Switched on Pop - Return of the Funk Guitar: Cory Wong Breaks Down Dua Lipa, Jessie Ware and Nile Rodgers

Episode Date: March 23, 2021

Cory Wong is a Minneapolis native and Vulfpeck collaborator known for pushing rhythm guitar from a background instrument to the star of the show. Wong’s a walking encyclopedia of funk guitar, and he takes us through the riffs and styles—from Nile Rodgers to Quincy Jones—that power modern bops such as Dua Lipa’s “Levitating” and Jessie Ware’s “Step Into My Life.”  For Cory, rhythm guitar isn’t just a source of propulsive joy, but a sound that’s intimately connected to different regional scenes: change one note in a riff and you’ve moved from Philadelphia to Cincinatti. Every bubble and chuck speaks to a history of musical innovation - a history Cory mines on his new album-slash-variety show, Cory and the Wongnotes. Mixing comedy sketches, massively funky performances, and interviews, Cory’s project imagines what happens when the bandleader takes over as late night host. Songs Discussed (it’s a long one) VULFPECK - Cory Wong Doja Cat - Say So Mark Ronson - Uptown Funk (Audio) ft. Bruno Mars Dua Lipa - Levitating Chic - Good Times Earth, Wind & Fire - Shining Star Ohio Players - Love Rollercoaster Prince - I Wanna Be Your Lover Maroon 5 - Moves Like Jagger feat. Christina Aguilera Morris Day & The Time - The Bird Bootsy Collins - Stretchin' Out (In a Rubber Band) Gap Band - I Don't Believe You Want To Get Up And Dance (Oops Up Side Your Head) James Payback - The Payback Sly & The Family Stone - Thank You (Falettinme Be Mice Elf Agin) Jessie Ware - Step Into My Life Chic - Le Freak David Bowie “Modern Love”  Duran Duran “Notorious”  Diana Ross - I’m Coming Out The B52’s “Love Shack”  Avicii “Lay Me Down”  Diana Ross - Upside Down Sister Sledge - We Are Family Sister Sledge - Thinking Of You  Sister Sledge - He’s The Greatest Dancer  Steve Winwood “Higher Love” chorus Stevie wonder - Higher Ground Michael Jackson - Billie Jean Michael Jackson - Thriller Daft Punk - Get Lucky (Feat. Pharrell Williams) David Bowie - Let's Dance Madonna - Like a Virgin Eminem - Lose Yourself Miley Cyrus - Party In The U.S.A Stevie wonder - Higher Ground Michael Jackson - Billie Jean Michael Jackson - Thriller Daft Punk - Get Lucky (Feat. Pharrell Williams) David Bowie - Let's Dance Madonna - Like a Virgin Eminem - Lose Yourself Miley Cyrus - Party In The U.S.A Cory Wong - Tiki Hut Strut Cory and The Wongnotes - Episode 4, “Genre (ft Grace Kelly)” Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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I'm musicologist Nate Sloan, and I'm very excited today to welcome into our virtual studio, a guitarist you may know from Volfeck or as the host of the new variety show, Corey and the Wong Notes. It's Corey Wong. What's up, everybody? Corey, we're excited to have you here because we're fans. We're also hoping you can give us some insight into a subtle musical phenomena that is permeating the top 40. But with that cliffhanger, before we get there, let's get to know.

you a little better. You're known as a rhythm guitarist with the floppiest right hand in the game. And I think you can hear this inimital technique on a track like The Aponymous, Corey Wong, by Wolfpack. So we have a guest here who is uniquely positioned to enlighten one of the subtler phenomena of modern pop that undergird songs from Doja Cats Say So. to Bruno Mars world beating Uptown Funk, the driving secret ingredient that propels a track forward and into your brain forever, it's rhythm guitar. That's my game, dude. That's where I live. Corey, let's take it from the top. What is rhythm guitar?

Rhythm guitar to me is the majority of the job of a guitar player, often neglected. Now, to me, like you said, rhythm guitar is something that propels a song forward when that's called for. Now, of course, the main ingredient for that is the drums and bass and percussion elements, but I think the role of the guitar can be wrapped into that role and can fill the role of, like, a musical bongo. Not that bongos aren't musical on their own, but pitched bongos, pitched tambourine. I think it can kind of float in its role because the attack on the instrument can be so strong,

but it can also layer in pad things or sustaining elements. So for me, rhythm guitar is a driving rhythmic momentum that loosely outlines the harmony and occasionally the melody of a song. In different styles of music, you'll have different things. There's different types of rhythm guitar, and they sometimes have names, associate with them or like, hey, give me that bubble thing. Give me the bubble. That's kind of a bubble. That's kind of a bubble. And then you've got something that's more like the Nile Rogers thing, which is outlining chord changes with rhythm and the chucks in there. The

chuck is kind of this thing, where you're strumming the chuck, you're hitting, but it's not actually any notes. It's kind of more like a shaker than a hi-hat, but it has a similar sort of thing. So if you have so it's got it's a mix of chucks and actual chords but for me a lot of what I do is I keep the motor moving

in my right hand. This sort of it doesn't mean that I'm always going to hit every time but that motor is always moving and whenever I decide to hit the strings and wherever I decide to accent wherever I decide to place notes instead of chucks really kind of helps

define the groove. And that's different than the time. You know, so the groove is how something feels. The time is just the pulse of it. This is already fascinating because I imagine for me is for many listeners. Like, this is maybe something you kind of take for granted in a track. This element that often recedes into the background is maybe more felt than heard. And now we're kind of like, you're bringing it out into the light and we're like hearing all the nuances of it and all the thought that goes into it.

Yeah. And I also already am visualizing a title for this episode that's something like bubble chuck and motor, the intricacies of rhythm guitar with Corey Wong. I feel like if I was a kid growing up right now, I would be, like, thrilled by the amount of funky guitar parts that you are encountering all over top 40 music. It's like perhaps the return of a golden age of like a rhythm guitar on the radio. And I was hoping with you here we could listen to a couple of the big smash hits of recent. Yeah. And think about what role rhythm guitar is playing. Yeah.

And the first song I'd like to put under your microscope is a big hit that we've yet to discuss on the show. It's from Duolipa, and it's called Levitating. You want me, I want you, baby. My sugar boo. Yeah, that track is amazing. Dual Lipa is incredible. I would like to play for her someday. That would be fun.

She's just got a fun book, as they called in the jazz world, you know. It'd be a fun book to play. But, I mean, for that song, so rhythm guitar-wise, it stands out because it's a certain texture and it adds a certain thing. Now, there's a lot of ways you could have approached it. It's cool to hear it in the track. So it's basically, if I'm hearing right, right now there's enough other rhythmic momentum happening. But, you know, another approach, if, you know, the guitar part could have been.

And the other thing that she did is she kind of, what they did is they kind of took the Nile Rogers chord comping thing and they just took out the chucks. You know, so they could have gone, you know, they could have added that. And the guitar then would have just taken up more rhythmic density. and rhythmic momentum in the song, but it functions fine how it is. You know, and I think there's been a journey to pave the way for where this sort of role in pop music is. I'll just start with kind of disco, Nile Rogers, Sheik, going into Earth, Win and Fire.

Ohio players, obviously Prince, but his thing is way different. And then you have something like moves like Jagger or a lot of Maroon 5 stuff like James Valentine, his playing, like that sort of thing. You know. Right, right. That's kind of playing the Nile Chuck thing up high. Now, if you took that exact part out,

like that part, if you moved it down an octave and took out the chucks, you'd basically be almost at exactly what Dula Lepa's guitar player is playing there. So to me, It's all kind of part of the same lineage. That sort of guitar playing. That's very illuminating.

I'm geeking out really hard right now. I like thinking about how all these choices are not made in a vacuum, but are based on all the other musical elements that are present in the track and what is like the perfect ingredient that will complement all those other ingredients and bring out their flavor. And every artist, every producer's interpretation of those things is very different. You know, like, I've played for some artists and they've said, hey, give me the Nile thing. And I'll play the Nile thing. Exactly. And they're like, no, no, no, no. That's not the Nile thing. The Nile thing is this. I'm like, oh, really? Is it that? Are you the one that studied rhythm guitar your whole life?

Like, inside my mind, that's what I'm thinking. But I'm not actually saying that out loud. I'm saying, oh, okay, what is it about the Nile Rogers thing that you're looking for? I think for any guitar player, any musician in general, when you're communicating with other people, if you are an expert in something, you have to understand that not everybody else is an expert in that, and you have to interpret how much they know about something and what it is that they're actually going for. So when I might think they're going for, they might actually want this.

I'm just like, okay, that's kind of it. You know. The first being the Nile thing. Yeah. And the second being the prince thing. Kind of, but the prince thing actually, it's more about the voicing, though. So the Prince thing would actually be more.

Whoa, that is the Prince thing, yeah. Holy cow. So it goes beyond just what the rhythm is and how much subdivision it is. It's also in the voicing. It's like what's going to give you that? And if we take a look at the Prince thing, you mentioned Uptown Funk.

That is part of the Prince lineage. When I hear Uptown Funk, to me, that is Morris Day in the time. Well, and then it comes from some of the step out of Ohio, you know. Sincy and there's a whole scene there, but I hear a lot of, and Gatla Gat band. Ohio scene and Minneapolis scene kind of blended together, and that's what I hear in Uptown Funk. But the guitar playing to me is much more of the Prince lineage.

And the Prince lineage, I guess I would start farther back, James Brown, and Sly and the Family Stone thing. That kind of goes into the prince realm and then kind of takes off in a bunch of other different realms. But that's kind of, to me, uptown, like a lot of people would lump the type of playing in Uptown funk and levitating together. But to me, they come from different lineages of rhythm guitar. So Uptown Funk is much more of the Minneapolis Prince, Morris Day in the time. For me, I grew up in Minneapolis. it's just in my blood. You know, the Minneapolis thing is in my blood.

I recognize it when I hear it, and I recognize that somebody's kind of doing the Minneapolis thing. And sometimes intentionally, like, oh, I'm kind of going for the Minneapolis thing. Everything's right. The voicing's right. The subdivision's right,

but the time feel is too laid back. Now, again, what's right or wrong is not necessarily objective. But if you're saying, this is the exact Minneapolis thing, there's more consider than voicings and subdivision. And to get the Philly thing, somebody from Minneapolis is going to have to lean farther back. Hearing this is a reminder of how closely different musical

techniques are associated with geographical areas and musical scenes. And it's really fascinating to hear that kind of in real time. You change a soul shifted rhythm, a cell shift in voicing, and all of a sudden you've moved, you know, a thousand miles west to another, to a new to a new place. Let's travel now to somewhere far afield to an artist that kind of escaped our radar this year, which is a shame because she put out a really wonderful album. It's Jesse Ware, and I thought we could listen to this track, Step Into My Life, which also features guitar, but in a used in a very different role. So here's the chorus of Step Into My Life. Cool track.

So to me, that actually follows... That's a different lineage altogether. That's more like the Quincy Jones use of rhythm guitar. Cool. Where the rhythm guitar intertwines... Well, actually, I would interject Nile into that because Nile did a lot, like, you know, freak out.

But you know that guitar part in that of that. Or whatever. that is. And then they go to... Yeah, right, right. See, I'm even adding a little extra to it. A little sauce, yeah. If theirs is just doubling, so they're making a musical hook. You know, like, you listen to Stevie Wonder Tunes,

and there's the vocal hook, and then there's musical hooks, very potently. You know, now you could take that and go more thriller on it. And, like, Dave Williams' rhythm guitar, B, which to me, it comes from the, you know, lineage of like apart from Billy Jean, apart from Thriller. You know, there's all these different, it's kind of a bubble part, but the bubble functions as a musical hook. You know, so that track to me is great use of rhythm guitar as a melodic hook. Hmm. You know, so there's obviously vocal on there, but the rhythm is kind of taking a lead role because it's doubling that part as a

hook. Right. I see that. You hear that on a lot of Quincy tracks that he produced for Michael Jackson. And now I think we need to address head-on a name that has already been thrown out a number of times, Nile Rogers, who perhaps was the person who reinvigorated an interest in this sound on the top 40 with daft punk and Pharrell Williams in 2013 with a track like Get Lucky. And I wonder if you could speak to what makes Nile Rogers sound so iconic and still so relevant today, you know, now like, I don't know, almost 50 years since he first burst onto the scene with Sheik in the early 70s. Like, what is it about this player that we keep coming back to? It stretches beyond just him as a guitar player. I think it's his

just understanding of music in general and understanding interesting roles that the guitar can play within different types of music. And you got to also understand with Nile Rogers, part of what helps it sound iconic is that he used it a lot in so many iconic songs, not just chic, from him producing David Bowie, Madonna, you know, all these insanely iconic albums and insanely iconic artists in general,

he's a big part of that sound as a producer. But I think because he has producer ears, He has songwriter ears. He's adjusting the role of the guitar in a lot of songs to be, all right, in this one, it needs to be more just like a tambourine or shaker that has some notes. Or this one, it needs to be outlining the chords and the kind of bullseye Nile Rogers thing that we think of. I think what helps his sound and his approach is that he's kind of, he's laid the blueprint

in so many of those ways. Okay, if you want that sort of rhythm guitar, you have the stuff with the chucks, without the chucks. Do you want single note of that thing, or do you want chord comping? Do you want more notes or more chucks? Do you want it to be an instrumental hook, or do you want it just to be something

that kind of sits in the background in the rhythm? Between everything that he's played on and everything that Quincy has presented, produced, that to me really helped define so many different realms that the rhythm guitar could fit it. And we're not even talking about rock and roll. We're not talking about the rhythm in jazz or blues. You don't think of rhythm guitar in a lot of it, but if you look, one shot, one opportunity. You know, that is an iconic guitar part. It's an iconic rhythm. guitar part. But you know, you don't necessarily associate the guitar with M&M. Or like the beginning of

Miley Cyrus's party in the USA, perhaps. Yeah, exactly. You know, that sort of thing, even just the choicing, the choicing of how many notes to put in the voicing. It stems from the Nile lineage. Gosh, right now, I mean, I hear the chucks now after talking to you. I'm like, that's all I'm going to think about from now on is what, oh, is this Minneapolis? guitar is this? Totally. Guitar is there? Are there chucks? Is it bubble? This is really fun. Corey Wong, breaking down the intricacies of rhythm guitar with you is more fun than anyone should have on Tuesday afternoon. But let's take a type 5. When we come back, I want to

dig into another aspect of your musical career. It's as the host and band leader of the new variety show, Corey, and the Wong notes. I want to hear about stepping out from the rhythm guitar shadows into the bright lights of the big stage. See you in a minute. Maria, you have a podcast now and you need to start acting like it. What's the first step as a podcaster? Well, you have to ask lots of questions. I'm Maria Sharpova and I'm hosting a new podcast called Pretty Tough. Every week, I'm sitting down with trailblazing women at the top of their game to discuss ambition, work ethic, and the ups and downs that come on the path to achieving greatness.

I have a few pretty tough questions for you. Okay. Ready? Do not sugarcoat something for me. No, no. We'll dive into their stories and get valuable insights from top executives, actors, entrepreneurs, and other individuals who have inspired me so much in my own journey. Pretty tough is your front row seat to the women who have demonstrated the power in being unapologetic in their pursuits. I hope you'll join us.

New episodes drop Wednesdays on YouTube or in your favorite podcast app. If you go online and look for Corey Wong and The Wong Notes, you will be treated to 10 episodes of musical brilliance, comedic chops, and wonderful conversations with insights into being a great musician and, if I may say so, being a good human. What's up, internet? I'm Corey, and these are the Wong Notes. This is Corey and the Wong Notes.

Corey, where did this come from? What led you to think, like, okay, I need to revive, the 1960s variety show for the modern era and in doing so comment on the trials and revelations of being a musician in the 21st century, like break it down for us. I've been fascinated by late night TV and just talk shows, variety shows in general. As a kid, I loved the Muppets. As a kid, I loved watching Letterman's top 10 or a lot of these old variety shows, these late night shows that have bands, I thought, well, I love the, obviously I'm a musician, I feel like I want a little more attention on the band. So I've always thought it'd be fun to have a show

where it's like a late show meets S&L if the musicians took over. And finally, about a year and a half ago, I was like, all right, I'm going to see if I can bring this thing to life. What would actually go into it? So I started scripting ideas for, the show flow, ideas for sketches, themes of shows, and just how to slip music in there and keep musical themes happening. And found a team of people to help me kind of formulate those thoughts and scripts together. And it just went for it. And just said, all right, screw it. I'm going to do it in coordination with my album. Because my last several albums, what I've done is I go in the studio and I make the album and we'd film it on a phone and, you know, that's fun. And that's kind of

helps point people to the album, get people interested in it, see how we do our process. But I thought, what if this time around it was much higher production? But it's also just like a, it's a vehicle to promote my album that I make. Because in the end, for me, music is the number one thing that I do. So I thought it was a fun way to tie into the album. And, you know, it's just a big part of my album budget, my album release strategy, whatever, all the things that you need to think about when you're making your own albums as an independent artist. And I just thought to myself, screw it.

Let's do it. I really want to do it. And I have people around that I know can help me make it happen. So I'm going to make it happen. I wanted to have a large band, 11-piece band, plus guests on most episodes. and a pretty tight crew, like, you know, a few people for audio and a few people for video, and then a couple extra hands here and there.

But, you know, that's still a large operation for an independent artist. But for me, it's an investment into my career, and more than anything, it's just me finding ways to keep my creative flower blooming. I appreciate your humility, but I think it's something that not a lot of musicians could pull. off. I mean, episode four features the saxophonist Grace Kelly, and it starts with a sketch. And every, and every sketch in the show is not, it's comedy, but it's like, it's this specific genre of, like, taking some aspect of, of the musician's life or like the, or how we appreciate music and just, like, putting a little funny microscope on it. So this is a conversation, an argument between a family that breaks down along each one of them being obsessed with a different genre of music

and almost coming to fist to cuffs over it. Skaw? Corey, I'm telling you this as a guest. We don't say that word in my home. Again, you confuse third wave ska punk with classic two-tone bands like the specials, which you'd know if you ever talk to your wife. I like a message to you, Rudy.

Stay out of this. And then you go into a performance of, of the track from your album, Tiki Hut, Strut, with this killer, 11-piece band, full horn section. It's just, it's lights out. And then an interview with Grace Kelly, I mean, it's like, this is, this is a big production, Corey. This is, uh, this is ambitious.

It's my most ambitious project that I've done. And a lot of people just ask me, like, how do you do this? Like, yeah. How do you, I mean, honestly, the number one question that I get asked is like, how are you affording this? Because, you know, I think what's interesting is that, you know, and I'll speak candidly here.

Sure. Not that I haven't throughout this entire interview, but it seems like, you know, in the general eye, in the general public's eye, you're either a starving artist or you are this like multi-millionaire or whatever. And people don't allow for there to be a middle ground. And, you know, for me, I live a pretty simple lifestyle. Like, I have a 2008 Toyota Sienna minivan where the mirror is kind of at right now being, it's duct taped to the, you know, my mortgage is like $1,200, you know. And I live well under my means. So I do that because I want to invest in the art that I create. and instead of, you know, like most people, when they start to have a successful career,

rightfully so, they start buying nicer things or start living a little more of an extravagant lifestyle. And that's totally fine. That's great. But I think for me, what I felt more comfortable doing is just putting any of my wins back into my art and into the things that to me feel more fulfilling, you know, like it'd be great to buy a new car, but I don't think that's going to really fulfill me. What's going to be more fulfilling is making a project that will live on and that I can feel like I really was able to execute a creative vision no matter what the success level of it is. So I don't know. To me, yeah, Not everybody can pull it off, but I think also not a lot of people have the discipline to pull it off both on the side of logistics and just on the side of like, all right, this is really what it's going to take to do this. And here's all the people we need to coordinate. Here's all the things that go into it. But also, a lot of the people that I work with are really close friends of mine and they understand where I'm at and they're not charging me. You know, they're insane, full.

day rates for everything. You know, like when you work with your, like some of my friends, they'll ask me to play on something. It's like, I don't know. Yeah, we're friends. I'll just, whatever. Whatever your budget is, I'm fine. And some of my, of course, you have to, you have to honor and respect people's time and people's artistry and all that sort of stuff. So, yeah, I don't know. I'm rambling on that. But I think, you know, that's a side of the music industry that some people just are uncomfortable talking about. They're uncomfortable talking about the business side or the money side. And I think it's important to talk about it, especially, because so many people now are independent artists,

how else are you going to learn, unless other people are willing to talk about it? I appreciate you sharing that. I hope it's going to encourage other musicians to think about how they could think outside the box as well and bring their art off the record, so to speak, and into these new contexts. I also often fantasize about what would happen

if Paul Schaefer took over the lake show, and it kind of feels like you're watching that. Well, and also, transparently, look, dude, this is now my audition tape for that role the next time they need somebody. Hopefully my name's in the running. And do you want to know if I can pull it off or not? Well, see for yourself if you like what I do. If not, that's totally fine. But at least you'll know if I'm the right person. You'll get a pretty clear idea. If somebody's never been a band leader for this sort of thing and they don't necessarily have an audition tape for it, you're jumping into a little more

unknown. Now I'm just kind of letting you know if you are a... So this is good, this is good. You know, a lot of late night hosts listen to Switch John Pop religiously. So you've, you know, I think you're definitely reaching the right audience. Good. That's actually the only reason I agreed to do this. Yeah, I hate talking about rhythm guitar, clearly. I'm only here to get a gig. Corey Wong, thanks so much for joining us. Anything you want people to know about where to find your art before we go? I'm on all the platforms, you know? It's Spotify, Apple, YouTube, wherever you consume your music. I'm there, most likely.

Corey, I hope we can have you back at some point in time. I love that. This is really great. To check in on the evolution of rhythm guitar. Until then, we wish you all the best. Thanks, man. Appreciate it. Switched-on Pop is produced by Nate Sloan, Richard Armistrong, and me, Charlie Harding. We're engineered by Brandon and Farland illustrations by Iris Gottlieb and social media by Abby Barr. Our executive producers, Arnashokuroa and Hanna Rosen. We're a member of the Vox Media Podcast Network and a production of Vulture.

You can catch us at Switch Dun Pop on Twitter and Instagram, where we like to post all kinds of research and extra tidbits from the episodes. So follow us there. And we'll be back again next week with a deep dive into some more retro music. Until then, thanks for listening.