Switched on Pop - Lily Allen and Tate McRae revive the revenge anthem

Episode Date: November 4, 2025

They say the best revenge is living well, but if you’re a pop star going through a break up, that’s false. The best revenge is releasing a searing scorched-earth revenge banger that calls out your ex and, ideally, rides that vengeance to the top of the Billboard charts. That’s exactly what Tate McRae and Lily Allen have done in the wake of their high profile break ups; McRae with the track “TIT FOR TAT”  and Allen with an entire album, West End Girl. On this episode of Switched On Pop, Charlie and Nate use these tracks to explore the art of the revenge song. Songs Discussed Tate McRae – TIT FOR TAT The Kid LAROI, Justin Bieber – STAY Angelo Badalamenti – Twin Peaks Theme Fleetwood Mac – Dreams Fleetwood Mac – Go Your Own Way Bizarrap, Shakira – Shakira: Bzrp Music Sessions, Vol. 53 Lilly Allen — West End Girl, Madeline, 4chanstan Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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It's free for iOS users. Welcome to Switchedon Pop. I'm musicologist Nate Sloan. And I'm songwriter Charlie Harding. Charlie, you know what they say is the best revenge, right? Revenge? I don't know. What's the best revenge?

Charlie, come on. What's the best revenge? The best revenge is... Payback? I'm failing. The best revenge is living well, Charlie. Living well. I was not a good.

expecting that. Yeah. You've never heard that phrase? I don't have too many crocheted pillows around my house with nice little sayings. I'm shook that this is news to you and potentially will derail our entire conversation. But nevertheless, tell me what that means to you. The best revenge is living well. Revenge is best dosed out in not paying attention to whoever wronged you and instead just living your life however you need to. Just go on. Have a great time. And that's probably good advice, but not if you're a pop star going through a breakup. Makes terrible pop songs. In this situation, the best revenge is releasing a searing, scorched earth revenge banger that calls out your ex

and ideally rides that vengeance to the top of the billboard charts. And if it is intertwined with an architectural digest video of your former home together, even better. Rather than living well, this is the tack that two pop stars, Tate McCray, and Lily Allen, in the wake of their high-profile breakups. McCrae with her track, Tit for Tatt, and Alan with an entire album called West End Girl. I was curious which clip you would play there

because that is probably the most tame moment on the entire album. Well, I figured I'd warm us up with the title phrase, Charlie, and we'll get to the more scathing aspects of that album. She's a Brit, we'll have tea later. Today I want to use these two tracks to explore the art of the revenge track. Ask what makes a great revenge song and try and figure out why we can't stop listening to these songs. This is such fun music.

You know, when I spoke with Ash and Phineas a few weeks back, Phineas said, all pop music right now is rap beef. Doesn't have to be rap. It can be pop music. It can be R&B. It can be country. but the things that are hitting, they got to have some beef. And breakup beef makes great pop music.

Let's start with the very beginning of Tate McCrae's Tit for Tad. Okay. We get a little spoken moment right into the chorus. In fact, Charlie, that spoken moment at the start is the chorus. Oh. And then it goes into another chorus. It's a double chorus to start this song. Okay, fun.

Double chorus. Not very common. But Tate McCray loves to start with a chorus. chorus. Get right into it. Love it. I feel like this is exactly the kind of extra touch that we've come to expect from the Canadian singer who burst onto the scene in 2020 with a lot of attitude. Oh yeah. A lot of sexy hockey gear and some very athletic dance moves. Quite. Since then she's released three studio albums, including 2025s So Close to What, which we covered back at the beginning of the year. So close to what? But tit for tat was not on that album. It's a.

stand alone single that she actually recorded backstage in Dallas while on tour. And as you can tell from the very start of this track, this is all about throwing your ex under the bus. It's not even metaphorical. There's literally a touring bus outside. A literal tour bus. Wow, you're messy. I love how scathing this line is. In the heat of it all, I always took your side. It's a shame you're out here trying to make it messy. Wow. You're messy. Damn.

Little identity rhyme there where you take the same word and rhyme with itself. It's plain. It's simple. It's cruel. Exactly. It's more savage because she's like, you're not even worthy of a rhyme. You don't even deserve a rhyme. I'm just going to restate how messy you are.

Yeah. There's something very clean about that. But some of the most pointed vitriol arrives in the bridge of tip. for tap. That looks like it really hurts. That bruise on your ego. Oh, I like that line. That's a good line. It's a really good line. And then when we return to the chorus, we get this really nice sound effect. Oh, not even that. The broken glass is what I'm referring to, Charlie. Oh, listen again. Oh, okay. Sorry.

Obviously, my first connotation is broken glass at the end of a marriage ceremony. What is this broken glass? It's got to be a reference to the long tradition of breakup songs involving breaking your lover's car windows. I'm talking about, let's see, the music video for Beyonce's. lemonade Hold up, right? Hold up, exactly. Yeah.

Where she systematically bashes and headlights there for the baseball bat while wearing a striking yellow dress. Don't love you like I love you.

Slow down. They don't love you like I love you. Back up. They don't love you. Step down. They don't love it. What else? We've got

Carrie Underwood Before he cheats. Exactly. There it is. But the chay d'oeuvre of this subgenre has to be Jasmine Sullivan's Bust Your Windows. Oh, a little tango. Yes. I love that instead of using glass, instead they use a set of chimes, which kind of has the feeling of broken glass.

I do want to hear the tit for tat version, though, one more time. Okay, listen, I love the read of your smashed car window. However, that sounds like a broken champagne flute, a wine glass. It's a little lighter. And I feel like I hear this little sound, which feels like a wine glass being thrown across the room and shattering. That's what I'm hearing. Sounds like you're intimately familiar with some of these sounds, Charlie. I don't know what you're going on in your personal life.

But I do agree with your assessment now that we're listening to it together. But nevertheless, I think it's still fair to say this is referencing. a deep tradition of breaking things in a breakup song. Very fun. And now I think we need to check out the one part of the song we haven't listened to yet, which is the pre-chorus. If we pay attention to the lyrics, there's an important clue about the motivation behind this particular track.

Song for song, yeah. What's that about, Charlie? There's another song out there is what I'm hearing. That's right, Charles. This is not just a revenge track. It's a response track as well. It's time we reveal the X in question, the tat to this tit. It's, sorry.

The tit to this tat. Yeah, the tit to this tat. So who is the tit? It is the kid Leroy, the Australian singer who's best known, certainly I think, for his hit, Stay featuring Justin Bieber. I do the same thing I told you that I never would I told you I changed

Even when I knew I never could I know that I can't I find nobody else as good as you I need you to stay I need you to stay Co-written by last week's guest on Switched on Pop None other than

Charlie Puth Yes So the kid Leroy and Tate McCray They were in a relationship That ended in July 2025 But before that they actually collaborated together.

Tate featured Leroy, if I'm allowed to call him that, on her track, I Know Love, a track that celebrates the almost inebriating quality of the love that they have for each other. But Charlie, that golden period did not last. Things ended between them. And what did the kid Leroy do after this breakup? Well, he released a song called A. A Cold Play. And do you think he was the bigger man acting above it all?

No, he blamed Tate McCrae for the breakup. It's not my fault. I tried to fix you. I'm going to try to. And I couldn't. You're beyond hope. That is so bold. I think that's why this song is called A Cold Play because of this central line, Fix You, Fix You,

which is the title of a Coldplay song. A cold play. Oh, I hate that. I'm sorry. That's so obnoxious. That's okay, Charlie. I have one more piece of information about this song that I don't know what to do with. Okay. What happens at the very beginning of this track, a cold play? When I heard this, there was something about those opening chords that was shockingly familiar. Oh. And it took me a second, but I'm pretty sure these are the exact.

same chords that we hear at the start of the theme to the television show created by David Lynch, twin peaks composed by Angelo Baddimenti. Yep, same thing.

F major with a ninth on top. Down to a D minor with the ninth on top. Nobody gets to own the move from the one to the six but I hear there's a similar vibe.

It's the tempo, it's the kind of eerie quality. It's the appoggiatura in the melody. Again, I don't know what to do with this information, but I need to get it off my chest. So much of David Lynch's process was through meditation, things that would come to him in a meditative state would end up going into his films, even when he wouldn't quite know

what they meant. There were sort of these dangling, sort of ghastly things that we would have to infer from. So I think your chordal analysis and this connection is fairly Lynchian. Well, you might think that a song that references both David Lynch and Coldplay would be hard to top, and yet I have a strong suspicion that Tate McCray has won this revenge round. Wow. Why are you changing up the narrative to write? Wow. Why are you changing up the narrative to write? No, I can't do this. You're making me do this. If you want to fight, and then we get to the pre-chorus, let's go song for song. I love this. It's like, I don't want to do this. I don't want to get in the mud with you. But I guess if I have to, I'll write a song about it, release it, and watch it go to currently number 29 on the Billboard charts.

But that's your fault. You made me do that. You made me do that. You made me. do that. Your song, by the way, never charted. But my revenge track does. I didn't want to do it, but I, but you made me. Okay. Can I get conspiratorial? Please. What do you make of the very first time she says the chorus line right now, I'm not even about you in that spoken intro. Can you play that? You're going to have to instap me with this one, because I'm not, I'm not hearing anything here, Charles. The way that she says, I'm not even about you, sounds so similar to the phrasing, I told you that I never would. The song, Stay. Am I crazy?

Play it back to back. Insert X-Files theme. Here's Tate. And which line in stay is it? Just the first line. Okay, so here's Tate. Right now I'm not even about you. you and Kidleroy i do the same thing i thought you that i never would i mean there's a similar

da da da da da da da da that that is that da da da da da da da told you that i never would not even about you okay there's a little there's a little grain of truth to your q anonon moment here what does it mean well it means if the kidleroy song was about how i need you to stay tate mccray is saying I'm going to take that melody, but I'm going to flip it and say, I'm not even about you anymore. You need to get out of here. That's what I'm hearing. Okay. That's cool.

That's cool, Chuck. You did it. Thanks. The successive tit for tat shouldn't be surprising because as listeners, we can't get enough of a revenge song. Especially, Charlie, when the recipient of the song's invective is another celebrity. Always. Take an example we've talked about on the show before, Fleetwood Mac. Yeah.

Their album rumors. It's a musical masterpiece, but certainly we're drawn to it because of the drama that was happening internally with the band, including two takes on a revenge song. Well, maybe revenge is a strong word to describe these songs, but certainly there's a healthy bit of critique in Stevie Nix's dreams. That track was directed at her former lover and band. My friendmate Lindsay Buckingham, who came right back with his own, go your own way. Rumors is the breakup Bible. And I just feel like I have to plug that our friend, Richard Cash Your Way of Song Exploder, just brought them back together to do an episode about their song Frozen Love in dialogue.

So, hey, love can come back around. It certainly can, but I doubt it will in the case of one of the more remarkable revenge songs of recent vintage, Shakira's Beezerap Sessions number 53, which she released in the aftermath of her much publicized split with soccer star Gerard Piquet. A she wolf like me isn't for guys like you. For guys like you, I was out of your league. That's why you're with someone just like you. Ouch.

But in 2025, it feels like there's something in the water because Tate's revenge. track is not the only one that's taking off this year. In fact, we have a whole revenge album that takes no prisoners. And we'll listen to that right after the break. Maria, you have a podcast now and you need to start acting like it. What's the first step as a podcaster? Well, you have to ask lots of questions. I'm Maria Sharpova and I'm hosting a new podcast called Pretty Tough. Every week, I'm sitting down with trailblazing women at the top of their game to discuss ambition

work ethic, and the ups and downs that come on the path to achieving greatness. I have a few pretty tough questions for you. Okay. Ready? Ready. Do not sugarcoat something for me. No, no. We'll dive into their stories and get valuable insights from top executives,

actors, entrepreneurs, and other individuals who have inspired me so much in my own journey. Pretty tough is your front row seat to the women who have demonstrated the power in being unapologetic in their pursuits. I hope you'll join us. Drop Wednesdays on YouTube or in your favorite podcast app. Lily Allen just dropped West End Girl, an album that explores betrayal and heartbreak. And like was the case with Tate McCray, this revenge album involves another celebrity. The actor David Harbour, probably best known for being the sheriff and Stranger Things,

to whom Allen was married for four years before getting divorced in the last few months. Lily Allen has had a bunch of hits in the UK, but West End Girl might be her biggest splash yet over here in the U.S. Certainly in a long time anyway. None of its songs have made it onto the Billboard charts yet, at least, but everyone seems to be talking about this album because of the way it features both her raw pain and her meticulous burns. There's nothing quite like this one. I mean, we've heard plenty of breakup albums in the history of pop music. This is like a chronological list of events.

Like, this happened, this happened, this happened. The whole thing is a novel of their relationship. It's not like a bunch of songs inspired by a breakup. It's the whole breakup. You're right, Charles. There are precedents here. The one we talked about earlier, Beyonce's lemonade comes to mind, I think. Sure.

Certainly, Adele has her divorce album. Casey Musgraves. has her divorce album. Yeah. But there's something different here. It's remarkably candid and vulnerable. Yeah. It starts in a pretty bright and happy place, though, with the title song, West End Girl.

Love this song. I'm in a hotel room. I'm all of my own. Now I'm a... I love how it plays with time in there. So at the start of this album, Alan's just gotten married. She's moved to NYC, but then she gets cast in a play and has to return to London. alone becoming the titular West End Girl.

And even though we have these bright 60s style musical vibes, there's this disconcerting slowdown in the music. Yes. Which seems to come out of nowhere and suggest there's something dark lurking underneath. Speeds back up and then we go into a phone call that will seem to change everything. Because two tracks later on sleepwalking, we know that something isn't right. So nice.

Adultery. Gaslighting. Not good. Things are starting to crumble in this relationship. Before you move on, though, I just have to ask, do you feel like sleepwalking is a reference to the Santo and Johnny song Sleepwalk from 1959? Wait, okay, so here's the connection. It's not just the lovely slide guitar, which I love so much, but it's that waltz feel. And you just played the instrumental.

But there is a vocal version of Sleepwalk by Betsy Brie from 1959. You see what I'm talking about? I do. You speak the truth, Charlie? Except I'd say it's more of a 6-8 feel than a Waltz feel, but yeah. Oh, sorry, yes. Not a waltz. It's just, excuse me.

Thank you, Professor. So things escalate on West End Girl from the suspicions of sleepwalking to the confrontation with one of her husband's lover. in the song Madeline. We had an arrangement. Beater sweet and dumby playtime. It had to be payment. It had to be a stranger.

But you're not a stranger, Madeline. Hey, he is telling you the truth. I love that the first song of West End Girl opens up with the story of her getting cast into play. because the whole thing really unfolds very much like it's on a stage. It's a song as much as it is a dialogue between Lily Allen and this so-called Madeline, who she's exchanging letters with. And exposing those letters, man, I hope that these are read word for word.

I hate that you're in so much pain right now. I really don't want to be the cause of any upset. He told me that you were aware this was going on and that he had your full consent. If he's lying about that, then please let me know, because I have my own feelings about this honesty. The musical accompaniment has the quality of a spaghetti western shootout that you'd recognize from the scores of someone like Ennio Morricone. I can't whistle.

Let's hear Alan again. Yes. So epic. It's a duel. It's a duel. And there might be some parallels back to our ace. side with Tate McCray. I mean, both of these songs have our protagonists confronting the other woman in the relationship. Willie Allen is talking to Madeline directly here, just like Tate McCray says,

you know, I only knew things were really over between us when I talked to the other girl and got her side of things. But in West End Girl, I would say the peak of the savagery that Lily Allen unleashes upon her X probably comes in the song for Chan Stan. That is a sick burn. I hope no one ever calls me that. It's not going to happen. And then there's some other incredible stuff that happens, including the track Non-monogamomy, which I think is just a brilliant turn of phrase.

We learn more about the couple's open relationship and how those terms might have been violated. and eventually we end in a place of clarity. At the very end of this album full of pain and betrayal and savage burns, we get the song, Frutie Loop. At the end of the album, rather than hurling insults, it's kind of a moment for Alan just to say, why are you the way you are? It probably has to do with your childhood.

and what am I going to take away from this? We get that answer in the chorus. It's not me, it's you, Charlie. It's like saying you're a cliche, because I'm going to take an old cliche. It's not you, it's me. I'm going to spin it around and deliver it as a pop song. Well, this isn't just a generic cliche.

This is also the title of one of Lily Allen's studio albums. Oh, that's right. So perhaps it's not only a way of saying this is your thing, this is your issue at the end of this. I just have to remember that I'm okay. It's also maybe a way of reclaiming the music that gives her her identity. This is her first release in seven years and what a comeback it is. Oh yeah. Everyone in my life was saying, you got to listen to this album.

I'm like, it's a breakup album. I have never heard an album with this amount of special. There's just so many fine details of this relationship. I mentioned earlier that now people are going to watch the Architectural Digest Tour of the home that Lily Allen and David Harbor bought together because you can literally see the details of that home written into the lyrics of this song. It's great relationship sleuthing. I feel like TMZ.

I feel like Dumois. I feel like tabloids from the... UK and having a lot of fun with it. I didn't know you were so fluent in the language of celebrity gossip. De Mois, you're just out here dropping demois like it's nothing. Oh, no, it's everything. It's everything. But here's the thing I want to end with Chuck. I agree. We are drawn to the tabloid details to the dirty laundry. Yeah. But dirty laundry alone does not make a revenge song work. No. It's artistry that makes a revenge song really. A revenge anthem can't just be a litany of quibbles and beef and betrayals. It has to kick ass as a

standalone song. And that's what these songwriters and singers, Tate McCray and Lily Allen do so successfully. They turn their pain into artful rage. And when you succeed with that formula, audiences can't get enough. Charlie, I think all that remains to say is the best Revenge is writing well. Okay, Nate, I feel like I'm going to go start working on a dissertation about this the Lee Allen album. There's so many fine details in there. The other thing that I need to start studying more deeply are the 13 languages that are going to be on the new Rosalia album, which is going to be the subject of our next episode. If people haven't listened

to her new single, Berghein, whoa, the most unexpected track I've heard in a while. Every single act of it, completely blown away. That's where we're going to be going in a week, and I'm really excited to share that with you all. Also, we mentioned our interview last week with Charlie Puth. You can not only listen to that interview, but you can go watch it on YouTube. You can see Charlie Puth playing piano, taking us through harmonies, singing. It's really cool not just to hear him, but to watch him. So go over to YouTube.com, find Switched on Pop, and like and subscribe.

They say we've got a faceman for radio. Let's put that to the test, Charlie. Yeah, please go like and subscribe the pod. It would mean a lot. All right. Switched on Pop is produced by Rihanna Cruz, engineered by Brandon McFarlane, edited by Alyssa Soap, illustrations by Iris Gottlieb, theme music by Zach Tenaro and Jossi Adams of Arch Iorce. Remember of the Vox Media Podcast Network and work a part of Vulture, which is part of New York

magazine. You can subscribe at mymag.com slash pod. Find us on social media and tell us what your. favorite break-up revenge anthems are? What do we miss? What are the songs that make you go, who I hope I never break up with that person because they would drag me to hell? And until next week, thanks for listening. Attention Spotify. Has arrived on the new Good Girl Jasmine Absolute of Carolina Herrera, a fragrance intense with character curman and addicivio. Imagine a jasmine

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