Switched on Pop - Kesha v Katy + Tayla Parx on pop’s obsession with eras

Episode Date: August 13, 2024

On June 17 the pop world was rocked by three letters: LOL. Kesha tweeted the acronym immediately after Katy Perry announced her new single "Woman's World," which was co-written by Dr. Luke. Since Kesha had accused Dr. Luke of sexual assault a decade earlier, many read her "LOL" as directed at her one-time friend Perry. Kesha, meanwhile, released her own single a week before Perry's, a wild "Joyride" featuring hyperactive accordion, percussive handclaps, and quasi-operatic vocals. Both pop stars have much at stake with their new songs. For Kesha, it's her first independent release since finishing her multi album contract with Dr. Luke's record label. For Katy Perry, it's her attempt to reconquer the charts after her last attempt fizzled. On this episode, we listen closely to both songs to hear how each artist is navigating a pivotal moment in their career. Since we are talking about the changing eras of some of our biggest stars, we knew we had to speak to an expert on the subject: Tayla Parx, the singer and songwriter whose newest track "Era" considers the tension between letting the moment define you, or defining it yourself. Songs Discussed: Kesha - Joyride, Tik Tok, Eat the Acid, Raising Hell, Praying Katy Perry - Womans World, I Kissed a Girl, California Gurls, Daisies Lady Gaga - Born This Way Madonna - Express Yourself Tayla Parx - Era Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

If you're tired of endless scrolling to figure out where to eat, same. I'm Stephanie Wu, editor-in-chief of Eater. We've just launched the new-ish and way better Eater app. It has all the restaurants we love, gives you personalized picks wherever you are, and serves up smarter search results just for you. You can find my list of the best places for martinis and fries in New York City. And save your favorite spots, share lists, follow editors, and book right in the app. the Eater app at Eaterapp.com. It's free for iOS users. Welcome to Switchdown Pop. I'm musicologist Nate Sloan.

And I'm songwriter Charlie Harding. Charlie, this week on the show, we have a tale of friendship, betrayal, love, crime, and pop music. And it's a tale that begins with three letters, L-O-L. Laugh Out Loud? Yes, not lots of love like your grandma might text you, but laugh out loud. That's what the singer and songwriter and pop icon Kesha tweeted on June 17th. I know it's X now, but it's, come on, we're not going to, what's the past tense of Xing? She tweeted. She tweeted these three letters that caused an international furor. Why was that?

Well, June 17th was also the day that fellow pop icon Katie Perry announced her newest single woman's world. Oh, yeah. That's a rough one. Speculation ran rampant. Was Keshe's enigmatic lull tweet, a reference to her one-time friend and collaborator's announcement?

Perhaps. Perry's new song was produced and co-written by Dr. Luke, the producer who Kesha had sued in 2014 for sexual assault and battery. Then Dr. Luke countersued for defamation and their respective lawsuits went back and forth in the courts for years,

and the two only finally settled in 2023. In the meantime, there was a whole social movement started around this case with fans coining the free Kesha catchphrase, and lines were drawn in the sand within the music industry. My understanding is that within the courts, that there was no clear decision made that there was an out-of-court settlement. Yeah, to be clear, no criminal charges were ever filed against Dr. Luke, just civil lawsuits back and forth.

And so legally everything at this point are still allegations, but in the court of cultural and public opinion, the pop fandom has largely cited overwhelmingly with Kesha. This is what led many of those fans to believe that the LOL heard around the world was a reference to Perry working with Kesha's nemesis. A figure, like you said, many fans and insiders have shunned. Now, Kesha never elaborated. on this tweet. But shortly thereafter, on July 4th, she released her own new music, a track called Joyride.

Joyride. Teaser. So on this episode, I want to listen to both of these latest releases from Kesha and Katie Perry to hear how they are navigating a pivotal moment in both of their careers. Kesha, with her first independent release since breaking her contract with Dr. Luke, and Katie Perry trying to mount a comeback after a series of commercial and critical misfires. And hanging in the balance is a story of a fractured friendship and one artist's recovery. This is exciting. Okay, maybe at the end of the episode, I can take the microphone for a minute because there's a larger story happening within this narrative, which is really about two artists moving into new eras, which has been a big part of the pop culture conversation as of late.

I have a story about eras with the great songwriter and artist Taylor Parks that I want to share at the end of the episode. Absolutely, Chuck. This is a story of eras in many ways. And the fact that Kesha and Katie Perry both released new songs a week apart is fitting. I mean, these two artist's careers have been linked since they both broke out in the late 2000s. Perry burst into pop stardom in 2008 with I Kissed a Girl. A pop smash made by Dr. Luke that was both a fun top 40 hit, but also criticized, not just for its queer baiting, but also for its delegitimizing lesbian and bisexual relationships. I would say it's greater crime is the lyrical attention on the phoneme it, which is one of the most unattractive vowels that you can sing, much less to elongate it into a Melisba to try it. That is just It's lyrically indefensible.

Yeah, that's a musical crime. The shuffle beat, on the other hand, has a lot to recommend it. Now, who appeared in the music video for this song? None other than Kesha, who was about to have her own breakout moment with the huge hit TikTok. The original TikTok, the better TikTok, the TikTok that I wish we had today. Now, this track was also produced by Dr. Luke, as was Katie Perry's next big hit, California Girls. And this was an interesting moment in the sort of twinned path of these two artists

because California Girls bore more than a striking resemblance to TikTok, which was demonstrated in a mashup that went viral right around this time by DJ Place Boing. I'm not sure if I'm pronouncing that correctly. Sorry, DJ Place Boying. This is uncanny the way that these two sound alike. And I get it. Like if you're a producer and you make a hit, you're like, well, I'm going to do that again. But it also raises the criticism of all pop music sounds the same.

Audiences probably don't receive it quite as positively. Whatever the similarity, it certainly didn't hurt these artists careers. No. They were coming up together, experiencing massive success together. But 16 years later, a lot has changed. Yeah. Now when Kesha performs TikTok live at Coachella, she changes the opening line of the song, which originally was, Wake up in the morning feeling like P. Diddy.

Wake up in the morning feeling like P. Diddy. P. Diddy at the time, major hip-hop kingmaker. Today, his reputation has been soured as he has allegedly assaulted multiple women, including extensive video evidence, which the entire internet seems to have watched. As a result, when Renee Rapp brought out Kesha to perform TikTok live, this is how they amended the song's opening. Nice. So we live in a moment when many of the kingmakers, as you said, of the music industry back then, have since been dethroned. Yeah. And a lot else has changed.

Katie Perry is no longer the chart conqueror she once was. She hasn't had a top 10 hit since 2017. Oh, it's been a minute. So there's a lot at stake for each of these artists. And I want to listen to their new releases through that lens. And why don't we start with Kesha? How is she dealing with this transformational moment in her career? Well, Charlie, a little bit like this.

What opera is this? I love that. her big release at this moment when she has been freed is a song that says, I'm just looking for a joyride. And this song was released on American Independence Day, a choice that was not accidental, right? The song is Keshe's first independent release after fulfilling her multi-album contract with Dr. Luke's record label, Kimisabi Records. All right, let's put this thing in reverse and go back to the start of the joy ride. What? Okay, Charlie, before we eat. even get a lyric from Kesha, I feel like this song is announcing something just in its sonic landscape,

right? Accordian plus handclaps. Like, what is the song telling us at the start? Well, it sounds like maybe she went on a vacation to Spain and listened to some flamenca music and then went to Mexico and got a bit of accordion music. It's very international, definitely signaling some kind of change. I feel like in addition to this international flavor, the song, is telling us, don't take this moment too seriously. Be careful, Nate. Many years ago, when we at all suggested that the accordion can sometimes be perceived

as an unsurious instrument, we were eviscerated by the association of accordion players. And to their credit, the accordion is an amazing instrument. You played the accordion. But nevertheless, I mean, it's one of the original party instruments, right? It's an orchestra. It's a party in a box. And that kind of lighthearted mood is reinforced by the very first lyric that Keshah sings.

I mean, that is what a way to announce your independence. Are you a man? Because I'm a bitch. It's like, it's kind of a return to the, dare I say, brady, Kesha of her. 2009 breakout. Yeah, it does seem like a kind of return to form in the way that TikTok was so irreverent. This is also irreverent. Some have also pointed that it might be a nod to the artist Cher, who famously said that if you're

nice, they walk over you, and if you stand up for yourself, they call you a bitch. That's interesting. And maybe even the way Kesha sings, Joy Ride. Joyride! is like a little bit of shares quasi operatic vocal approach as well. Oh, interesting. I was hearing some nods to Gaga and maybe even Nicki Minaj. But yeah, I hear the share.

Some of these references may be obscure, but others are crystal clear, like when Kesha sings, get in loser. I have to admit that I had to look this one up on genius.com. And you learned that it's a reference to. Mean Girls. Get in, loser. We're going shopping. Iconic.

One of the best films of all time. And I feel like this Mean Girls reference is signaling that the song's intent is to be ridiculously fun. Right. Written by Kesha, Madison Love, and Zone. The bridge of this song is simply a remix of the phrase, I'm a bitch. It all plays. kind of like a PG-13 Eurovision song.

Yes, yes, it does. Oh, my God, Charlie. Cosmopolitan instrumentation. It's nonsense lyrics. It's sort of Euro dance beat. Wait, can we get Keshe some dual citizenship and have her compete in the 2025 Eurovision? You know, it's important to remember, actually, that the rules of Eurovision do not require you to be a citizen of said nation. Flo Rida has participated in the past.

Sleen Dion, clearly Kesha is next year. All right, let's get our best minds on this. This should be a core tenet of the Harris Walls platform, I think. Send Keshe to Europe. The lighthearted, Eurovision-y vibe of this song might be a little surprising, but I think it's trying to make a statement in itself that Kesha is here, to move on. Yeah.

In her previous releases, she found ways to address her ongoing legal and personal struggles head-on. Her first album, after suing Dr. Luke, was Rainbow from 2016, and it featured songs like Praying, which never named Dr. Luke outright, but many read as a reference to the producer. Yeah, and it was a very earnest ballad-style song. her the truth I could tell. I'll just say this is I wish you farewell. I hope you're somewhere praying. Her next album, 2020's High Road,

continued the lyrical themes of overcoming with tracks like the lead single, Raising Hell, featuring Big Frida. These were both huge evolutions for the artist, moving from TikTok's sing-talking to, praying's diva-like vocal to then going into the genre of

bounce with a little bit of twang in her vocal. And then her next and most recent album, 2023's gag order, represented another transformation. It featured stark, minimalist production by Rick Rubin and had a

somber, introspective quality that you can hear on tracks like Eat the Acid. didn't want i got used to being lost and then in 2024 keshah was finally free and what does freedom sound like no longer actually serious or even self-reflective it sounds like this i wouldn't say it's not introspective but if it is introspective it is only in the way that it is such a 180 from the sincerity of the last couple of recordings i suppose it's introspective in the sense of exploring the ontology of being a bitch.

I stand corrected. But I do appreciate your point. I would never say that one can't be ribbled and silly and not also have something profound to say. Thank you. But I do feel like this song and perhaps whatever record Kesha releases next might be more of a celebration, which leads me to ask, what about our erstwhile former friend Katie Perry? Let's take five. And when we come back, head over to woman's world.

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All right, Charlie, it's time for us, two men, to learn a few things about women. Oh, okay. Mars and Venus. I think that's the, I'm pretty sure that's it, right? Let me sit you straight. I feel like a girl boss by proxy. This is Woman's World. It's Katie Perry's latest, and it's been getting kind of a rough reception.

That's generous. She has been getting clowned. Yeah. Clown for the rollout of the song, which. included her wearing a 500-foot-long dress train with the song's entire lyrics printed on it. Then she released a music video that people found so bewildering that Perry had to tweet, it's satire, which is never something you want to have to explain. Yeah, it was mocked for its appropriation of strong female characters like Rosie the Riveter

and putting them in what seemed like a somewhat regressive song. Laura Snape's of The Guardian called Woman's World, quote, a song that made me feel stupider every sorry time I listen to it, end quote. Oh, it's rough. Well, regardless of the song's visual and lyrical sins, I think another reason that people are finding it objectionable is that the musical world of the song is also somewhat derivative. Take the chord progression in the chorus, for instance.

I feel like I've heard this one a few times. That may be because these chords are very similar to the ones found in the chorus of Lady Gaga's 2011 hit, Born This Way, another kind of empowerment anthem. Nate, you know I mashed them up. Oh, man, okay. To be clear, that is entirely the production. of Katie Perry's woman's world with the vocal from Born This Way.

I had to repitch Katie Perry's vocal to fit into the mix, but it's the same progression. That mashed up post-chorus seriously slams. Thanks, yeah, it's a good mashup, maybe better than the original woman's world. I mean, I think the Katie Perry progression

has like one extra chord. Sure, sure, sure. And surely, you know, I'm not going to sit here and say that cribbing a chord progression is a cardinal sin in modern pop. No, no. I mean, probably both of these songs have a debt to Madonna's Express Yourself.

And, you know, both those songs probably owe something to the song, Express Yourself by Charles Wright and the Watts 101 Third Street rhythm band. Express yourself. And to the staple singers for their song, Respect Yourself. Yeah, I mean, musically, those are pretty different, though. Yeah, musically, I think they definitely sound different. But at least lyrically, I hear a progression from Charles Wright and then the staple singers and sort of black and black female empowerment to Madonna, women's empowerment, to Lady Gaga, queer empowerment, to Katie Perry empowerment? Well, yeah, perhaps that's the issue is that Katie Perry didn't add enough or bring enough to the table to justify the borrowing.

Yeah, and Lady Gaga's interpretation of this idea was, I think, about making a larger umbrella of expressing yourself and being born this way. And it feels like women's world maybe is going backward to like a second wave feminism. Right. And then there's the Dr. Luke of it all, which left people asking, how can you release a song about women's empowerment produced by someone accused of sexual assault? And I can offer at least a partial answer, which is that Dr. Luke still makes hits a little more quietly than he used to. Yeah. He co-wrote Say-So for Doja Cat in 2019 and was even nominated for a Grammy under the pseudonym Tyson Tracks. He used the alias made in China to produce tracks for Kim Petrus. Yeah.

And he used the barely even trying pseudonym Locker Duke. to produce Little Wayne's shimmy. Oh, my gosh. And it's worth pointing out that, you know, Kim Petrus's career, which many saw as Ascendant, has really struggled, I think largely due to the fact that

Kim Petrus' core fans, a largely queer fan base, has been very critical of her continuing relationship with Dr. Luke and his music. Right. Now, some fans speculate that Kim Petrus might be in a sense. similar situation to the one Keshe was in where they have a contractual obligation to work with

Dr. Luke. But I think you're right that the perception of her collaboration with him definitely affected her reception. Kim Petrus's full-length album Problematic, produced by Dr. Luke and others, really fell flat on its face. And so it makes me think about the Katie Perry song as well, how it might be received if there were a different producer and perhaps a different lyric associated with this beat because, you know, the express yourself core progression is actually quite fun. Right. So it's more of a liability to work with someone like Dr. Luke if you're promoting a message of empowerment and equality and sexuality. Yeah. Like when he produced big energy for Lato or super freaky girl for Nikki Minaj, I don't think anyone raises many eyebrows.

rouse because those aren't artists who are necessarily outspoken about those issues. And the aforementioned songs aren't trying to be empowerment anthems for women. There's just a deep contradiction with his perceived public persona and the kind of work that people are making with them. So Katie Perry is really trying to thread a difficult needle here. Yeah. And I can imagine the desire for a hit was maybe the paramount thing here. Yeah.

Because her last album, 2020's smile, was a critical and commercial flop. The lead single, Daisies, went for a kind of more personal and vulnerable aesthetic. They told me I was out there, tried to knock me down, took those sticks and stone, showed him I could build a house. They tell me that I'm crazy, but I'll never let them change me. So they cover me in Daisies. Give me California, girls. Give me teenage dream. Come on.

I get it. Like, that's not what you want from her persona in some ways. Just like how Joyride is in a certain way a return to form for Kesha musically. Yeah. It seems like Katie's trying to do the same thing. Like, give us that fun recession pop from the late 2000s, early 2010s. Like, give us the hits. Yeah, I mean, I'm not going to say too many bad things about daisies, but I will single out this one line, which really makes me cringe.

When did we all stop believing in magic? I don't know, during the pandemic when the whole world went to shit. Bad timing. Yeah, the timing of her release was not in her favor. And it wasn't all bad. I mean, the track's smile and never really over. Those were certified bops, I would say, but they were also kind of retreads of existing songs. So I think you're right.

Perry is looking for a kind of reboot and a return to pop glory. And perhaps she was willing to sell a bit of her soul and the last of whatever friendship she once had with Kesha in order to do so. L-O-L.L. And while the lead single of her upcoming album, 143, may not be the, The answer she's looking for, we'll have to see what else is in store from Perry. I mean, she said that the music video was a parody. I am ready for a total about phase. Maybe women's world is a parody and we're going to enter a whole new domain.

Like, give me Bjork producing on the rest of this record, avant-garde, noise, symphonic. I want a whole new Katie Perry on the rest of the singles. That is quite a vision you've outlined. And I'm here for it. Okay, okay, okay, one second, hold on. This is Charlie from the future. It turns out just a few hours after we taped this podcast, Katie Perry dropped a new single.

It's called Lifetimes. And it is not the about-face avant-garde surprise that I was hoping for. It really is more of the same. But who knows, maybe the next single could surprise us. But until then, if I'm going to choose between taking a trip to woman's world or going on a joy ride, I know which one I'm going to take. Lull.

Oh, boy. I feel like both of these artists are showing us the pressures of what it is to have a late pop career. You're just constantly required to change, to enter new eras. And so if you don't mind, Nate, I would like to make a pivot for a final segment that looks at this question of what does it mean

to have to constantly make new eras. Let's do it. Immigration may be Donald Trump's signature issue. President Trump is now targeting predominantly democratic cities for ice raids and deportations. Dozens of protesters clashing with immigration and customs enforcement agents in Minneapolis Tuesday. We will begin the process of returning millions and millions of criminal aliens back to the places from which they came. But what we want to do in this space is talk about America and politics beyond the past. current president. So what do most Americans think about deportation and border security, period?

I think that Americans are definitely against the kind of violent displays that we've seen in the street from ICE. When it comes to the question of deportation, the answer is more complicated. My sense is that people want order at the border. They don't like the idea of having no idea who's coming into the United States at any given time. The view on immigration from the bottom up, instead of the top down. That's this week on America Actually. Every Saturday in your audio and video feeds. If there's anyone that knows what it means to have to enter a new era,

it's Taylor Parks. She's an acclaimed songwriter, producer, classically trained pianist, actor, and musical artists in her own right. There are a few artists and songwriters that have worked in as many genres as she has. She's worked with BTS, Janelle Monet, Ariana Grande, Dan and Shea, Panic at the Disco, Anderson Park, Kendrick Lamar, Duo Lipa, and even Kesha. And on Taylor Park's latest album, Many Moons, Many Suns,

she has a single Eras that talks exactly about this idea of having to constantly reshape your identity. I got to sit down with Taylor Parks to talk about what it means to enter a new era. What's up if you grow Taylor Parks? Taylor, what is an era? And era is your moment or your vibe. But this, for me and for this song in particular, it's like, this is this particular moment in my life. What era are you in? I am in my farming era.

I am in my self-care era. And then, like, I am in my, I want to see where my food came from era. I'm in all those other things. And also, I've been working since I was. nine years old, we just turned 30. And so I'm just like, okay, what does that look like? What does happiness look like? And that's been really refreshing, honestly.

Yeah, I was wondering, so the first verse of your song era, it sounds like it's a verse about sustainable farming. Yeah. Obviously, there's some layers of metaphor going on. Yeah, yeah. You're talking about growing food that you want to eat, planting generational seeds. Yeah, yeah.

Stacking up the chips for the ranch. Exactly. So I'm like doing a lot of back and forth. Like when I say stacking up the chips for the ranch, I'm like, it takes money to build out a ranch and to develop, you know, almost 70 acres. So I'm like, okay, I've been working on learning all of the different ways of that. Generational seeds. You know, I'm really referring to saying both actually seeds, but also, you know, something

that my kids, kids, kids, kids can look back on and say, you know, somebody in my family built this and they built it to last. 70 acres, I'm looking at you, there's beautiful greenery behind you. Where are you? And what is this ranch that you speak of? Yes, I'm in Tennessee and I've been developing the sage estate. So it's literally like, I mean, I got my chickens and my guinea fowl and what else? We got goats and, you know, my dogs, of course.

But I'm really into regenerative agriculture, which is just using different ways of saying nature is going to do its thing. How can we not, you know, kill up all of the nutrients? How can we really capture the CO2? But I'm not going to nerd out about that because I can do it forever. Okay. So in verse one, we are planting seeds. We're building this sort of new life that is to last for generations. We're also processing a breakup.

In the chorus, we are in your effort. era, you're in your best era, best me era. Yeah. In the second verse, can you tell me what's going on there? I'm a nine to be's, ripen that new freeze, penhouse pews with a new least, smooth please, none of that shadow shit fool me being qualified like a check in your new scene, throw the glass, so kept the act, she proper advertising class and that the way that I'm ascending wide the track and live, the sending of a llama or it

claps her back. So, I mean, really, you know, when we brought in TK. for the rest of the song, it was just like, there's a lot of different ways to stunt, you know? And depending on your way of stunting, like, oh, I'm back and I'm better, your stunting could be, maybe I just got me a new bag, or, I just got me some land, or whatever that is.

And I wanted to make sure that we showed every aspect of, what is your era? That's really what I'm celebrating. I'm really celebrating the comeback. You know, I say comeback in a way of like, I think you get back to you. Like, there's this weird point growing up. You start off being as you as you could possibly be.

And then you start receiving on the information from the world over the years and years and years and years. And that starts to mold you. But eventually you revert back into the most kind of honest version of yourself, the most pure version of yourself, which is like really, really fun. You've worked in so many different styles, both for yourself and for others. Could you speak to what benefits claiming this idea of being in a new era gives you as an artist and as a person? I think your artistry is a direct reflection of who you are. And when you allow yourself to say, this is what love looks like now, this is what hopefulness looks like now, this is what pain maybe looks like now, whatever that is, when you allow yourself the room to kind of relook at the canvas that you've built over your entire life, and see it from a new perspective, it's really, really healing, for one.

Because, you know, for me, I can listen to every album or mixtape or whatever, every project that I put out and understand exactly where my mindset is for that year. You know, I'm a completely different person in, you know, my many moons, many sun's area than I am in my tailor-made mixtape era where I was like, fuck everything. We're having fun. Like, I was just, you know, I was growing up. And now I'm like, fuck it in a different way. It's I'm gonna be more me than I've ever been before. That is something that I love to bring out in others as well.

When I'm able to do it for other people, it broadens my perspective, you know? Because everybody is in their different eras and when you get to write records with people and listen to their story, I think that that's the biggest thing for me is listening to somebody's story and taking that and saying, okay, I have, you know, 10 seconds to a minute to get the world to relate to this. So you've supported a lot of artists and sort of shifting into new eras. Absolutely. How do you go about helping them find new sounds, new words? When you allow people the space to just think and when you not only just ask questions, but asking the right questions, something as simple as like, how are you to allow for somebody

to just think about the everyday answers just a little bit differently because that's where hit songs are. You know, hit songs are, if you felt that emotion, then so has billions of other people. There's nothing that is original under the sun. Do you feel that there are external pressures that are often asking people to maybe force a new era, a new image onto their music? I think a lot of times, unfortunately, people, one, like. what they know and they don't want that artist to change, but they also will get bored if they

don't change and there's this weird middle ground. So I like to say don't change evolve. You know, everybody's evolving and so is your audience. And that's something I think that we forget a lot of times. You know, if the audience they grew up with you just stayed the same age, but you're growing, I mean, or vice versa, it wouldn't really work. So a lot of the times, You know, it's in the way that you evolve to not scare people away. And unfortunately, we have so much pressure to, okay, reinvent yourself. Every album is a new thing in a new phase or whatever. But that depends on how long you take between that album.

Sometimes you might put out two albums in the same year, and maybe you've only had six months of different experiences since then. How much could you possibly change depending on what's been happening in your life, you know? Do you think that this concept of being asked by external forces to change, is that forced evolution felt equally by different identities? Does it work differently in gender, race, and genre? I absolutely think it does. I think for women artists, we're forced kind of in this thing of you have to look this certain way. This is what a female pop star looks like. And then it also depends on like the race. Like we have our black pop star. or black R&B stars, they're like, okay, we got to hit the choreography, the boom, boom, boom, boom, we have to have a whole thing. We'll just place those as like our Beyonce's and like all those other things.

But then you have a pop star that's like a Billy Island. She's going to get up there and some sweats and jump around. And also great dancer because they're trained. And that's a different idea and a different standard and I think a less stressful route. Different types of stresses. but there's something that's very genuine about that. You're not worried about having a six-pack all the time. And boom-all, like, it's just people fall in love.

You allow for people to fall in love with you. And that's a different type of start too. All of them make the world go around. And then you have this in between. You have the ones that kind of have their new way of doing it, the chaperones and things like that. It's so many different types of ways of being you. And I think that one way,

the fans have allowed that to happen, which is really cool. And one way, it's opened up all of these possibilities. But then once you start breaking it down for, but depending on what type of look you have or what type of audience you have, they kind of force you into this one little lane. You know, we have the singer's song, writing thing. And that makes it very hard. It's such a double-edged sword. And one way, they've opened up all of these possibilities of what does pop look like now. What does pop sound like now? And I think that our charts are more diverse than ever as far as what pop stars look and sound like, which is great.

I want to congratulate you on moving from your I'm the Goat era to I Own Goats era. It's very exciting. The project, many moons, many suns. It's a great lesson. I highly recommend it. Thank you. Taylor, thanks for chat with me.

I really appreciate it. Thank you. This has been awesome. Switched on Pop is produced by Raina Cruz, edited by our church. Chung, engineered by Brandon McFarland, illustrations by Arras Gottlieb, executive produced by Nishat Kurwa, remember of the Vox Media Podcast Network, production of Vulture, which is part of New York Magazine. Magazine at NYMag.com slash pod.

Find us on social media at Switched on Pop and tell us what is your take on the new Katie v. Kesha Drama. We want to hear it. I also want to know, what is your favorite era of your favorite artist? What era are we in, Charlie? We're in our dad bod era. I'm working on that this summer. Put Joyride on your playlist and your workout playlist.

That's a great idea. It'll hit new personal highs, I think. Yeah, definitely. All right, we'll be back again next Tuesday. And until then, thanks for listening. Thanks for listening.