Switched on Pop - Pop’s Worst Kept Secret ft. Emily Warren

Episode Date: June 22, 2021

In 1974 country music, singer songwriter, Dolly Parton got wind that Elvis Presley wanted to record her new song, “I Will Always Love You.“ According to Dolly, the deal fell through when Elvis's manager demanded 50% of the publishing revenue. Dolly refused, released the song herself, and years later arranged a more equitable deal with Whitney Houston, who of course made it a massive hit.  It's a juicy bit of industry history that actually speaks more to our current reality than you might think. What Elvis’s management did, demand a cut of the publishing revenue on top of the money he'd already make from album sales and live shows, is not an anomaly.  Songwriter, Emily Warren knows this all too well. Emily's a songwriter and performer in Los Angeles. You've heard her on the show before in part, because she's written some huge hits, including Dua Lipa’s “New Rules” and The Chainsmokers “Don’t Let Me Down.”  What happened to Dolly in ‘74 has happened a lot to Emily. She says that countless times, after an artist decides to record a song of hers that she wrote without any involvement with the artist, she'll get an email from the artist's management team, asking for a cut of her publishing. She says the emails are polite, but the mask and implied arrangement: give us a cut of the publishing they say, or we won't put out the song.  So Emily's started talking to other established songwriters she knows, Tayla Parx, Ross Golan, Justin Tranter, and Savan Kotecha—they've all been asked to give up publishing. Together they decided they wanted to do something about this practice. So they formed an organization called The Pact, a group of music professionals who refuse to give publishing away for songs where artists do not contribute. Their goal is to make the music business more equitable for the creative laborers. Songs Discussed Dolly Parton - I Will Always Love You Whitney Houston - I Will Always Love You Dua Lipa - New Rules The Chainsmokers - Don’t Let Me Down Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Euporia of Calvin Klein, the new collection Elixir, three new elixires perfume intense, solar, magnetic, ball. Pulp, on the banner, do the quiz, and discover your fragrance, euphoria. Welcome to Switched on Pop, I'm songwriter Charlie Harding. There's a classic missed connection in pop music you may have heard of. In 1974, country music singer-songwriter, Dolly Parton, got wind that Elvis Presley wanted to record her new song,

I Will Always Love You. According to Dolly, the deal fell through when Elvis's manager demanded 50% of the publishing revenue. That's the money reserved for the person or people who wrote the song. Dolly refused, released the song herself, and years later arranged a more equitable deal with Whitney Houston, who of course made it a massive hit. It's a juicy bit of industry history that actually speaks. more to our current reality than you might think. What Elvis' management did demand a cut of the publishing revenue on top of the money he'd already make from album sales and live shows

is not an anomaly. It's how too many people in music do business these days. Songwriter Emily Warren knows this all too well. Emily is a songwriter and performer in Los Angeles. You've heard her on the show before, in part because she's written some huge hits, including Duolipa's new rules. And the chain smokers don't let me down. What happened to Dolly in 74 has happened a lot to Emily and it happened again recently.

When we spoke a few weeks ago, she told me that inevitably, after an artist decides to record a song of hers that she wrote without any involvement with the artist, she'll get an email from the artist's management team asking for a cut of her publishing. She says the emails are polite, but they mask an implied arrangement. Give us a cut of the publishing, they say, or we won't put out the song. So Emily started talking to other established songwriters she knows, and immediately it became clear that not only does basically every songwriter get pressured into giving up money this way, but it's contributing to a much larger problem of songwriters really struggling to survive financially in an industry that runs on their creative output. So Emily and a lot of other songwriters are starting to fight back.

To understand why or how this practice even got started, I think we need to understand more about the artist-songwriter relationship, which means we need to start with one of the worst kept secrets in pop music. The secret is most artists don't write all their songs. That's Emily, you're hearing. We met up outside her house, so you'll hear some yard noise and birdsong when she's talking. Very few artists are really in their bedroom like playing piano and writing the song by themselves

that's really uncommon they co-write a lot of their songs almost every artist takes outside songs and it's kind of like a no one wants to know that why do you think that's so taboo? I think like the idea of an artist is meant to be like they write their own songs and it's all like coming from their heart and their story

it's like you want to see the artist's name on there you want to know that like it's really their story and their words if you're connecting with them. There's probably a lot of reasons why people work with songwriters. Could you sort of unpack some of those why the songwriting community is so essential to pop music? First of all, artists have to wear like a million different hats. They have to go on tour. They have to do PR.

They have to do brand partnerships. They have to do photo shoots. Like an artist's schedule is like insane. And generally they'll have like a few days here and there to squeeze in going into the studio and actually making the music. Songwriters are writing every day of the year. So I can write 300 songs and then be like, these are my three best ones. I'm going to send this to an art.

Like, you know, our odds are so much better because it's all we're doing. And actually, even artists who write most of their album are mostly doing it with writers, people who can, like, push them in a certain direction and help them come up with lines. And like nine times out of ten, I would say it's a collaboration. But there's also got to be like a creative benefits.

Right. I'm curious from your perspective, do you write differently on your own totally solo than you do when you're co-writing with other people? 100%. I started as an artist, so I came from a place where I was like, I'll never write with somebody else. And then as soon as I started collaborating, I was like, whoa, this is amazing. Like two brains can come up with something one brain can't. Like I can throw something out. And then a co-writer can be like, oh, what if we try it like this? And what if we do it like this? And that collaboration, which I'm now obsessed with, I just think, is amazing. And a lot of artists have, like, a writer that they work with. That's the person that brings their best stuff out of them. A lot of my role as a songwriter, especially when I'm with artists, is, like, really pushing artists to, like, talk about things.

They wouldn't necessarily just say on their own and asking tough questions and kind of getting to a vulnerable place that I think for all of us is hard to get to when it's just you. like it's hard to ask yourself tough questions. And I found that now, like, writing by myself, I find it really hard because it's like I need probing or I need to probe someone else. Like the idea that that's, like you said, taboo, like I don't really understand why that's become a bad thing. Like, people have always taken songs from other people, always collaborated with songwriters. I know I don't care if the artist wants people to know, think they wrote the song.

That's not really like a point of tension for me. I kind of get it if they want to sit in an interview and say. say they wrote it, that's fine. But what it's turned into from an artist wanting to get credit on a song to suddenly like demanding publishing is like it's just gotten so out of hand. So artists working with songwriters, that's not the problem. Artists taking credit for songwriting to appear more authentic might not look great, but that's not the main issue here. I think it's more when you like literally did not do any writing or anything that contributed to the writing.

and you're being like, I want an equal share. That's when it's like, but you didn't, but you can't. Emily says managers will come up with all sorts of reasons why their artists deserve a cut. Here, she's using the Dolly example from before. This is an argument they can make. If Elvis Presley doesn't sing it, like, who cares? You're not making any money off this song.

It's his voice that's going to make this song crazy. That's the argument that everyone has been making. Like, my artist is adding so much value. They deserve 20%. They deserve 15% whatever it is. Asking for a percentage of publishing when you don't contribute to the writing is, of course, unfair.

But there is a reason that artists are partaking in this practice, and it has to do with a story about the music industry we know too well. Music streaming brought boom times back to the music business after years of disruption. But that doesn't mean that everybody's getting paid. Artists sometimes make just fractions of a penny per listen. If people stream my music, then I get point.

0.7 cents, right? So if you take a penny and you cut a quarter out of it, what's left of that penny is what I get for every time that you stream. Artists are fighting their own battle to get paid, and there's no shortage of news about this. In the first half of 2021, the New York Times has run multiple stories about streaming's impact on musicians with headlines like streaming saved music, artists hate it, and can streaming pay? Where songwriters are getting pinched by artists, artists say they're getting pinched by labels and streaming services who together decide how much of artist streaming revenue winds up back in their pocket.

Well, it's worth just backing up one second to mention that, like, the root of all this is probably the label. The hierarchy would be label artist songwriter. So the label is being like, you're only getting this much as an artist. You sign this deal. That's your share. The artist is turning around and being like, I only have this much because I'm getting killed by the label over here, I want some publishing and I want to commentate myself.

Instead of dealing with the label, everyone's pre-beating. trading on the person lower than them and the lowest person is the songwriter. I think it can be tough to hear sob stories out of the entertainment industry. These are people who often make news about the most expensive pair of sneakers they own or the palatial homes they build in the hills of Los Angeles. But the music industry, like any other, runs on its own kind of labor hierarchy, with power centralized at the very top. And this hierarchy, it's taken on new significance in the streaming era,

because there's serious money in streaming. And that hierarchy means that money tends to stay at the top with labels and streaming services and distributors. Remember that clip of the musician talking about the 0.7 cents they get per stream of their song? Songwriters have it a lot worse. I'd to look, but it's like 0.0002 cents or something like that. Like, it's nothing.

But the label, meantime, on the same song, is making, like, raking it in. Like, they've killed it this year. Someone told me what labels made this year, and it was like billions of dollars. They're doing well. This disparity has led to a strange phenomenon in the world of popular music. Writers whose songs regularly reach streaming milestones in the millions can't make a living as a songwriter. I know writers who've had millions and millions of streams on Spotify who are driving Uber to pay for their life. Friends that have huge Spotify songs can't pay their rent, like just straight up.

But there is still a special lottery ticket that songwriters have that can change their lives overnight. You might say it's the only thing that makes it possible for them to earn a real living in the music business. Emily would certainly agree. And when we come back from the break, we'll look at why artists are trying to take a cut of songwriters' best hope for making it big and why this dynamic is twisting the sound of music. Maria, you have a podcast now and you need to start acting like it. What's the first step as a podcaster? Well, you have to ask lots of questions. I'm Maria Sharpova, and I'm hosting a new podcast called Pretty Tough.

Every week, I'm sitting down with trailblazing women at the top of their game to discuss ambition, work ethic, and the ups and downs that come on the path to achieving greatness. I have a few pretty tough questions for you. Okay. Ready? Do not sugarcoat something for me. No, no. We'll dive into their stories and get valuable insights from top executives, actors, entrepreneurs,

and other individuals who have inspired me so much in my own journey. Pretty tough is your front row seat to the women who have demonstrated the power in being unapologetic in their pursuits. I hope you'll join us. New episodes drop Wednesdays on YouTube or in your favorite podcast app. One of the weird dynamics in the music business is that even though there's almost no money for songwriters in streaming, there's always money in the music industry's proverbial banana stand, radio.

There's still money in radio. where only 13% of the royalty from streaming goes to songwriters publishing, 100% of the royalties from radio go to publishing in the United States. And while radio is still a much smaller piece of the pie than streaming, it's still a multi-billion dollar business where just a few lucky songwriters whose songs break into the top 40 can earn a windfall. To put that kind of money we're talking about in context, this gorgeous house we recorded outside of...

This is from a song that went to radio. Literally. And had it just been like viral top 50 in a streaming place, but never had gone to radio? I'd make $8 on it. When it comes to a songwriter's livelihood, radio still reigns for the very small number of lucky songwriters who managed to score a radio hit.

And this was something I was not expecting because we've done a number of stories on the show about streaming's dominance and its impact on songwriting. But in all that time, I don't think I realized how much radio still dictates the sound of pop. A true detriment to music in general has been the idea that like nothing but a radio single has value. There's like a common trope where artists come to L.A. to write their album and they hate it. It's terrible because every session they go into, every writer just wants to write a single.

No one's interested in making interesting songs. No one wants to make a slow song. No one wants to make a mid-tempo song. Like people are just chasing radio. And it's like obviously like the only way around. writer can make any money as if they have a radio single. You'd have to be really passionate as a writer to be like, I'm going to write this slow-ass song today that I'll definitely not make more than $8 on and spend my whole day doing that. If songwriters start being compensated, there will

be a musical renaissance. Like, if I know that track eight on someone's album could pay, aren't anyone. Like, if anyone could go in a session being like, I can make something weird today. Like, I don't even have to chase radio because I'll be, I don't have to worry about if I'm going to pay my rent, like it will change music. The thing that I'm taking away from this conversation is that when people complain of the sort of like, say like the corporatization of pop music, like it doesn't actually have to be this way because there's so much money, but the dynamics of who gets paid and how creates structures which reinforce a certain kind of song.

Exactly. Which is like so much. deeper even than like Spotify affecting music in the sense that like a play only counts after so many seconds. So you have to put like cool vocal chops in the beginning. It's like all music is being created with the radio mindset. I was with the chain smokers actually last night listening through the album that's basically done. And we're having a conversation where like there was a moment for almost all the songs where the label was like this is a single. So then they'd go produce it up to be a single. And now when you listen to the album in a row, some things need to be subtracted. brought back down to not singles because it's like we need dynamics on this album and if you listen top to top to bottom it's like but like how much musically changes when you're going for a single when you're tailoring something to work on radio so many things have to be thought about for that it has to have a big chorus it has to have a really short second verse where something changes it has to be for the masses it's not just for your fans it's not just for like what i like

or what you like. And again, the fact of the matter is, the more you ignore these rules, like, probably the better it's going to be. Of course, of course. Which is hard to remember when you're in the session. I remember when our listeners were like, you should talk about new rules.

One, don't pick up the phone. You know, he's only calling because he's drunk and alone. Two, don't let him in you have to kick him out again. And I was like, it's a really cool song. It's not doing that great. And I don't think Duelap is going to be around for a minute. That was like a little. I mean, that was my initial perspective because I was like, I was like, this song is too interesting.

Well, we were, when they were like, this is our single, we were all like, like, okay, that's your funeral. Go for it. I mean, new rules is a funny example because, like, I don't believe if you took one thing out that happened while that song was building, that it would have done what it did. Like, the video was so important. the Me Too movement happening in the same time was so important. There are so many factors that made that song able to work at that time. And almost every big song has a story like that behind it where it's like this had to happen and this had to happen. It had to come out on this day while the sun was out.

And like it's so random, which also is why songwriters are like, I need that. It's never going to happen. And makes us scared that like even people who've had it think it's never going to happen again or how am I ever. going to get that again. It's like such a lightning in a bottle thing that just doesn't happen. Like I think about this all the time. The fact that it's happened to me not just once, but a couple times is like insanity because the business is set up the way it is. Like it's just it's crazy to have an artist cut a song. It's crazier for them to actually put it out. It's insane for them to make it a single. And then it almost never happens that that works on radio.

So if you think about how many people could be getting songs that are, good enough to come out on an artist's album and that means nothing. It's like we've set up a system where like talented people who could be off to have so much to offer are not, they don't have any way to survive in this industry. Even if radio is a kind of lottery ticket for songwriters, it's still the best hope at one day buying a house. And it's no surprise that artists want a slice of that revenue as their deals with labels and streamers so frequently cut them out.

and especially after missing more than a year of touring revenue during the pandemic. But remember, Emily isn't concerned about sharing publishing with an artist who contributes to the song, only when they demand a cut when they're not involved. And the last time this happened to her, it was the straw that broke the Campbell's back. I got in a situation several months ago. It was like the millionth time I'd been asked by an artist manager to give up publishing a song that the artist didn't write.

and it's something that has frustrated me a lot and many times, but it kind of hit a point where I was like, okay, this is a battle that I'm down to fight on my own and have kind of fought on my own, but how do we fix this issue from the inside and larger scale so that every time an artist takes a song, the songwriter's not dealing with this kind of bullying that comes with pressuring songwriters into giving publishing up.

So Emily calls up some of her most successful songwriting peers, many of whom you've heard on the show. Taylor Parks, Ross Golan, Justin Tranter, Savon-Kateka, they've all been asked to give up publishing. Together they decided they wanted to do something about this, so they formed an organization called The Pact, a group of music professionals who want to end this practice and make the overall music business more equitable for the creative laborers. If the hierarchy right now is label to artists to producer to songwriter, we're trying to reverse that waterfall in the sense of like, we're going to turn around and get on the same page as the producers and get on the same page as the artists.

And then all three of us, all three groups can turn around and be like, what's happening here at the label isn't right. We've got to change how this is. So we started drafting a letter that says, this body of songwriters will not give publishing to an artist who didn't write a song without a meaningful exchange. This letter picked up a lot of momentum. Over 1,000 songwriters, producers, and artists signed on,

and over 15,000 have followed them on Instagram. Emily's hope is that with their collective power, the pact can help curb the practice of artist managers, emailing songwriters, demanding a cut of songs they didn't write. I'm in a fortunate position where I feel like they can threaten to take the song away and I'll still be okay, but very few people are in that position. So it's like, how do we all as a community bring awareness to this so that next time someone tries to send an email like that, like, it's going to look

crazy. And, like, people will have spoken about it and voiced it. And so I asked Emily about that email she got from a manager last time around, the one that inspired the pact in the first place. Did you give up the points on that song? I didn't give any publishing up, no. Wow. I've obviously been called difficult so many times for standing up for myself, and that was another one of those situations where, you know, everyone was like, come on, just like, agree.

to this, like, let's just keep this moving. And it's like, how? Like, why, like, perpetuate this thing? And I just, like, as a person, can't agree to that. And I think the fact that we're being told is the people who've made this song, that we just have to give something up or we're losing everything. It's just, like, so crazy. Someone made the comparison that I thought was so good.

It's like an actor in a movie being like, I want a piece of the screenwriter's share. It's like, why? You're the actor. Like, you're being compensated as the actor. Like, it would be so crazy if an actor did that. And it's the same. It's the same.

And we've just, like, it's been going on for so long. And it's just, like, a function of the industry that we've all just, like, accepted it. And I think it was just time to shed a light on it. One of the obvious power dynamics is you don't want to point fingers and name names. Can you break down why? you and other artists don't want to say exactly where this has happened? One of the reasons is, in a lot of cases, this is coming from the artist manager. So to point the finger at the artist who has like some blame just because they're probably like,

I don't even know what's going on and that's like an issue in and of itself, but they're not the ones necessarily like going out and demanding this. So that's one reason. The second reason is we were really excited about this being. an educational moment and positive in the sense that like everyone has done this in some regard. Everyone's asked for publishing. Everyone has given publishing. Every single person that has signed it is a hypocrite in some regard.

And so the idea is kind of like, here's, we're shedding light on this. Here's the situation. We're not going to agree to this anymore. So going forward, if you come back and bully someone into publishing, like we're going to name your names. But you have a chance to make this right. you have a chance to be like, whoa, I didn't even realize it was this bad. When I see it laid out like this, I didn't realize songwriters are being so, like, shafted. And I'm not going to do that again.

Or I'm going to make a trade for publishing. I'm going to compensate writers in another way. And it's been, it's then led to really good, important conversations with artists managers and all these things where they're like, what can we do? How can we help? And not wanting to, like, be thrown under the bus. So I think by staying positive, we've had a lot of power in, just like in what it's been able to the conversations that have started. But again, that being said, like if it continues,

it's going to be a totally different vibe, which I've told everyone. Part of the reason Emily doesn't want to name names is because everyone's doing it and making a headline that says ex-artist took X song, distracts from the larger project. I did independently reach out to songwriters on background and confirm that many of the biggest songs you've heard on, even this show, did not have any artist's involvement, but they demanded credit and a slice of the publishing.

It is way too common. It happened to Dolly. It's happened to Emily. And it's still very much happening today in 2021. So the pack's near-term success seems to hinge on both an artist doing good for the sake of doing good and for the fear of getting called out, all while trying to survive in a music economy designed to keep their cut of the pie to a minimum. It's kind of precarious. But Emily says that artists are starting to come forward.

Have you heard from people saying, I'm going to stop doing this? Yeah. The chain smokers, I don't think, they just basically signed it and were like, this is wrong. Sam Harris from ex-ambassadors had the most amazing. He posted a video on IGTV where he was like fully breaking everything down. And then being like, I've participated in this in the past. Like, I'm learning so much. I'll never do it again.

This is kind of a wake-up call for our industry, for myself too, to say, hey, we need to really set some ground rules here and make things more equitable for everybody involved. I think some of the bigger artists who aren't like huge offenders of this but have done it once or twice are like grappling with, you know, preparing a response. That's something we've spoken to a lot of artists and artist managers about, about them like having a response where they support this that artists can then sign on to because this the letter, the messaging of the packed letter is very specifically from songwriters. and what would obviously tip this over the edge

is if artists come out and say whether or not I've done this in the past like this has been an educational moment I'm not going to do this moving forward. Despite the uphill battle the writers have in front of them, Emily is hopeful because she knows she's done the thing

that you have to do in order to prompt change. And that's getting people talking to each other and taking action on the problem. It was like immediately there was a community. It was like immediately we were talking about this thing and everyone was sharing stories. there was a couple weeks where like literally everyone was hitting me up to like say something that was happening or to tell me about some splits thing they were dealing with and it's been awesome we've been clear in the messaging for songwriters and we'll continue to be so like we want to see those correspondences and not because i'm trying to like come for anyone but like you have we you have us now like if you're a baby songwriter you have all these big songwriters and a thousand something other people who sign the letter and 13000 people on the instagram who have your back so like even if you're a baby songwriter you have all these big songwriters and a thousand something other people who sign the letter and 13,

like even if you never send it to us, go into the conversation knowing that. Go into the conversation knowing that like it's not just your ass on the line. Like all of us agree with you and we're here for you and like we want to see it and support it if things go wrong. So I think that hopefully creates some kind of a shift. And as this group grows, I really hope that above all else, like every songwriter no longer feels like it's just them on an island and they have a community and they have people that they can like voice some of this too and share some of this with that have their back. You can find out more about the pact at the dash pact.org. This episode of Switched on Pop was produced by Megan Lubin and me Charlie Harding.

We're edited by Jolie Myers and engineered by Brandon McFarland who are very excited to welcome back. Congratulations, Brandon, on your new little one. We are illustrated by Iris Gottlieb and social media by Abby Barr. Our executive producers are Nashakurwa and Hana Rosen. We're a member of the Vox Media Podcast Network and a production of Vulture. Some exciting news for the rest of the summer months.

We're going to be featuring summary themed episodes. We're going to be talking to some of the best artists who've made the biggest hits for this summer. We're going to do some mini series. It's going to be a really fun time. So stick around. You can of course catch Switch Dunpop anywhere. You get your podcasts

on social media at Switch. on Pop and on our website switched onpop.com. We'll see you next week and until then. Thanks for listening.