word made up by someone who's a friend and get to. F sharp, G sharp, A, B, and then he goes not continuing up the scale, but drops down to a kind of surprising note, down to an E. and that E is the note that just sits there echoing into the void, into the silence.

Oh, so he drops the scale down into that chasm, that empty space. Yes, it's very hesitant, it's very uncertain, and by going to this E, which is not a note we've heard recently, we didn't hear it in the whole pre-chorus. Actually, probably the last time we heard it was way back, I mean, and by way back, I mean like 20 seconds ago, go in the very start of the song, the beginning of the verse, the first note he sings is an E. Oh, damn, damn, I'm so perplexed with just one breath. I'm right in. Oh, okay.

So, bringing us back to home. Yes, and bringing us back to the sort of place of uncertainty that the song starts in, where he's feeling perplexed, where he's shocked. and then maybe the last thing before he takes the plunge into closeness, and the gating space is the memory of that, maybe the possibility of going back there, but he doesn't. When the chorus launches,

he goes back to the B, and we feel that closeness. Okay, so he retreats and then comes back up and says, okay, no, I'm actually in it, In it to win it. In it to win it, exactly. I'm not going to go to E. Even though E's kind of nice, it's kind of major, it's kind of safe, right?

He's going to continue that upward motion and go back. Yeah, so the whole song is, am I going to commit? And I think that we get, I guess, at the very beginning, this hint of this underlying romance, it's the opening melody, right? That opening melody later gets picked up. in the chorus as the main hook of the chorus. So what's kind of buried and hidden

at the very beginning of the song, hinting at what's the come, turns into this full commitment, the largest part of the song. Oh, okay. So what was hesitant at first becomes convinced by the chorus. Exactly.

All right, Nick Jonas. I like what you're doing here. Okay, I see some begrudging respect. in your tone here, Charlie. Do you think Nick Jonas has successfully pulled off the transition from young Starlet to moody, mature musician? It's catchy enough. I'm convinced. You're convinced, okay.

We've just explored Nick Jonas's new, vulnerable, sexy, cool, mysterious persona. In terms of lyrics, Charlie, this next song will give you much to chew on. Now let's turn to his older brother, Joe. The band, again, is D-N-C-E. The song is Cake by the Ocean. Yeah, chew on it, cake by the ocean. I got it. Fantasy, it would be a life fantasy.

But you're moving so carefully. Let's start living dangerously. So if Cake by the Ocean is trying to project this image of the bad boy party rocker, how is the song built to reinforce that image? Well, the first thing is the song is fun. It is, right? It's kind of hard to resist. Absolutely. I think the very first thing that I pay attention to is that surf riff on the guitar, it sounds like old surf rock.

You know, let's all party and go down to the beach. The thing that I notice is that actually even shares a lot of the same notes as the most famous guitar line ever in surf rock, Mizorulau. There's something there, right? Absolutely. Okay, so we've got the guitar featured prominently kind of a real. retro surf vibe. We are ready to have a fun time. Yeah, and then on top of that, there's these layered in other guitars sort of referencing

funk. And then to just top the whole thing off, to put a cherry on top, if you will. I don't know, dessert metaphor. Sorry. Lyrically, he is trying to push social boundaries and be somewhat transgressive and saying he's going to get all screwed up and have a fun time. Right. he doesn't say screwed up Charlie, does he?

Trying to keep a PG. He says a bad word. He does. We get it. You're a bad boy. A Jonas brother swearing. The horror. That sound you just heard was me clutching my pearls, Charlie.

Yes. Saying some bad words, trying to be a bad boy. These wonderful lyrics full of curses and sort of inept sexual innuendos. Apparently, the song title was coined by the Swedish producer. behind this song who couldn't remember the English phrase, sex on the beach. They thought it was cake by the ocean. That close enough, same thing.

Harkening back to our episode on Max Martin and nonsensical Swedish lyrics, there are some in this song that completely baffle me, such as, don't waste time with a masterpiece. You should be rolling with me. Waste time with a masterpiece. Waste time with the masterpiece. You should be rolling with me.

You should be rolling with me. Is that like saying you should lower your standards? I guess. Yeah, I guess so. I've never heard of a human referred to as a masterpiece, but I get where they're trying to go with it. Yes, yeah, totally, Charlie. In all these ways, Joe Jonas and Dunce, I mean dance, seem to be trying to project this image of the fun-loving bad boy partiers, edgy, but not too edgy. Not too edgy. Can't be too edgy.

otherwise it's not going to be on top 40 radio. What do you think? Are they successful? Are you swayed by their party rock anthem here? Yeah, they've successfully grabbed my attention. I previously had never heard a Jonas Brothers song, and now I've heard two and enjoyed them quite a bit. Look at you.

Thinking of these two songs side by side now, Charlie, with your keen musical ear, I'm curious, even though they sound radically different on the surface, projecting these two differing musical personas, Do you see any commonalities between these tracks? Now that you say it, I think that there's actually quite a bit in common despite the two very different moods that these songs are trying to capture. Yes, good. Tell me, tell me.

The first thing I notice is that both songs are based off of one riff. Remember how we talked about that line in close that kind of starts as an instrumental thing and then comes into the chorus? It's basically being played throughout most of the song. And then similarly, in Cake by the Ocean, the guitar line just plows on through. Yeah, I totally agree. These are very riff-heavy songs that kind of get going at the beginning and pretty much chug on through the end. Not only that, both of them are using these kind of three-cord progressions.

Throughout the entire song, hardly mixing it up. Yeah, that's a good point, Charlie, because you see both in close and cake by the ocean, when you get to the chorus, there's no harmonic change. The only thing that changes is the texture, the instrumentation, the drum patterns, melody, the vocal harmonies. Come to think of it, neither of these songs has a bridge. They're both kind of just verse, pre-chorus, chorus, chorus, verse pre-chorus, chorus, chorus, chorus, verse pre-chorus, chorus, chorus, chorus, chorus, chorus, chorus. Yeah, that's exactly right. no bridge, almost identical forms. Can I blow your mind, Charlie?

Go for it. These two songs by two different Jonas brothers, trying to project two very different visions of their mature comebacks, are produced by drum roll please, none other than the same exact Swedish producers. No. I cannot lie. They're trying to create their own individual identities and separate themselves from their boy band image

and the songwriters are the same? I know, isn't it just, it's so perfect. It's just like the music business in a Swedish nutshell. So are they really reinventing themselves? Charlie, that is precisely my burning question. So let's take a quick break, and then when we come back, let's delve into the Jonas Brothers back catalog

and see if this is the only way that the Jonas Brothers could reinvent themselves. Maria, you have a podcast now and you need to start acting like it. What's the first step as a podcaster? Well, you have to ask lots of questions. I'm Maria Sharpova and I'm hosting a new podcast called Pretty Tough. Every week, I'm sitting down with trailblazing women at the top of their game to discuss ambition, work ethic, and the ups and downs that come on the path to achieving greatness.

I have a few pretty tough questions for you. Okay. Ready? Ready. Do not sugarcoat something for me. No, no. We'll dive into their stories. and get valuable insights from top executives, actors, entrepreneurs, and other individuals

who have inspired me so much in my own journey. Pretty tough is your front row seat to the women who have demonstrated the power in being unapologetic in their pursuits. I hope you'll join us. New episodes drop Wednesdays on YouTube or in your favorite podcast app. Immigration may be Donald Trump's signature issue. President Trump is now targeting predominantly Democratic cities for ice raids and deportations. Dozens of protesters clashing.

with immigration and customs enforcement agents in Minneapolis Tuesday. We will begin the process of returning millions and millions of criminal aliens back to the places from which they came. But what we want to do in this space is talk about America and politics beyond the current president. So what do most Americans think about deportation and border security, period? I think that Americans are definitely against the kind of violent displays that we've seen in the street from ICE. when it comes to the question of deportation, the answer is more complicated. My sense is that people want order at the border.

They don't like the idea of having no idea who's coming into the United States at any given time. The view on immigration from the bottom up instead of the top down. That's this week on America Actually. Every Saturday in your audio and video feeds. So, Charlie, now we go back to the beginning, the beginning of the Jonas Brothers career. possibly the end of my career because I have been Googling these three young men so much that I am almost without a doubt on some federal watch lists. Oh, no.

And the next time you see me may not be in L.A. or New York, but on to catch a predator. But I do have to say that after this experience, I've come away with a lot of respect and affection for the Jonas brothers. Originally, the sons of Jonas, actually. Really? Oh, okay. I didn't totally realize this. And I don't know about you, Charlie, though I imagine you're as ignorant as I am. Yeah.

I imagine the Jonas Brothers as kind of this manufactured Disney pop confection. What I learned was that they grew up playing music together, writing their own songs, playing their own instruments. They were kind of child prodigies, honestly. Okay. And I think if we go back to some of their earliest music, we can hear some other. possible roots that the Jonas brothers could have taken to their pop success had they not become part of the Disney monolith. If we go to a track from their first album, what we hear might surprise you. It's, to me, like garage rock, power pop, lots of distorted guitars, and like these exuberant choruses,

and Charlie, killer bridges. Ooh, all right, I want to hear it. I know you love a good bridge. I do like that bridge. Let's spend my favorite song from that record, Mandy. That's so different. That is not what I would have expected. Right?

Okay, but let's get to the bridge, Charlie, because it is. Here. What is up? Vocal harmonies. That is nice. Yeah, man. When you've got a 14-year-old who can sing like an angel, man, you got to take advantage of that. What's up, little Nick?

Also, a great sort of a weird. foreshadowing of the future that they don't know is coming when the protagonist of the song Mandy only likes boy bands in S Club 7 But she only sings Es Club 7 in all those boy bands

Like, oh little do they know what is in store for them So the future could have been so different Yeah, right? If they had like stayed in the garage If they hadn't been so darn cute, if they hadn't been so darn charismatic if they hadn't, you know, started relationships with Demi Lovato and Miley Cyrus,

maybe they'd just be some scruffy kids from Jersey playing rock and roll. But of course, that's not what happened. They get sucked into the Disney machine. Yeah. And if we flash forward a few years, we can come to another hit that they still wrote, still perform themselves, called Burning Up. And I think it's still, I like this song, but I think you can hear that their songwriting

is becoming a little more contrived and a little more centrist. All right, let's check it out. Yeah, it's like Disney said, can we make the killers but kind of cute? Around the same time, Charlie, they start writing for other artists. They compose and perform

the majority of Demi Lovato's breakout album, don't forget. Oh, all right. As a side note, Demi Lovato, a singer I never listened to before in my life, actually has a pretty great voice. Ooh, okay, cool. And again, I think we find on this record them writing really serviceable pop songs. Like, really effective, really catchy, but not with that spark of joy and exuberance that maybe we heard on their initial album. Like a little more calculated, perhaps.

Hmm. Maybe more intentional composition. They're growing up, becoming good songwriters. Precisely, yeah, there's a savviness there. They know their way around the industry. They know what people like. I mean, it's definitely impressive. I feel myself like I need to wind back a little bit and examine why did I have all these preconceived notions about the Jonas Brothers.

I feel like I'm bringing this sort of rockish snobitude to their music, which I really don't like that I'm doing that. Yeah, so where do you think that's coming from, Charlie? Part of it's coming from my snobbish tastes when I was, you know, that, that young teeny bopper age, which have obviously evolved to incorporate lots of Top 100 in a very celebratory way. But maybe it's just because they were young and marketed not to me. And so I just didn't pay attention. Yeah. And thus developed some sort of snobbish attitude. Which can turn into an aversion.

Yeah, I don't like that. Youth in music has always been the subject of desire, fascination, repulsion, aversion. aversion, the Jonas Brothers in a way are not very new because if we go to one of the most famous composers ever, perhaps a composer synonymous with classical music, Wolfgang, Amadeus, Mozart. Oh, you bring it out some classical masters on me. Bringing out Wolfie. Amadeus.

Yeah, I think if we look at the career of Mozart, you can see it's always been hard to be a child Prodigy. And in a way, Mozart was actually in his own kind of family band. Really? So perhaps by looking at Mozart's early music and career, we can make you even more sympathetic to the Jonas Brothers, Charlie. Are you saying that Mozart was in a boy band? Yeah, I guess I am. All right, take me there.

From the age of 6 to 16, Mozart was on the road. And most of that time, he was on the road with his sister, Narnar. Like many great family bands over the years with sort of tragic backstories, the Beach Boys, Jackson 5, for instance, Mozart and his sister were governed by a domineering father, Leopold, and their childhoods were very stunted. They didn't have a normal upbringing, just like the Jonas brothers did not have a normal upbringing.

Maybe more violins, fewer electric guitars. Yeah, precisely. What's astonishing about Mozart is how capable he is at such a young age. I mean, we can listen to an opera that he wrote at the age of 12, Charlie. Oh, my God. Called Bastien Un Bastien. How many operas did you write by 12 again, Charlie? Well, I wrote some really dramatic poetry.

That's close, right? That's the start, yeah. As a side note, this opera was commissioned by none other than Franz Mesmer. Oh, yes, of course, Franz Mesmer. The inventor of hypnosis. Oh, mesmer. Mesmer. Booia.

Ah, you catch on quick, young Harding. Thank you. So let's listen to the overture of this opera. Now, our keen-eyed classical fans out there will notice a resemblance this bit of Mozart Juvenalia to one of the most famous pieces of Western history, Beethoven's Third Symphony, the Eeroica. You put them back to, back and wow, it is striking.

Oh yeah. Now, did Beethoven rip off a 12-year-old boy for one of his most famous compositions? Hard to say. Probably not. But still, a striking parallel. If I may be so bold, I'd like to make one more Mozart Jonas Brothers parallel. Mozart, perhaps because his childhood was so stunted, was always looking to goof off. He wrote some wonderfully silly songs, including this great one called Bona

Knox. So the lyrics to this, Charlie, are Good night, you are quite an ox. Good night, my dear Lata. Good night. Fooey, fooey. Good night, good night. We still have far to go today.

Good night, good night. Poop in your bed and make it burst. Good night. Sleep tight. And stick your butt to your mouth. What? Mozart. It's so brilliant.

It's not only does he write this silly. song in multiple languages, including Latin, German, Italian, and English. If that wasn't enough, he sets the whole thing in a canon. Meaning that everything is repeating over and over. Yes, exactly. This silly song is in immaculate, perfect, intricate counterpoint. Because, of course, Mozart. Even his fuller's song is expertly composed.

And just like the Jonas brothers needed to release steam with some goofy songs of their own, such as bounce. I'm the kind of guy that like to scream. And all these other people want to do it like me. So bounce, just bounce. Let me see that body bounce. Because my run is so fly and my jeans are so tight that I make these people bounce. Bounce, just bounce. That's ridiculous.

It's like the lonely island and the Jonas brother. got together. Yeah, well, when your childhood is taken away from you, you need to act out a little bit. Stupid videos on YouTube that over 11 million people watch, just like a normal teenager. Right, right. That's the difference. So Mozart must have had an awkward teen period where he then had to step out and try to distinguish himself as a nuanced adult composer. Did he go moody and broody or sex icon? Yeah, you're absolutely right. That was a tough transition from the child wonder, all of a sudden you're an adult and you're not a wonder anymore.

You're just a composer trying to make a living in 18th century Vienna. Poor guy. He's like both Jonas Brothers at once in a way because he'll do whatever he needs to do to put food on his plate basically. Okay. So

if someone commissions him to write a brooding, dark Requiem Mass, he will do it and it'll be the most haunting introspective thing you've ever heard in your life. And if someone needs him to write a ribbled opera lampooning the sexual mores of Enlightenment society, he will give you a Figuero or a Don Giovanni that is just pure sex party anthem. He made it out of those awkward years successfully. Yes, he did. He did. It was a bit

rocky, but he eventually got there. So Charlie, as we wrap it. As we wrap it. up, I don't mean to suggest that the Jonas brothers are Mozartian. I don't mean to suggest that had they not fallen into the clutches of Disney, they would have been, you know, the next beach boys or something. But I am curious, after doing this deep dive through the Jonas discography with me, are your preconceived notions changed? Do you think about these young men differently now? Well, obviously because you made some erudite reference to Mozart, you. convinced me the... Dropped the M-bomb.

But in all seriousness, my perspective has definitely evolved. In fact, I'm not really proud of how I felt about their music at the beginning of the show. You want to make an on-air apology? Nick, Joe, Kevin, I'm deeply sorry for being a snobby bastard about your music. Here's the thing. I think that music marketed to kids, I hear as inherently more produced or contrived than the rest of pop radio. But let's be honest, all pop radio is massed for a mass audience, is produced, has a machine of people working behind it, has dozens of collaborators in the studio, everything being polished just perfectly for a release, which is expected to, perform extremely well. So when I look at it, I just don't see that much difference between music

which is marketed to kids versus music which is marketed to all of us. And it all deserves a deep look. Wow. I'm going to start a slow clap in my bedroom by myself and see if anyone joins in. Charlie, I totally agree. And I will say that listening to their early material part of me thinks maybe they should go back to their roots to reinvent themselves, not hire the slickest producers, but go back to what made them successful in the first place and maybe see if there's something there that will rejuvenate their careers. I like some of those fun guitars and vocal harmonies, but there are some fun stuff there.

Even these new songs, I like them. They're fun. They're catchy. Yeah, I totally agree. And above all, you've definitely convinced me, hey, these guys can sing, they can play their instruments. They have talent, which lets me know that there could be a lot more coming out of them in the future. Well, this has been another riveting week of, of Switched-on Pop with me, Nate Sloan. And me, Charlie Harding.

We also got editing and production support from our team, Susan Pergo and Mike. And our logo has been designed by the fourth Jonas Brother, Luke Harris. You can also talk to us on Twitter at Switched On Pop. We love taking song recommendations there. You can find past episodes on our website, www.switchedonpop.com. And just as the Jonas Brothers are trying to prove their worth

in a crowded field, so are your humble podcasters here. If you will leave us a review on iTunes goes a long way towards staking our claim to the pop throne. And we'll be back in two weeks with another episode of Switched-on-Pod.

And until then, thanks for listening. Convierte your passion in a business with Shopify and bathe records of ventas with the form of pay with a better conversion of the world. Has heard of bien? The best conversion of the world.

The incredible system of Pago of Shopify, facilita the companies in your website, in the website, and in whatever

that's music for your ears. No, you're doing your business will your

business will your business. You know, your period of month in