Switched on Pop - Look At Selena Gomez Now with Justin Tranter & Ian Kirkpatrick

Episode Date: February 11, 2020

Selena Gomez has her first #1 song on the Hot 100. “Lose You To Love Me” is a confessional look at her past five years of heartbreak and health challenges. By contrast, her single “Look At Her Now” is a testament to moving on and moving up. Each of these songs inhabits a different musical and lyrical world and we were lucky to get to speak with her collaborators on the songs to take us behind the scenes of how they came to be. Justin Tranter and Ian Kirkpatrick are two of today’s most in-demand writers. They walk us through how Selena takes her personal emotions and translates them into public catharsis on her album “Rare.” Songs Discussed Selena Gomez - Vulnerable, Lose You To Love Me, Look At Her Now Crash Test Dummies - Mmm Mmm Mmm Mmmm Dua Lipa - New Rules More Watch Selena Gomez interviewed by Zane Lowe on Beats One. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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It's free for iOS users. What's up, Nate? Hi, Charlie. I haven't seen you in like a week because we took a little break after being on an extensive book tour. To everyone who came out to see us, thank you so much.

I can't put into words how meaningful it was to meet in person, people who listen to our show, who have, like, written us, but we've never seen, you know, face to face. We can't wait to go out there and do more live events, like ideally all over America and the world. Yeah.

Stay tuned. And if you haven't yet, check out our book. It's really fun. We're super proud of it. It's called Switched on Pop, how popular music works and why it matters. Thank you. I guess that's important. If you like the kind of stuff we do on the show, I think you'll really do the book.

It has great illustrations, and we dig into 16 classic songs from the last 20 years. It's, yeah, it's blast. Yeah. So let's hop into our episode and just a quick warning for folks. There is some completely innocuous vulgarity in it. So if you're with really little ones, maybe. It's like passionate vulgarity, you know, from just loving something so much that you need to curse. I don't think you'll be too offended.

Yeah. Welcome to Switched on Pop. I'm songwriter Charlie Harding. And I'm musicologist Nate Sloan. Selena Gomez, the former Disney TV star turned Pop Act, has had a challenging number of years from her very public breakup with Justin Bieber as well as some difficult health complications, leading to a retreat from the public eye. And she's back now with an album called Rare,

which offers a quite confessional look at what it takes to overcome emotional and physical adversity. And it comes across in a very direct and vulnerable way. In addition to all my demons and we deepen, would we crash and burn like every time before. I'll stay vulnerable. In addition to offering a behind-the-scenes look at growing up in the public eye, this album is Gomez's most successful, generating her first number one hit, Lose You to Love Me. Yes, a song I absolutely love and continually mispronounce.

Love me to lose you. Lose you to love to lose. Nate, you're not the only one who has loved this track. In fact, in an interview with Zane's, low on beats one. Selena cogently conveys how this song has been important, not just for her, but also her fans. When Lose You to Love Me came out,

and the reaction it got, I definitely knew it was a special song I didn't know that it was going to become what it was. It was your first number one. People responded to it in such a huge way. I think when that happened, I had a moment where I said I completely get it. The agony, the confusion. the self-doubt, all of that wrapped up into that song.

That was a moment where I got it. I needed that. I went through that for something like this for other people. And that was a really special moment. I love this clip here because I think it communicates the unique power of a pop song where one person's emotional challenges can then resonate with so many others that they can take it and make it their own. And for Selena, this was a challenging place to get to,

this level of honesty. For her, it required, she describes with Zane a lot of therapy, which she advocates for, as well as a lot of just personal introspection and the collaboration with peers that helped pull these songs out of her. I think I just found my group, and I think I'm getting better and better, but I only know that that means it's because of the people

I'm surrounded by. That inspire me, that challenge me. Got to have a group. Yeah. Got to have a crew. A posse. I got my posse right here. I got my buddy Nate.

Yeah, a posse of two. So there were many great collaborators on this album. But today I want to focus on some of my favorite songwriters and producers, folks that have maybe made it into the show a bit in the past. We're going to talk about her two big singles, and we're going to speak with the collaborators behind them. So we'll listen to Luzi to Love Me and her other big single. Look at her now.

Great. Let's kick it off with Justin Tranter, who tells the story of Luzi to Love Me. And in this conversation, you're going to hear him mention some other folks, producers, Matt Man and Robin, as well as Julia Michaels, his frequent collaborator. We reached out to Julia. It wasn't available to chat, but we'll definitely feature her at some point in the future. Let's go to Justin. Right on. Justin, welcome back to Switch on Pop.

Thank you so much for having me. I want to talk to you about the song, Lose You to Love Me. Take picture, what is the song saying? I think it's pretty clear. It's not about trying to hate on anybody else. It's not about any of that. It's just about acknowledging the time that you went through that wasn't the best and coming out of it trying to love yourself more and having to put as much beauty into yourself and as much love into yourself to kind of survive what you had been through. You know, a lot of times when me and Julia work with Talina, Julia and Felina will kind of text before the session about where Selena's head is at and what she's thinking and what she wants to talk about and what she's going through.

And that is exactly how that day started. It was on Valentine's Day last year. Matt Manor and Robin, when they work out of L.A., that always work in the same room. We were at that room there. And Julia was just telling us what Delina was thinking and feeling. And so we started just playing around and got a little time. tiny rough sketch of just like the first, you know, 30 seconds of the song together. You promised the world and I fell for it.

I put you first and you adored it. So far as far as to my forest. And then Selena got there and lost her mind in all the good ways about what we had just put together. And so then with Selena we dug in way deeper on the lyric and fleshed out, you know, the second birth. So the song is, luckily, that it always does me down and I'll show in. And so it wants to replace us like it was easy, made me think of it. So the song just kind of came together the way that,

luckily, fortunately, that it always does when we have this coffee together, which was just digging into what Selena is feeling and what Selena wants to address and finding the best way to do that in the form of the song. One of the things I enjoy about the piece is how the narrative progression is mirrored in the way that the song builds. Can you speak to a little bit about how those work together? Sure. For me personally, I'm like a big fan of old school folk storytelling songs. Like that's what I still listen to these days and that's what I love the most.

And so when you get the opportunity to do that in pop music, it's always so, so, so exciting. And to be super honest, when we first wrote it, It was basically just Robin playing those piano chords and us writing pretty much just to the chords. And then we definitely built, you know, in that first day, all the big background vocals, you know, me and Julia and Julian and Elena thing, all those big vocals together. But that was kind of all it was. And it was really up to Mount Ed and Robin to take it, you know, back to Sweden where they live and really flesh out the production to go with the story. And one thing I always appreciate about you, Justin, is you are so generous with the credit that you give to all of your collaborators.

Honestly, we'll set you free. One of the things you were saying that you contributed the backing vocals, and in the song, each chorus seems to get progressively larger. It, for me, reads almost as if Selena is building herself up, throwing away that past, and finding that self-love, which is fully realized in a giant chorus of many versions of Selena, you and Julia, by the end of the song. I love that you feel that,

because that was kind of what we were hoping and what we were going for. And, you know, what's really amazing, too, is that originally the outro, which was in the place of a bridge, so the first verse never came back. You know, now the first verse, half of the first verse comes back after the second chorus. Originally, it went right, you know,

there was no first verse being brought back. It went right through a bridge, which was, and now the chapters is closed and done, and now it's goodbye, goodbye for us. Matt Mena Robben, moving that into the outro was so, brilliant and it really closes that chapter. When I heard that flipped around, I just, I couldn't believe how good that felt. It really funny story is Julia was on tour when we wrote this and she was in LA for like literally four hours. And we got in the studio, did a scratch vocal, sing the backings. And then before we

wrote the bridge, which is now the outro, Julia had to leave. And so me and Selena wrote the little outro bridge ourselves. But like, I am very, very confident in my lyric. abilities. But logically, I always want to, you know, check with somebody to make sure it's good as it can be. And so we, like, FaceTime Julia as she was in an SUV on her way to the airport to fly to New York to do the Today Show or something insane. We were like, Julia, do you approve of the melody for this bridge? And she was like, yes, I love it. So it's like we finished the song via FaceTime. I love that. You called in your interview with Zane on beats. You said that Julia writes some of the best melodies of all time. Is there a melody in particular in this song that stands out to you as a great shining example of her mastery?

I think maybe the whole thing besides the outro, which was mine. But which we consider the post-book, but the internet calls it the chorus. But the, it's so simple, but it is so breathtaking. And when you can have it melodically, it's simple enough that the whole world can sing it after one listen, but it is still that emotional. That, to me, is just, like, pure magic. And when she sang that in the room, Robin, one of them, like, just walked over to her and hugged her. And they were like, thank you. Thank you for that gift.

Because it's just so special. And she's written a lot of unbelievable, quart-tee special, intricate melodies. But something about that one is, I would say that's maybe my favorite Julie Michael's melody of all time, because it's. Just so simple, but it fucking rips your heart out. And to me, that's when you win. That's a beautiful thing. I similarly, both Nate and I were really geeking out on even just the verse. It's very rare that I think someone geeks out on a verse.

Sometimes the verse is just there to get you passed into the next thing. and there's something very both pleasing and jarring about the, when she says set fires to my force, she almost like interrupts the phrasing of the first verse and creates a whole new set of phrasing as if her own internal narration is sort of stuck in trying to figure out where to go, trying to work her way out of this bad place,

this need to lose somebody. I mean, I love that, you know, that's like the beauty of what we do. It's like, you know, sometimes we're just in the flow and these subconscious details and these subconscious things, you know, we aren't even aware are happening, but then the listener is reacting to it and feeling it in a different way. And then obviously, you know, really brilliant guys like you are digging into it on a deeper level. But to be really honest, we were just kind of in the flow as it happened. What we needed to say that day was so clear that it kind of all just flowed out. And it's one of those things where the heart of it all was written in

you know, if you take out the time where we needed to talk about stuff and we needed to support each other because it's obviously a really emotional song, it was, you know, maybe 45 minutes. Tell me about the line, saying off key in my chorus. For us, it was just a great metaphor, you know, like, you sing off key in my chorus because it wasn't yours. And it's a great metaphor when you're in a toxic relationship or a bad relationship, and the person can't show up for you and they can't celebrate you. But obviously, we were very much aware of, you know, when you say that in a song, it's going to have a different,

it's going to have different layers to it, which I think is great. When I both heard this song, we simultaneously separately, we're like, oh, I'm 100% sure that this was a collaboration between Selena, Justin, and Julia. Love that. That makes me so happy. Yeah, we have, like, an unspoken language with each other now. Julie and I have been fortunate enough to spend so much time writing together that, you know, we built that a couple years ago. But I feel like on this album, we're all so proud of revival and the work we do on that together. But it was so nice because now on this album, it's like now Selena is a part of that secret language.

We've written with her enough, but like the three of us don't have to talk about much. We talk about our lives and talk about our feelings and how are you doing and how is your family and this and that. But when it comes to the writing, we just kind of know what we're aiming. and it just starts to happen, which is really cool. You know, as I said before, me and Julie have been fortunate enough to have that for a while, but to have that with Selena now, it was also just so cool to watch her

really, like, get her confidence as a writer and the creative of this album, like really, really giving direction on production, really pushing herself on the writing, diving in deep, you know, not being afraid to freestyle melody ideas, and it was awesome. You had spoken about that final line,

that bridge that became the outro, and one of the things that stuck with me here is that when she's saying goodbye to this past partner, the piano ends on an unresolved chord. What should we make of this? I think it ends in an unresolved chord because the journey of loving yourself has to always continue. If I were to dive in real deep to that. But also another answer might just be that it's, feels cool. It feels good. It sounds good. Definitely the lyric is leading the truth of

this is goodbye for us. But the unresolved chord, if you want to dive in deep, maybe about the journey of loving yourself always needs to continue. But it also may just be that Matt Man and Robin thought it sounded dope. Those are two perfectly valid answers. I appreciate both of them. It's always nice to talk to you, Justin, really appreciate it. Thank you for having me. Cheers. Bye. it's always so fun to get justin's insights and something he said that struck me was how catchy that post-course melody is love love yeah to love love love yeah as he was singing it i realized that there's something going on there that is a three-beat melody love love yeah one two three yeah so it goes love love love yeah

Love, love, yeah, one, two, three, one, two, three. Which is surprising because the meter, the underlying beat of this song, is four. Huh. One, two, three, four. So what they're doing there is superimposing a three-beat melody onto a four-beat meter. Ooh. Which creates this. There's actually a term for this.

It's called hemiola. That sounds like a disease. Or polymeter. How about that? Okay, it's a little more benign. And it's an effect that composers use to create a little bit of rhythmic tension and to sort of propel you forward, which is what she's trying to do in this song.

It's like move past something. And maybe that kind of rhythmic rub represents that. Anyway, there's so much great stuff in here. That was a really fun conversation. And it's not the only one because she has. has another fantastic hit off this album, an embarrassment of riches. When we come back, we're going to hear from the producer behind.

Look at her now. Maria, you have a podcast now and you need to start acting like it. What's the first step as a podcaster? Well, you have to ask lots of questions. I'm Maria Sharpova, and I'm hosting a new podcast called Pretty Tough. Every week, I'm sitting down with trailblazing women at the top of their game to discuss ambition, work ethic, and the ups and downs that come on the path to achieving greatness.

I have a few pretty tough questions for you. Okay. Ready? Do not sugarcoat something for me. No, no. We'll dive into their stories and get valuable insights from top executives, actors, entrepreneurs, and other individuals who have inspired me so much in my own journey.

Pretty tough is your front row seat to the women who have demonstrated the power in being unapologetic in their pursuits. I hope you'll join us. New episodes drop Wednesday. on YouTube or in your favorite podcast app. Immigration may be Donald Trump's signature issue. President Trump is now targeting predominantly Democratic cities for ice raids and deportations.

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I think that Americans are definitely against the kind of violent displays that we've seen in the street from ICE. When it comes to the question of deportation, the answer is more complicated. My sense is that people want border at the border. They don't like the idea of having no idea who's coming into the United States at any given time. The view on immigration from the bottom up, instead of the top down. That's this week on America. America actually. Every Saturday in your audio and video feeds.

Hopefully, after hearing the swelling choruses in Lose You to Love Me, we're feeling uplifted. Let's shift to another one of Selena's collaborators, Ian Kirkpatrick, who is also the producer behind two of our favorite songs. Don't start now. And new rules, which he wrote, Ruea. On this track, Ian brings.

rhythmic invention and some really unusual vocal production that pairs very nicely with Selena's Look at Her Now, which we can think of as almost an answer to lose you to love me. Here's that conversation. My name is Ian Kirkpatrick. I'm a producer and songwriter. Ian, you're the producer on the song Look at Her Now, one of the two really big singles off of Selena's Rare. Big picture, what is the song Look at Her Now about? What's it saying? Look at her Now is a song, I think mainly about self-preservation and being determined to not let someone else choose how you should feel about yourself. And also the whole look at her now thing, I think, is kind of like basking in the light of your accomplishment of kind of getting over some shit that was tough and coming out better on the other side.

Hence the look at her now. Can you tell me about how the song came together? We were in a session at Westlake, Selena, Julia, Justin, and I, and it's funny because we were writing a ballad or something slow and probably disappointing. And halfway through the session, Selena was just like, guys, like, this is cool,

but, you know, do you have, let's try something up-tempo, which is normal, like sessions always kind of just can stop and then take a left turn and do something else. Right. So I was, like, I think everybody was kind of, kind of like excited that you know selina wanted to switch gears and i had the track that i had made like a couple weeks before and i i kind of played it for a few people but it never like really resonated with anyone so for a split second i was kind of sweating because i was like you know

shit what do i have like that's uptempo that we do like right now you know when the vibe's good and i played a couple tracks and then i played the look at her now track selina like perked up and And Julia perked up and they were like, oh, this is fucking rad. Let's do something like, oh, thank God. Because I don't have anything else. We started with a ballad and then Selena wanted to change directions. I had the track and she loved it and felt inspired by it enough to, you know, write this story around it. So, yeah.

Tell me all that that moment. It's the thing that really stands out. And it's a sort of unusual hook. I think that was Julia's idea. It started as a joke and it was just like, now, let's just track it. And we did a rough of it and it sounded so fun. And then we had a long debate as to whether that was enough substance for a hook,

which a lot of people disagreed. I mean, outside of the session, a lot of people like, I don't know. It's the only part I don't like. I'm not naming any names. But, you know, some people didn't like it. Other people loved it. I just like that it's different, you know, and unexpected and that, you know, that part says so much without even saying a word.

What is it communicating for you? You ever, like, been in a position where you've seen, I haven't seen someone in a while, and then you see them and you're like, oh, shit, like, okay, like, look at you, look at you, you know? And it's kind of like how that person feels, you know, they're walking around and they're just like, mm-mm-mm. Like, I look good. You know, like, that feeling is, I mean, what a great. feeling. Tell me about how she performs that and how you record that sound. There's something about it which feels so present as if she's singing right there right to you. Yeah. Well, it's, I mean, her voice is, you know, she has a very soft, present voice. So it's cool. She sings very close on the

mic and I think it adds to like how personal the song feels, you know, like when she's talking you, she's literally like right there. The mm-mm part, oh gosh, it took us a while to get that right because it's such a fragile, you know, emotional indicator, you could say. You could get this wrong, right? Because you could be like, mm-mm, or you could be like, or, oh, yeah. It's got to be like, uh-uh, uh-uh, uh-uh, uh-uh, uh-uh, uh-uh, it's like, and it's hard to do that. Like, I don't know if you've ever tried to mm a certain way, but it's not easy. And Selena did a lot of takes of it.

And in the end, we actually did it to no tempo. So I just had her hold the SM7 in her hand And literally just like, we were just all in the room And she sat there and was just like, mm-mm-mm-mm. Like she did it a few times, like naturally. And then I took that and chopped it up to the song. You know, it's incredibly challenging to whistle effectively. Oh my God, whistling is impossible.

Who knew that saying mm-hmm would be so difficult to translate into a pop song? I know. Well, now you do. The only other song that I think uses this same technique goes back to the 90s that song. Do you remember that one? Oh yeah. Shit. Someone did it? Yeah, but not for like 20 or more years.

Oh, you're right. No. And in such a different way. Oh, that was the crash test dummies. Yeah, I think. Yeah, exactly. Whoa. Yeah, 1993. How old are you? I am 33.

33. I'm 37, so that was more my time. Wow, good for you. You got quite a brain. for that shit. I mean, it's the only other one. It just occurred to me. I was just thinking like, well, I think because there's like,

there's one neuron for music in my brain and there's only one other song that fills it. So thank you for continuing that. You know what? I was lying. That was the point. Just kidding.

Just kidding. Okay. So your record here has very strange, glitchy production with often off-kilter and complicated rhythms. Tell me about why you feel that the production in this song matches the attitude that Celine is presenting.

I mean, the glitchy stuff has always been like kind of my style. I love conveying a lot of information in a short span, and I think it adds to the depth of the production. I like that it's detailed. You know, it's like there's depth to it. I like that. As for how it complements the song, I think what I like is.

when there's like confident power full sonic foundation to a message i think it reinforces the message so like she sounds super fucking confident in that song and that's what the message of the song is you know like being reborn and coming back from some adversity where you know you kind of took an l but now you're back right it's like i want the sound behind it to reinforce that message and fully support it because it can't sound like you're trying to can't sound like you're trying to anything, you have to be doing it. I want the production to always reinforce the message, and it's got to sound as confident as she does. When you say something is particularly glitchy, can you point to some moments either in this song or maybe also in some of your other productions?

What should people be listening for? Well, if they have a big cup of coffee and they really want to go in, I mean, the bridge is a monstrosity of chops. I really like playing with space, so a vocal will be far away, and all of a sudden it's right in your face and maybe a reverb will cut off, like violating space, you know, kind of catching people off guard by using all the tools of dynamics that you can, you know, use on a production. There's a lot of, like, moments that move kind of fast, but it's not supposed to move so fast to where you get confused. You know, it's like just enough information happening,

just fast enough to be like, whoa, what the fuck was that? Like, I want to listen to the song again, you know? Like, I like those moments. Please allow me to go on a limb here. Oh, please. I think that perhaps a huge part of the success of your production career is likely due to you dropping some strange beats and introducing some absurd syncopation in Duelipas track new rules. Oh, yeah. You entirely catch people off guard. I mean, what the heck are you doing there?

People always flipped out about the fill going into new rules. And I feel like it's something that Scrolyx has done a bunch of times, like dropping the, drop on the two, you know, like not, although this is on the, it's on the two and, new rules on the two hand, but, you know, dropping the song on the one, like, how expected is that, you know, like, how fun would it be if you, you know, built up into something and then didn't give them exactly what they wanted until, like, half a bar later, like, or half a beat later, that's, I don't know, it's just, it's also kind of like a drummer thing, I think. I've been a drummer since I was five, and it's like, rhythm is probably the thing I'm best at.

I suck at playing the piano and guitar and stuff, but like rhythms and drums and, you know, rhythms of top lines and stuff, like, if you just fuck around a little bit and stay a little bit off kilter, you can keep things fresh and interesting and unexpected, and that's what I think catches people's ears, you know, just the right blend of, you know, some sort of like anchor of familiarity and then some, like, new rhythms, and you mix those together and you have this, like, new sound.

You're using here a lot of rhythmic dexterity, And so you're saying that you feel as though that sort of some of those unexpected qualities might speak to that newfound confidence that is being presented in the song. I mean, yeah, with newfound confidence comes new style and, you know, a new sound. It's got to sound fresh because you can't just come back with some dated-ass production trying to convey some important message. Like, it's got to support it. And if you're a new woman or a new man, like, you got to have the production to back it up. It's just like wearing the clothes, you know, when you go out, you got to wear the. close you got to walk to walk and talk to talk

that's great do you have a couple of favorite moments that stand out here in this song that might speak to that element of surprise and stunning style I don't know if I have a favorite moment but I'm definitely just so happy that Selena is down to push the envelope and do weird crazy shit she's always down to just see what happens like can we do this like

what if the hook was just the mm you know like she's so down to do that which I love because it's inspiring and it makes it so much more fun to work with an artist like that that's down to take risks and also be so vulnerable and open about, you know, everyone more than likely knows who she's talking about and she, you know, is just an open book. And all the songs, especially look at her now, maybe my favorite part of it is that it's a true story.

She didn't cut an outside song. She wrote the song with us. You know, she was there and she guided the whole thing. She even stopped the ballad that we were writing to start this. song, you know? What you hear is the truth. Yeah. Completely. She's had a lot of success on this record, finding some of the most successful singles that she's had in her career. And I think something that stands out about Selena is that

in many ways, her vocal style does not match that of the maybe like expected pop diva. You described her voice as a little more like delicate and present. Yeah, totally. But it's not a diva vocal, right? This is not about hitting crazy high notes and acrobatics. What about her voice and her songwriting speaks to you? You know, her voice is soft and I guess kind of delicate, but it's kind of like you were talking about earlier on when you said it just sounds like she's talking to you,

like that she's like right up in your face, like giving you this information. Like her voice is just very personal. And it has so many little details to it. And if I hear a vocal out of nowhere, I'll know it's her. You know, you can identify Selena's voice in two seconds, which is another great thing. It just sounds honest.

and it doesn't try to be anything that it's not. You know, she's comfortable in how she sings. She's not going to be, you know, doing a ton of runs and all this vocal acrobatics. It's more like, yo, I have a story to tell, and I'm going to tell it to you as best as I can in the way I do it. And here it is. Take it for what it is. That makes you think that maybe I should actually pull back my descriptor. Her voice isn't delicate, but rather she has the capacity to use different timbers to express what she's trying to say.

one of them might be a more delicate quality. No, delicate is a good word. It is delicate, but not weak. I feel like you can hear some of that more delicate quality in the verses and the buildup of Lose You to Love Me. But here, on Look at Her Now, there's a confidence that comes across in her vocal timbre. You know, she released Look at Her Now almost, it was like 24 hours after Lose You to Love Me because the message was important.

Like, she really went out on a limb on the ballad and displayed all the vulnerability. And then it was like, oh, by the way, here I am, though. Like, look at me now. Like, it's a quick synopsis of what this record is kind of, the battle of getting over all the bullshit. And then coming out on the other side, a better human being and more fit to deal with everything.

Well, Ian, this has been a lot of fun. Thank you for sharing your insights. Dude, thank you for having me on. I fucking love Switch on Pops. So, oh, sorry for cussing all the time, but big fan and you're great. And thanks for including me. You know, after listening to these two Selena tracks a lot, I feel now that I've sort of been in the studio as they came together.

And, you know, sometimes when we pull back the curtain and see how the sausage is made, it can maybe dull your appreciation of a track. This has done the opposite. I love hearing all the different voices and the processes that went into crafting these tracks and the mix of spontaneity and intention behind them. This was really deep. Yeah, I think you're right. In this case, going into the studio was helpful for me because it felt like I understand

the confessional nature of the music, which frankly is a larger trend that I'd like to explore with you at another time. I think there's a really strong aesthetic preference for this really personal, confessional songwriting. And Selena, I think, does it particularly well, not only knowing who to write with to get the material out, but also how to perform her voice in such a way that it feels as though it's happening right there, right for you, in a way that you can understand. And also being able to pull that together in the multiple narratives of what happens post-breakup from the personal realization, to the newfound confidence. There's a lot here. It's a lot of fun.

Switched on Pop is produced by me, Charlie Harding. And Juan, Nate Sloan. We are mixed, edited, and engineered by Brandon McFarland. Our producers are Bridget Armstrong and Megan Lubin. Artwork by Iris Gottlieb, and Abby Barr does our community management. Our executive producers are Nashak Kerwa and Liz Nelson. We are proud members of the Vox Media Podcast Network. You can find more of our show anywhere you get podcasts.

check it out and reach out to us on the Twits, on the face, on the inst, on the Eames, at switch on pop. Yeah, you can find us there. I did it. I said it. I breathed to the max. All right. We'll be back again in another week. Until then.

Thanks for listening.