Switched on Pop - Modern Classics: Seal - Kiss From a Rose

Episode Date: March 14, 2023

“Kiss From a Rose” is one of the most unusual number one hits of all time. Seal’s song can’t decide if it’s in minor or major, it uses an old-fashioned waltz rhythm, and its lush orchestration and elaborate vocal harmonies support mysterious lyrics about a “greying tower alone on the sea.” Seal himself wasn’t sure about the song, and needed some convincing to include the composition on his 1994 album SEAL II. But once director Joel Schumacher decided to use the track for the end credits of the film Batman Forever, the song went global and has remained a cultural phenomenon ever since. Ahead of his upcoming 30th anniversary tour for the albums SEAL I and SEAL II, we speak with the singer and songwriter about the enduring appeal of “Kiss From A Rose.” Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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A light hits the gloom on the gray. And now your rose is in bloom. Welcome to Switch John Pop. I'm musicologist Nate Sloan. I'm songwriter Charlie Harding. And this is modern classics kiss from a rose. Ooh. What are you bringing me, Nate?

Close your eyes again, Charles. It's the mid-90s. You're young Jewish boy. I'm not. No, you are. You have to use your imagination, okay? Okay, just like this exercise. You're a young Jewish boy.

You're going to get me canceled. Balled up into your fist is the money you've saved over the past three months from allowance and various chores. $15.99. $15, yeah. You're descending the escalator in the HMV record store on 86th and Lexington Avenue in Manhattan, and you're making your way to the new releases to buy a record that has your favorite song of all time. You find the jewel case, the all-white background, the naked image of the artist seal on the cover, his arms outstretched, as if welcoming you to come on this sonic voyage with him, and then your eyes travel to the upper right corner of that CD case,

and you see the price tag. 1699. No. We have to go haggle. This is a corporate mega chain, Charlie. There is no haggling to be done. What do we do? What you do, Charlie, is...

Shake down your parents' wallet. What you do, Charlie, is find another one of your favorite bands of the moment, and their album is only 1099. It's, of course, Hootie and the Blowfish. Such a baby Because the dolphins make me cry That might be two-thirds the price of seal But I don't think it's two-thirds of the song

I think it's definitely another modern classic I agree At the time This was a crushing experience For my young psyche As you can imagine The dolphins made you cry But I think in the intervening 20 years of therapy

I've successfully processed it It's big of you Kiss from a Rose, though, Charlie. This was an inescapable song in the mid-90s, as you may recall. Do you have a kiss from a rose memory, Charles? Yeah, I definitely do. I remember being in my living room, coming home after school, turning on VH1. Because I feel like this was more of a VH1 song than an MTV song.

No Shade VH1. And I watched VH1 when I was a kid. And it wasn't the main demo. And I just picture seal arms shooting up in the air very barely draped in clothing. The bat signal shining behind him, yeah. Yeah. And launching into a chorus with a song that I've never heard anything like. And I don't think I have since.

This song was an unexpected hit after it was featured. in the cinematic classic Batman Forever directed by Joel Schumacher. Not sure that that one's got great Rotten Tomato reviews. Batman Forever. Yeah, that's a 39%. Great song. I don't know about that movie, though. But we're not here to debate the merits of the campy costume classic Batman Forever.

We are here to understand why this song, which as you pointed out, kind of unusual in its lyrics, in its music, became this unexpected hit, and furthermore, why it's lasted as this recognizable, even iconic song, 30 years since its release. How has it had that staying power, Charlie, how has it become a modern classic? That's what I want to try and answer. Honestly, I'm very excited because I've never put much thought into this song. It's just always washed over me like a kiss from a rose and why does that even mean what does it mean charlie let's get right into it let's get to the question that has been vexing listeners for multiple decades what is a kiss from a rose on the gray okay i mean a kiss from a rose feels like it's got

two meanings you have the sweetness and the beauty of the rose but then of course you have the danger of the thorn that could prick you uh the gray is the unknown existential crises and melancholy of life? I don't know. First of all, it's not Kiss from a Rose on the grave. Right. With a V-grave. Okay.

You're making it sound pretty obvious, but I think I and a lot of other people, until I was preparing this episode, Charlie, and even though, as you know, I'm a Kiss from a Rose superfan, I did not realize that was the actual lyric. But it makes sense because the imagery of putting a rose on a grave is seared into people's mind. So yeah. Thank you.

Yes. I appreciate that. It's the appropriate connection. Is the gray just the color of Batman's suit? Was this song written for Batman? No, this song was written way back in the late 1980s. Seal recorded it on a four-track recorder layering his voice multiple times to create this Acapella Demo, and it wasn't until he was recording his second album that he brought the recording

to his collaborator and arranger Trevor Horn. Super producer Trevor Horn, a member of the band The Buggles of Video Killed, the Radio Star Fame. And then it was released on the album, and then Joel Schumacher heard it, the director of Batman Forever, and included it in the end credits of the movie, and then it became a massive hit. So it's a very circuitous kind of route to the success that we now maybe take for granted. Okay, that's all nice and well, but it doesn't tell me anything about what the gray is. Well, Charlie, if you really want to know what that means, you're going to have to wait until later in the show. I'm going to build some suspense here, okay?

But suffice it to say, these lyrics are mysterious. Is that fair? Yes. There's an air of sort of gothic mystery about this song that lends itself to ambiguity and open interpretation. Makes it work for a soundtrack that if you had told me it was written for the Batman movie, be like, oh, makes sense because I could see it in that place. But as compelling as these lyrics may be, I don't think they would implant themselves in our collective consciousness. if the music of Kiss for Marose didn't also support this mysterious ambiance. And so I want to go through some of the ways that this song creates an air of mystery and timelessness.

And the first thing I think has to do with Seale's voice and his vocal arrangements throughout this song. Because this song is a showcase for the astonishing. vocal talent of the artist we know as SEAL from the very first notes. It's almost like he's his own string section. You've got the da-da-da-da-da-da. And in the background, he's got the bump-bump-bun like pizicado strings. It's very orchestrated. I love that, Charles.

Yeah, it's like he's transforming his solo voice into a choir of seals, a multitude of seals. And doing so very much in a choir kind of way. Not a traditional pop, I'm just going to layer myself a dozen times to sweeten it and make it sound bigger and cooler. It sounds very coral. He's in a chorus and he has a voice that is indelible. His voice has texture. It's got grit. It's got a little kind of smokiness to it.

You hear it at the beginning of the song and you're like, hello. Who are you? Now Charlie, indulge me. What is the very first syllable that Seal sings on this song? I think the first syllable is ba. Very good, Charles. Batman? Stop with the Batman.

We're beyond Batman. Sorry. Ba. Yeah. Okay. Good. You have a sharp ear because a lot of people cover the song and they don't sing that. They sing la la or they sing yeah la la la or da.

He's specific in the consonants and vowels that he's choosing. Yes. Bay-ya-ya is kind of surprising. It's not the usual syllable choice for a wordless hook. Yeah. You know, if you think of a song like, hey Jude, for instance. What does Paul McCartney sing? Nanas.

Nanas. A lot of nannas. A lot of nannas in pop history. Oftentimes wordless hooks are the things that you are meant to sing along to, and so you choose the simplest sound that you can. La la la, nah, nah, nah, that kind of a thing. But we already established Seals doing something different here. This is him arranging his voice into this sort of orchestra.

And so each sound that he makes is almost like the articulation of an instrument. So using Bay Yahya already, whether we're conscious of it or not, I think part of us is going, huh, that's different. That's unusual. It's a little mysterious. And sticking with this intro, there's something else mysterious going on. And it has to do with the harmony of the song. The very first chord we hear, that first, Bay, yaya, is a G minor chord.

But no sooner has he sung that G minor chord, then we move to a G major chord. And when we get to that last, yeah, it's really. Major. Shifting between the parallel minor and major in the same opening phrase. Disorienting. I'm sure there's one or two precedents in the world, but that's very strange, super disorienting. You don't know how you're supposed to feel. Am I happy?

Am I sad? Am I somewhere in between? Exactly, Charlie. Is it a kiss from a rose, or is it on the gray, perhaps? We don't, we don't know. Is this song in binder or a major? That's like most songs establish that very clearly at the outset. And this one's like, no, no, it's in between.

Okay. And then, Charlie, if that wasn't enough, what happens right afterwards? We get one of the most emotive, mysterious orchestral instruments that you can include in a pop song. Right here. A whiny sound of an oboe. Wow. I mean, I don't... Who's playing an obo in a pop song? That's cool.

I don't know why you need to call it whiny, Charles. Nasly? I would say it's the piercing plaintive double reed of the gorgeous oboe. Sorry, all you oboists out there. Yes, but you are exactly right. It is an oboe. Not surprisingly, the cousin of the oboe, the English horn, even though the song was arranged by a literal English horn.

Trevor Horn. He's British and his last name is Horn. Oh my gosh. Okay. But the oboe, that's another kind of mysterious instrument to encounter here because it's not something you typically hear in a pop song. And it's reinforcing this idea of how I'm hearing his vocal arrangement. This is not just pop instrumentation.

It feels like we're, going to the symphony. There's very few appearances of the oboe on the history of pop hits. I mean, we've got Sonny and shares, I Got You Babe. I got you, babe. And there's Art Garfunkel's Bright Eyes. The 60s were into this very pastoral, plaintive sound that the oboe is fitting for, yeah. The Garfunkel starts from the 70s, but a point well taken in the 1990s and since really, you do not hear oboe on pop hits. So another kind of mysterious element here.

Some oboes is going to clap back at you, I'm sure. But yeah, please continue. I welcome it. I welcome it. Oboists, those who play the chord, Angle, come at me. I'm here for you. Let's keep listening to Kiss from a Rose. Let's get into the verse.

And Charlie, tell me what you're hearing in terms of the rhythm of this song. And specifically the underlying meter. What is the pulse of this song? There used to be a grain tower alone on the sea on the dark side of me. I feel like I'm hearing things in groups of three. One, two, two, two, three. One, two, three. One, three, two, two, three.

Not very common for us to hear songs on the pop charts in three, four. Very unusual, Charles. This is like waltz time. This is like 19th century Viennese, blue Danube waltz time. Like, that is very strange. You do not encounter top 10 hits written in this kind of antiquated triple meter waltz time. Okay. This is getting just so strange.

Obo, choir like arrangement, waltz time. This is not a pop song. What is going on? No, it's something else. I don't know how to classify this song. Charlie it's got almost some medieval kind of touches in certain places it has vocal layering that's reminiscent of a madrigal there's a way that this song reminds us of the 1990s I think and you know maybe you have a core memory associated with it as well but at the same

time the song seems to exist out of time it's it's not tethered to a specific moment and perhaps that is why it has had this staying power. It's this ability to last through the ages and to float above all the fast-changing styles of the music industry. This song sort of exists apart from all that. What's the Latin term for that sui generous? Am I saying that right?

I don't know. I don't speak Latin. Of course you don't. Why do we even have you around, Charlie? What do you do? You don't speak Latin. I'm not a small Jewish boy. I said young Jewish boy, Charlie, not small. Okay. I mean, I think I was pretty average size for my age. But okay. So hopefully we've answered a question about why the song resonates with us, but we haven't answered another question, which is, what do these lyrics mean? And if we're going to do that, we're going to have to go to the source, to the Oracle, to the musician who is about to embark on a national tour celebrating the almost 30th anniversary of the original. this song with the original arranger and music director Trevor Horn.

No way. And that, of course, is Seal himself. Get out of here. What? Maria, you have a podcast now and you need to start acting like it. What's the first step as a podcaster? Well, you have to ask lots of questions. I'm Maria Sharpova and I'm hosting a new podcast called Pretty Tough.

Every week, I'm sitting down with trailblazing women at the top of their game to discuss ambition, work ethic, and the ups and the ups and downs that come on the path to achieving greatness. I have a few pretty tough questions for you. Okay. Ready? Ready. Do not sugarcoat something for me. No. No. No. We'll dive into their stories and get valuable insights from top executives, actors, entrepreneurs, and other individuals who have inspired me so much in my own journey. Pretty tough is your front row seat to the women who have demonstrated the power in being unapologetic in their pursuits. I hope you'll join us. New episodes drop Wednesdays on YouTube or in your favorite podcast app. My name is Seal.

I'm a recording artist. I'm not quite sure what else I would add to that. Seal, you're about to embark on a world tour celebrating the 30th anniversary of the album, Seal One and Seal 2. And one of the songs you'll be performing is Kiss from a Rose. What do you think has kept people? engage with this song for so long?

I mean, if I knew the answer to that, I'd write a lot more of them, wouldn't I? I think it's a decent song. Obviously, I think a fair amount of it is luck. And also, it's an unusual song in that there isn't anything else that sounds quite like it. So it kind of against all odds. First of all, it's a waltz.

And up until Kiss from Rose, there weren't many Walters that made it into popular music. I once heard someone describe it as this kind of strange medieval type madrigal with R&B stops in it. So I thought that was quite funny. It shouldn't really work if you start to get analytical about it, but somehow it does. So I think if one is lucky enough to break through, so to speak, with a song like that, it tends to have legs. And because nothing sounds like it, it tends to not get old. There is so much a man can tell you, so much he can say You, my power, my pleasure, my pain

Like a grown addiction that I can't show you. Do you remember the act of putting these melodies, these lyrics together? I just received a four-track recording studio, a porter studio actually, four-track Porter Studios were these things that we used to do demos on back in the day where you would take a cassette tape which generally speaking had two sides and a B side and you were able to split a standard cassette tape up into four tracks you'd record three tracks whether it'd be drums bass and guitar and then you'd bounce those over to the fourth track and then it would free up the next tracks.

And you continue that process until you sort of pushed it to its limit. So I just got this machine and I couldn't play an instrument at the time. So I was trying to figure out how it worked and I decided to, I think it was about 16 tracks of vocals. I ended up recording on this machine, on this Porter studio to try and figure out how it worked. I guess I imagined what an orchestra would do. And so, you know, you have the... I guess that would be an oboe or a string part. And then you'd have the pitticato strings.

Essentially, I ended up recording multiple tracks of vocals, as I said, around 16, and they were all meant to emulate an orchestra and that is perhaps why there is this kind of elaborate vocal arrangement on Kiss from a Rose, which I guess later on became a trademark in working with my producer and mentor Trevor. That was always something that we focused on, was doing lots and lots of backing vocals and harmonic layering. in. So is this a method of composition that you have replicated since then, or do you find yourself

approaching the act of composition in a different way, maybe with a guitar, a piano, some sort of musical accompaniment? If you don't play an instrument and you're a singer, I think it's just a sort of natural progression where you try and emulate certain instruments or what you think. or what you would want instruments to do. And it's something that it's a habit I adopted really early. And I guess continued with that approach to a harmonic structure and writing songs in general.

One of my big influences were when I was getting it together, when I was getting my songwriting career together, was Crosby, Stills and Nash. They have really beautiful harmonic, melodies, but also they're quite rhythmic. If you take something like carry on or sweet Judy blue eyes, there's a lot of the vocals in it that they're not only beautiful harmonies, but they're quite percussive. I don't know whether I was listening to CSN at the time of Kiss from a Rose. I think Kiss from Rose came before my listening to CSN. Actually, that's not entirely true.

because I remember Alan, who gave me one of my first jobs, a seamstress or a seamster. I don't know, what would you call a male seamstress. I used a sewing machine. And he used to play a lot of CSN. He kind of introduced me to Cosmich-Silson-Nash and Joni Mitchell. So, yeah, I probably thinking about it now, KISSFRAZ was probably influenced by CSN. Love is coming. Maybe that's where that love or that certainly the attraction to melody,

to that kind of style of layering came from. The arrangement that you mentioned of this song is a big part of the song's success, its recognizability. I wonder if you remember your reaction when you feel. first heard Trevor Horn's orchestral arrangement of this song. Like everything that Trevor does, the first reaction is one of wow. Boy, he's such a genius that it's almost impossible not to be bowled over when you first hear something. And he's kind of like this mad alchemist. You give him a load of ingredients,

and he somehow just puts them together in this way that's really rather magical. My issue was, with the song itself. I didn't particularly care for the song that much my debut offering. I liked it, but it wasn't one of my favorites, and it wasn't how I felt that I wanted to be portrayed as an artist. I wasn't particularly that fond of the song, but I was definitely bowled over by what Trevor had done with it, his production and his arrangement. As you point out, this is a very unusual time signature to encounter in recent popular music.

I've always loved kind of uncommon time signatures, not to say that 3-4 is uncommon, but as it pertains to pop music or popular music, I've always loved odd or let's say lesser used time signatures. I think driven in metaphors is 7-8,

and I've got fast changes is an odd time signature. I've always reveled at the opportunity to sing across an odd time signature because I actually find it quite freeing when you're not being anchored by the one, you know, across 4-4. I've always found it quite freeing because you can, it's easy to lose yourself. You know, I generally haven't had any difficulty finding my way back in as the phrase is turning. So Kiss from a Rose, I guess, it just seemed nice. normal to come up with something like that.

And I really appreciate your own insights into the song because they're helping me understand it, the intricacy of it, the timeless elements, or maybe out of time is a better word. The waltz meter, the baroque, almost madrigal, vocal textures, the thick, 16-part multi-tracked harmonies. It doesn't sound like the 90s, say, you know, in the way that other songs from that era do. It exists a little bit out of time. It's unmoored. Perhaps that's what allows it to survive and speak to people at different moments and time in different places and have them draw their own meaning from it.

Because it's not tethered to a certain moment or place or even concrete feeling necessarily. So that could be a recipe for longevity. Well, that's also a kind of an ethic that Trevor instilled in me. He was always very conscious of not putting things, whether they be sounds or chronological references in music that dated it. He avoided timestamps, sonic ones too, like melodic timestamps or production. timestamps and he was always you know why make a record when you can make a timeless record that was

his attitude and so he kind of steered me away from ever trying to do things like you know anything that was fashionable at the time you know if you were to ask me something like what's the best part of what you do of the actual music making aspect of what you do what's your favorite part is it making records is it, you know, singing in the studio? Is it writing? I would say the collaborative aspect of it, the opportunity to work with these great players that I keep talking about,

because the name on the marquee is kind of secondary to the collaborative aspect of making a record. Like when I think of those early records that I made, I don't necessarily think of where I wrote them or me in the studio or, I think of when I was actually collaborating with the musicians, players, these great musicians that I've had, just incredible fortune of working with, that's the bit that sticks out.

That's when it is divine. Sure, I get a kick out of coming up with songs and writing things, and that's quite emotional whenever that happens. If it's any good, it's emotional. But it's the magic of when you start to hear people, interpret what you've done because with it, they bring their own experiences and they're starting to bring this color into it. It takes my breath away, and it's the real reason why I continue to do to still make music. I'm not really interested otherwise. If you took away the collaborative

aspect, I'd do something else that involved collaboration, and then I'd kind of write music, but I wouldn't do it for as my mainstay. That's a beautiful testament to the power of this art form. And I totally agree. Sometimes I think to myself, why am I practicing by myself? It's too, in order to someday be able to play with someone. Got to do it. You can't do that. And it's, I don't know.

I'm not so into it. You've got to be able to make magic with something. Because that's when it becomes, like if you listen to Kiss from a Rose or if you listen to, you know, any of my music, Yes, okay, my voice and fine, okay, yes. But what really gets me about that music is I hear the souls of everyone on there, not just the musicians, but everyone who was present, the people around, the people that were in our lives, not just my life, but the musician's lives.

I hear all of that. That's the soul. That's what makes the record, this thing that you can't duplicate. I always say that records sound like the time you had making them. So who was there in the old days of like the tea boy? Like who used to make the tea? You know, who was the tape up? Who looked after you at the house?

Who did you have conversations with? What did you talk about? Those are the things that end up on the record. That's the energy that's unquantifiable. You can't see it, but you can feel it. That's the spirit of a record. Thank you so much for sharing these insights and reflections on an incredible piece of musical culture. Thank you, brother.

Lots of fun. Charlie, we're back. Yeah. And you're consternated. You're vexed. You're perplexed. You're downright appleplice. because I did not ask Seale about what what the song means.

You didn't get the one thing we needed to know. What's the gray? Now, I didn't ask him because Seal has said publicly, I've been avoiding explaining this for almost 30 years. I'm not about to start now. And I'm not about to ask him. And so here's my answer for you, Charlie. This song means whatever you wanted to.

And that's why Seal doesn't want to tell us. because he wants you to create your association with Kiss from a Rose, create your story. And as long as people continue to do that, this song is going to last for another 30 years and more. That's the magic. Seal is so much more than Kiss from a Rose. He's one of the best voices of his generation. He's got countless hits. I'd love to know what other SEAL songs you are digging.

Hit us up on social media at Switchdown Pop on Twitter. and on Instagram, what are you loving in the Seal Catalog? You can find more episodes of modern classics and everything else we do here, Switchdown Pop at our website, switchonpop.com, and basically anywhere you listen to podcasts. We'll be back next Tuesday with a brand new episode exploring the fascinating music of the band 100 Gecks. And of course, there's our team. Switched on Pop is produced by Rihanna Cruz, engineered by Brian McFarland, edited by Art Chung, community management by Abby Barr, illustrations by Iris Gottlieb, our executive producers on Ashok Karwa and Hano Rosen,

or a member of the Vox Media Podcast Network, and a production of Vulture. So I guess we'll see you next Tuesday. And until then, thanks for listening.