Switched on Pop - Samara Cyn is rap's best new writer

Episode Date: May 8, 2026

How do you write a rap verse that's clever without saying so? Samara Cyn, one of the sharpest young writers in hip-hop, joins us to talk about Detour, her new EP about going analog. We get into wordplay versus narrative, the Missy Elliott blueprint behind "oooshxt!", and why she takes a knee in the vocal booth when a line won't come out. Songs Discussed Samara Cyn — "Sinner" Samara Cyn "BUSHWICK" Samara Cyn — "FREE" Samara Cyn — "Highest" Samara Cyn — "oooshxt!" Samara Cyn — "summer's turning" Samara Cyn — "over influence" Samara Cyn — "Nomad" Samara Cyn — "Bad Brain" Newsletter: https://switchedonpop.substack.com/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Welcome to Switchdown Pop. I'm songwriter Charlie Harding. My favorite rapper right now is hands down Samara Sin. It's not an original take on. She has been co-signed by Lauren Hill, Erica Bidue and Noss. XXL named her one of 2025s freshman class, alumni include Kendrick Lamar, Jay Cole, Megan the Stallion, Tyler the Creator, she's received the South by Southwest Grilka Prize.

She's part of Rolling Stones' Feature 25, Billboard's Hip Hop Rookie of the Month, and an EP. She put out last summer called Backroads, Spin called the Sixth Best of the Year. Spend my rent money on these brain new teeth. Out on my plate, got a big old feast. Brand new bed come a brand new fees. Swimming in height like a big white tea. She came up through spoken word and poetry and learned to rap by studying Slick Rick and Loopy Fiasco.

she is quickly becoming one of the best. Falling with footsteps, can't finish it. With your love side, a little bitch, you'll trip on first trip. Now she's back with her third project. It's an EP called Detour, and I got to talk with her about it. So here's my conversation with my current favorite rapper, Samarra Sin. Samara, thank you so much for being a sweatshapop. Absolutely.

Thank you for having. I'm really excited to chat with you. Yeah, I'm excited to. All right, so Detour, your latest album. Right. It's about being human, going analog. Yeah. It opens with a song called Free.

Yes. I just want to fall in and over and over again and over. It moves through sort of jazz fusion into break beats. Can you tell me about the sense of freedom that you're looking for on that song and within detour? Yeah, I think I started looking for it as a person first. What does that mean? I just feel like as a kid, like you're hushed a lot and shushed and like as a woman, you're kind of taught to not take up a lot of space and to be quiet, like not be super loud and like out there.

And I think in my regular life, I think I can be outgoing, but I feel pretty reserved. I often feel it spilling over into the things that I, like my performance aspect types of things. And so I think I didn't want to put a lot of weight on this new project in terms of like overthinking everything. And like, this should be fun. This should be a fun time. And it kind of felt like I was starting to get into the pit where I was kind of not having as much fun. It was almost too serious the things that I was doing. So I think with this project, it was a challenge and a practice for myself to allow, give myself the permission to be free.

The goat analog aspect is not even necessarily in like the physical sense. It's more so like go back to the first invention before you polished it and filtered it and you know, like rehearse the thing over and over and over again. Let's go back to the first invention, the first feeling of the thing. And if it's not all of these things that you think it has to be the lyrical aspect. You know what I mean? Like let it be what it is in this moment and like lean into that instead of judging it the whole way through. And so that's where I was.

I think with detour, I didn't want to put a concept on it. I didn't want to put restrictions on it. And with free the song itself, the practice for that. was just to like get loud and like try to not be so in my head and in my body about it. Because when you're in the studio and you're recording, there's a bunch of people in the studio, it feels like a performance as well, you know? So it's like, let me jump around the room and scream and shout and like in somebody's house, you know, which yelling at doors is crazy.

But it's just like, let me try to get in my body and be able to do it in front of other people, even if there are people that I'm comfortable with, like, let me try to do it with an audience even still. And so that's where free came from. Okay, so then if you're trying to invoke a sense of freedom, what are the conditions that let you write? Like, when does writing happen if you're trying to bring freedom into the project?

This one was tough because I was making music without anything that I had to say at the time. It felt like that. I think with this one, I chose to make it with my friends, which helped, I think, me feel a little bit more comfortable. I chose to make it with people that I view as like free people, you know, like they do what they want and they're kind about it and, you know, they're cool with other people doing what they want. So like the environment, I think, in the room was really nice to have.

And I think it's maybe this time it was good that I didn't exactly have anything to say for what the intention ended up being for this project. It's almost appropriate that the opening thing that we hear on the album is a fretless bass. So kind Just kind Just kind You know Moving freely No frets

So Perra Unbound Right Pera walks into the studio On the first day And he has like Three

Guitar cases He's like What's up legend He puts all his stuff down He's like Look what I got And he pulls out This fretless bass

He's like Yeah It's gonna get crazy Every single song He's like Britley Like He's so into it

And he He played a lot of like instruments on the entire project and it was just it was a lot of fun he was so excited about it we were excited about it too but yeah it makes it feel really alive at the beginning and then you're kind of warming up at the beginning because sort of like yeah giving yourself almost like a mantra it feels like yeah which then busts open into break beats just tell me about that that musical gesture that you're wanting to say yeah um i think unpolished sometimes this view is like maybe chaotic sometimes and unrefined.

And so we were trying to find a way to showcase that sonically. And it needed a switch. The beginning was very sweet and quiet. And the build came pretty naturally. You know, it's like, okay, get this build going. But it just, it needed to go somewhere bigger. And again, it's like, it immediately felt like the intro. And so I'm like, this is going to have to represent.

The project in a way, like, I think we just need to let it be, like, loud and ridiculous at the end. And so once we got the drum bass sent in by Lucas, this guy named Lucas, so it just was like a drum loop, live drum loop, and Para, like, got the drum loop. We were like, that's exactly, yep, okay, like, immediately the whole room kind of confirmed the thing, and then it snowballed from there into being, like, what it was. I had gotten this It's like a pill bottle

And it says like Writer's Block Relief And you can open it And in the pills There are little like scripts Or like prompts that you could like Read through to get ideas and stuff And a lot of them were really corny

But some of them were actually really cool challenges And Do you remember any of them? Like some of the corny ones were like You know write a song about your pet I don't know There's other stuff too Like write a song about like

Write a love song to an object or like that type of stuff, which was kind of cool. But there were two that were really interesting that we actually ended up trying to, like, utilize. And one was try to write a song without any pronouns, I, we, they, he, her, anything. No pronouns at all, which is, like, a lot of times when you're writing, you're writing about someone or like, or myself or I, da-da-da. So that was really interesting to try to, like, find a song with, like, less naming of self. Like, it's just about something. That's how we got the outro.

But the first one was write a song with 20 words or less. Ooh. Right. For someone who writes often very long rap verses, that's a challenge. It's a challenge because you have to lean on space. And so what better space, exactly. So what better space to have than like drum and bass that still fills up the thing? And I can just jump around and freaking, you know what I'm saying, go crazy.

So I think we got to like 25, 27 words on that one. So we didn't quite meet the challenge. But I was like, yeah, it turned into something really cool. So we kind of open with a detour. We're in detour. It takes a bunch of musical detours. I think musically, people who've been following you for a minute, probably surprised by some of the really fun musical choices are happening there.

And then, you know, we get into a whole diversity of genres, styles, lots of different vocal stylings that I want to talk about. But, you know, you talked about this feeling of, like, being unpolished. and writing from a place of, almost like, I think about it as like, from like Buddhism, from like beginner's mind. Yeah. We're just like not starting from any expectations. Absolutely.

And yet, when I listen to your rhymes, boy, are they like polished and thoughtful and how do you know when you have a great rhyme? Ooh, you can feel it. Yeah? Where do you feel it? Ooh. I think in your chest, I think when I write something and I'm like, ah, you know, I can like laugh and go after.

then it's like, okay, I feel like I'm cooking for real. Do you have an example on detour where you really felt that? Honestly, highest, I felt that on highest. Not necessarily in like the rap verse, though. It was just, the hook was just insane. And it felt good in the room. Like, that was the only song where we were all in the room for that song together. All the other days, like people popped in and out of like the camp and stuff.

And we were listening to it back. and it was like it ended and we're all like Jesus like okay cool like this this feels like the one from the project that is gonna be the thing like it just felt good in your body like warm and good in your body lyrically though like I don't know maybe like

cadence wise I have one called ooh shit can I guys? Yeah yeah it's called ooh shit turn me up oh shit getting right oh shit to put it up oh shit this shit go crazy

I do it so sweet, oh, babe So, like, catas-wise, that one was also like, ugh, this is crazy. There's a moment there where you know shit where you speed up, the rhythm of intensity just, like, builds up. I want to see if I can find that moment real quick. Every time it gives me this, like, tingle.

Yeah, I got the energy to get a party of a starry. Yeah, you know the moment. You got the energy. It does the thing. Right. It literally does the thing that you're telling me to feel. So on, oh shit, you have both the big ego, sort of divulgatory Kidopause.

So on, oh shit, you have both the big ego, braggadocio, but also this very vulnerable sort of divulgent side. Why both of those feelings in the same song? I'm curious to know, like, what do you think is the vulnerable divulgent side on that one? Honestly, I feel that one we were literally just talking shit. You're just talking shit? Literally just talking shit.

I think there's a vulnerability in the way that you're like. speaking about like my tongue so sharp it was cutting his cheek yeah only smile when he see me he ain't spoken away because my tongue so sharp it was cutting his cheek got to work for the blessing he's the bleed when he sneezed uh yeah um yeah so that one we leaned heavily into like influences from like missy elliott and like nettoons you can hear in the beat even in the video you have a sort of like that awesome wide angle missy elliott style yeah yeah So that was the intention there. It's very like Gwen Stefani, Neptune, like for real collaboration type.

So like the goal was just for it to be simple and context, complex and rhyme scheme, clever as well. I think Missy Elliott, that's where like the Missy Elliott stuff comes in because like, because my son's so sharp it was cutting his cheek. Got to work for the blessing. He's still bleed when he sneezed. Huh. Like, you know, it's just like... Gotta work it. Yeah, I'm just like, I'm so smooth that like, it's like, you know, like, the way that she talks about things and like the way that she's braggadocious is very clever. Missy got something to say.

I ride down the block in an escalate. Bling, bling, all in your face. I think you might need to put on your shades. I know you're filming on. You're hating on me, but you're hearing me on. And it's very like you can, you can imagine it. Like, you could see it while she's talking about it. And so, like, once it got to the second verse, I was.

I was pulling teeth by that point, and I was like, all right, how do you make the second verse? Live up to the first verse because the flows were just so, like, in the room, like, doing the flows. We would write hooks together. We would start songs. We would write hooks. And then after everybody would leave, I would write rap verses. And after everybody left, I'm working on this second verse. And I'm like, it took like three hours, I think, just for me to get the second verse.

What are some of the details that for you as a rapper where you're like, that's clever? Like what are some of the just like the techniques and things when you're delivering? You're like, oh, I did that really well. So you can't, how do you talk about something without saying what that thing is? How do I tell you I was listening to stereo without saying stereo? And so how do I tell you I'm clever without saying, yeah, I'm clever? Because you're literally writing a song about how clever you are. Right.

It's pretty mad. My tongue's so sharp. It was cutting of shit. You know what I mean? Like, which sounds like we were kissing. it sounds like all these other things. No, I'll talk so slick that, you know what I'm saying? Like, there's a level of like, oh, I can see that as you're building it out. And so that's one thing. I like to say the thing, the way that you didn't expect it. And I like for it to have imagery as well. I really try for it to have imagery because there's so much music out. Because we're all consuming the music. There's a way that you think to say something that a lot of other people would also think to say it that same way. I think that's where like the clever aspect of it comes in is how you say something.

We all have the same, what, six emotions? We all have the same. Same senses. Right, right. So it's like, how do I talk about something that we all know about a way that you've never heard it talked about before? And I think when I know that it's not quite there yet, that's when I'm like, this can be more clever, you know?

Do you have tools for yourself to get yourself to that next line? Sometimes I have to step away. I try to think of like analogies, and sometimes I try to like look around the room to help inform the analogy. Sometimes I'll go and listen to rappers that I respect and kind of play some of their stuff to be like, you know, that was cool. Like I listened to Miss Yelio a lot that day. And my back of my, I'm like, what would Miss Leelio do? You know, what would Miss Leelio do on this? You should all ask ourselves that if we want to be more creative.

Right. 100%. So, you know, there's a few things. Sometimes it also just doesn't visit you that day and that's okay. You just got to come show up the next day. Be free? Yeah. Okay, so maybe more braggadocious than divulgent and vulnerable. I think there's a certain vulnerability in saying how clever I am. But yeah, okay, maybe we can talk about like the song highest. Walking impatient, fast like anticipation. Go give me time. That, yeah, for sure. highest super vulnerable. You talk about having to fake it to you make it. You are a phenomenal rapper. You

blow everybody's minds. But at some point you had to develop your talent. At what threshold did you know you had it as you were as you were practicing? How did you go about it? And how did you know when you had it? I don't know. People ask me this. I say something different every single time. I know when I chose to make music, I still sometimes don't think that I have it. So I think there's just like the, you want to get vulnerable, you know what I mean? Like, I think there's still times where I'm like, I don't know this for me. And that's just like the raw, the raw side of the thing. But like, I try not to make decisions that are based in fear.

Yeah. For anybody low-key, like, go do the thing. And even if you don't have the confidence, do it anyway. Fake it. You know what I'm saying? Fake it like you can. And then nine times out of 10, you will cross the bridge, you know? Well, because this song, you know, especially in compared to listening to,

shit, it's like, oh, wait a minute, I'm seeing, you're showing us both sides of like how much you both believe in yourself, but also that internal mind that everybody has. Pretty much everyone I've ever spoken to unless they're a complete total narcissist has that internal mind, that internal voice that says, you're not good enough, this will never happen for you, all that kind of stuff. Right. Why do you want to show both sides of that? Well, I think it's just like not, like real.

Yeah. That simple. It's real. Yeah. And I mean, to be fair, like, I don't make music for nobody else but me. You know, like the act of writing the music and like making the music, I think it's like really like therapeutic and it's a way for me to like voice my thoughts. I love by myself. You know what I mean? Like I, it's not a lot of people that I talk to outside of like talking to my music. And so like it's me rationalizing all of these things. Every single introspective thing that I talk about is something that I'm currently working through that space, currently working through that thing. And I think that's how you get like the raw emotion out of something. Like you have to. connect to it in some type of way. And I think that's like the times where I'm the most honest about whether it's like insecurity

or pride or like ego or I think people can relate to that because we all have those thoughts and feelings, you know? It's honest. Yeah, exactly. You talked about this need, you know, shit, to feel clever because that's what the song is about, very appropriate. How do you think as an artist about balancing narrative versus wordplay? I think about a song like you're saying.

single Summer's Turning off of the last album. Yeah. You have a Middle March reference in it. It's really clever. The world is changing middle march and we still get snow. They try to gas me up, but I'm still getting cold.

The sun come up outside my window. I think wordplay helps narrative, you know? I think you can also make a song, though, where there's not a lot of narrative and there's a lot of wordplay and it's still cool. Yeah, I feel like MF Doom is just like all wordplay. Absolutely.

I'm not going to stop listening to that. Right, right. And then there's other other rappers as well where there's like not as much wordplay, but they're talking about something that it's like, oh, I really relate to this and like you're articulating it in a way that, you know, I maybe wouldn't have been able to articulate myself or I have it said out loud or whatever. So there's like two sides of the thing.

I think having both gives you like a really great record. I think Kendrick does that very well. I feel like a chip of my shoulders. I feel like I'm losing my focus. I feel like I'm losing my patience. It's really great to have narrative. It's really great to have narrative. It's really great to have pure vibes, you know?

But when you can have narrative in a song that is pure vibes, I think that's the code that a lot of people are trying to crack. And very few people can accomplish cracking that code. Yeah. One of your biggest hits in sinners, I feel like that song does that just left and right. I'm a born center, better get that gone. 85 burning rubber till I get early. Slither with these snakes on me, Lord, have mercy. Hands in his chicken, no churches.

Throwing up to perjure. Lord, forgive me for these urges. I think about, you know, your line of how much your hands are in the chicken. Like, you're doing the work. No churches. Yeah. Oh, dang, that's clever. Yeah.

And then just, like, you know, relating your own experience of hustling through this life and character. It's characterizing it within the foundation story, the Genesis story, the relationship to Eve. Yeah. Constantly, it's like playing back and forth between your life, the first verses ever. It's so clever, and yet I feel like I'm on a story the entire way through. Yeah. Thank you.

Center's funny because Center was very clever. I was in a full estate when I made that. I was in my bonnet in Orlando, Florida. And I was actually going to Disney World. Fun? Yeah. That's so delicate and sweet in comparison to like a song called center. Right.

Right. I was performing at that they have like a dreamer. They have this thing called Dreamers Academy where they like they have like a, I guess conference or like workshops or whatever for like high school students that come through. And like then there's like performers and everything. It's all in like art and like music and other things like animation and all types of different art. And I performed there. So then I was going to Disney World and then we were like, while we're here, we should stop at the studio.

But yeah, the whole thing was very. free flowing, it happened very naturally. And so even looking back, it kind of like speaks to the fact that maybe something else is like speaking through you when you're writing something. Because there's times where I'll write something without the intention of it being as clever as it is. And then I read it. You know, I'm listening to it back and I'm like, that's a triple entendre. Okay. If you think about it because then, do, do, do.

So it's like, there are things in Center that, like, worked out perfectly. Eve being a rapper that I really admire. And eat also being... You know what I'm saying? Like, it's just like things that kind of like work out. I said on this project in over-influents, I have a song where I just rap straight through the whole thing. And I said, y'all PCOD, y'all some overtunes.

Y'all PCOD, y'all some overtens. I got PTSD from these over jigs. I was young when I got out of them broken jigs. I got set on one time I ain't over it. Had to walk out that house with a broken rib. Had to get myself together. They ain't perfect yet. And at the time, I didn't know that Overton was like an actual term.

The Overton window. Somebody has said, oh, yeah, Overton didda-da, and I was like, Overton. Like, Overton, they explained to me what it was, and I looked it up, and I was like, yeah, Overton window. Oh, wait, hold on. Yeah, you see, you know more about it than I do. Well, we're in a journalistic outfit here, right here. The Overton window is basically like the realm of acceptability, right? It's the things that we can talk about in public.

Yeah. Yeah. So I'm talking about simple-minded people in that song. And I was like, and I was talking about how, like, PC, like playing computer or whatever, like MPCs, non-person computer. I was talking about how like they're just super OD and like how y'all just walk through

and just being simple everywhere, y'all are overtains. And you know what I mean? Like, just a bunch of little overtines. And then that ended up being like an actual theory that I was like, my friend like, his face it too. I'm like, didn't even know it was that cool. Kind of sounds like you were writing a song about being a sinner and yet some kind of higher power was writing through you.

Yeah, I mean, yeah, for a sinner, for sinner it just happened very, quick. Yeah. Sennaise is also not my most, like, lyrically, I think, inclined song. Um, but for over-influence on this project, I felt like it was, I think there was, it was really clever writing. Yeah. In addition to, like, many different styles of writing, the sense of freedom you're invoking, one of the things that I really am attracted to in this project is that you use your voice in so many different ways. On top of being rapper, singer, you have different rap voices, like how you sound on nomad.

is direct and clear. Sometimes I'm scared to be away too long because if I'm away too long, I lose it forever. Like up until this point has only been luck. Luck, the distant cousin of design, a drug with hard with drones. A little from time of time is okay, but I prefer intention.

From another project, I think about on bad brain, you have this almost like muted trumpet like quality to the way you're approaching the vocal. Right. You're singing voice transforms. How do you think about approaching a vocal and building the sort of shape of the sound, the timbre of the sound for that verse?

I try to lean into where my voice is at at the moment when I'm creating. A lot of times I kind of like right outside of my range for that day and I have to like revisit. Nomad was very difficult for me, honestly. There wasn't like a lot of range happening on the song, but like getting that smooth vocal out after a long day, my talking voice is very raspy.

And so like when I sing a lot of times, it's very raspy as well. The goal with Nomad was for it to be sweet. It was supposed to be a sweet song. And so that like soft spoken version of myself was, you know, like let's let her shine a little bit and let's talk about something real. And we, Mia Sherwin, have like, this thing where like if you can't get the note out

or you have a hard time, like, getting through the verse or whatever, we take a knee. And I don't know why that works, but sometimes when you just, like, take a knee and you, like, lock in, you're, like, get the thing. And so it started with me taking a knee, and my voice was still cracking. And so then I took two knees,

and then my voice was still cracking. And then so eventually, like, my hand, my elbow, my knees, I'm, like, all the way close to the ground, and I'm just, like, trying to, I think, get the thing out. It's like maybe trying to ground yourself. and the feeling of like what this is supposed to be and like allowing it to come out the way that it's intended to.

There's a lot of physicality in your performance. Oh, yeah. I always say I'm not a technical singer. I started out in poetry, which translated into rap, which translated into, I'm the only one in the studio and I really want a singing hook,

so I'm just going to sing it myself, which translated to like now I'm actually like in vocalist and like trying to figure out my singing voice. And so... It's there. Right. It's just learning it and then figuring out how to make it do what I want what I'm asking it to do. There's a lot of times where I'm like, okay, do this.

And it's like, you know, I'm not going to do that. You know, so like trying to get there and figure out the right tools to allow yourself to get to get there. And I think like being grounded but also leaning on feeling has been like a big thing for me. Because I don't care if it's pitchy as long as the feeling is translated in the thing. I'll settle with that. Getting closer to the floor, like, hell, I'm my earth sign, so I just got to get grounded.

But reaching up, I always, I do one of these. If I'm doing something that fades out, I'll hit one of those. Like, it is like a... Wow, there's dance to the performance. Yeah, it's like, yeah, interpretive dance to get your vocals out.

I learned from an A&R yesterday, the head nod test. He's like, I just find myself if my head's not nodding anymore, that tells me something important. Yeah, yeah. And I realized, like, you know, every video I've ever seen of people in a studio making stuff is like heads are nodding. Right.

Which is to say that you're trying to make something that people are going to hear in their life in normal contexts in their kitchen at a club. Absolutely, yeah. Driving. And you're in this, like, concealed chamber with no windows where sound is perfectly treated. You almost have to put yourself in the mindset. And I think in some ways the mindset is actually more put yourself in your body. Like you have to move in order to get the performance and to feel the music and whether it's telling you it's working. Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah. For sure. I think it goes back to even like feeling something in your chest or like feeling in your stomach, it's like, like, that hit me somewhere. You know what I mean? Like when you kind of like, ooh, okay, you know, I love turning somebody face up. Like, I love turning my face up to good music too. So like, that's really good.

What was you say? Yeah, you know, so. There's a lot of movement in your work then from like, you know, you talked about needing to one up yourself on a shit, got to write this verse. like committing three hours to sit solo and make the thing happen and then also to be able to sort of flip and perform it and feel it yeah are there any tools or exercises you have to be able to like go from being in your mind into your body yeah box breathing is this like vocal lesson stuff no box is like that's like a uh like breathwork yeah um you breathe in for three or four seconds

you hold for three or four seconds, you breathe out for three or four seconds, and then you do it again. Gets you out of your head? It tries. It tries. There have been times where I'm about to go on stage and just breathe.

I can't. I can't right now. But yeah, I think like breathing, I think also like moving your body and like dancing around a little bit, like playing some records, having your headphones on or something like that, I think helps me get into my body.

I'm still finding my rituals. but like doing a vocal warm-up has recently been helping me like focus on something to where I'm not focusing on the thing I'm just warming up and I can count my breath and like do that type of thing

I find that like trying to sit down and meditate and like that does not work for me before like a performance or whatever I've tried to do like binaural beats with my headphones and just like sitting still and I'm like it's making worse

but yeah I think moving my body though jumping jacks stretching and things like that counting breath i think that kind of helps me get into my body before a show it's interesting you mentioned meditation not working i once worked with the meditation teacher who also was a um who studied the neuroscience of peak performance and he was a a coach to many sports teams and one of the things he looked at was you know oftentimes he's like a baseball player and they'll do their like you know grab the hat rub the side of their leg they have a routine and then they pitch.

And again, I was always like, come on, man, that's like really performative. Actually, what that helps you do is it puts you back in the physicality and the mindset of where you were the last time you were in peak performance. That doing a physical routine actually reignites when you were last great. Right. So it kind of makes sense that just sitting in silence is not enough. You got to like, you got to do your little routine. Yeah. Yeah, you have to do the routine.

I think finding the routine is the hard part because, like, there are things that I've done maybe like a few times on like, I actually don't think that that works. You know what I mean? Like, oh, like, I do it one time and then I don't do it this time. I'm like, no, I need to do that every single time I'm about to step out. So there is still, I still chip breaks every time I'm about to go on stage every single time. You have gotten to perform on some pretty amazing stages. Yeah.

You have had cosines from Lauren Hill, Eric Baidu, some of the just like big, awesome greats of music. You perform with gnauz. Yeah. What are some of the things that you've learned being around these legends that you have internalized as part of your artistic practice? Man, I think boundaries. This is the part where I ask you about who are you dating? No, I'm just totally doing. No, I think boundaries, even like reserving your voice sometimes, choosing how to answer certain things and like choosing what you give your attention to.

Like, Miss Lauren Hill has like the signal, oh, she's always late or whatever. It's like I agree that punctuality is like, you know, like a nice trait to have. But I do admire that she refuses to go until she's ready. She's on her time. She's on her time. I admire that she can sit there and be like, now we haven't gotten this thing right or when we're going to change this again, we're going to change it again, we're going to change again. I haven't been able to witness it, I think, but I have been able to see her on stage.

And she even the way she acts with people around her, it's like, she's very kind. And then she closes it. Yeah. And she leaps, you know what I mean? It's like, it's just like very boundary-wise. Even Nas, I was having a conversation with Nas and somebody came up to take a picture and he was just like, very respectful. You know what I mean?

But it was like, that right now. I'm like, this feels very appropriate actually given some of the messages on these records, you know, the feeling sort of like detaching, being free, letting go of digital life. Someone like Lauren Hill, creativity has always been on her time and aren't we all the benefit of it? It's like she has given us very little work. Yeah. And she has given us only.

excellent work. And every time it's like, it's going to come when it's going to come. Absolutely. It's the exact opposite of on demand right now, 15 seconds. Right. And too, like, I look at somebody like Nas who's still putting out music because he loves it. You know what I mean? He doesn't care about it. I'm like, you've been making music for all these years and you still have something to talk about at a high level and talking about the stuff that applies to you now in this point in your life instead of what I think some people kind of get a little performative at the end as well all of that stuff is very like interesting um I also think like the cosons from people like that have given me a little bit of like reassurance and like confirmation that like I'm doing the right work

and that there's a path for me that's been really cool that's amazing you said to billboard recently that it's grind time detour often talks about the emotional costs of ambition. Yeah, yeah, yeah. How do you process and manage that tension? It talks about that because, again, a lesson that I think I'm trying to figure out in real time. I think when you're at the beginning of your career,

you feel like you haven't earned saying no. I think oftentimes in my eagerness to want to do all of the things, maybe there's a little bit of like people pleasing maybe in there somewhere that wants to make sure that everybody, you know, gets what they need and like I do everything.

that, you know, check it off the list, but I oftentimes feel like it spreads me out very thin. And like, even when I say like, okay, no more before this, you know, an opportunity will come in and I'll be like, yeah, like, I'll go do that and like, yeah, I'll go do this or whatever. And I think I'm in a season of like discernment and like learning when it's like okay to say no and what type of things that I should be saying no to even if I really want to do them. but allowing myself to like be guilt-free if I don't do these things and I think reminding myself that nobody can hold like an opportunity over my head like if it's meant to happen that it'll happen and if like somebody gets mad that I didn't do that one thing it's just like it just is what it is you know well earlier you talked about being clever by showing not telling you just gave me the greatest compliment ever because you showed up today so thank you for saying yes to this I really appreciate it I was happy to be invited on yeah and uh I'm really excited to see the expression of freedom. It's something I think many of us need right now. Absolutely. Thank you for being on the show.

Thank you so much. Really appreciate us tomorrow. Thank you. Switched on Pop is produced by Rana Cruz, edited by Lisa Soap, engineered by Brand McFarlane, illustrations by Iris Gottlie, video by Nick Rips. Additional production by Sahrakeh. Our theme song is by Jossi Adams and Zach Tenario of Arc Iris. Remember of the Vox Media podcast network and a production of Vulture.

It's part of New York Magazine. You can subscribe at NYUmag.com slash pod. You can find more episodes at Switched on. pop.com where you can find merch and access to our newsletter. We're going to be back again on Tuesday and until then. Thanks for listening.