Switched on Pop - Mickey Guyton sings truth to Country Music

Episode Date: September 29, 2020

Mickey Guyton spent a decade of fits and starts trying to make a career in country music. But now in recent months she’s having a country music moment releasing vulnerable songs that use her experiences of rejection, exclusion and racism as inspiration. Charlie speaks with Guyton about her breakout songs “What Are You Gonna Tell Her?” and “Black Like Me,” as well as what it took for her to make it onto one of country musics most beloved stages, the American Country Music Awards. Songs Discussed Mickey Guyton - What Are You Gonna Tell Her Dolly Parton, Kenny Rogers - Islands In the Stream Dolly Parton - Coat of Many Colors Mickey Guyton - Safe (Acoustic) Mickey Guyton - Heartbreak Song Mickey Guyton - Why Baby Why Mickey Guyton - Better Than You Left Me Mickey Guyton - Black Like Me Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

If you're tired of endless scrolling to figure out where to eat, same. I'm Stephanie Wu, editor-in-chief of Eater. We've just launched the new-ish and way better Eater app. It has all the restaurants we love, gives you personalized picks wherever you are, and serves up smarter search results just for you. You can find my list of the best places for martinis and fries in New York City. And save your favorite spots, share lists, follow editors, and book right in the app. the Eater app at Eaterapp.com. It's free for iOS users. I was wanting to make everybody around me

feel comfortable, making them feel unthreatened because I was in that space. And in doing so, I was the one who was constantly uncomfortable for a very long time. Welcome to Switched on Pop. I'm songwriter Charlie Harding. Today I speak with country artist Mickey Guyton, who, after a decade of fits and starts trying to make a career in country music has finally, in recent months, broken through with songs that use her experiences of rejection, exclusion, and racism as inspiration. I speak with her about her recent breakout songs, what are you going to tell her and Black Like Me, as well as what it took for her to make it onto one of country music's most beloved stages. I hope you'll be as mesmerized by her music and inspired by her story

as I was in this conversation. My name is Mickey Guyton. I am an African-American female country singer. Yes, that's right. So just the other night, you had a historic moment. You were the first African-American solo female artist to perform at the Academy of Country Music Awards. And you were accompanied by Keith Urban on a song of yours with a really powerful message called What Are You Going to Tell Her? What are you going to tell her?

Can you just shrug and say it's been that... Can you tell me the story of that song? Absolutely. So for people that don't really know what's happening in country music, there has just been some major discrepancies when it comes to women being played on country radio. You can actually look at the charts even right now and you can see that there's only one woman in a duet

in the top 20 on country radio. And this has been going on for a very, very long time. And I've been dealing with those frustrations just as a black woman in country music. And to see it happening to other white women in country music, it's just been really, really hard. So the inspiration of what are you going to tell her was kind of inspired by that. She thinks life is fair. And God hears every prayer. And everyone gets there ever after.

Followed by that there isn't equality here. No matter what you say, no matter how much you try to fight it, the proof is in the numbers. You can study it. You can research it. It's all there for you to see. She thinks love is love. And if you work hard, that's enough. Skin's just skin and it doesn't matter.

I'm thinking to myself, if you have a daughter, if you have a sister, if you have a mother, a grandmother, what? have they gone through to get through life, whether it's in their jobs, whether it's in life, period. Like, the oppression of women is a real pandemic that still is happening today. And I just, I wrote that song, what are you going to tell her out of just pure frustration. Do you let her think the deck's not stacked and gay or straight or white or black? You're just dreaming anything can happen. What are you going to tell? I went to a Grammy after party in Los Angeles, the Universal Grammy After Party.

And I remember seeing Billy Eilish. And I remember seeing Haley Steinfield and all these like beautiful, massive artists that are women. And I thought to myself, what exactly did they have to go through to get to this point? In your song, you frame how there are so many different kinds of dreams. dreams that a young woman can have. And the sort of thrust of the song is like, well, what are you going to tell her? Like, are you going to boost her up or tell her the reality of where we are? I never realized, I love that opening.

I love the almost like toy piano, right? It's like very childlike. Yeah. Absolutely. It was so cool about the songs. It was written by all women and produced by a woman. That is also super rad because I know that the statistics on women producers are about as dismal as they are for women country singers getting on the charts.

Absolutely. It's so hard. Did you have childhood dreams that you feel are reflected in this work? Absolutely. I've had childhood dreams reflected in this work. Just me trying to be a country singer, you know, the obstacles that I've had to go through and feeling less than and feeling unseen and double standards and all. all of these things that I've had to navigate through.

I mean, for example, I would turn in a song and it was overly scrutinized way more than a man. And there was a lot of times, even as a black woman, they would say, oh, well, your songs are just a little too pop. They're a little too R&B. People are going to question your sincerity. But here, you could have a man with a trap beat, in his song.

Right. Singing R&B melodies and rapping. And it goes straight up to number one. It was just really frustrating. And it does kind of shatter your dreams a little bit because you think to yourself, I've given you all that I've got and it's still not enough. Yeah. The song ends entirely unresolved.

Yeah, it's a question. It's to hopefully make every person stop in their tracks and think to themselves, like, what exactly are they doing in their lives? And how we can actually step outside of ourselves for a moment and consider other people and what they're going through and what their obstacles are and how do we make that better. I'm really interested in the way in which this song's message has evolved for you because you've had, a really long career of working to have this moment that is happening for you right now. And so I want to wind backwards a little bit and learn a bit about where you came from and what's going on for you now. So do you might just tell me a little bit about where you grew up? What was your home life? What's the early part of your story? So I grew up in Waco, Texas, or Crawford, Texas,

if anybody knows where that's from. And so country music came into my life. And so, country music came into my life. because of my grandmother. My grandmother loved Dolly Parton, and she also loved Southern movies. So you would come into her house, and on the back of her door, you would see the roots VHS tapes next to Still Magnolias, next to fried green tomatoes, next to all of these VHS tapes of Doherton and Kenny Rogers duets hanging on the back of her door. And she loved that. you know, coat of many colors is one of her favorite songs. Back through the years I go wandering once again. Back to the seasons of my youth.

And the reason why I love that song so much is because I grew up with all of these kind of unconventional, weird-looking quilts that, you know, my mom would have just around the house. They're not like the typical ones with the beautiful. patterns that you'd see at other people's houses. These were like patchwork. And I'd come to find out that my grandmother was so poor. And she had 12 children, by the way, that she couldn't afford to buy blankets. So she made quilts out of her own clothes. So there were coats of many colors, but my mom had quilts in many colors. And, you know, the stitching was all jagged and uneven. But they were so beautiful to me because that's the purest form of love.

It's like, I don't have quilts, so I'm just going to make it out of what I've got. Mama sold the rags together. So in every piece with love, she made my coat of many colors that I was sold. It was just so beautiful. And that's what I grew up was country music. And what I wanted to become a professional singer and a professional singer. and a professional country singer was my church, because you know, I grew up in the church, we went on a field trip to Dallas and we went to go see a Texas Rangers baseball game.

And I heard Leanne Rhymes sing the national anthem when she was like 10. And I remember what she was wearing. She was wearing this all-denim outfit with the American flag on the back. And I remember just hearing that voice, that mature, grown woman voice. And that's when I was like, that's what I want to do. That's what I want. And that's when I discovered, you know, I started listening more to Dolly Parton and Patsy Klein and Martina McBride and all of these amazing women. Even Whitney Houston and Celine Dion, like the 90s were literally some of the most amazing vocalists you would ever hear on the radio to me.

What was the first country song that you picked up? Well, it was the national anthem. I heard her sing the national anthem. anthem and I remember you know taking the bus the church van back to waco and I just remember just making up my own words at that point because I didn't know the words for the national anthem and it wasn't like you could go on your phone really quickly and like Google the words and hear a rendition of it so I remember the melody and then I learned how to sing that song that was really the first like country patriotic song I guess you could say

that I learned to sing. So you start your love of country singing the national anthem. Truly, yes, the most patriotic thing. At a baseball game of all thing inspired. A baseball game of all. The most American experience. How do you develop your country craft as a young woman?

Living in Texas, you know, country is a huge part of the South. Even at my high school that I went to, we had Wrangler Fridays at our pep rallies. That's when all the whole football team wore Wranglers. But I would just listen to anyone from Faith Hill in Leanne Rhymes and Whitney Houston and Celine Dion and Mariah Carey. And I would listen to them back and forth, back and forth, back and forth. And I would just sing their songs to the point where my brothers and sisters would tell me to shut that up.

because they were so overhearing me sing, but that's like all I wanted to do. And, you know, I just sit in my room and just mimic everything that they did. At that point in your life, did you have any idea about what kind of messages that you wanted to sing about? You know, I was always, like,

I did start songwriting, and one of the first songs that I wrote was called Sitting on my window seal. And I was always this kind of like, emo and my feelings kind of a girl. And, and thinking, It was like, it was really the worst song in the world. It was like, I was sitting upon my windows seal thinking about the lost love that I lost a long time ago or something like that.

Like, I was very in my feelings, had no earth the idea about any kind of love, period. I didn't even know what that was. But that's kind of what I wrote. I just wrote about, I don't know, being in my feelings. That's kind of where I started. It sounds like the sort of Generalized Disney-fied version

Of what a young person thinks love is Before they've experienced romance Knew nothing about it Felt no loss at all But you know You're growing up with country music All around you in Texas You're singing it

What makes you decide To pursue this music professionally? So I We got all the way through high school It came time for me to pick And decide Where I was going to live And I thought, okay, where can I get any kind of opportunity doing music as a woman, as a black woman in the world?

And, you know, there was Atlanta, there's New York, and there was California where my thoughts. Nashville wasn't even a thought. Like, there's no way anybody would accept me there, you know? And so I chose to go to school out in California. It's the Sunshine State. It's, you know, stars and, you know, it's Hollywood, baby, you know. And that's where you think that, you know, where you go to get famous. Right.

The only way I could go out there was if I went to school. So I started going to school out there. So I moved out there and I was doing that and you just befriend people. Like, it's even, it's like Nashville. You go to Nashville and everybody's a musician. Everybody's a songwriter. And so I just met people in that system. And I started, you know, getting opportunities to sing background vocals.

I got to do like demos for Whitney Houston at one point. And yeah, and I would, I met this producer duo at the time. I would sing demos for them or background vocals for a few different people, whether it was Cheryl Crow. I even did some for Patty LaBelle at one point in time. And I had been in L.A. for a while and I wasn't happy there. I went through a really bad breakup. you know, it didn't seem like music would ever be in the cards for me.

I didn't even know how to get to country music at the time. Right, because singing backup vocals and getting to do some demos is not making a career happen. Absolutely not. That's just like six feet from stardom almost. It's like you're just in the back. So none of these things are sort of like turning into the next step for you. No, no, not at all. And so, you know, I was pretty discouraged and I was ready to just

live a normal life. I'd been going to school for business. I felt like, okay, well, maybe I can be a vocal teacher or something out in Texas and use the context that I'd met and maybe help other artists get into the music industry. I don't know. And then I befriended this DJ named DJ D. Rick, a hip-hop DJ who changed everything for me. What happened? He was just a cool guy that I just knew around town. So I was at a mall. I didn't even live on that side of town. And so I ran into DJ DR Rec, who knew that I sang. And I was trying to kind of avoid him because I was already feeling down. I was already just feeling like get me out of this place, get me out of this space. I'm ready to leave.

And he chased me down and he was like, Mickey, how are you? You know? And he was like, don't you sing music? But it's not like what I would think you would sing, right? And I was like, yeah. He was like, well, what are you saying? I said, I sing country music. And he was like, that's so crazy because my boy Julian Raymond, who produced Glenn Campbell's record. Great country singer. Great country singer.

He said he's been looking for a black female country singer. So, of course, Julian Raymond asks his hip-hop producer if he knows any black female country singers, you know. But here I am. And from there, I started working with Julian. who then introduced me to my management, Gary Borman and Steve Moyer, who managed Keith Urban and Faith Hill and Dwight Yocum. Wow. Big leagues.

Honestly, I keep telling this to people, like whatever you're supposed to have, whatever your destiny is supposed to be, it will find you. Because there is no way that I should have been in this position all the way in L.A. and have met these people. Okay, so where are we in time,

now. What year is this? This is 2010. So in 2010, I signed my record deal in 2011, but the beginning of 2010, I was working in writing and doing demos in LA. Yeah. And then they introduced me to this producer named Busby, who passed away, rest in peace. I know we wrote this song called Safe. And my management felt like this was good enough for me to get a record deal. Oh, just wrap your arms around me. Let me know I'm sad. So they flew me out to Nashville, Tennessee. So did you get the homecoming welcoming?

What happened? Yeah, well, kind of. I met with one record label that was a little, and I'm not going to say who they are, because I don't want to. Sure, of course. It doesn't really matter. And one guy was pretty skeptical of me.

He was like, well, in Nashville, we co-rat. Do you co-rat? And I was like, yeah, I do. Right. Do you know who Joe Nichols is? Yeah, I do. And kind of like, questioning me, it was really rude. It was like, it was rude.

I did feel that. But that was one record label that I did not sign with. But then I went to. Yeah, but then I went to Capitol, to Mike Dungan, and it was just different. And I sat there and I sang a Patty Loveless song cover, standing in the room in front of his executives, and I sang my song Safe. And again, there was a fearlessness in me at that time that even when I was, did explain. a little bit of racism from one record label, it didn't make me feel scared to continue on. So glad you had the persistence.

Yeah. If I back up a little bit, growing up, I went to private schools growing up because when I lived in Crawford, Texas, the subdivision that I was supposed to go to, they made it known that they didn't want any black kids at their school. So I had to go to a private school and I was one of the only black kids in my class. So I would go to all black churches and then all white schools. And so I was never scared to be in a room full of white people because I've been used to. I've felt the awkwardness of being the only one. And it's something that doesn't scare me that may scare other people. So walking into these rooms with these executives, these men, these white executives, I didn't feel intimidated, if that makes sense.

What happens? So I sang my heart out. I had my management sitting next to me. We said our highs and goodbyes. I left the label, and that's when I got a call from Mike Dungan saying, we would like to offer you a record deal. And I remember Mike telling me, he said, I just want you to know that it's really hard for women in country music. But with perseverance and hard work, you can make it. But at the time, I was like, I've got this in the bag. I've made it. It may be hard, but I've got this.

It's not going to be that hard. It can't be that hard. Is it really that bad? There's no way. No. I was so optimistic. and overjoyed because at the time, I was working two jobs.

I was working like 17-hour days sometimes. Oh, wow. I wasn't scared of hard work. Like, people say they know what hard work is, but I was really working hard. How hard has it been? Very. It took me four years alone just to finally go

and put out one song. Wow. Was there a moment that, like, your bubble deflated after that initial, phone call. Oh, probably after the first two years of me being signed in my record deal, the bubble was slowly deflating. I was starting to see exactly what he was talking about, but I was just so motivated and just, I kept trying and kept at it. But it was just so hard because everybody was trying to make

the decisions for me. I was writing with the writers that they told me to write with, singing the songs that they told me to sing. I was doing everything that they were telling me to be but myself. And how are the songs? What was the reaction? It was always these iffy responses. And iffy maybe's, I don't know. This is a little to this. It's a little to that. Oh, this is too pop. You need to make it really, really country. Like you've got to sing. Really, really songs because people are going to question your sincerity. Do you think you are receiving excess scrutiny that other performers wouldn't have received? Yes.

Because I've watched performers come and go. I've watched artists get signed and two years later putting out full on records. It took me four to put out a song. You said that the music that you were creating then wasn't you. What changed? Well, you know, what changed was, you know, I put out a song called Better Than You Left Me in 2015. It was going to go. It was starting to do really well.

It was going up the charts. But this was in an era of bro country. And there was a little bit of a difficulty with the bro country, especially for me, was I was hearing, like I told you before, I was hearing trap beats and raps. And flat-billed hats and Timberlands and... And you're being accused of potentially being inauthentic at the same time. Uh-huh. Where broke country is straight up taking from black culture.

Oh my God. They'll rap on a song and do their hands like, and I'm looking around like, what? And it was hard because, you know, people were acting like this was new. This was new music that they had never heard before. And I'm like, well, I'm pretty sure I heard that back in 2002. You know, I'm pretty sure that I just heard that on a song on the hip hop station just a few minutes ago.

And it was really, it was difficult because, At the time, you're also made to feel like, don't piss off radio. Don't piss off anybody in country music because they won't, don't give them a reason not to play you. So I felt like I had my hands tied behind my back and I couldn't express how I felt. And I'd have to be silent. And I was just silent for a very, very long time dying inside. Okay, that's a little dramatic. I wasn't dying inside.

but sounds like the creative spark was definitely waning yeah you know like it's not natural or it shouldn't be natural for you to just keep your feelings inside like that's not healthy what changes for you to feel like on your EP that you've just put out bridges it doesn't sound like you're holding back so what changes to where you feel comfortable speaking what's going on for you well I I've I started going to therapy and I realized like I am my own person and I have something to say. Yeah. A lot of my silence stemmed from childhood. A lot of my scared to stand up for myself stemmed from way back then that I was bringing

into my adulthood. I wasn't standing up for myself, Charlie. I was allowing all of these people around me, no matter. who it was to tell me what I'm supposed to do as an artist, how I can make it. And so as I was going to therapy, I had a huge breakthrough conversation with my husband, which really changed it all for me. What was that? What did you say to each other? Well, you know, my husband's a very, very, very smart man. He got accepted into Harvard law school and said and didn't go because there weren't enough people that look like him. Like, he's that. He's that.

that type of person. So. Principle, too. Yeah, and principle. And so I talked to him, I asked him, I said, why do you think country music isn't working for me? And country music was not working for me. It wasn't.

It wasn't really working for any woman, if you want me to be honest. Not very many of them, at least. And he said because you're running away from everything that makes you different. You had been... Chasing everything but myself. I was wanting to make everybody around me feel comfortable. Making them feel unthreatened because I was in that space. And in doing so, I was the one who was constantly uncomfortable for a very long time.

And it just, it was suffocating, to be honest. Like, you're just sitting there and I felt like I was just people pleasing and smiling when I didn't feel like a smiling. writing songs that had no meaning to me. I was doing that for so long. Even when I was on tour, on a major tour, and singing and seeing someone waving the Confederate flag or seeing or hearing someone call me the N-word, I was still just trying to make these people feel comfortable around. me. And it was difficult. I found a strength that I never thought I would ever have because of it. You have this conversation with your husband. You say it's a breakthrough moment. Does your songwriting change then? Is that when you start writing the songs for this EP? Instantly, instantly shifted.

It was such a prolific moment. He said, who are you? I was like, I'm a black woman that sings country music. He was like, well, then sing about your experiences as a black woman. He said, country music is three chords in the truth, right? And I was like, yeah. And he was like, well, why aren't you writing about that? And I was like, well, that's a good fucking question. Why am I not? You know, writing about that. Why aren't any of us writing about that for that matter? And so instantly, it unlocked a part of my brain that I guess I had closed off for so long a part of myself that I hadn't necessarily accepted because I was trying, I was in this format trying to please and make everybody see me as equal to them. Wow.

Yeah. It's heavy sometimes. I think that that notion is reflected in your song. What are you going to tell her? Yeah. Do you tell her not to fight? Is it worth a sacrifice? That song came from years of me trying and being pushed back down.

And not only me trying and being pushed back down, then me looking around and seeing it happen to so many other people, this industry is not just happening to me. And every part of this industry is happening. Attention Spotify. Has arrived at the new Good Girl Jasmine Absolute of Caroline Herrera, A fragrance intense with character Gourman and addictive. Imagine a jasmine-envolvent, toffee caramelized and tonka-tosted.

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at shopify slash records. Throughout your EP bridges, there are some

great fun songs, but also songs with a real strong message. The song

which both most pointedly speaks to your own experience and also is the catalyst for it changed everything it changed everything so tell me about black like me so when i was in college at santa monica community college to be exact i had an awesome professor when i was studying black history and we read the book black like me written by john howard griffin a white man who darkened his skin through radiating

to look like a black man and go to the deep south in the late 1950s, early 1960s, to see what is like to be a black man in America. And just think about that at that time. Like this man literally stepped into somebody else's shoes. We say step into somebody else's shoes, but he literally did. Like he saw the difference. He saw how he was treated differently. and felt that and was scared and felt the fear that a black man would feel. I read that book and it always stuck with me.

And after my husband had had that conversation with me about running away from everything that makes me different, that was one of the first titles that came into my head was black like me. And so I was in a writer's retreat, which I hate writers' retreat, so much because there's so much pressure and writing songs quickly and showing how well you are at doing the, you know, being a songwriter and all of that. And so I was in a session with two white guys, Nathan Chapman and Fraser Churchill and a black girl named Emma D.D. and myself. I've known Nathan, but two of the other writers knew nothing about me, have never heard me

saying knew nothing. Sure. And I just threw it out there. I said, guys, I have a song title idea. I know it might be crazy, but I'm just going to say it. And you guys can tell me what you think. And I said, it's black like me. And I was like, just think if you think we live in the land of the free, you should try to be black like me. And he wrote that song. That was a huge transition for me. I had been, I had started embracing myself. And I was I was writing towards this goal. But this was the song that literally changed it

all. And I remember we finished the song. We finished the vocal. And Nathan Chapman, and that's the vocal. What you hear is the vocal the day of. And Nathan turned around and he said, I think we might have just wrote one of the biggest songs of your career. And it might make people very angry. On easy street. So what's the reaction? How does this get out into the world? No. I wrote this song March of last year.

Huh. I was like, there's no way that anybody's ever going to allow me to put this song out, especially in country music. There's no way. There is no freaking way. And I would play it for people,

and the common response was like, I need a minute to digest this. That's a powerful response. It is. It's like, and I was like, of course you need a minute. minute to digest this.

Yeah, more than a minute, maybe a couple of centuries of history. Yeah, and the crazy thing is, is when we wrote this song, like, you know, there were other people that were just being killed unjustly, like Botham Gene, who got killed in his own damn apartment, eating a bowl of cereal. And I was seeing all of these mass shootings, and whether I know these people are not, or these shootings of black men, whether I know them or not, whether I know they're a criminal history or not. It's still hard to see, you know?

Like I see my brother, my father, you know, when I see these deaths. And so that was around that time. And so I never thought the song, honestly, would get the time of day. And there wasn't a real plan of when we were going to release the song, but it was something that I really believed in. And my label, even towards the beginning of this year, started inching towards being okay with putting the song out. But it was very, very slowly, by the way. And then this was around the time that I went to that universal after-party.

And I have to tell you a story about that, too. When I was going to the Universal After Party in L.A., Grammy After Party, Excuse me, the Universal Grammy After Party in L.A. we were going to go, my management took me to the party so we would meet this head guy of some major streaming platform to try to get him to play Black like me. Huh. And try to like just send it out and see if they would play this because there was no Ray Radio was going to play it. And I remember in doing so when I was trying to get this song played and going and meeting this man in a velvet suit. with his whiskey holding it all nice and his hair all, you know, perfect for this event and feeling all good about himself. I'm over here trying to get this man to play a socially conscious song.

And even in me trying to play that song and me meeting him, I felt like I needed to perk up and bat my eyelashes and be like, hi, to get this guy to play a song like Black like me. Yeah. And in that moment, I remember I felt. so sicken of myself. I was so ashamed of myself because I shouldn't have to do that. I shouldn't have to bat my eyelashes and perk up to get an opportunity to play a song like Black like me. And that's when I wrote, what are you going to tell her a day after? The very next day, actually. And so when I wrote, What Are You Going to Tell Her, which was this year, which is still crazy to think about,

that's when the label was like, my music started making sense to them. And that's when they started hearing Black like me differently. And so we were going to put both Black like me and what are you going to tell her out as a package in March? I was meeting with people to look at music videos. We had music video ideas and treatments that we were working on. and then COVID happened and stopped everything. Gosh. Oh my gosh.

There's like a number of times that just like these opportunities are there and there. And then the world closes down. Yeah. And then not only did the world close down, I was feeling so much pain. I think I'm a pretty empathetic person. And it pains me to see people fighting over freaking toilet paper and fighting old women over toilet paper. that. And then not only am I seeing people panicking, I'm seeing artists panicking on social media.

And instead of trying to make people feel good about themselves, all they're doing is lifting up themselves. And I did the same thing. You know, I'm not exempt from that. Posting funny videos and trying to make everybody laugh and bring the attention back on them and these times. And I didn't feel good then. And then, a mom. Arbery got hunted down in Georgia. And then Brianna Taylor got hunted down in her own home. And then George Floyd was murdered for the world to see. And I was just hopeless, broken. Like music didn't even matter at that point in time. I wasn't even concerned about it, to be honest. I was more so like what the hell is happening in our country. And not only what the hell is

happening in our country, why aren't more people within my industry devastated by it? Because I am. And so the Friday before Blackout Tuesday, I was like, I have this song called Black like me that is literally whatever, but I know so many people are feeling right now. I'm just going to put it on my social media to my little bit of followers that I have. I'm not going to ask my record label permission to do so. I'm not going to make some plan and post it at 2.30 at the peak time when people are looking on Instagram. I literally just, I put it on Twitter and I put on Instagram without permission. Didn't know who might hear it or not. I thought, maybe just a thousand people would hear it or something and be like, you know, thank you.

And that's it. And it did something completely different. What happened? Well, I put it out in the response just from within my community and with my followers was just way bigger than I had anticipated. The response felt really good. And I called my management impassively, you know, to make everybody feel comfortable. I said, look, I know how the label feels about this song. I know it's not some, you know, country-friendly song right now. I said, but we really need to think about releasing Black like me in soon.

Like, I know we love, what are you going to tell her, which I do. It's just as important of a song. I said, but we really need to look into releasing Black like me. And they said, okay, we'll talk about it on Monday. Monday came. I was in L.A., so I was two hours behind my management. I wake up to like seven miss phone calls for my management. I'm like, what are you all doing?

Is everybody alive? Is everybody okay? And Spotify caught wind of it and wanted to put it on their playlist for Blackout Tuesday. I was like, well, it's ready. It's been mixed since December. It's yours. and they put it out and just a response was just crazy. I've never had a response to a song like that before.

Can you take me to the day that it comes out and what are you feeling? Well, the day that it comes out at some point, you know, my management had mentioned, well, you know, you might get death threats so we have to talk about security. And I'm like, what? Death threats for what? Like for me singing a song with the word black in it and you want it security? So the day that I released it, I honestly sat in my room the entire freaking day. I sat in bed and I was terrified.

And I wasn't terrified that people were going to like it, but I was terrified of letting people down. Because I know it's such a bold song. It's a protest song. It's a polarizing song, but I'm not, there are people and activists that are at ground zero every single freaking day fighting for justice that don't ever get attention. They're not getting pats on the back. They're getting yelled at. They're getting things said horribly to them. and I don't want to ever take away from that.

That is not my place. That is not what I'm trying to do. So I just didn't want to disappoint anybody and make them feel like I was trying to capitalize off of a moment because I'm absolutely not. You'd written it a year prior. Yeah. This was the moment to come out.

Yeah. And it's also worth noting, yes, this is a protest song, but this is a country song. And it's your, it's your life. It's my life. Little kid in a small town. I did my best just to fit in.

So you're invited to sing, what are you going to tell her at the ACMs? Yeah. What are you going to tell her when she figures out that all this time you built her up just so. While you weren't invited to sing Black like me, which would have been another moment.

What are you going to tell her is a song that says, if you've been marginalized, I am here for you, and this is your song. What was it like for you to get to share? What are you going to tell her on a stage to an empty crowd, but to millions? It was probably still really just as terrifying, to be honest. First of all, the ACMs, I want to express how grateful I am to them because they actually asked me to sing, what are you going to tell her at the ACMs for April? And I hadn't even released Black like me yet at that time.

And they had asked me, based on what are you going to tell her alone? So they, and I still, I didn't have as much going on. they had that much faith in me then. And they still committed to that now. And really committing to being more diverse within the awards. And they did honor this and gave me this opportunity. And I stood up there and you're sitting there next to Keith Irvin. You're just like, holy shit.

Keith Urban is playing the piano for me and he's nervous. That's great. I looked at him and he held up his hand and it was shit. shaking and I was like, wait a second. I'm the one that should be nervous. Like, you've done this and had a massive career over this. Like, what, you know? Do you think it's the power of the song?

I think he just wanted to support me the best that he could and wanted it to be special for me. And that's what a good man he is. And he loved the song and understood the importance of that moment. And I understood the importance of that moment. Did I realize I was the first African-American woman to sing her own, first of all, country singer to sing her own material on the ACMs? I'm still honestly on Cloud 9. You've had such a long, challenging experience getting to have your moment in country music.

Your moment has overwhelmingly arrived with great power in gusto. So, and this song is about dreams that may or may not occur. How do you feel about it in that context? Well, it's kind of like what you said at the very beginning of this conversation. We're still in a pandemic. There's still only one woman in the top 20 on country radio. There's still oppression happening within this industry. And so as much as it's like,

this is my moment to celebrate. Like, yes, I finally got that moment. I don't exactly know how to celebrate that because I'm still, to be honest, I'm still really sad about what's happening to a lot of my peers and people that I love that are cheering me on from the sidelines that I know that I've worked just as hard as I have.

They may have gotten more opportunities quicker, but we're all in the same boat. And so it's, it's a blessing and I accept it and I receive it and I'm grateful for it. I've waited so long. I've waited so long. I've waited 10 years for that moment. And I still felt sad a little bit. I like that your song does end unresolved in that way with this big question because... It's still so unresolved. And it's very clear that what I'm...

I'm hearing from you is that as joyous as it is to have gotten to share these songs with the world, it also feels insufficient. You don't want to be tokenized by country music. You want to bring more people into the fold. This is an insufficient but necessary step. Yes, absolutely. And there's so much work to be done. And, you know, it's so important.

even I as I'm trying to climb up in this career is to still encourage other women of color, not just black women, indigenous women, Mexican women, Latina, LBGTQ, IA plus to fill that they can sing whatever music they want to sing and be accepted. And that's the thing. It's not just about country music. It's the fact that we're all put into these unnecessary boxes because that's where people can make sense of us. There's just so much work to be done, and I want women to feel encouraged to want to sing whatever it is. I've met so many beautiful women that

were in the same boat as I was that wanted to sing country music but have zero contact, zero connections, have no way of getting there. And they felt brave enough to reach out to me. And I will give them every resource I have because I know what it feels like to not have that. There's a lot of work to be done. Switched-on-pop is made by Nate Sloan and me, Charlie Harding.

We're produced by Bridget Armstrong and Megan Lubin, engineered by Brandon McFarland, illustrations by Arras Gottlieve, and social media by Abby Barr. Our executive producers are Nashat Kurwa and Liz Kelly Nelson and we're a member of the Vox Media Podcast Network. You can catch us on social media at Switched-on Pop. Love getting your recommendations there. And you can listen to us on any podcast player anywhere,

and we'd love it if you would subscribe. And I think if you enjoyed this conversation, you'll really enjoy the next two. We're going to continue some adventures into the world of country music. Next week, we'll actually be chatting with that person that accompanied Mickey Gutten at the ACMs.

Keith Urban will be joining us on the show. So tune in next time. And until then, thanks for listening.