Switched on Pop - Kimbra reflects on a song that we used to know

Episode Date: March 9, 2021

Ten years ago the Australian artist Gotye asked New Zealand musician Kimbra to feature on his song “Somebody I Used To Know.” At the time Kimbra had no idea it was going to be a hit. No wonder—the song lacks the trappings of a conventional pop song. The chorus shows up late and it only repeats once in a track composed of an obscure Brazilian guitar sample and nursery rhyme xylophones.   But this slow burner about opposing sides in a relationship's bitter end found a global audience, ascending to No. 1 in more than 25 countries, and accumulating billions of plays across streaming platforms. In 2013, Prince anointed Gotye and Kimbra the Grammy for record of the year (it won best pop duo/group performance as well). The song created many opportunities for both Gotye and Kimbra, but both chose unconventional paths, resisting the industry’s desire to generate the next hit for hits sake. Reflecting on the song a decade later, Kimbra spoke with Charlie Harding from the podcast Switched On Pop about how this unlikely song inspired her to pursue her singular musical vision, and how it feels to be yet again co-nominated for a 2021 Grammy for her collaboration with Jacob Collier and Tank and The Bangas on “In My Bones.” SONGS DISCUSSED Gotye - Somebody I Used to Know (feat. Kimbra) Luiz Bonfá - Seville  Kimbra - Miracle  Kimbra - 90s Music  Kimbra - Top of the World Jacob Collier - In My Bones  Kimbra - Right Direction Son Lux - Lost It To Trying MORE Check out Kimbra’s course on Vocal Creativity, Arranging, and Production over at Soundfly Listen to our conversation with Jacob Collier Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

If you're tired of endless scrolling to figure out where to eat, same. I'm Stephanie Wu, editor-in-chief of Eater. We've just launched the new-ish and way better Eater app. It has all the restaurants we love, gives you personalized picks wherever you are, and serves up smarter search results just for you. You can find my list of the best places for martinis and fries in New York City. And save your favorite spots, share lists, follow editors, and book right in the app. the Eater app at Eaterapp.com. It's free for iOS users. Welcome to SwitchDun Pop. I'm songwriter Charlie Harding.

And I'm musicologist Nate Sloan. Nate, from time to time, we hop in the musical time machine. And we're going to do that right now. We're going to hop in. Okay, I'm in. They're going to the past. The recent past. Should I buckle my seatbelt? It's advised, but you're going to de-particleize it either way. Here we are. We've arrived. Yeah. It looks pretty similar to 2021. I gotta be real. And there's a song playing in the background. Mm-hmm. Do you remember this one?

Oh, yeah, this rings every bell. This takes me back to a simpler time, a time before I owned a smartphone, before I had 17 gray hairs, a time before our show even existed when we were just fiddling around on bluegrass instruments. That's right.

You said simpler times. That was the name of our band. Oh, yeah. We were in San Francisco, and in the background was Gaultier's somebody that I used to know featuring Kim Bra. Still Slaps.

The song is a hit. It was a hit. It actually, even though this was released in 2011, it won the 2013 Grammy Award for Best Pop Duo Slash Group Performance, as well as record of the year. And frankly, I think this is a very surprising hit. Now that it's 10 years past, I want to revisit it and look at how did this unlikely hit happen and speak with Kim. who after winning this award had all the doors opened her and she chose a fairly unlikely path.

Okay, I'm intrigued. I guess I have maybe taken this song for granted a little bit. So I'm eager to sort of put it under the microscope and figure out why it's such a surprising smash. Okay, so let's re-particleize in the future. Think about it from a little bit of distance. I have to tease. Is that a normal reaction? Just give it. Okay. It passed. Okay. Yeah. Somebody I used to know. All right. So my first statement here is like, this thing shouldn't have been a hit. Why not? What do you have against this, this lovely decade-old duo? Leave Goce alone. Why shouldn't this have been a hit? Well, I think just musically, it's got some bizarre characteristics. Okay. If we just go right to the beginning, the first thing we get is this two-cord little vamp. Like, not a lot going on. And it's this kind of curious sample of Luis Bonfa's Seville. Luis Fonsa, the Brazilian writer and guitarist who composed the soundtrack for Black Orpheus, among other successes.

Is that right? Yeah, I mean, I think maybe the point is like this 1967's a little bit of a deep cut. I didn't get the reference. And this sample, I don't know, it's like I don't immediately get like hot beat coming out of it. Instead, we get this just like, you know, little plunkety, plunkety, clunky. Dunk. Dunck. Yeah, yeah.

Okay. And then enters in a, is it a Marimba? It's not a Maramba. What is it? It's a Glock and scheelefone. And don't ask me what the difference is. Because I know, but I won't tell. It's a secret.

But I do know. I do know to anyone out there wondering, but I won't reveal the difference on air. Whatever it is, what is? what is the melody that the Glock and Spiel slash Alphonse Marimbo slash Toy Piano slash we don't know what it is playing Something like that Listen a little more closely Okay hit me

Yeah that's what I sang But I think what you're getting at here is that it's like kind of childlike It's like something that you would If you walked into my fourth grade music class would hear a bunch of, like, kids playing this, perhaps. And singing maybe Baba Black Sheep directly over it. Whoa. Oh, man, are you a Baba Black Sheep truther with this song?

No. I mean, I don't know, man. I don't want, I'm afraid. I don't want you to dip your toe into that crazy Baba Black Sheep Gochee conspiracy world, man. I don't know if you'll ever come back. That's a new dad. I have no beef with the kids' music. but I'm just saying it feels like a little too silly

to be a pop hit. And I have one more reason why I think this song should never have been the smash that it was. Okay. It is a really long build of Gautier complaining about this relationship. We don't get to a chorus until like way past a minute into the song and we only get two choruses. When, okay, wait, when does the chorus hit?

I need to know. Give me a timestamp. All right. So get this. So first we have, like, verse one comes in after an nice little intro. Yeah. And he's, like, brewing over this old relationship. Totally.

It's very sparse. And he's like, yeah, he sounds a little bitter, for sure. Doesn't sound like he now and then thinks about the relationship. Sounds like maybe from time to time. And then there's, like, a whole instrumental section after the first verse. And we get his second verse. To a certain kind of sadness. That, okay, yeah, that is odd.

I mean, especially now in 2021, you would never get a two verses back to back. That's unheard of. No, no, this is a minute and ten seconds in. So you're like, when does the chorus hit? Let's see, minute 30 seconds. Minute 33 seconds. Minute 33? Okay, that's, yeah, that's wild.

That's a long-ass time until the chorus hits. Slow build. It's an eternity in pop years. Fascinating. And this song has billions of plays across various streaming platforms. I guess we're more patient listeners than we give ourselves credit for. I think it's a beautiful thing. And that's why we should turn this conversation around and argue for, well, of course, this thing is going to be a hit.

Right. Wait, what? You're messing with my brain. It is? Okay, so now it is a sure fire hit. Yeah. You're saying the way he builds your antitimate. over this long opening section, these verses, and then finally gives you the catharsis of the chorus,

that payoff is so powerful that it's the reason you want to keep listening to the song over and over again. That's exactly right. There's real emotional weight in this song, and we feel it from that build from verse to verse and the angst of I'm pissed off that he broke up with me and, gosh, what's going on? Like, why did you have to write me out of your life? when you finally get to the chorus, you're like, oh, that release. It just, it is so powerful.

And the song becomes spirited here. The chords finally change. The vocal register shoots up an octave. We're no longer in that simmering low voice. When we see the music video, Gotea has gone from pursed lips to just like wide mouth, letting it all out. Now, there's actually probably another reason

why this song shouldn't have connected. And Gautier was actually aware of himself. He told the Harold's son that when he wrote this song, he felt like the guy's story felt weak, that there was nothing interesting to add after the second verse. Like, all right, you're bummed that someone broke up with you. That's it. And so he starts experimenting and realizes that,

well, this needs to be a duet. This is going to be a song where you're going to get the other person's point of view. That is where the hero of this song comes in, which is Kimbra. Cool. And then we get this emotional change, this beautiful bridge. I mean, that moment when Kimbra enters is, like, takes my breath away, honestly. And especially the first time you listen, you're not expecting it. Right.

And she's such, such, such an incredible performer. And that's, I mean, that's interesting that Goethe felt the song. was missing something, and that was a pretty astute solution that he struck on. Because it turns the song into something much more relatable and much more universal when you have these dual perspectives. Right. It's not a song about simmering male rage. It's actually about, hey, dude, you were actually the jerk and you need to get over your own

emotions. And that is an amazing payoff when we finally hear her side of the story. And by the way, I also think all of those like nursery rhymey qualities and the xylophone and silly plucky sample makes sense because it's almost as if the music the whole time has been mocking the guy who's been simmering and really we're waiting the whole time to hear the other perspective. I'm curious after reflecting 10 years on, do you have any other favorite moments? I always really loved that line. Have your friends collect your records.

For some reason, the specific. of that. It just really, like, cut like a knife, you know, that idea of like, oh, this was our music collection, and now you're taking back your vinyl. That's like, I don't know. I really relate to that sentiment. Well, I think it's because it is one of those rare songs where perhaps the reason why it's such a success is that it kind of bucks all the rules.

It has these specificities that are, of course, immensely relatable. But this is a duet where the duet. where the duet doesn't happen until three quarters of the way through the song, basically. Funny. And it was such a big hit that it was transformative, not just for us in our young years in 2011, but for the performers as well, Gautier and Kimbra. For both the Grammy winners, they took paths you might not expect. Goetia has largely stayed out of the spotlight, done some really interesting musical archival work even.

And Kimbra, she was a developing artist at this point from New Zealand, and this was a breakout moment for her when she had the opportunity to go down many roads. And I had the opportunity to speak with Kimbra about making that song and what this moment meant for her career. My conversation with Kimbra right after the break. Maria, you have a podcast now and you need to start acting like it. What's the first step as a podcaster?

Well, you have to ask lots of questions. I'm Maria Sharpova and I'm hosting a new podcast called Pretty Tough. Every week, I'm sitting down with trailblazing women at the top of their game to discuss ambition, work ethic, and the ups and downs that come on the path to achieving greatness. I have a few pretty tough questions for you. Okay. Ready? Do not sugarcoat something for me. No, no.

We'll dive into their stories and get valuable insights from top executives, actors, entrepreneurs, and other individuals who have inspired me so much in my own journey. Pretty tough is your front row seat to the women who have been. demonstrated the power in being unapologetic in their pursuits. I hope you'll join us. New episodes drop Wednesdays on YouTube or in your favorite podcast app. Hi, this is Kimbra. So you're at the beginning of your career. Just move from your home, New Zealand to Australia to start working on your album. How did you link up with Gotier? I had a manager who was helping me find the co-producer for my first record.

And this is the moment when I was also listening to a lot of Gautier. He was my favorite artist at the time. And I remember saying to my manager, whoever produced this record, I want to work with them. They did such a great job. It's such a fantastic album. Francois, Gautier's producer, was really excited at the idea, and we began making my first record vows, probably around my 18th birthday.

It comes close to completion around the time that Gaultier asks me to perform on somebody I used to know. My record is probably in mixing at this point or getting close to being put out. I think I'd already put out the single settle down. all of this being self-released through my management company, so there's no label involved at this point. It wasn't until I was 21 that I signed to Warner Brothers.

They were on board from hearing the song settle down, and they heard about me through the internet, the MySpace was the kind of big thing then. And it was funny, you know, to have my career already in an incubation phase for years before meeting Gautier and then a finished record, a record label, signing me all before that hit even came on the scene, So I'm very lucky in that respect because I didn't have to scramble to pull an album together after the success of that song.

It was done and it was ready to go. Take me into the session recording the song. How does it come together? Wally Gautier contacted me through Francois about performing on the song. He made it clear that he had been looking for the right female partner for the song, the right vocalist who would capture the emotion. He wasn't having that much luck. He had tried out a few people, but it didn't. feel right. I mean, Wally has such strong vision. He knows exactly what he's looking for.

So he thought he would try it with me, and he brought his microphone over to my house. I had a studio set up in my bedroom in Melbourne. He set up the mic, and he gave me some insight on the song, what he was wanting to capture from it. He helped me kind of find a place in my own life that I could relate to the lyric and sing it from a place of real authenticity. And I did a take down. He gave me feedback. I did another takedown. Gave me some more thoughts and I'd say maybe, I don't know, like four or five more takes.

I mean, we didn't work that hard on it in terms of overworking the vocal multiple sessions over and over. Something was captured on that day. He went away, continued to work on it. I thought no more about it really. I mean, I was excited that I met Gaultier and got to hang out with him. But the song itself, I thought was

good. I knew it was special, but I honestly did think it was going to be like a track number six ballad on the record. Like, you know, he would have a big song that would be like fast and this would just be the like kind of the slow burner on the record. And I was like, cool, I'm going to be on like a B-side record for Gautier, you know. Um, not to down, you know, downplay the song. It's an amazing song. But I just, I guess it's funny when record label people tell me like, I always saw it coming. I knew it immediately when I heard the song. And I'm like, well, damn, you knew more than me because I didn't. So it is a, it's a very curious hit because yeah,

It's a very slow burn. It's only two choruses. The first chorus takes over a minute to get to. It's not the thing that you expect is going to be the breakout smash kind of thing. It's also unusual in that as the featured artist on the track, you come in very late to the song, but you're also the hero of the song. The song could not happen without your verse because that is the entire payoff of the experience of it. Yeah. That is wild.

Yeah. It was really cool when I got the vocal sent back and, got to hear it as an entire piece. And I think at that point I started to feel like this might be a special moment. But I still never really had any idea, even on the day of the music video. I still didn't know what it was going to be at that point. And neither did Wally. We really had no idea. And it sounds cliche, but it's the truth. What was the inflection point where all the sudden things start to change, where this is not just feeling like a B-side to you, but something is happening here.

It's hard to really recall the exact moment. I was on tour so heavily over the time that the song was blowing up. I was all over the world doing tours with not only Gaultier, but then a world tour with Foster the People and my own shows all around America and Europe. So I think the moments where it would hit me where I would have time to digest it were maybe coming through the gates at Heathrow and being welcomed into,

London and thinking to myself, we have a number one song in this country right now. You know, we're here, we've just landed, and our song is top of the charts, and no one knows, we're just walking through the airport, and the song is playing in the airport, and we're just, you know, in moments like that where you get in a cab in Indonesia or something and it's playing, or you hear a remix, you know, someone's saying from India that they're hearing it. It's a slow burn of realizing the phenomena it's become. It wasn't like a moment. I mean, I guess the Grammys would have been that moment that I realized it had connected so widely. Do you remember where you were for the Grammy nomination announcement?

Oh, man. You know, I wish that I could. This is one of the saddest parts of coming to my age in this career now is when you look back, you don't remember a lot. I don't know if it's different for different artists, but I have a sadness that I didn't write down more. Or maybe I did. Maybe I'll need to go back to journals.

look at it, but I think life as a 20-something-year-old is so full of so much drama and so much, you know, there's just so much going on in your romantic life. There's, you know, my career was taking off, but I was kind of hesitant to even let that in because I'm very weary of success. I know that it can be gone in a heartbeat. So I guess I kind of resisted it a lot and I was being told to move to L.A. and had a lot of pressure to kind of be the next big thing. And I, I felt a new rebellious spirit in me where I kind of didn't want to follow all the rules that everyone had laid out. And I don't know if I haven't blocked out parts of it.

I mean, the day that I was nominated for a Grammy with Gautier was an amazing day. But I can't tell you where I was because I just don't have that kind of memory for those things. It's blurry. And it really makes me realize just how busy I was and how probably unnatural it was to be that, not burnt out, but kind of moving that fast through the world. You certainly must remember going to the Grammys. What was your experience there and what happened?

I was very excited to be in the same room as my idols. I mean, it's a very crazy experience to look around and, you know, in the same row that you're sitting in, be looking down at Beyonce, Adele, Jennifer Lopez. I mean, they were all sitting together. Rihanna, behind me is Brittany Howard from Alabama. Shakes in front of me is Frank Ocean. I mean, it's just an incredible moment to just be in the presence of people that made you want to do what you do. I had no expectations of winning the

Grammy. I thought it was incredible that we were nominated. We hadn't been asked to perform at the Grammys, and I kind of took that as a sign that maybe we wouldn't win it, you know? I just thought it's too crazy that we would win it. And I think he felt the same. I think we were both there to just enjoy the moment, you know. We didn't expect to win. We were just excited that we were going to be part of the event. Do you recall the moment of the reading of the names in that like particular 30 seconds? Now that part I remember very well. What were you feeling? So Prince walked to the stage and I mean, I just can't explain what it's like to see someone who's had such a huge influence on your life standing in front of you with an envelope in their hands that contains your name, you know?

They might say your name. Well, they're going to say your name because you're nominated, you know. And so that moment of the nominations being called out was very unreal, I guess. You know, we had Janelle Monet, Frank Ocean, Taylor Swift, Kelly Clarkson. I mean, there was, yeah, the Black Keys, a lot of incredible people were all nominated for the same award. And then it comes our name. And then he says, I love this song. And the Grammy goes too.

I love this song. Everyone's like, what is he talking about? And then he says, somebody that I used to know by Gautier and Kimbra. Somebody that I used to know, Gautier. Yeah, it's kind of a blur from there. All I remember is just being on stage and just gazing at him and kind of looking out at the audience and seeing a standing ovation of everyone in that room. Beyonce.

I mean, it was just incredible for a girl from Hamilton, New Zealand. I got on the mic to thank Wally, of course, for helping me be a little. part of the song. And then I just had to say thank you to Prince. I feel unbelievably blessed to have been a part of the song and I couldn't have shared it with someone more amazing than this artist that you see here. And thank you to Prince. He was the man that inspired both of us to even start doing what we're doing. So yeah, I felt really good about that. I didn't really feel like doing a long list of people to thank. It just seemed clear to me. It was about those two men on stage for me. So, yeah. not understand about what happens behind the scenes after that award? I know a lot happens and I think

I was aware of it but one thing to understand is I am so invested in the work that I do that I am often thinking primarily about that. So the show that I've got to do that night, the show that I've got to do tomorrow, the album that I'm working on. I was aware that things were changing that there was a buzz around my name now and there was the ability for me to reach out to people and have them know who I was immediately and the kind of notoriety it brings. But I also didn't get too caught up in it. I didn't feel like it served me at the time to let that impact the work that I was doing. I always felt that the work was the most important thing, especially if I wanted to have a career beyond somebody that I used to know. It was very important that I put a lot of time and energy

into my own records. And I had an opportunity with the second album to be quite bold and quite daring because I knew that I would have the reach that I didn't have before. I could reach out to people that maybe wouldn't have clicked the email in the inbox, you know, unless they'd seen that they knew the name. And so that gave me a lot of, I guess I used that notoriety from the Grammys to kind of pull together a really crazy cast of people from my second record. I think the main thing I felt was an immense pressure to follow it up. And that's like what, you know, that's what every record label wants.

You know, I was on the Warner Brothers roster. Now it's time to put out a hit that's going to blow that one out of the water and become the next big thing. And that's not necessarily what I had planned for my career. I mean, I was ready to have a sustainable, long career. Success came, that's great. But the idea of just making a record with a hit just because I had had a hit and that was the next thing to do, it really didn't inspire me very much and it was a lot of pressure. So I kind of decided to do it my way

And that really consisted of telling my A&Rs at Warner Brothers to trust me And that I want to make a record with Rich Costi Who had produced bands like Interpol, Mew, the Mars Volta, Big Mixer for Diplo and just a lot of crazy stuff They said, trust me, like let me make a record I really want to make Let me bring in Matthew Bellamy from Muse, Mark Foster from Foster the People, Thundercat, Daniel Johns from Silverchair.

Trust me with these people, I think I can make something special. I hoped there would be a single on there or something of commercial success, but I didn't go into it with that mindset. I went into it with the mindset that anything is possible. And that's something that I learned from winning the Grammy, because if a girl from New Zealand can come to New Australia, be asked by someone to sing the second verse of a song, have no idea that it's going to blow up

and then have it hit number one in 18 countries and win a Grammy by her idol prints for a song, that doesn't even have a chorus until after two minutes and is the most unlikely pop song in the world, well, then you bet that I'm going to get experimental with this next record, because that's the most experimental story I've ever heard. It's like the most unlikely hit becomes, like,

it just made me dream bigger, and it made me think the possibilities are endless. Like, why would I go and make a cookie cutter hit after that when what I just had success with was something so obscure? Like, I just believed in the power of possibility after that moment. Is there a song off that record, the Golden Echo,

that you feel captures that vibe that you're going for? I feel like every single song on that record is a microcosm of that idea of me like embracing pop, but also like gut punching it too and being like, no, I'm going to do it my way. Yeah, I mean, when you have Thundercat playing bass for you, there's no way that it's going to stay simple. Yeah, I think the song that Daniel Johns from Silverchair,

myself and Thundercat made together is a really good example of my kind of like anti-pop pop. But also, I don't know, I mean, we made a really strange song on that album called 90s music, which was the first single of The Golden Echo, I guess, so it was probably the furthest thing that I could

ever do from somebody I used to know. And, you know, I'm sure people will say that that was commercially the wrong choice, but I don't know, I love that the fan base I have followed me through all my weird twists and turns. I think it's really special. It's like that to me is love, you know, when a fan base lets an artist just do what they're excited about and they follow them through it. It seems to be part of your musical mission. I was reading

an interview that you did with Junkie back in the day and you said that you believe that pop music shouldn't dumb people down. You think that pop should make people smarter. Prince did that. We don't even realize how deep Prince was going on those records. The greats always do that. They're always sneaking in things that the mystics have been saying forever, but they do it in a way that is only noticeable on multiple listens. And that's great pop when you can go back to it time and time again. Pop that makes you dumber is often stuff that actually doesn't get better with multiple listens. It kind of gets more and more annoying. And, you know, I have no problem with various types of music, but I do believe that the music industry and the pop industry sells people short in

terms of what it assumes of them. It assumes that people can only hang on to a song with only two chords and repetitive melody that goes a hundred times over. And like, it's just not true. Like, people can wait two minutes for a chorus. They can get invested in a storyline and not need side-chaining bass and auto-tune to get engaged. Like, they can find ways to deep investment in music through other forms.

And somebody I used to know is a perfect example of that. In 2018, you put out a record called Primal Heart, and one of the singles off of that is Top of the World, where it seems you're nodding to those pressures, but also maybe even toying with them. Yeah, Top of the World kind of flirts with both ideas, you know. There is an intoxication to fame and success and wealth. I don't know. In many ways, I had a figure like Donald Trump in my head when I was making that song. I thought, like, look at this person who started.

with, you know, probably intentions to make some sort of difference, whether or not that is, you know, for better for worse, but it gets higher and higher on their own story and wind up at the top and realize there's no one else there. It's as lonely as fuck up there. And top of the world was for me an interesting meditation on other artists' careers or other politician's careers, you know, and also a little bit of my own that, you know, there isn't so much at the top that is more important than what you find just in the ordinary movements of life. I haven't experienced, you know, the kind of fame that some people have and success and notoriety. And, you know, I consider my experience a fraction of that. But it's enough to kind of get a gauge on how the music industry can change when there's that kind of fame and, of course, you know, money involved.

I'm still wrestling with it. I still don't know how I feel about it. I've had a lot of learning to do over that time. It was my 20s. My 20s, I was part of a number one song, and that's already a really tough time for someone on top of that to have the pressure of that kind of success. It was a lot, but I feel lucky that it didn't make me collapse

and give in to pressure and do something I didn't want to do, but rather it pushed me to do what I wanted to do tenfold. because I had seen how it had worked for Gautier, and I felt this courage from being affirmed on the world level like that to be like, look, let me just do my thing. They obviously connect with my voice. Let me just go where I'm feeling like I want to go. What made you recognize that internal tension

of both seeing the fame monster and other people, witnessing it within yourself, feeling like that song needed to be put out into the world? Where did that come from? Again, I witnessed it in others before I saw it in myself, and that's often how my writing works. I'll write about it instead of another person, and then as I'm writing it, I realize,

oh, all these things live inside me. And that's why we connect through music because we see ourselves in the song. The desire to win, the desire to be on top is pretty human. And when you are given that place of achievement, it can be intoxicating. And I actively fought against that, as it was happening to me, even to the point where I moved to a farm in Los Angeles in Silver Lake,

right by the reservoir. I lived with five sheep and goats and 20 free-range chickens, and I had an outdoor kitchen. And I just had a very strange hippie life in L.A. days after I'd received the Grammy, I moved to this place. I mean, I was doing interviews from there, and they're like, are you living in Hollywood now? You must be living, got a nice place in Sunset Boulevard. I'm like, no, I'm living on a farm. She put her down. Yeah.

Like, I'm feeding the chickens right now. I don't know. It just was so much more interesting to me to live on the sidelines of it than live inside it. Yeah, the intoxication of notoriety that is talked about in top of the world is really just a longing to be known, a longing to be heard. And a longing to, you know, I empathize with the character in top of the world. I don't see her as just a throwaway superficial character. I see her as someone who is very human, and we deny that that's, I mean,

I think that's the Instagram culture too. Like we're hungry for validation. We're hungry for the likes and the followers. And I'm on top of the world, you know, it's an idea that is both energizing and fantastically inspiring to be on top. You know, it's amazing. We've all had moments of feeling like we've reached a pinnacle

and now careers or our world. But it's also, it is threatening to the things, that are most important to us. And I wanted to convey that in the song, that we can't forget where we come from. And it can be very lonely, too, to become that isolated by your work that no one really knows how to get in anymore

because you've created a bubble that is so impenetrable. I feel like it comes across musically in that, A, you're exceptional at modulating your voice into these sort of like other caricatures. Thank you. And simultaneously, the production choices that you make, they're a little winky in that, like, it's clear that you're sort of like pointing to different genres of pop, sort of deviating from other things that you might be doing. But it's still you. So there is that, I think, I'm hearing that internal tension in how you're singing, in how you're producing it.

Yeah. It's, you're in it, no matter how much it might be thinking about some other characters. Yeah, that's right. I mean, the lyric in there that always hits me hottest is they built me up to be beaten. I mean, I always think about that with the world of pop success. You know, it's like people get shot to the top, but then, you know, they just turn it over, right? And it's just a new person and it's just, and it's like, I always wanted to be an artist that had longevity and stuck around, you know. But that idea of being built up to be beaten was, I found that resonant at the time because people also like to rip people apart when they get success and when they, you know, and that's a whole other side of,

success that doesn't get talked about enough as well is just how hard it can be to be analyzed for one facet that you show the world, which is only one side of who you are, right? And yeah, so there's a whole lot of stuff in there. And I often deal with my emotions by creating a character where I can project everything onto that character. And some of it's true and some of it's made up, you know, but it's like a way that I can get out all my emotions on that topic. This dialogue on fame kind of comes full circle this year in that you are once again nominated for a Grammy through your collaboration on Jacob Collier's record, Jesse Volume 3. You have this song called In My Bones, also with Tank and the Bangas. This is a song I really enjoy. In fact, it's a record that I put on in the evening sometimes when my kiddo's eating dinner.

He goes bonkers. And also, you know, full circle here, it has such nods to Prince and his styles of production. Tell me about the creation of In My Bones. How did this song come together in this collaboration? Jacob and I met probably over the internet. I meet most people that way, just like maybe I talk about their music online or they talk about mine. And then we reach out and mutually fan girl over each other. So I think that's how it happened.

And he'd been very vocal about having studied my record. I mean, not just listen to them, but he could pick out tracks from vows, you know, even down to the second, tell me the part that he liked. I mean, it was just incredible to have someone be that inspired and moved by the music and someone of his caliber and such a musical prodigy. So he asked me, you know, we have to make a song together. Can you meet me in the studio and let's do it? I was living in New York at the time. He came out especially to meet me there. We jumped in the studio.

It was actually similar to the Gordia collaboration in the sense that, like, that's a show. happened in half a day, you know? It was like in and out. How in the world, though, because I've never heard, I mean, the kind of harmonic movement and complexity. Yeah, but that dude, that dude hears it all. He's already got it in his head. So he's just singing it to you. He's just, sing this, uh, uh, sing this, uh, sing this. He's just giving me to sing it all, and then he puts it all together. It's like a very amazing thing to watch. And I brought my whole spaceship of gadgets, my chaos pads and loopers, and I sit up and would kind of just play ideas for him and he would sort of sample parts of me and that's how we got a mood going.

And then, you know, we started jumping into the lyric and we're sitting on the ground together humming and hying and writing in notebooks. And, you know, we're just kind of going where the music takes us. And it's not a realized idea yet. It's a sort of, it's fragments of ideas that are all running around and haven't found their relationship to each other yet. And that's what Jacob did after I left the studio. Of course, he went away and made it all into this work of art and sent it back.

And I was like, oh, Lord, this is. this is something else. So yeah, it's a really, it's a really fun one. And he's turned out to be one of my closest friends in the industry these days. So that's also really nice when, yeah, when that happens. When talent sees talent, we got to speak with him a few months back. And, you know, it's always delightful when you talk to someone who happens to be, maybe even nicer than they are talented. I know. His talent is beyond. I know. It's ridiculous, right? I imagine that your experience of finding about the Grammy nomination this time around, and your expectations around it must be very different multiple years later.

How are you feeling about this? Man, I think you'll get it. I mean, that's my feeling. But I mean, Jacob is such a force. I like, I'm such a menor of his talent. I don't know. I mean, I also am like, I can feel like he might get it, but I'm also like, I still have no idea.

Like, the music industry baffles me. Like, I'm like, I just, you know what I mean? But in a good way, like, in the way where I'm like, huh, I don't know, anything's possible. So it's kind of like my expectations are different now to how they were back then. I'm sort of like, yeah, I think things are changing and music is changing and people's desires and music are changing. And I'm super stoked to be up for another Grammy with him.

It's like, yeah, it's beautiful that the work that I continue to do with my friends, you know, with the people that I love is resonating with a larger audience. And I'm just, you know, super grateful. And it inspires me to work harder on my own. own records as well. It gives me impetus, you know? You seem super level-headed about it. It's like, whatever happens happens is kind of what I'm gathering. Yeah, whatever happens happens. I mean, the Grammys are cool, but, you know, we all know that's an amazing record whether or not it wins. You know what I mean? So I think, yeah, I've always seen awards as kind of like, they're cool,

but they don't become the bearers of truth on whether something has value. It's a not unproblematic institution and so there's nothing more validating and yet it's also problematic enough that we can't put that much weight into it exactly yeah you get it so a lot has changed for you over your career including i'm thinking of a song of yours called right direction they say all roads lead back to home they say all roads lead back to home but that ain't where i want to want to go and being worried about running in the right direction. We're in this very strange moment where you've been led back to home, one of the few places on earth that has handled the pandemic relatively well and where life is relatively normal

despite being in lockdown at this exact moment. How did it feel to make the choice to move back home? What led you there? What's going on? Well, to be clear, I haven't moved back home. I'm here for a TV show that I'm. doing out here mentoring young artists who are working to be the next music sensation from New Zealand. I am here for another three weeks. Then I return back to New York to spend time with

my loved ones and work on my album campaign for my fourth record. We're shooting the front cover. Then I return back to New Zealand for another round of shooting for this TV show. That means quarantining again for two weeks. So that'll be a month in quarantine all up. I then return back on June 3rd to New York, which is still my home. I live upstate now. Yeah. Oh, lovely. Yeah, but New Zealand will always be home home.

And I think that's what you're getting at is, you know, that's the place that I always come back to. And yeah, they say old roads lead back to home. That's not where I want to go, where I want to be. I think I've been running a long time, you know, running hopefully in the right direction. I mean, we're all guessing, you know. And I think it's been beautiful to return home now and be an adult. I left when I was so young. and to kind of see everything with clear eyes and reconnect with friends that I had in high school

and now we're, you know, it's so much years later, a lot has changed. This pandemic has done a lot for me. It's shaken us all, you know. It's really reminded us of the fragility of life. And I do feel like a different artist coming out the other side. And, you know, getting to come back home for a period of time has been part of that incubation and rejuvenation before I get. back into it all for my fourth record. You said that you're working on your fourth record.

Are you ready to share what some of your vision for that music is going to be? I'm so excited about the fourth record. I wish I could just put it out tomorrow. We live in a pretty crazy world, you know, and nothing is as it was. So the release date is unsure, you know, I don't know, but I know I will be putting new music out this year, plan on releasing a music video and a song, I sing. a song, a single. So I'm really excited to at least just share something and hopefully the record

will be out, you know, certainly by next year. So, you know, next year. Let's just say that to be safe. Back on the road in October, provided that COVID doesn't get worse. I, you know, plan on being back on the road in an even fuller capacity in January. So, you know, a lot is going to be changing again, back into that lifestyle again, which will be strange. But I've never felt more motivated, inspired, and invested in the music I'm making than this record. I'm co-producing it with Ryan Lott from Sunlux. I don't know if you're familiar with that band. They're amazing.

Yeah, so it sounds a lot like me and him. When people are like, what does it sound like? I'm like, it sounds like Kimberra and Sunlux. Which I think it's going to be cool. I think people are going to dig it. And it's so fun to work with someone who doesn't do, like, super bang and pop music, but like make him do bang and pop music, but with his palette. You know what I mean? It's like, I've always wanted to hear that weirdo, like, do a pop album.

And it's exactly what I was hoping it would be. It's like really strange industrial sounds and like ethereal, beautiful cinematic landscapes, but pop songs, you know? And I can't wait for people to hear it. I don't think it sounds like anything else right now. So it's exciting, man. That sounds just about right for a Kimber record. I'd be surprised if you brought in a only the biggest pop songwriters in the world to work with. You got to pull on the most experimental person to meet somewhere in the middle. Yeah. In addition, you're launching a course with Soundfly.

You're very thoughtful about production, gear, composition. You just have a lot of detail. You're sharing a course with people coming up. Could you speak to that? Yeah, I'm super excited about this course. It's focused mainly on vocals as an instrument. So, you know, from the very inception of that idea, which is in the body, you know, you sing with the body. And we talk a bit about that to how to produce your vocals, to how to mix your vocals and how to use hardware and software to really get the most out of your instrument.

And I am really passionate about production and sharing my knowledge as an engineer and producer just because I think we need more woman in these fields. But also because it's so inherent to what I do. It's not just like, oh, I have this side hustle. I also like to engineer. It's like, no, I write as I produce. Like, I mix as I write. You know, it is all a holistic. There is no compartmentalization for me

between those things. They're happening consecutively. So for me, to share that part of my process is to share my songwriting process and to share how I even perform and how even the way I use my hands is because I'm visual and I'm thinking of waveforms

and I'm thinking of EQ and frequency and this helps me to get in that mindset to use my hands. So, yeah, it's fun to share that stuff, and I'm excited to see what people take away from it. It has been an absolute joy speaking with you. You too. You too. You too.

Absolutely. It was great to talk to you, too. Switched on Pop is produced by Bridget Armistrong, Nate Sloan, and me, Charlie Harding. We're engineered by Brandon McFarland and this week by Bill Lance, illustrations by Iris Gottlieb and social media and social media and social media and social media and social media and social media. And social media and social media and social media. on Instagram and Twitter. We're posting articles. We're posting videos. We're posting highlights from our conversations. There's a lot of fun stuff that you're going to want to check out. And we love hearing from you. So come find us there and hit us up. One of the things you'll be hearing this week is a course that

Kimberra is doing with Soundfly. If you want to get into the depths of vocal production and you make music yourself, go check it out. We'll post a link to it in our show notes as well as on social media. And next week, we're going to be back with our favorite moments from the 2021 Grammys. What happened, what went down, everything you need to know. Check it out. Next Tuesday. Switched on Pop. Until then. Thanks for listening. Thanks for listening. Attention, Spotify. Has arrived on the new Good Girl Jasmine Absolute of Carolina Herrera. A fragrance intense with character gourmet and addictive. Imagine a jasmine emvolventy, caramelized, and tonka-tosted. A combination that seduce

from the first instant and leave a wea Google Jasmine Absolute hypnotica irresistible discover it and let you know it's

emblever for susentia