Switched on Pop - Red Hot + Blue with Meshell Ndegeocello

Episode Date: December 1, 2020

In 1990 John Carlin and Leigh Blake pioneered a new kind of charity album. Together they co-founded Red Hot, a non-profit music label that uses music to raise money and awareness to for the fight against AIDS. This year is the 30th anniversary of their record: Red Hot + Blue, a platinum tribute album to Cole Porter, featuring artists like U2, Jody Watley, David Byrne, k.d. lang and Annie Lennox. Having released 20 projects and raised over $15M for AIDS charities, Carlin reflects back on Red Hot's idiosyncratic approach to reaching music audiences with a public health mission. And ten time Grammy nominee Red Hot collaborator Meshell Ndegeocello discusses how her contributions informed her own prolific music activism. More Listen to Red Hot's records at redhot.org Listen to Meshell's Chapter & Verse by calling 1-833-4-BALDWIN or visiting www.meshell.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

If you're tired of endless scrolling to figure out where to eat, same. I'm Stephanie Wu, editor-in-chief of Eater. We've just launched the new-ish and way better Eater app. It has all the restaurants we love, gives you personalized picks wherever you are, and serves up smarter search results just for you. You can find my list of the best places for martinis and fries in New York City. And save your favorite spots, share lists, follow editors, and book right in the app. Download the Eater app at Eaterapp.com.

It's free for iOS users. Welcome to Switched on Pop. I'm songwriter Charlie Harding. Nate is on paternity leave. Today, December 1st is World AIDS Day. So I'm bringing you a story about a nonprofit record company that has helped to fight the pandemic. The power of music in an activist context

is that it preaches to the unconverted. My name is John Carlin. I co-founded the Red Hot organization. in the late 1980s. Music is one of the few things that crosses boundaries and is a way to bring people into the tent. And in the early days of the AIDS pandemic, that was crucial because AIDS is a preventable disease like COVID.

And we had to get people to start using condoms the way they have to wear masks today. John was a member of the New York City East Village art scene in the 1980s. He's friends with visual artists, Keith Herring and David Voinovich, artists who blurred the lines between art and activism to combat AIDS. John was inspired by these artists, and he wanted to extend their form of arts activism into music. So he comes up with this really wild idea that he pitches to his friend Lee Blake, who was in the film and music world. So here's my pitch to Lee.

I had this idea. It's a Cole Porter tribute album. She's like, who the fuck cares about Cole Porter? Oh, he's that old, horrible-fashioned Broadway composer, those songs that bored me when my grandmother sang them. That's the worst idea I've ever heard. Don't ever tell that to any other person. And I'm like, no, no, he was a great American artist. You know, he's the greatest songwriter of the 1930s. He wrote Night and Day.

Don't fence me in. Don't fence me in. And he was gay. And she's like, of course, everybody knows that. And I'm like, no, he was closeted his entire career. But the lyrics of his songs are very coated. You know, there's all these winks. In all the days, a glimpse of stocking was a little sort of something shocking,

but now God knows anything goes. They really fit what's going on in terms of, The AIDS crisis, you know, affecting gay communities, it created this extra stigma. It's hard to remember 30 years ago that this is true. In 1989, the AIDS epidemic is a deeply partisan issue and culturally taboo in many places. And John wanted to find a way to break through those political narratives using old songs, which spoke to the moment that everyone was familiar with. The life in these lyrics, the nuance, The melody could be brought out for a new generation.

If you were sophisticated, you knew that this was talking about gender fluidity, sexual orientation. But if you were just some grandma from Illinois, you just love the, oh, you're the top. I've got you under my skin. I've got you under my skin. You know, it was just like these were like sing-alongs. They're great songs. You know, it's like finding something of incredible value that had sort of been left on the shelf.

It's kind of far-fetched to think that these winky Broadway songs could have another life as an AIDS benefit album. But John is totally set on the idea, and he keeps pitching it to Lee. A couple of days later, she called back and she said, you know, maybe that wasn't the worst idea. What if we did it not just with musicians? but also filmmakers. And I'm like, that's a great idea.

So you'll do it? And she said, yeah, well, if I can, and you give me some money to start. So I did. So the idea of this visual, musical, Cole Porter tribute album is born, but the challenge is, of course, that John and Lee have to dig up artists to participate. So the most important artist to me, to us on Red Hot and Blue,

was David Byrne. Because he was the first artist to say yes, which is the crucial thing when you're doing a project like this. And I think the song he did, Don't Fence Me In, was just brilliant, and it took kind of a hokey,

Cole Porter song and just made it feel fresh. With David Byrne, of Talking Heads fame signed up, more musicians start getting on board. Chenate O'Connor, fine young cannibals, Debbie Harry, Iggy Pop, Jody Watley, and even you too.

People really wanted something to do to stand up to fight the AIDS pandemic and to fight for LGBTQ rights. So Red Hot and Blue was a landmark both because there were a lot of LGBTQ artists on it, Katie Lang and Jimmy Somerville, notably. And you have to remember how heroic it was for someone like Katie Lang, whose audience was country music to come out. And I talked to her about it recently, and she said, you know, I said, Katie, that was really heroic.

And she said, you know, I just had to do it. You know, the stigma against gay people, lesbians during the AIDS pandemic was so fierce that I felt like I just had to come out. But the other important thing about red, hot and blue, was so many people involved were not gay. It took AIDS and the popular perception away from being a gay disease to just a viral pandemic like the one we're living through right now. Because we wanted to do something that really said people with AIDS, you know,

that the virus does not know who you are. It doesn't target drug users or LGBTQ people. Just like COVID today, It's just a virus. So the project comes together. It becomes the album, Red Hot and Blue, which goes on to sell over a million copies, and Lee develops a music video TV special that airs on ABC.

So it really sort of broke through the barrier into the mainstream. And I think proudly it was one of those things where pop culture really forced the culture as a whole to change the attitude towards LGBTQ people. John and Lee were stunned by the success of Red Hot and Blue, but they always saw it as a one-off charity record, and yet its success led to many more opportunities to unite music and activism to combat AIDS.

But then the miracle was, I guess, about a year later, we got a call from George Michael's manager who said, George loves Red Hot and Blue. He wants to donate a song to your next album. So we were like, I guess there's a next album. because who's going to turn down, you know, George Michael at the height of his career. And he basically gave us a hit song, Too Funky, and two other brilliant tracks. And just like David Byrne sort of put us into space by being the first artist to say, yes, George Michael put us into orbit.

Once Red Hot and Dance, you know, started to become successful, a bunch of other records happened. So their next album is born, Red Hot and Dance, and there are many others after that. Next, there's no alternative made by producer Paul Heck that had artists like Smashing Pumpkins, Patty Smith and Nirvana. There's a country album afterwards, a jazz and hip-hop record. Red Hot becomes a real cultural force demonstrating a unique way of connecting AIDS activism with music. I think there's a number of things that makes Red Hot different than a typical charity benefit. The core of it is we really love to make art, and we really believe that art and music are a way of communicating messages,

but that it has to be done with authenticity and originality. So one thing that's distinguished all the Red Hot Records is they're not B-sides, they're not typically live cuts, they're not sort of throwaways. They're original concepts that we then put together. like curators and go out and ask who we think are the most important artists at a moment rather than who are the most popular. Fortunately, we've worked with a lot of popular artists, but the goal is really actually a little more niche,

is to find people whose audiences really believe what they have to say, which is often eviscerated through pop celebrity. But Redhot's approach has been really different, as we often will do projects that are not obvious. Rather than work with only top 40 artists whose brands are already ubiquitous and whose charity efforts are so often unfortunately forgotten the next day when their apparel ad campaign launches, Red Hot sought out artists with regional relationships with their fans so that they could target each record specifically to different communities. affected by AIDS. Red Hot and Blue was, you know, a sophisticated international urban record. Red Hot and Dance was like, hey, we have to get the club kids. They're at risk.

No alternative was injecting drug use and the rock culture is where things are exploding. And then we were like, okay, it is really communities of color now by the mid-1990s. where not only AIDS was spiking, but there was a lot of disinformation. So in 1994, Red Hot releases their fifth album, Stolen Moments, Red Hot and Cool, a mashup of contemporary hip-hop and R&B artists like The Far Side, the Roots, and Michelle and Deggio cello, with jazz legends like Herbie Hancock and Ron Carter.

And from the start, there's now been over 20 projects, each with their own intended audience, with music, from Rio, Felicuti, Brooklyn, and even Bach. Over 30 years, Red Hat has produced over 500 tracks, given away over $15 million. But the nice thing is we've given away that money in a really important way to things like Actup and Needle Exchange. And I feel like I personally,

I couldn't have had a more fortunate professional life than being able to do these two things at once, activism and art. The Red Hot method of connecting music and activism means that you might not have heard of every one of the records. And that's the point. Each one was meant to reach different listeners with various messages about romance,

safe sex, the AIDS pandemic, and messages of hope. They're celebrating the 30th anniversary of Red Hot and Blue as well as the founding of the Red Hot organization. If you want to check out more of the records, you can go to redhot.org to hear them there. Or you can stick around after the break where I talk to a two-time Red Hot collaborator, the amazing musician, Michelle and Deggio Cello. We talk about how collaborating with Red Hot changed the way that she made music and informed how she merges her art with activism. Maria, you have a podcast now and you need to start acting like it.

What's the first step as a podcaster? Well, you have to ask lots of questions. I'm Maria Sharpova, and I'm hosting a new podcast called. called Pretty Tough. Every week, I'm sitting down with trailblazing women at the top of their game to discuss ambition, work ethic, and the ups and downs that come on the path to achieving greatness. I have a few pretty tough questions for you. Okay. Ready? Ready. Do not sugarcoat something for me. No, no, no. We'll dive into their stories and get valuable insights from top executives, actors, entrepreneurs, and other individuals

who have inspired me so much in my own journey. Pretty Tough is your front row seat, the women who have demonstrated the power in being unapologetic in their pursuits. I hope you'll join us. New episodes drop Wednesdays on YouTube or in your favorite podcast app. Immigration may be Donald Trump's signature issue. President Trump is now targeting predominantly democratic cities for ice raids and deportations. Dozens of protesters clashing with immigration and customs enforcement agents in Minneapolis Tuesday. We will begin the process of returning millions and millions of criminal aliens back to the places from which they came. But what we want to do in this space

is talk about America and politics beyond the current president. So what do most Americans think about deportation and border security, period? I think that Americans are definitely against the kind of violent displays that we've seen in the street from ICE. When it comes to the question of deportation, the answer is more complicated. My sense is that people want border at the border.

They don't like the idea of having no idea who's coming into the United States at any given time. The view on immigration from the bottom up instead of the top down. That's this week on America Actually. Every Saturday in your audio and video feeds. My next guest is a 10-time Grammy nominee known for pioneering Neo-Soul. She's a singer, bass player, songwriter. She's performed alongside Prince, Missy Elliott, the Rolling Stones, Madonna,

and, of course, she's a red-hot alum who fuses her art with her activism. My name is Michelle and Dake Aicello. Yeah, just a water, carbon-based life form trying to make sense of this experience. You've been a multi-time collaborator with Red Hot. You've contributed to Red Hot and Cool with your track Nocturnal Sunshine, featuring Herbie Hancock. You contributed to Red Hot and Riot covering Falakutti's gentlemen. And I just want to dive right in and talk about those pieces. Could you take me back to 1994?

What was red hot and cool about? What made you want to contribute to this project? In 94, things were, I was just in the beginning of realizing that I really loved recording. So I was just excited that there was another project that was going to allow me a time in the studio to make music. And then as I entered into the experience, because it becomes this experience, where if you did do something well and you gain some notoriety, you would be able to perhaps influence people to be more considerate about things. You make a song called Nocturnal Sunshine, it's featuring Herbie Hancock, and the sort of main hook of that track is. Let me bathe your mind in a nocturnal sunshine. How was nocturnal sunshine conceived,

and what are you trying to communicate with this piece? Oh, in my youth, and if I remember correctly, I didn't go get that detail. I think I misspell a word in the lyrics. I don't know. I think it was more tone poetry, sort of just along the line of William S. Burroughs. I think I just liked how the words felt together,

or if it seems pretty a contradiction, trying to find poetry in its contradiction. I feel like... Orange is bad. You know, I feel like I experience that tone poetry, this inherent contradiction. Right from the beginning of the music, there are just so many layers.

I feel like there are multiple bass parts. Oh, yeah. There are layers of Michelle. You have such a, I feel like your voice has many characters, and we get all of the different qualities that you bring out very early in this track. And so it feels like we're being surrounded, we're being bathed in sound, and it is both dark and bright at the same time. I appreciate that.

I mean, isn't that the beauty of music, or it's definitely why I wanted to play? I remember listening to Stevie Wonder's Inovisions. I felt transport. I felt something. Not only did my ears interact with the music, it definitely made my mind generate physical sensations. And so I'm basically trying to recreate that with the things I make. You may not like the song, but I hope you feel something from it. So the sound has an inherent quality in it itself.

But I think we also capture this lyrically because what I connected with in this track is the way in which you have both the profound and the profane and the merging of the two. in the opening verse you speak about a yearn for one emotionally satisfying kiss The Garden of Eden's spiritual bliss Forgiveness Offerings of sunflowers

Bobbing gay Black butterflies With death through a lies Nature disputes out Sin a figment of our imagination And compassion is often greater than God Oof profound What an asshole, huh?

Oh, God, I just sound like I'm searching. I'm so lost. Yes, I think, especially at that time. I, you know, the disconnecting from my parents or, you know, going through it. Baldwin goes through in the fire next time where you set aside the dogma you've been born into and you start to try to figure out this conundrum

of life on your own. Yeah, oh, God, I missed that time because I was so filled with gumption and arrogance and, you know, I just had so much more like feminine testosterone running through my body. It's like I'm hearing like you felt in your bones more right then, but you know that you're more right now in your, the wisdom of your unknowing that only comes with time. yeah or the extreme just humbling that that time does to you to your your preconceived notions ideas i mean i think i think america is experiencing that now you know but as an individual i think that is the you you cannot fully live until you reckon with like i said you're the dogma and the fear and the um I would say now, just reason is far greater than God, empathy and compassion. The other sort of side of this song is the profane, because when we go into your second verse,

we go into lovemaking. Some making love only pacifies the urge to die, submerge between warm thighs, For some, making love only pacifies the urge to die, submerge between warm thighs. And we are now in a totally different universe. And yet, in the next line, you kind of merge the two. And speak that love is far beyond these earthly means. Yeah, because even eventually that will come to not soothe your existential crisis. Even that is wrought with dogma.

And also, especially, oh, I'm so glad I got to live during this time to experience that even genders, this subjective construct that we're all starting to have to rethink or some don't feel comfortable in it. It's just such an interesting conversation. Because, yeah, I mean, as you go through the, your mind will falter, your body will falter. The thing I enjoy most now is to listen to music. action that is I can sort of feel as if I'm in a type of meditation where I don't necessarily have to have any action towards it. Well, it feels appropriate then because in the rest of the song, you sort of fade into the background repeating almost a mantra of let me bathe your mind in a nocturnal sunshine. And it's just a, it's a groove throughout the rest of the song.

Herbie's improvising, you're holding down rhythms that I don't even understand on the bass. They are just washing over us. They are more than the profound, youthful, arrogant, profound statement. They are more than the profane that you speak who in the second verse. And we just kind of go along for that ride. I play. black American music and the improvisational aspect of it I have many thoughts on but the disposition that I have I feel very confident in the position of playing the person that locks down the groove

and tries to create a canvas that someone who does like to improvise can can feel good on I just, but I really love listening to Herbie Hancock. He is the grand improviser. It's just always so it's like a journey. And you're just sad when it ends, you know? You just wonder, what do you have thought after that? And that's such an amazing gift to have. It's beautiful.

You speak about your love of getting to create that canvas for improvisation. And I think that's an appropriate segue to talk about your other contribution to Red Hot. You participated in the record Red Hot and Riot, a celebration of Falakuti's music, and you reinterpret his work, Gentleman, along with the Airbra Buena and Ron Blake. And this could not be more of a groove-based track. Why gentlemen? Oh, man. Africa Hot. You rolling up in ties, coats, and socks.

I just think that is the best line ever. Also town poetry, but both political, material, and poetic. I know, and that's Fela. That's not me. That person I envy, I do. I'm like, his wherewithal and sense of self is just amazing. It just fees in a suit and tie. What is gentlemen about?

Just about colonialism. The idea that you are the civilized and you bring your culture, the slogan that the sun never sets on the British Empire is just amazes me because talk about arrogance. You said the sun will never set. Check it's over. You said the sun would never set.

In the position of greater than less than, which I'm also learning to not participate in, which is a fascinating exercise. The tool of repetition is so important. And lines, which could be a single lyric and then thrown away, are repeated not just to hammer in that idea, but to develop new meaning. And there's quite a few lines here, three in particular, that I find the more I hear them, the more powerful they become. You have this line that it comes from the original gentleman. You just thieves in a suit and tie. You murder. What is this line saying? What is... Oh, it's very clear. It's, if I have to answer that, that one, yeah, come on. Legislation

and police, come on, that one speaks for itself. I feel like when I hear it, I can hear it through a very contemporary American perspective. But also, I think what I'm getting from thinking about the context of the song in the 70s and Felucuti is like the suit and tie is also a symbol of colonialism. It's not, like, it's just not a default suit of armor. It's a choice. Yes, I love that he played in his natural self. And it's also like, I mean, we could. go on. That's just, that's why he's such a great writer. That's why he's such a great ancestor. That's

why he's such a great prophet. I mean, it's, it's just, they're just all costumes. We're all wearing a costume. Yeah, the other line is, did your mind write a check that your soul can't cash? I mean, it's, it's one both to laugh at, but also to like think very deeply that. Yeah, yeah, It's hilarious. But I think actually, yeah, nobody wins. When I work on the Baldwin thing, there are moments I have to catch myself because I'm angry.

I'm a kidnapped pagan. I'm constantly clear and I understand about the circumstances and reasons why I'm here in this country. And I can keep going on through all my psychology and what I experience to my parents, which I write about in my own music, just the experience of being a person of color and female in this country.

And then I listen to what other marginalized, so-called marginalized people of color have gone through, like through Falau's music. And there's just a moment you have to stop and you have to catch yourself and you have to not be angry. That you have to really be like, wow, I come from a mighty people.

There was a period of time when a certain culture felt it was okay to buy and sell people, you know? That's hard. It speaks to the other two lines that I think really sort of command this piece for me. It's one thing for Thela to sing original I be African. And it's another thing for you to sing that. Yeah. because I also I have great clarity if I had been you know born in Africa at a certain time I'd probably experience genital mutilation or some oppressive you know religious

or cultural experience that I would struggle with as well who knows but you know I don't have that like looking back thing you know like it would have been better it's just hard sometimes to sit with and to understand what my parents went through who were born before there was civil rights. And I am an extension of that due to how they raised me and other things. It's just hard. And I guess that's what takes me into the Baldwin work. It's just like any individual who is in therapy or learning to be a physician or even

to be a musician. Once you learn, you can only deal with your limitations and accepting truth, painful truths about yourself in order to function in society and try to do less harm. Even that sounds dogmatic, but I just struggle that I live in a country sometimes that just wants to sort of neatly wrap up and to have false truths. I have to step back sometimes

and remember that I have my own children and the best I can do is try to break the cycle of certain behaviors and to sort of help usher them into a non-delusional existence with the reality being this all comes and goes very quickly. Preparing for our conversation, I went and watched this interview

due to the New York Times this summer, and you spoke about, and I actually think this points back to your sort of original motivation with nocturnal sunshine. You said that when you were young, you were singularly focused on music and that activism and the sort of larger awareness of the world didn't come until later. Do you know when that changed for you? Oh, every time I, every time I lied, cheated, read the newspaper, laughed, cried, bought some meaningless object.

I mean, who knows? You're telling me there wasn't one singular moment where there was a sudden aha that is a perfectly encapsulated story that you can tell right now. That makes sense. Oh, thank you. Oh, my God. I mean, so many. Well, here's the thing. It's like, I was surprised to hear you say that you were singularly focused on music because I just feel like on every record of yours, going back to the very beginning, it's not just about music.

I mean, your first record is just you've had 10 or so years to be self-absorbed and make beats and tell your personal story that it sounds like you know you're super thoughtful. But I think I'm just, I was just like any other person who wanted to have self-expression. You know, I mean, Prince is my favorite person and really inspired me to be a musician. So I think I just was using the father I had, which was, you know, personal stories. I mean, that's an interesting pivot is when you stop, when you try to stop writing about yourself and be an observer. When and why did that happen for you? Oh, I think after Bitter. The recording Bitter, I was just like, okay, like, yes, I just.

I think bitter, also reading Chronicles of the Bob Dylan book. What did Bob Dylan teach you? Not to tell you what he taught me. Maybe to show me? Yeah. Speaking of moving from self-expression and personal stories, your latest work, which we've alluded to a bit, is inspired by the work of James Baldwin.

Dear James, I have begun this level five times and torn it up five times. I have begun to see me your face. It's taken on many forms, and its current form, it's called Chapter and Verse. And you say the Gospel of James Baldwin is a 21st century ritual toolkit for justice, a call for revolution, a gift during turbulent times. And it's this audio, video, and graphic project. How did this come about? What's the story of Chapter and Verse?

The project first would experience right after the 2016 election. And so it sort of worked as a church. service slash town hall. It was very kinetic, alive, and of the time. And then we started performing it, and it sort of

took on this life as a project that people wanted to recreate that experience, which is impossible. Because I just see it as this ever morphing in provenizational

trope. The trope. The trope is it's based on the church service, which is where James Baldwin comes from. And if you read the fire next time, he would talk about the only time he got to be alone as a teenager was to work on his sermons. And he knew they had to be like, you know, captivating. You know, that's the best scam ever is Sunday morning church service. And I don't mean to insult anyone, but we all love good oratory.

And that is just true. And so the virus hit. Everything is shut down. Everything has changed. We can't work in that way anymore. And I work with two of the most talented theater people. I just feel truly blessed. The director Charlotte Braithwaite and the sound designer and composer Justin Hicks.

They suggested a hotline. The reason that really spoke to me, believe it or not, is I had just finished the Matt Tayabi book. I can't breathe about Eric Garner. And how he met his wife was on, you know, like through the hotline. I felt it was just weird that, you know, it just was in the air. And I was like, great idea. And, you know, the hotline is how you get services.

It used to be how you met people. I mean, it just was like the phone used to have this other feeling towards, you know. I used to set up for hours. and talk to people on the phone. And it was just a different thing than it is the experience with a smartphone. So I think in a way, for me, because I'm just the sonic aspect of it, I wanted to create something that you could just call and that action of dialing a number and having this feeling that someone was going to give you information

or enchant you to send you to a different feeling. Yeah, the hotline just allows you to have that. I can say that calling 18334 Baldwin was a totally original way for me to experience music. I was greeted with reverse audio of someone saying something, there's like a sermony kind of quality that then sort of turns around and re-reverses,

and I heard pianos and choirs. There's something wonderful about the capacity to be surprised and have to forfeit to whatever the line has to offer me. Like, I can't hit skip. I can't find the next best playlist. I just have to let the inspiration of James Baldwin and your work and all your collaborators wash over me. Yes. Yes, you're in person. Yes, exactly. That for me makes it creatively a slight specific piece in the sense of it occurred over months,

you know, October, November, and December. For me, each month is a different feeling. And to me, I must admit, there's this feeling of where were the words leading us in November. And so I think that that sound collage really is the feeling I had just in early November, that sense of, I wasn't sure our limited ability with language was truly working for us as a species. And I think that's why I think November feels that way, sounds that way. I feel like what I'm really capturing from this conversation is that when you went into working with Red Hot, you were in it for the music excited to make a track. And then the exposure of being able to make a piece that had much greater depth and purpose has just been effusive throughout the rest of your career.

And that this James Baldwin project is in many ways a great sort of apotheosis of that, that sort of that awakening that happened so many decades ago. Oh, yes. I mean, the first person I called after making the Baldwin recording was John Carlin. Sure, there are records I want to make and I want to go through the publicity junket and I want a label to do this, you know, and you hope people, you know, respond to it a certain way. This is very different for me and it's very hard. It's very hard experience because I'm just looking for the right way to expose the music. Because it's collectively, I mean, I made this with other people.

Nicholas Galampton, I don't know if you're familiar with him. His art really speaks to my heart and to where America is right now. Sunay Woods, I just think, is going to be a filmmaker. We're going to really come to cherish. I'm very clear about my job in the tribe. You know, I employ people. The little notoriety I have allows me to create experiences where we can all make, inshallah, a fair wage. and continue to thrive and to make things because that is our livelihood.

I do not fool myself about that. But eventually you do hit a wall where it's like there's only so much shucking and jive and singing and dancing and I can do. And so there's just this, you're just constantly balancing between hope and fear, just that you can find projects that are, even if they're just, you're just constantly balancing, you're just that, suck. You feel okay. You know? I appreciate you, young man. Thank you so much for your time, your wisdom,

your laughter, all of it. Appreciate it. Be well. This episode of Switched on Pop was produced by Bridget Armstrong and me, Charlie Harding, Brandman Farland, edits and mixes, Abby bars on social media, and Iowa Scott Lee makes wonderful illustrations. We're executive produced by Nashok Kerwa and Liz Kelly Nelson and a member of the Vox Media Podcast Network.

I want to say a special thanks to Paul Heck for his support and help on this episode. And if you enjoyed this one, you can obviously find many more at switchdownpop.com, anywhere you got podcasts, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, you know the drill. And you can talk to us on social media at Switched on Pop. We back next week. Bridget is going to be joining me as a guest host, and we're going to be having a really fabulous conversation about the women who are running hip-pop. We'll see you next week. Thanks for listening.

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