Switched on Pop - Maggie Rogers: going viral is a trap

Episode Date: April 17, 2026

Ten years ago, Maggie Rogers was a senior at NYU, scrambling to finish a song for a music production class she was close to failing. The guest critic that week happened to be Pharrell Williams. She played him "Alaska," a track she'd written in about fifteen minutes. It is a bit of folk songwriting crossed with the electronic music she'd fallen for studying abroad. Pharrell told her he'd never heard anything that sounded like it. Someone was filming. The clip went viral, and it launched Maggie into pop stardom.  Ten years later, she's released three studio albums, earned a Grammy nomination for Best New Artist, and gone back to school to pick up a master's from Harvard Divinity School, where she studied the spirituality of public gatherings. And in the last few months she's been as visible offstage as on — advocating for free speech in DC, performing for 200,000 people at a protest in Minneapolis alongside Joan Baez, and delivering a haunting performance during the final run of The Late Show with Stephen Colbert, which CBS is ending in May. This week host Charlie Harding got to sit down with Maggie live at Chelsea Studios, in front of a room of current NYU students. It’s the same school, ten years later, now with Charlie in the professor's chair and Maggie as the visiting artist. SONGS DISCUSSED Maggie Rogers "Alaska" Maggie Rogers "Better" Maggie Rogers "One for My Baby (and One More for the Road)" Maggie Rogers "Different Kind of World" Marvin Gaye "What's Going On" Bob Dylan "The Times They Are a-Changin'" USA for Africa "We Are the World" More Newsletter Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Download the Eater app at Eaterapp.com. It's free for iOS users. Welcome to Switched on Pop. I'm songwriter Charlie Harding. Ten years ago, Maggie Rogers was a senior at NYU, scrambling to finish a song for a music production class that she was close to failing. The guest critic that week happened to be Farrell Williams. She played him Alaska.

Farrell told her he'd never heard anything that sounded like it. Someone was filming. The clip went viral, and it launched Maggie into pop stardom. 10 years later, she's released three studio albums, earned a Grammy nomination for Best New Artists, and gone back to school to pick up a master's from Harvard Divinity School, where she studied the spirituality of public gatherings. And in the last few months, she's been as visible offstage as on, advocating for free speech in D.C., performing for 200,000 people at the No Kings protest in Minneapolis,

alongside Joan Baez, and delivering a haunting performance during the final run of the late show Stephen Colbert, which CBS is ending in May. This week, I got to sit down with Maggie live at Chelsea Studios in front of a room of current NYU students, the same school 10 years later, now with me in the professor's chair and Maggie as the visiting artist.

Here's my conversation with Maggie Rogers. Thank you all for being here. Thank you, Maggie, for being here. Yeah, of course. Hi, everybody. So 10 years ago, you graduated NYU. I did. It is the 10th anniversary of a moment exactly like this where you're in front of an audience of your peers

in conversation about music, except I'm not Farrell. Definitely not. And his live reaction to your song, Alaska, changes your entire musical journey. Zero, zero notes for that. And I'll tell you why, is because you're doing your own thing.

It's singular. Since it is the 10th anniversary, and you've celebrated that song in a couple of ways, we'll talk about, I want to get a sense of what that song meant to you then. And what does it mean to you today? So there's a very long sort of behind the scenes of what writing that song was, but basically I was studying music production at Clive Davis and I wasn't really making any music. Like my entire junior year, I really started focusing on an English major.

I had spent my first two years in bands and then I kind of just needed some time, which I'm now so many years later, I realized that I kind of do it. this every five or six years. I like need a beat. I hadn't made music in like two years. And my professor, Nick Sansano, very gently brought me into his office and was like, my guy, you are going to fail. Like I was in an advanced music production class and I wasn't, I was making music to fill, to fulfill assignments, but I wasn't making things that was really like my artistry that they knew that I could make. And they were sort of like, you're up. Like you have to present in class next week Like we really need you to show up

Like we had like two months left in school So Alaska was the first song I'd written in two years And it was three days old This is your senior year? Yeah So that went well I'd shown it to my college roommate, Mary Who I'm still friends with

And write songs with And I'd shown it to her the night before And I had told her I don't know if I like this because it felt too poppy to me. Like it was outside of my comfort zone. So I think what was interesting was that I got really famous for something that effectively was an experiment. Like it didn't feel like the truest version of myself. It was at the time, it felt like something I knew that I was trying.

It was sort of, yeah, I was playing around. I was excited about it. And I, you know, that EP that I ended up finishing was my senior. project. But I think it was difficult at the time too because I cared so much about my classmates. You know, these are really small programs. And I think I'd really seen my classmates work really hard in those years and they'd really seen me do other things and invest my time and energy elsewhere. So I think when that moment happened, it was also really complicated because it was like a little awkward or like I felt I had so much respect and love from my classmates.

who had really put in the work and it was just a really strange thing, the way it all happened. And so this is a song that quickly came to define your early career. You've probably performed it a thousand times. Many. Is there a lyrical or musical moment that speaks to you in some sort of way now? There's two. In the second verse, I say learn to talk and say whatever I wanted to. Learn to talk and say whatever. I want to do.

There's so much space to play with that. And then I also, when we were playing Colbert, doing an acoustic version, there's a moment always when I say, I thought it was a dream, where I get this really surreal, special connection to being a student and being an artist, not knowing what I was doing. And that still doesn't feel that different than now in many ways. But it all does feel like a dream. And that time really was dreamy. I feel like that moment in time, 2016, there was a whole meme this year about 2016 being a special year, a transformational year.

I think part of it is that it just doesn't feel like it was actually 10 years ago. I think that the pandemic just really warped all of our sense of, like, it could be six years ago. I'd believe that. Seven maybe. But the non-linear

I think is the big joke. But it was also a different time in media, you know, that this thing happened to you. You became with this, I think what even Stephen Colbert introduced the song when you performed it is like 10 years of the anniversary of this viral song. Yeah. And I'm just wondering, I remember when that happened and every musician I know is like, I want that to be me. I want that to happen to me.

Is it still a teachable moment? Like, can that happen again? Always yes. Because otherwise it's no and why not yes. That shit went viral on YouTube and then Facebook. I didn't put a record out till, talking September 2016, my first record came out January 2019.

I went slow. And I think that that's actually the thing that I wonder if that could happen now. Like I really took my time. I toured the world, world, like Japan, Australia. I toured the world for a year and a half on five songs, on an EP. And this was after I had grown up playing in bands. Like I really invested early on in like a sustainable relationship with an audience over basically anything else.

It's funny because when you asked, could it happen again? my thought was would I wish it on anybody? Would you? I don't think so. No. I mean, I think that great art will always find its way to listeners and find its way to the top. I like really, really believe that. But that experience, I think as we've seen time and time again, there's something

incredibly unnatural about the fast attention of the internet. There's a reason it shares a word viral with something that we all suffered from. It's really unnatural. And like, I feel so grateful to my friends and to my bandmates and to mental health caretakers and managers and the people that really supported me through that time. But more than anything, I was really, really scared. And I wouldn't go back and change it because it's not really how it works anyway. And I love who I've become and what my career has become. But part of why I feel that way now is honestly because the pandemic, because at the height of my career, I also got a second to stop.

Part of me thinks that I absolutely agree, yes, it will happen again because great songs will connect with people. That will always happen. But it was also a particular moment in like, yeah, it went viral on Facebook. This was like a text and image-based internet. There was YouTube, but like YouTube creator world was nowhere what it is today. I don't even know what that is. And there, we now exist in a world where that like, you know, songs can reach hundreds

of millions of people and go viral on TikTok, but then actually not connect with an audience and have an audience show up in the same sort of way. I mean, the thing that I've always felt is I would rather mean very little. What is it? I'd rather mean a lot to a few than a little to many. And even with Alaska, it was getting bigger than what I could handle. And we killed the radio campaign on that song. Like it was going to go to pop radio. And I was like, you cannot do this.

Like it was already, it was going to like alternative and like independent radio. And it was already more than what I could handle. And at that point, what it would take to support a pop radio campaign, with me like going in and politicianing and shaking hands. And I, that wasn't why I wanted to become an artist. I've always known that I am and was then an album artist. I mean, by the time Alaska happened, I had been in so many bands and had put out two independent records.

And I knew that I liked thinking in long form. And if one song became bigger than me, then I would never get the chance to do that again. So lots of music students in the room right now. Yeah. when one of their songs has this runaway success, what are the things that they should and should not do? I have no idea. No, genuinely, because, like, I don't know what it's like to try and come up.

Like, now. I'm not really on TikTok. Like, I bop in every, like, four times a year and, like, say what up. But, like, I can't imagine. What about, like, the inner work? It sounds like there was some sort of soul searching. On the inner world, like, keep making music. Like, I don't know.

You know, it's funny because the advice that everybody, I think, always gives you is, like, don't get too big for your britches. Or, like, don't let it change you. But that is so ridiculous. Of course it's going to change you. You just bought a new pair of britches with that. Amen. But, like, of course, like, it's going to change you and it's okay. think is what I would tell someone going through that. And just like hang out with your friends.

And I think don't be afraid of people because it can make you feel a little like the idea of being perceived all the time is really scary. You had taken a big break from writing music. This thing happens. How did that change your relationship to writing music? Because then, I mean, you said, you eventually put together EP. Yeah. The album comes out a couple years later. I mean, the day the Farrell video happened, I walked out of class. I didn't really know what to do. And I remember I turned my phone off and I walked to Chinatown to my friend's apartment. And we made a song called Better that ended up on the EP.

And I remember showing up and I was, I said to him, I was like, this thing just happened. He was like, cool. I was like, I really liked my song. And he was like, oh, that's cool. Anyway, so, like, it just was, his response was so, like, weird. That's awesome. Like, what should we make now? That it really was like, yeah, there is really nothing to say about this other than this weird thing just happened.

Let's make music. And that's kind of always been my reaction. It's just like keep making things that you love. But the other thing I'll say is that every single person makes choices based on what they want out of a career. And every single person wants something different from a career. and that's like completely okay. And I always set the bar. Like to me when I was playing in bands in New York City,

being able to play Bowery Ballroom was like the craziest thing. I couldn't figure out even how you'd get that many people to come to your show. Like we could figure out like pianos and Mercury Lounge, but I was like, how do you, how, like, I could not put it into my head how you would. I was like, if you were playing Bowery Ballroom, you are famous, like totally successful. successful artist. And so that's always been the bar. Like, I always want to make things that I'm engaged in and that, like, my creativity

is fed. And as long as I can do that, still play Valerie Ballroom. Like, I'm good. Another amazing stage you played recently was the Ed Sullivan stage for the Stephen Colbert show late night with Stephen Colbert. In addition to doing a complete new arrangement of Alaska, strings and horns from his band, you also perform. Harold Arlen and Johnny Mercer's, one for my baby, and one for the road.

So, it's an interesting choice for a song in 2026. So these are Stephen Colbert's final performances, and that song was originally sung by Fred stare in a film and then there, you know, many people have many famous versions of the song, like Sinatra, et cetera, that Midler performed that song. And specifically that version, she rewrote a couple of the lyrics for the final episode of Johnny Carson, which if you haven't seen that performance, it's so beautiful. We're drinking, my friend, to these. It's such a sweet episode.

One for my baby and one more. It's such a lesson in like, I love that performance because she's so grounded and she's so in her body and she's so personable and she's not really performing as much as she is talking and even when we were choosing the key, I can sing that song higher but it's not really meant to be higher. higher. It's meant to be sort of spoken. Anyway, it was really fun. And Bryn Bliska is playing piano and did such a beautiful arrangement.

It's a really beautiful moment to mark a sort of a very challenging time. Convierte your passion in a new with Shopify and bathe records of ventas with the form of the Pago with a better conversion of the world. Has you heard of the best. The Meregore Conversion of the World. The incredible system of Pago of Shopify facilita the purchases in your website on your website, in the

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Immigration may be Donald Trump's signature issue. President Trump is now targeting predominantly Democratic cities for ice raids and deportations. Dozens of protesters clashing with immigration and customs enforcement agents in many We will begin the process of returning millions and millions of criminal aliens back to the places from which they came. But what we want to do in this space is talk about America and politics beyond the current president. So what do most Americans think about deportation and border security, period? I think that Americans are definitely against the kind of violent displays that we've seen in the street from ICE. When it comes to the question of deportation, the answer is more complicated.

My sense is that people want order at the border. They don't like the idea of having no idea who's coming into the United States at any given time. The view on immigration from the bottom up instead of the top down. That's this week on America Actually. Every Saturday in your audio and video feeds. Most of us probably know this, but the late show was Stephen Colbert.

It's going off the air forever in May. It was canceled by its parent CBS. Back last summer, it was announced. Colbert had criticized CBS's parent Paramount who'd settle a lawsuit with Donald Trump over a 60 minutes editorial decision. They made a $16 million settlement to Trump's future presidential library. CBS said it was purely a financial decision when they announced it last July. But it was also at a moment when Paramount was pursuing a merger with Skydance and needed approval for the FCC. The merger was approved.

A week later, Donald Trump posted Truth Social that Jimmy Kimball's next. he eventually has taken off the air momentarily. I'm not asking you to comment specifically on, we don't have to get deep into presidential politics, but we live in a moment where free speech has been under assault. And a few weeks ago, you went to D.C. to perform at a protest in front of the Kennedy Center, now Trump Kennedy Center, for the Committee for the First Amendment.

Yeah, so that was, the D.C. event was actually just a press event. But in Minneapolis, we were in front of 200,000 people. You performed The Times Are Changing with Joan Baez. For the times they are changing. You also performed your song in a different kind of world. Yeah. My hands are shaking, but I'm just sweating, thinking about the state of the world. But when we're riding all together, it's a different kind of world.

What has motivated you to participate in these events and sing these songs? I'm motivated by being an artist, which means feeling, in general. Participating in any form of activism is inherently a creative practice because you have to be able to dream of a future that is different than the one you're currently living in to be there. And so it feels like a really natural space for artists because it doesn't happen. without creative thought. And it's really just inherent to who I am and how I feel through the world.

And I think it's really complicated being in these spaces because it's so clear that the system doesn't work. So then to show up at the protest for the system or against the system is hard to rectify. I was speaking with friends last week and they told me this quote from this like 1900 statistician who's also a composer who basically said any system is set up to produce the result that it's currently producing so then everything's broken so to show up at the protest even though you know things are broken to like hope you can change a tiny bit or just be with other

people that are feeling is kind of like a complicated and interesting thing. But I think about it in the same way as I think about changing a small detail of an arrangement. Like it makes everything better, even if you can't change it all inherently. You said that activism is fundamentally a creative act because you have to imagine another world. And when you did the event in D.C., you said this. More than anything these days, I feel scared and I feel afraid, and when I feel that way, I make music, so I'm so happy to be here today. A quick moment, but there's a lot there. Typically, when we are fearful, we run or hide. Those are like the natural, right?

Those are good reactions. And instead you're saying, I'm making music. Well, I've learned that singing makes me feel better about everything, especially singing with other people. people. It makes me feel better. And also, like, at the end of our performances in Minneapolis, we were joined on stage by the Resistance Choir. And it was, it was like the whole point. It was so joyful and so present. And after, like, many long, very smart, very wonderfully eloquated, like, spoken speeches, people really just need to dance. together.

And that's the thing, you know, I'm not dancing, right? Like, I don't really know where to go to dance right now. And that is, like, stressing me out a little bit because that to me is, like, medicine in the same way that making music or singing is. And I think it's that same, like, mind-body spirit thing. Like, the spirit, I think, is the first thing that starts to suffer when, like, mass oppression happens. and arts always going to be the thing to me that saves it.

So I'm hearing a bit of like, especially in that Minneapolis event, like song and dance literally are an act of making that world that you want to be true, present in that moment. I mean, it's joy as resistance. The most powerful moment from that was that there was like a who streets, our streets chant happening while the resistance choir came on stage. And there was one woman I watched yell. our streets with, it was like the most bone-chilling power and pain and ferocity and community.

And like her voice and her presence in that moment is the thing that like shook me. And took me like day, like I can still picture it so presently. But leaving that protest, I mean, playing for 200,000 people is like not something your body normally. does so I knew it would like take me a second to come down but like leaving the energy in that place like really took me a couple of days to shake down. I feel like we could stay here for a while but maybe bridging the conversation is if we need song to unite us in those moments, are there certain qualities that you think make a good song for protest activism? I think you have to be able to sing it about something else. You say more about that? I think protest songs that are too on the nose,

I would say different kind of world is like on the line but that was actually written for a group of friends of mine we were all doing like a song a day writing group in the pandemic and so it wasn't written as a protest song it was written as like a love song for my friends

I think great protest songs are about you can listen in a bar you can like I always think about like what's going on Marvin Gaye like that to me is like one of the best ones or times they're changing you can just like put on on a drive and like it could be it needs to it needs to work for the global and the personal and i think where protest songs don't work for me um like we were talking about we are the world you know mega smash hit great documentary and very impactful moment of activism raised a lot of money not

putting it on at a bar actually like kind of a jam though i'm like now i'm going to do that but like that's funny but for it sort of camp like quality perhaps yeah I think when I think about it today it's through the lens of it's hard to figure out if this song is about celebrity or not because so much of it is

I mean if that happened in 2026 people would call bullshit real fast well they tried to in the pandemic and it went really poorly with the redo of Imagine Imagine there's no heaven it's easy if you try No hell below us

Above us only sky Oh yeah I mean The system It's broken It just produces more broken systems One thing you're doing And trying to maybe build a

Participate in building a different system Is you've launched the Maggie Rogers Foundation Yeah How come and what are you hoping to do with it? How come? because I wanted a place to organize all the things that I care about. And the things I care about are like, everyone's health care and like women's bodies and everyone being able to have access to health care.

And music education. And so the first, and I'm not totally sure what it's going to become, but I'm excited that it's happening and that I now have a place for all these efforts. And I'm really excited that the first effort is a music scholarship in NYU. very cool but in an ideal world you don't need a scholarship because music education shouldn't be that expensive is also the like that's the like the system's broken but like here we are yeah yeah so when we last spoke it was 22 and you'd put out the album surrender and uh you're on the podcast and what you said was i don't know if i'm gonna make another record and i will be honest the journalist me was like

yes, I got the good quote. Right. And I was like, obviously it's not true. You later went on to put out, don't forget me in 2024. You kept making music. But it sort of ties back to the beginning of the conversation with Alaska. You had taken a break.

You needed a break again. I take breaks. You take breaks. What do breaks do for you? They help me renew my artistic vows. Because I think what it means for me to be an artist is always changing. Because what it means to be a human and whatever stage, of my life is changing and what I'm willing to share, what I'm willing to negotiate, what I'm willing

compromise on where I want to explore, what my goals are for myself and my exploration are always changing. I think why I fell in love with the music industry in the first place is because it's always changing. And I love that. I find that it's really innovative. And it means that like a girl in her bedroom in Ohio in high school can change the way that everyone does everything forever. And that's really inspiring to me. But yeah, I think I also just naturally go through periods of internal winter or quiet. I think that my introvert really needs a sick to process sometimes. And I find that if I let myself have that time, the writing of the record will actually be very quick. Because oftentimes the record making process is just measured as the number

of days you were in the studio, not as all the living that happened before that. So like Alaska, I'm like, okay, I made it in 10 minutes, three days before the thing, but it really took two years to make. Or, you know, the last time I took a year off, I went to grad school, and then I made, don't forget me in five days, in track list order two songs a day. and those were like basically the final masters. So it's like measuring productivity in time to me doesn't really work for creativity because it's not linear. Are you currently in a resting time or are making time? I'm coming out of resting time and I am in like big making time and it's really fun.

But also resting time is making time. Without having to get into your deep private personal life, what are the things that they're nurturing during rest time that other artists can learn from? The specific thing is just like because I'm on tour all the time, that's a specific existence. So a year off the road every four years, it makes sure that I continue to move forward in my like practical adulthood. Like you're laughing, but like otherwise you'll never like go to the dark. doctor or like learn how to deal with health insurance or like any of that stuff like doesn't really happen when you're on the road. So there is like an emotional human development piece that like is really important for me to make sure that that doesn't get left behind. Or just like work

on other things that like challenge me or ask for creativity in a different form. So like I worked on that meditation record with the Dalai Lama or like I did a bunch of writing. I like got really into like I learned a lot of random things like I'll sort of like pick a topic and go really deep. What's one example? I read a lot of like random things about mythology. And then I got really. You got into the Roman Empire? Like like kind of.

I got into the Roman Empire for a while. I got really into like Japanese films on Criterion. I got really into like going to the Whitney every month. I learned how to surf. I went to Antarctica. Like, I did some traveling. If this is rest time, there's kind of like an implicit trust that maybe one of these things

will provide meaningful input into creativity or does that not matter? I think it's, again, it kind of comes back to the thing of like what's the goal. And to me, the goal is really like to live a beautiful life. And so then it's about how that's defined. And this idea that there's just like work time and rest time. Like when I'm making music or I'm on tour or doing this, this never feels like work because I love it so much. And so it's really just making sure that I stay full as a person. So you keep an ongoing, talking about like other mediums, you keep an ongoing dialogue with your audience.

You have a newsletter. Yeah. You have spoken about adapting your thesis, you went to Divinity School, into a book. Yeah. And you make music, obviously. How do you think about these different mediums as being good at communicating certain kinds of things? Or why do you use each medium for different kinds of communication? This has changed over time.

But it's really grounding for me in this creative cycle right now that, like, essay writing or like me typing. at my laptop alone is a really, really special and nourishing, like solo creative process that is completely unfiltered by anyone else. And writing to me really works for both my structure brain and my creative brain, and that's a good place for me to be. Music, I think, is really meant to be collaborative. Like, I am such a prince devotee, but people are going to come for me for this, but I kind of think he fucked it all up for everybody in a way because he was doing so much by himself. And I think, well, then, like, I want to be like Prince and like do everything like that. But I really, I have found that like now that I've let go of that, thank God, because

it was never going to be Prince, I just really love making music with my friends. And I really think that music is something that's meant to be shared. And I think when all the pressure happens, for it to just be on you to do it, it like isn't as good as it could be if somebody else helped. And it's just to me not as fun. And so now that I have this real, those are the two practices I'm in most actively. And they really, really balance and feed each other. Wow. Thank you, Maggie.

Yeah. Thank you to all of you. Thanks, y'all. Thank you to Chelsea Studios. Thank you to NYU. All right. We go out with where we started. I'm just kidding us a walk-off song.

I'm so curious about what it's going to be. It's the song we didn't listen to at the very beginning. Oh, hey. Switched on pop is produced by Rihanna Cruz, edited by Lissa Soap, engineered by Brandon McFarlane, illustrations by Arras Gottlieb, video by Nick Rips, music by Jossi Adams, and Zach Tenorio of Arc Iris. Remember with the Vox Media Podcast Network and New York Magazine's Vulture. you can subscribe at mymagic.com slash pod. We'll be back again on Tuesday with another episode. And until then, thanks for listening.

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