Switched on Pop - Robert Glasper on jazz, basketball, and his score for "Winning Time"

Episode Date: June 21, 2022

Robert Glasper is the only artist to have an album debut in the top 10 of 4 different Billboard charts. He's a musical polymath whose resume ranges from Kendrick Lamar to Herbie Hancock. At the piano, he serves up jazz licks worthy of Mary Lou Williams before segueing into a Nirvana cover. Glasper brings his diverse skill set to bear on his latest project, the score for the HBO series Winning Time: The Rise of the Lakers Dynasty, composed in collaboration with "Succession" soundtracker Nicholas Britell. It's not just Glasper's musical chops that made him the perfect candidate for the gig: in a past life, he was a baller himself. Nate spoke with Glasper about crafting the sound of the 1980s, improvising soundtrack themes on the spot, and what jazz and basketball have in common. Songs Discussed Robert Glasper - Over, FTB, "Winning Time" and "The Photograph" Themes Nicholas Britell - "Succession" and "Moonlight" Themes Morris Day and The Time - Get It Up Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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I'm musicologist Nate Sloan. Robert Glasper is a pianist and composer whose work blurs the lines between jazz, hip-hop, and pop. He's won multiple Grammys, including Best R&B album for his release Black Radio, and he's worked with everyone from Kendrick Lamar to Herbie Hancock. Most recently, Glasper wrote the score alongside composer Nick Patel for the HBO series Winning Time, The Rise of the Lakers Dynasty, which follows Magic Johnson, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar,

and the rest of the legendary L.A. basketball squad, as they surge to prominence in the late 1970s and early 80s. First pick, a 1979 NBA draft, the Los Angeles Lakers select. Irvin Magic Johnson. I spoke with Robert Glasper about scoring on the fly, the challenge of channeling vintage tones, and what jazz and basketball have in common.

Here's our conversation. Robert Glasper, welcome to Switch Dawn Pop. Thank you so much for having me. Appreciate it. We're here to talk about your score for the HBO series winning time. And I'd like to know

what made you sign on to this project in the first place. The way I got on it was Nick Patel, who was the initial composer for him. And he's done so many amazing things already. You know, I was a fan of his. So when his people called my people, it was like, hey, Nick Patel

wants you to join him on a score. I was like, Yeah, I don't even know what it was. I was like, yeah. So you didn't even know what the project was. It was just a chance to work with Nick. Yeah, I knew he did succession, and I knew he did moonlight. So I was just like, man, I'm down, you know.

And then they told me what my mayor told me what it was. I was like, oh, absolutely. You know, so not only am I fan of Nick, but I'm a fan of basketball as well. I thought I was going to be a basketball player before a piano player, seriously. Seriously, really? I seriously thought that in junior high and my first year of high school, I realized that Jack Dream was not going to come true when I spent on the bitch the whole season. So I always say I slit the bitch over to the piano.

And that's been my David Grace there. But, you know, the Lakers, I remember watching the Lakers in the 80s with my dad. You know, my dad's a big fan. So I remember those Laker Boston rivalries. It was just all that combined like, Ellie, I'm down. Maybe we could talk more about Nick Bertel and working with him. Yeah. So you heard that he was involved and you jumped at the chance.

So what was it about his approach to music and scoring that really resonated with you? He's a master at theme and variation. And what that means is you have a small piece of music, like a melody, that is the characteristic of a feeling. Or even it could be for a person like this melody represents that person. So whenever you see that person in a conflict in the show or the movie, that melody is going to play. It's like a musical identity for things. Right.

And Nick is so good at doing that, but then also having variation on it. So you're not hearing the exact same thing, but it's the same thing kind of changed up a little bit. And so it helps really tell a story musically. And that's the key to a lot of this is the theme and the variation. And like I said, I was watching Succession throughout the pandemic. That was one of our favorite shows. So it was just like, oh shit, hell yeah. You know what I mean?

Let's go. Absolutely. Absolutely. One of the unique things about winning time is that it's set in the late 70s and 80s. So it's taking place over a long period of time and it has all these references to past musical eras. So when you're composing, I'm curious how. How much are you thinking of that, trying to channel the sound of the 70s, of the 80s versus how much you're trying to make it sound contemporary? Yeah.

What is that process like? We're trying to always stay true to the time period. So it's the first season. So right now, we've just been in the 70s, early 80s. That's where we are right now. Oh, okay. We know what sounds were used in the 70s in the early 80s. We know what those sounds are, even all the way down to the way you.

tune the drum set because drums in the 70s had a certain kind of sound. And you have to have musicians who understand those things. And all the guys that I use, they all understand those things. And they're all very particular about those things. My guitar player might be like, oh, you know what? Let me change the strings on this. Oh, my bass player might, let me change the strings on this. Because in this time period, these were the strings that were used in most of these kind

of songs for this kind of sound. Those things help tell the story. You know what I mean? It'll be weird if you're watching Magic Johnson in the early 80s, but you're hearing Drake. You're hearing something else in the whole different time period. You know, I'm like, what's happening? They did so well capturing that time period. The way it looked, the way people are talking, the way they're dressed, the way they're

shot it. Like, so we have to match that with the music. From here on out, we are playing to win. I'd love to get even more detailed. Like, are there certain keyboards you use, certain microphones? How deep do you go in terms of getting that late 70s, early 80s sound? Well, we use certain keyboards that were used in the late 70s. Like the mold, there's a keyboard called the Moot.

And that was used a lot in that time period. We had all the keyboard. Here, Jupiter. We had profit. So my engineer, QMillion, QMillion we call it, his name is Keith Lewis. But he's engineered all of my album since 2009, and he's just a genius at that sound. He's the musician, too. He used to play in Morris Day in the Time.

Oh, wow. And the eighth. Amazing. So he's a musician and he's an engineer, and he's a producer, which is the leg up on most engineers, you know what I mean, because he just understands everything from so many levels, so many corners of it. So he already knows what to tweak to make things sound the way. to meet the sound as well.

The level of authenticity in the show, like you were saying, with the costumes, with the settings, even with the film stock itself. Absolutely. The attention to detail is so meticulous. So it's pretty cool to hear that the music also has a similar level of attention to detail. Exactly. And they allowed me to go. I went down to the set.

That's where I first met Nick in person at the set. We met at the set in L.A. And then after that, I met Magic and I met Kareem, you know, the actors. I met them at the thing. And it was just like so fucking spot on. Yeah. It's crazy, yo. Like, because I know Kareemboire actually a few years ago, he did a NBA.com interview or something.

And they're just talking to him about, and he's a big jazz head. And they asked him, so what music are you listening to right now? And he said me. He said, listen to the. Robert Glassberg. Wow. And I think it was my album in My Element. And he was like, yeah, you know, I love Robert's music, something, blah, blah, blah, blah.

And I saw that interview. My manager, I was like, oh, shit, Karin Ful-Jibla. So we reached out to him and we sent him some records and sent him some gear, like some of my skeleton has, some of my merch. And then a few weeks later, we see him online with pictures with my fucking skullio. I'm like, oh, snap. So that happened. That's another reason why I was like, hell yeah, I'm going to do this score.

You're damn right. Because me, Kareem, my boys. That's my homie, you know. I know. With Kareem, it's almost annoying in a way that, like, he's not only one of the greatest basketball players of all time, but he's also a better music writer than I am in a lot of ways. So it's like, just pick a lane. Exactly. Like for sure. You know, leave some for the rest of us.

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the view on immigration from the bottom up instead of the top down. That's this week on America Actually, every Saturday in your audio and video feeds. So you mentioned you've got your own experience as a basketball player. And especially with jazz, I feel like it's almost a cliche you sometimes hear that jazz and basketball have a lot in common. You know, you can put five people who have never played together before on the court or in a studio and they can do these. incredible things together. Improvisatory off the top of their heads.

Have you found that to be true? Absolutely. Is there some truth to that cliche about jazz and basketball? Absolutely. Like with jazz, everything's in the moment.

It's supposed to be. If you have five different players, most of the time that that's what the whole point of jazz is things are in the moment. Certain things are rehearsed like plays. When you're playing basketball, okay, boom, boom, boom.

But then when defense comes, then those players, will get interrupted. Same thing in music. You can rehearse all you want in your room by yourself, even with another musician. But when you add other musicians to it, it's going to change because now they're saying something. And you have to react to that in the same way and figure that out. You know what I mean? So it's literally could be the same, the same thing. A lot of times there is a point guard in music. There's a music director that's kind of dictating the situation. And that's the point guard. But they still have to be in the moment as well, because things are happening. That's the same thing with the music.

director. We can call plays all the time. We can say, hey, you know, guitar player, you play next, drummer, you do this next, you know, we're coming up to this. But again, it's still the moment. So you have to be prepared for things to not go your way because you're in the moment. That's definitely the thing. And I just use the musical cliche for basketball, well, basketball cliche for music, actually. Right before I got on with you, I was helping put together some line of notes of mine for this box that I'm going to put out. I have a record called Black Radio and have a record called Black Radio Part 2. And those two records are the only records in

Billboard chart history that debuted in the top five of three different genres at the same time. So Black Radio 1 and Black Radio 2, when they came out, they debuted top five on the R&B charts, on the R&B hip-hop on the hip-hop R&B charts, and on the jazz charts at the same time. And at the end of the quote,

after I've said that, I said that's a real crossover. Because the crossover in the basketball only works if you're equally as good with both hands. Because then the defense doesn't know which way you're going to go because you could go left because you can dribble left. You can go right because you can't drum a right. So it's hard to guard you because you don't know. You know what I mean? Same thing in music. A real crossover is you have to be good at this genre and you have to be good at that genre to cross over from one to the other in a true.

way, the true fashion. That's why I said that's the music and crossover. It's the real cross-over. What do you think it is that pushed you to embrace that crossover, that moving from one genre to another? Like Kareem said, embracing the history of the music, but pushing it forward into the future. Because a lot of people, especially those who come out of jazz education programs, I think, are maybe afraid to innovate, to cross over. So what do you think pushed you to always have that multi-genre aspect to your music? Well, initially what pushed me there was because my mother was a singer and pianist, and she sang all kinds of genres.

During the week, she used to sing in a jazz club, in an R&B club, and a country club, disco, and then she would be the music director at church on Sunday. She was a musical mutt, and that's why I'm a musical mutt. When I walked into the house, you don't know what she was going, because she's at rehearses at the house. We have music. We have instruments up at the house. So her band would come over and rehearse. And every day it was a different kind of band, different kind of music. So I kind grew up with this melting pot of music. And so I didn't know just one thing. You know, I grew up with all the things. Well, certainly that experience seems to pay off in the score for winning time.

Because over the course of the first series, you hear music from not only different genres, but radically different mood. So I'd love to briefly talk. talk about one music cue that really stood out to me when I was watching. And it's from the very first episode of the first season. It's a flashback to Magic Johnson's childhood in Lansing, Michigan. Yeah. A memory of him practicing basketball with his father, a sanitation worker, and the score is kind of slow. Right. A little elegiac. It's got trumpet or maybe flugelhorn. It's a moment that sounds, for lack of a better word, very jazzy to me. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And so I'm curious, like, how do you generate that kind of material for this soundtrack? Yeah. Nick was really cool with letting me in my band. We use my band. We use my cats, the cat's in that you, which is why he called me. Because he's normally doing more stuff with orchestra, not funk and, you know, R&B and funk and disco shit and jazzy shit. That's not necessarily what he's been doing. You know what I mean?

So he called me for that part. So that was the cool part about it is to let the things that we do, that we do the best shine in those things. So I'm used to, this isn't my first go-round with series. I've been scoring a few series and I did a few movies, you know, so I could quickly understand the vibe when it's needed. You know what I mean? Like, hey, this is kind of a flashback, kind of melancholy vibe,

but not so melancholy, a little bit optimistic, you know, it's like, okay, you know, I kind of understand that now. Before, when I first started scoring, it was confusing. Because like, what? You know, you just named four feelings. How the fuck am I supposed to give you all those feelings? You know, can it be sad, but kind of sad, not really sad, but optimistic at the same time, triumphant, what?

Are you talking about, you know? You know, but now I, now I, now I understand. I understand what people mean and I understand the vibe. So it takes no time really to, you know, to give a few vibes to that. How about this? How about this? How about this? You know, sometimes we'll give all three.

So it sounds like there's a level of improvisation in the room when you're creating these themes. Is that correct? Oh, it's all improv. Yeah, wow. It's all improv. Nick tried to bring charts in the first time we recorded. It was adorable. I was like, oh, look at Nick.

Bringing in shots, being responsible, being ready, being prepared. That's the high role. I was like, I don't know. Don't you dare write down fuck. Yeah, when you leave that folder over there, he's laugh. It was so funny. I was like, trust me. Because he just trusts me with my guy.

You know, he just trusts my ears. I was like, trust me, bro. Just pull up the screen. We'll look at it. We're going to come up with the vibes on the spot. And trust me, you're going to be satisfied. And after the first one, he was like, oh, my God, what just happened? And I'm like, yo, I'll tell you, we don't even write down any of this.

So you said it's a very different thing, scoring, writing music, composing for someone else, for someone else's feelings, someone else's moods. But I'm curious if these experiences that you have with scoring, whether it's winning time or another series or film, does that influence your work as a soul? solo artists. Like, you released the album Black Radio 3 in February. Is there any influence from your scoring work that goes into your own solo projects? I think there is. I know for sure, obviously, like, the way I work on my solo projects, one million percent influenced how I score, for sure. You know, me, I bring the way I score is literally how I write music for my album.

You know, we just fucking jam. And things come. You know what I mean? It's just like, oh, okay, boom, boom, boom. And it's 99% of it's in the moment. I rarely look at things and come up with an idea, then writing down and boom, boom, boom. Like, I'm truly off the cuff.

Wow. I'm truly like, I'm scoring this while I'm looking at it. Amazing. I score things while the director sitting there. I scored a whole movie like that. I never read anything down. The record sat next to me for three days. And I scored this movie caught the photograph.

It came out like right before the pandemic here. I literally see the director was in the studio with me for three days. And I just, we pulled up each scene and I just freestyle each scene. She would tell me what she's feeling, the thought she's, you know, what she's trying to portray it. And then I would try something. She'll be like, not so much that would. I'll try another thing. She's like, yeah, no, no, no, no.

Then we got it. Next one. But we'll move, you know what I mean? To me, that's faster. I like that better than you're across. the world, I'm across the world, and I'm sending you something. And when you get to it, when you finally are able to hear it, then you are looking at listening to it, then you don't even know what, if it makes you feel a certain way or not, you kind of like, it kind of does.

And you don't know what the, some directors don't know either verbally say what is missing. So that three days with her, I did the whole movie. All right. Valuable tips from the pros right here. This is really good. Intel. All those things. All those things. Love it. Rob, thank you so much for joining us here on Switched on Pop. Thank you. Absolutely. Appreciate you. Switched on Pop is edited by Jolie Myers, engineered by Brandon McFarland, illustrations are by Iris Gottlieb and community management by Abby Barr. Our executive producers are Nashat Kurwa and Hana Rosen, were production of Vulture and a member of the Vox Media Podcast Network. You can find

more episodes of Switched on Pop anywhere you get podcasts or our website, switchedonpop.com. Hit us up on Twitter, Instagram, at Switched On Pop, and tell us what your favorite TV scores are. Next week, we're speaking to a really exciting artist, Rina Sawayama, about their latest release. And until then, thanks for listening.