Switched on Pop - Modern Classics: PJ Morton made Nas’s Stevie Wonder dream come true

Episode Date: May 17, 2022

On all of his projects — Grammy-winning albums, playing keys with Maroon 5, fronting a full string section in his NPR Tiny Desk Concert — PJ Morton evinces his mastery at updating classic soul and R&B with modern sounds. His latest full-length release, Watch the Sun, sees him joined by some of his own sources of inspiration, Stevie Wonder and Nas. The three combined forces on Morton’s track “Be Like Water,” which recites an uplifting mantra over unsettled harmonies. The effect is hypnotizing. Morton spoke with Switched on Pop about what it was like to work with his heroes and to share overlooked modern classics from Wonder’s and Nas’s catalogs. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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It's free for iOS users. Welcome to Switched on Pop. I'm songwriter Charlie Harding. PJ Morton is one of the most respected musicians today. You've probably seen him playing Keys and Maroon Five at like the Super Bowl. And if you haven't, you should definitely be listening to his Grammy Award-winning R&B albums. He is a master of traditional soul and R&B music that he infuses with modern sounds. and he's so revered that he's gathered music heavyweights like Stevie Wonder and Nas to collaborate on his new album Watch the Sun.

They made a song together called Be Like Water. The song's chorus is kind of like a mantra that hypnotized me when I first heard it. I wanted to talk with PJ about what it's like to work with his heroes and to ask him about overlooked modern classics from Stevie and Nas that inspire PJ on his new album. Here's that conversation. PJ, thanks for chatting with me. Yeah, my pleasure. I'd like to start by getting right into the music and begin with a conversation about your single, Be Like Water.

Okay. I hear this duality. Uh-huh. The song starts with pretty dark and sinister, menacing kind of sounds. And then the title lyric comes in with a very uplifting kind of message. Could you unpack this duality for me? Yeah, I've always been a person that didn't need to be sad to write a sad song, didn't need to be happy to write a happy song.

So I don't think that that is what tells me what to write. There's something deeper in there that kind of tells me what to say. The drum pattern is what I had first. It was just kind of weird. And I was like, what would I do over this? Yeah, the snare, I feel like syncopates in a way that almost makes it feel like you're skipping a beat. You get a little lost for a second. Yeah, people think it's in a different time signature,

but it's just in 4-4 is, you know, bumba, uh, bu, b'at, out, bout, b'u-at, b'u-but. If you think about it, if it was a funk song, it would be like James Brown. Bunk-da-da-down-pote-at-but-but-bunt-ch-boom-ch-boom. But it's that, you know, be like water. It kind of put me in a trance initially.

I just had listened to a podcast on Taoism, and I was just really thinking about nature and how it connects to us and how we move. I was really having to be like water at this moment where it's like I don't know what's going to happen tomorrow. I don't know when we'll ever get back on the road. I don't know anything, really. Maybe I really do need to be like water because stressing is being counterproductive. Be like water as a Taoist mantra? Taoism or Taoism. I mean, they're interchangeable.

but they talk about things like, you know, never having a bucket 100% full because you're more productive. You'll probably lose half the water in the bucket by trying to fill it up so much. So you should probably put less in it, you know, and be like water comes from. Water takes shape of whatever it is and adjust. You know, sometimes it may take years to get through a walk, but it'll just stay there and literally make it through a solid rock, you know? The way that you sing your verse has this quality of you trying to almost forge a path through this difficult syncopated rhythm. You're anticipating every single beat. It's like you're almost trying to find your footing in this place.

It was a different song for me. I knew that it was just a little weird. So I'm like, I got to approach it differently. And let me see, where do I sit? What's the spaces, you know? I think by now you should know. And the chorus, which I always love, I think it's just a pop sensibility. But be like, what?

I smoothed it out in the chorus because it's like, yeah, all this complexity. Let's just sing this straight line on top of this and let it live on all of this complexity around it. You formed a true supergroup for this single. Oh, my goodness. You, Stevie Wonder, Nas. Yeah. What does assembling this team give to the song? What do each of you bring?

I literally wouldn't be doing it without Stevie, you know? He's the reason I said, oh, man, he sits at the keys and write songs and sings. I think I want to do that. So I ended up getting Stevie on it first. Just hearing him do those melodies I had in my head that are already so Stevie it just was like hearing Stevie do them was crazy. And then, of course, what comes to mind is me actually producing his vocals because I was a little bashful, you know, like initially. Like, he'll ask me like, that's cool.

And I was like, you know, yeah. He was like, you want me to do it again? And I'm like, yeah, I guess I do. He's like, hey, man, come on. Like, we're doing this. You don't, I'm not Stevie right now. I want the best for the record, which just was also a lesson in that. It's like the greats are the most open.

No wonder you're great. Your ego is not in the way of this. It's like you just want the greatness like I do. And I think because it was a weird kind of beat, I'm like, only Nas can like slice this up. I need a master. You know what I'm saying? I sent it to Nas.

And his right-hand guy was like, man, it's crazy you just sent this. We just got off of a panel and they asked Nas who's left for him to work with? Like, who would his dream be to work with? And he said, Stevie Wonder. And it's like, what? So I kind of like made his dream come true. And of course, collectively made mine come true. I mean, and his references to water, you know, aquatic and like, you know, it's like he's going through it.

Like, it's really a masterclass in rhyming and to be rhyming about being like water. In a queerest vernacular, aquatic, a splash of love quenching you with a dripping style more elevated than fat. It's pretty unusual that you. pull the beat away when a rapper comes in. And there's a way in which that really shows his gifts and rhythm to be without the beat, just strings, and he's holding the whole thing together. It's all continues to flow. The beat comes back in and, you know, he's just writing.

It falls right back in. Kind of like it don't exist. Just a figment of imagination. And wickedness, I'm not related situation looking at it lately with a wisdom of a man who made it. I'm like, nah, people have got to hear this. It's too distracting. had, honestly, it was a challenge because my MoG playing on his verse was the craziest in the whole song.

It was like, it was nuts. But I'm a selfless person when it comes to production. It's literally the song is the king. I don't put anything above the song, not my ego, not friends, not whoever's featured. It's like, we are serving the song. We're all servants here. And I was like, I got to take my amazing Moog playing out right here because it's in the way. Man, he just did not disappoint.

I mean, they're masters, literally masters, you know. For me, it gave me a confidence of knowing like, oh, man, these guys respect me enough to be on this record with me. That showed me, man, I kind of made it to some of my dreams, you know. It's a stand-up moment to get such talented folks coming together with heavyweights like Stevie and Nas. I'm curious if you feel like there are overlooked recordings for each of them that you view as modern classics. Well, it's funny. I mean, Secret Life of Plants comes to mind only because I recorded in Bugalus, Louisiana, where he recorded Secret Life of Plants. Oh, where Stevie recorded.

At the same studio, studio in the country, which was a studio this producer built in the 70s, just happened to be from Bugalusa. It's about two hours away from New Orleans. And somehow Stevie Wonder found it and recorded an album about plants, you know, for it. for a documentary. And I do think that that's a slept-on album just because it was left of center. But it's still that same beauty when you go back to it.

It's like, yeah, it was different. And it was coming after freaking songs in the key of life. So, like, what was going to compare to that? He was almost like, I probably need to talk about plants and take a break. You know, I just did my magnum opus.

Oh, I wish that I could come back as a flower. Oh, man, I love that song so much. But you know what I want to play? because this is the only song I can think of where Stevie sings falsetto. And it's a power flower. Yeah. It's a sleeper. Beauty.

It's a beauty. What are some of the things to stand out for you about that recording? To hear him in his falsetto, like, the whole song. He's maybe done some ad libs, and I've listened to a lot of Stevie. But I can't think of a song where he sings falsetto the whole time. And that's the thing that stands out to me. Also, like, the title, Powerflower.

That's a genius that can make flowers interesting, you know, and, like, tell the story of a flower's life in a soul song. Like, it's just not the norm. So, I mean, that's why that one's really a standout for me. He is connected on a deeper level, able to take topics that might not seem fitting for a pop song and then be like, oh, yeah, well, obviously, flowers give us all life. Yeah, yeah.

How beautiful is that? Yeah. Oddly enough, because it's about plants. organic things, it's the first time he started to use some digital recording. You even hear some of the digital like artifacts and stuff in the album. Because it was so early on. But that Stevie, though, always innovative. I mean, he's literally, he's still trying to teach himself stuff.

You know, I mean, he picked a harpeggie up, you know, like years ago just because he's like, oh, I'm going to play this. And I'm not only going to play it. I'm going to play it on an award show. Ain't no sunshine when she's gone. It's like, what? Like, you know you can stop, right? You know you can just do what you do.

But that is why he's who he is. That's awesome. How about a Oz track? I think King's Disease, his newer album. I think it might be all bad. Right, okay, so King's Disease, all bad, featuring Anderson Pock. It's all good till it's all bad. That's Anderson on the drums, you can tell.

Absolutely. Time passes by. I'm asking why. You mash my fly. No cap, no love. Trophy on candy, but I'm better without it. It's a dove my love, but I got to rerout it. It's a lottery is low.

Cool track. Yeah, man. Yeah, I think, you know, for me it's like, you know, hip hop is so young that we're just starting to see what our rock stars look like and how they can be relevant and how they can still be not look like they're old or, you know what I mean? Like, just be who they are. I think Nas is really showing that to be authentic and be able. to rap about things that still relate to someone who, you know, who isn't a teenager.

You know what I mean? I think it's awesome. And, like, that song moves me. Like, it's so soulful, you know, he's always been so musical. And his, you know, you can tell that he knows music. So, yeah, I would say that's a sleeper too, you know, where it just was a good vibe. Does the same thing that you did. Pulls the beat out from under him and it just keeps on going.

Yeah, it's true. It's true. This is a kid. First good morning, good night. Now she leave me on red. I'm disappointed. It's different chicks who want it. Can't lie for a minute.

This is great. What I want to do next is take a short break and then come back and listen to what's going on on the rest of your new album. Watch the Sun. Attention, Spotify. Has arrived on the new Good Girl Jasmine Absolute of Carolina Herrera.

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What does the title Watch the Sun communicate and how does it set the stage for the record? It's very related to Be Like Water. And that Taoism practice, just that thinking of taking note from, nature, you know. This album is maybe a clean split of love songs and life songs. I mean, you got please don't walk away. Biggest mistake, so lonely, but you got a little too heavy and my piece and be like water and watch the sun. But to me, I was trying to think of a title that spoke to it overall. And I feel like, you know, I was at a dark period in my relationship. And I think the whole world was at a dark period as far as not knowing what was happening. And so when it's dark in

any of those periods and any of those instances in life, if we just watch the sun, we know that we can at least make it to the next sunrise, you know, because when it's dark, it means that the sun is about to rise again. I wanted to get to listen to another song and we've looked at the life song side of the album. We've got the love song side of the album. Maybe some. heart-wrenching songs here. Sure, sure. And you've got a single, Please Don't Walk Away. The song starts in this very harmonically ambiguous place.

It's never gone this far. I'm kind of wandering. Like, if things feel almost a little lost here, the lyric is about the concern of love being lost. Yeah. And musically, we're never kind of finding home. You keep bending around all these chords that never quite resolved. Yeah. You know, I think that probably was what was happening in life.

You know, I think it just was reflecting that. This is another song that started with the beat, oddly enough, you know. But it was, I just had there and I created that loop. You know, I had that going forever before I had any keys, any lyrics, because I just wanted to create moods before I even got to the songs. And a year or two prior, my wife and I, we just were, we had challenging times, you know. And so I'm a type of songwriter where I kind of got to go through it to process and then write. I'm not really good at writing while I'm going through it.

I have to like be present in it. And so when I started to write this is thankfully the pandemic helped us, you know, because I wasn't on the road so much. And we actually got to spend time and really deal with everything that we were dealing with. You know, we've been married 13 years since kids, really. So I think the confusion, that non-resolved feeling, it just happened somehow in the chords I started to play. And that's the first song I wrote on the album, like lyrically and everything. It's almost like you have these ideas, and it's very rare. They come out how you hear them.

But that one just was like everything is in its rightful place. And I was just super grateful for it because it's hard to write simple songs, you know? I mean, they're the hardest to write is the simplicity. and still be able to get the, you know, get the feeling through there. Usually when I'm writing, I believe in melody first. I believe that melody has power even without words. I mean, we know that from instrumental music or whatever. Melody is almost the most powerful to me.

It speaks to somewhere in the heart that words can't even do, you know. So I did, I do like these kind of mumbo tracks when I'm writing the melody. And I had it for a while and I went to cut it. I went to start writing it, and I sang it a little too aggressive, or not even aggressive, just in my normal voice. I had to, the first time ever on a record, approach it in a different way. It's like softer than I normally sang. So I remember cutting it and saying, man, something's missing.

Like the mumble track sounds better than the thing I'm actually just recorded, you know? And so I remember waking up in the country the next day and saying, all right, Let's start from the beginning, Reggie, my engineer, and that's what you hear now. It sounds kind of like maybe very subconsciously. Some of that Power, Flower, Stevie thing. Yeah, maybe. Is in there, just that the real soft, soft approach. I didn't even know I had that voice, really, because I never used that.

I never have to, really. So it was really a new challenge for me, which was exciting, you know, because I'm so used to doing everything I do. I could do it, eyes closed. So when a new challenge comes, it's like an opportunity to grow. So I was like, all right, let me try to sing it like this, you know? I also caught how that melody in the chorus, there's some way in which that feeling of like,

please don't walk away. The way that the melody and the chords are interacting, it's like they're constantly kind of chasing each other. Like they're almost walking away. Like, no, no, no, no, please. Like, come back, come back. Yeah. And I just want to play it for a second.

All right. Right there. Yeah. Every time we think that we've got it, it's like, no, no, no, no. It just keeps slipping away. I remember playing those chords. Like, I knew it when I did it. I was just, like, was looking around, like, somebody here would happen?

Like, the marriage is a real thing on this song. It hits me the same way every time. So it's something to it. And apparently something far beyond me, you know. What are your hopes and aspirations for this music? going out. I hope that soul music is pop music, you know, in some form again. I mean, it was. I mean, if you can't leave the door open, it's a pop soul song. I mean, it's no doubt popular. So I think if we can continue to do that and have those records not take over, but just be in the

mix, you know, just the balance of it. Just, I'm happy that it showed that, yeah, this can also live here just like that can and that can. Because I do think we're at our best when it's all of those things. You know? It's all different types of things that we can choose from. That's the way I grew up

listening to music is not being closed off to anything. I'll say that when I put your record on driving the other day, I always like to do my first listen to an album on the road. love driving with music, yeah. And 30 seconds into song one, I was just like, oh, dang, groove wise, melody wise, harmony wise, lyrics wise, I just, I kept hitting moments of surprise and wonder and delight.

It's hard for an album to hit me like that and really want to be like, I'm going to give you 40 minutes of my attention. It's a real thing. You hooked me right in. Wow. Thank you so much, man. That's the whole thing right now is that I tell, you know, when I talk to young, songwriters and stuff, it's like, yo, this is the best time in the world to be a creative. Like, you got more access than we've ever had to get your music out to people.

But at the same time, it's the most crowded ever. Because we can all get there. You know, we can all be in the space. So literally the only thing that's going to separate you is you being yourself, because that's all you got working for you that's different from someone else and allowing you to cut through the noise. So that's just really important. me, and there's some artists that always make me stop. DeAngelo, he's going to get my hour of time, you know, before, because there's some people where it's like, you're bringing a message,

you're bringing something a little deeper than just good music for me to listen to. Kendrick Lamar does that for me, where it's like, no, we got to stop for a minute. We know that he's bringing something deeper. And I think it says something to us when we know that the artist is taking a little more time to craft this. And like a little more time to say something that is meaningful, I think we tend to stop and say, all right, you did. You did give more time. Let me give you to that. Now, it doesn't always happen that way. But that is my prayer. You know, like with this music, it's disruptive enough to say, all right, wait, this is different. You're not writing any trends. You're doing the thing, which is the most you. Yeah. And.

And a lot of the music here, please don't walk away, slow. It's quiet. It's like, it's not the thing that grasps your attention by being loud and obnoxious. It's something about the contrast to how I expect people to grab my attention. It makes me lean in. It makes me listen. Sure. And I really appreciate that you have, you talked about your approach to melody, you have a real pop sensibility.

You have produced and been on some of the biggest pop records of the last decade. And you know how a pop song works, a top 40 song works, and you apply a lot of that thinking into songs that are maybe trying to work with you on a slightly deeper level. Maybe challenge you a little bit more. And I think that's, I mean, you know, that's the highest level when you, I mean, when we talk about like the thrillers and, you know, you're literally talking about the most complex music, orchestration, all of this stuff. And you got this top line that is just a lullaby, you know, like you can't help but sing.

I think that's the goal. That's what I'm always chasing, you know? And I think there, like you say, it's something about the audacity to be like, I know what's hot out here. I'm just going to go and do what moves me. And I hope that it moves you too. But if it doesn't, I'm sorry, I just had to make what I, you know, there's something to that. So I'm just grateful that I've now brave enough to really not care in a real way, not like saying I don't care, but like really not caring. Just all my goal is to make something, I just want to impress my friends. Well, you've made friends with some very

spectacular people, your heroes. Word, absolutely, man, for real. PJ, it's been such a pleasure getting to share this record. Thank you so much for chatting with me. Dude, thank you for listening, man, and listening deeply. I'm honored that you take the time, man, and great talking to you. Switched on Pop is engineered by Brandon McFarlane, edited by Jolie Myers, Community Management by Abby Barr, illustrations by Iris Gottlie,

our executive producers on Ashok Kerwa and Hanna Rosen, a member of the Vox Media Podcast Network, and a production of Vulture. You can find us on socials at Switched On Pop, and you can get the full show notes at switchedonpop.com. We'll be back again next Tuesday, and until then, thanks for listening. Convierte your passion in a business with Shopify

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