Switched on Pop - Same Here

Episode Date: December 2, 2015

Two unlikely anthems of individuality are rocketing up the charts: Selena Gomez’s “Same Old Love” and Alessia Cara’s “Here.” One is from an established star, the other from a total unknown, but both use similar musical techniques to make their voices heard against the madding crowd. Tune in to hear how the radio dial is richer for the presence of such non-conformist and anti-social jams. Featuring: Lady Gaga – Just Dance Selena Gomez – Same Old Love Alessia Cara – Here Michael Jackson – Billie Jean Kesha – Tik Tok Katy Perry – Last Friday Night (T.G.I.F.) George Bizet – Carmen Suite No. 2. Habanera Purcell – Dido’s Lament L’Arpeggiata – Amor  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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App at eater app.com. It's free for iOS users. Welcome to Switchdown Pop. I'm songwriter Charlie Harding. And I'm musicologist Nate Sloan. Today on the show, two hot songs that break the norm. Nate's very good to be here in person with you today. Great to see you, Charlie. I'm sorry that you're a little under the weather. It's okay. I just had too much fun over Thanksgiving. Okay. I want to start by asking you a question. Hit me. Have you ever been in a situation in your life where you were supposed to do something, but you had a very different idea and chose to take a different path. That's a great question. Or are you just a square?

Am I just a sheep? When have you broken from the norm and jumped out and done your own thing? You know, after my first year of college, I took a leave of absence and I went to New Zealand and worked at an ashram. Really? Yeah. What were you doing? I just needed to get away and I ended up in New Zealand and I was traveling and I found

an ashram where I could work on the you know on their farm in exchange for board and and and yoga lessons we woke up every morning at 5 a.m. and did an hour of meditation and then so instead of taking econ 101 you decided to piece out and go to an ashram yeah it was very instructional you know they gave me um this this like carmic task my my yogic duty uh which was personally selected for me was I couldn't read at all. I had this edition of War and Peace that my dad gave me in rice paper that was really tiny, and I was just reading that. And they said, okay, you can't read.

Oh. And this was really, and this really sent me for a loop because I did not know what to do with myself with my thoughts. Yeah. So I would kind of walk into the field. I spent a lot of time with the cows, sort of looking into a cow's eyes. You know, it's a very profound experience. What did you take away from this experience? I suppose that I was leaving under the impression that the more you knew, the more knowledge you accrued, the more words you read, the better a person you became.

After being given this task of not reading, it made me think about really, like, what are the values that make a good person? And I had to begin revising those. I think, I started to think, well, you know, compassion and self-awareness. And there are plenty of very well-read people who are perfectly evil. Right. And that was something I thought about. And so yeah, it was a moment when I did not do what was expected. And I feel like it really paid off, I guess.

So it was a hit. Yeah, it was a hit. It was a number one hit. So if you don't mind, maybe I can appropriate your story and use that as a perfect transition into two hit songs, which I think are doing just the same. Ooh, you're welcome. So I often feel too often when I'm listening to pop. music, I'm getting the same message over and over. It's that just dance kind of idea, you know?

And I feel like just as you had to break out of the expectations of school, there are some great songs right now which are breaking out of the expectations of the typical pop song format and that which is expected of a pop singer. So today I thought we could look at two different songs which break the norms of music and lyrics and forge their own path and find their own kind of success. So two pop songs that go to New Zealand to work on an ashram. Exactly. Cool.

So I've prepared a song, and I think you've prepared one as well. I have. Charlie, why don't you kick it off? So I've got Selena Gomez's same old love. For those of you who don't know who Selena Gomez is, do you familiar? Vagely. Okay. So actually...

I saw Spring Breakers. I haven't seen that. Spring break. Quick recap. She was a Disney star. She was a child actor. She actually got her start acting in the TV show Barney. Wow.

And more recently has been known for being a major pop icon both on the screen and in our earbuds. Has also been known to have dated Justin Bieber and has been, and there's been an ongoing media conversation about their love. But I don't want to talk about their love. I don't want to talk about this isn't e-news. So I thought instead we could actually talk about the music. behind same old love. Right on.

Let's listen to Same Old Love. Most obviously, same old love is a minor blues track where she declares that her current and past relationships are over. Take away your things and go. You can't take back what you said. It all before at least a million times.

She no longer wants that same old love. Right. Pretty obvious. Okay, we know this. She declares it pretty obviously. Right. It's the name. of the song. But there's so much going on here. For me, same old love is like a musical palindrome

with these repeating elements that start and repeat and play backwards and layer on top of each other in such a way that these little simple elements actually tell us a much bigger story about how Selena Gomez really feels. Madam, I'm Adam. That's a palindrome. Yes. Cool. Okay, tell me more. Race car. That's all I got. That's all I got. Okay. So there are three things about the song that you might not have noticed. You might have thought, hey, this is a really simple, obvious song, but there is much more to it. So the first two happen right off the bat. They're a little more subtle, but I think they're really important to Slinda Gomez's psyche.

Right. First, we have this. The rhythm of the track is primarily carried by the snap. You're speeding up there a little bit. Oh, wow. Okay, Mr. Mention him. And for me, that's sort of like time-moving. along, right? Just like clapping, just snapping along. For me, it's every past person that passes

through her life. And under that snap, there is this really cool sample of a vinyl record. Every time you hear that snap, there's this little... So immediately, she's putting us in the past. She's using the nostalgia of the vinyl record, right? The nostalgia created by the sound of the vinyl record to put us in the past about how she's feeling about these past relationships. Very cool. Okay. That's just right at the beginning. All right.

Selina. When I first heard the song, though, I was kind of, I don't know, put off by the fact that it didn't do a lot. And that's because I wasn't listening closely enough. The main thing that this song has got going for it is its baseline. Right. And it sets up this back and forth movement. It keeps repeating the same phrase up and then down, up and then down. And for me, that baseline is the same old love.

It is the musical representation of same old love. What do you think? I find that very persuasive, Charlie. So you're saying, like, the baseline is this, the monotony and the repetition of her love life up till now. So I thought the song sounded monotonous and repetitive. But I think this baseline is telling us about the very nature of that relationship. Oh, okay. So now we're setting up this distinction between the expected and then the breaking out.

Yes, exactly. Okay, and she does this in the coolest way. Yeah. So the baseline has a subtle variation. I called it a minor blues because the baseline starts in B minor and then it moves up to E minor. It's the most common move you see in blues music. So we're also, it's telling us, hey, she's just kind of sad. So in the verse, we hear the first half of this phrase.

And then, later on in the verse, this sort of more heightened moment, it switches and goes to this higher version of the exact same thing. Right. Okay. For me, there's this sort of set up tension of the sort of lower register version of the baseline, the higher register version of the baseline. And this baseline is this constantly descending thing, but it's sort of got these two versions. And it sets up this little bit of tension. when she moves to the chorus, the A baseline and the B baseline

come closer together. They fall right next to each other. So where in the verse there had been this sort of like slog of this repeating baseline and then it takes a subtle variation but it's kind of the same thing, kind of like her past relationships.

In the chorus, it intensifies, it speeds up. These baselines actually come in right next to each other. So instead of having them pull apart, over these long verses, we hear them right back to back in the chorus. Gotcha.

So what does that symbolize? At that moment, her voice soars up to the highest register right on the home note, on B, and she just screams, she says, I'm so sick of that same old love. It's the highest register of her voice. She's on the home note of the key, and she's declaring, you know, speaking over this baseline, which is trying to assert itself in her life over her, over her music. She's singing faster than the baseline. She's singing over it in the highest register.

And for me, that's her overcoming and declaring her true feelings. Right afterwards, she does something that young women who have starred in the show Barney are not supposed to do. What's that? She says a curse word. Oh, she does say a curse word. That really struck me. She has a little breaking point. It definitely feels like in this chorus, her frustration is palpable.

Yeah. So I'm so sick of the same old love, this stuff. It just tears me up. And she breaks. And so where we've had this repetitive, redundant baseline, all of a sudden, it is overcome by her powerful vocal. And she just says, you know what? Forget about it. I've had enough.

I'm going to do it my own way. And there's a moment in the music where everything breaks. And I think her inner dialogue truly comes out. It's in the bridge. Classic bridge behavior. Kind of the baseline falls out, and there are these distorted voices, which sound like a male voice. I actually think that it's her voice pitched way down. It feels like this sort of interior moment of figuring it all out, and then we get a final chorus.

And that final chorus is the loudest moment of her declaring. I'm so sick of the same old love. She's clearly overcounted these past relationships. right on selina remember what we said earlier these songs are sort of breaking from your expected pop song structure correct right we actually don't really have so much of a verse chorus verse chorus a b part because we just have the same baseline repeating over and over again right like this shouldn't be a hit single it's that same baseline i told you i was at first kind of like uh i don't know i have now listened to the song at least a dozen times and i can't get it out of my head it's a real hit yeah it's a good one and i guess

I like your interpretation in that exactly what makes it work is the contrast of this monotonous baseline. Right. And these explosive melodies and lyrics. Very cool. All right. All right, Selena. We see you. I appreciate her.

Stepping out. Standing out. Doing her own thing. Right? Yeah. This is no, I love you. You love me.

We're a happy family. Who knew that this was going to come back all the way to the beginning of her career? Maria, you have a podcast now and you need to start acting like it. What's the first step as a podcaster? Well, you have to ask lots of questions. I'm Maria Sharpova and I'm hosting a new podcast called Pretty Tough. Every week, I'm sitting down with trailblazing women at the top of their game to discuss ambition, work ethic, and the ups and downs that come on the path to achieving greatness. I have a few pretty tough questions for you.

Okay. Ready? Ready. Do not sugarcoat something for me. No. No. No. We'll dive into their stories and get valuable insights from top executives, actors, entrepreneurs, and other individuals who have inspired me so much in my own journey.

Pretty tough is your front row seat to the women who have demonstrated the power in being unapologetic in their pursuits. I hope you'll join us. New episodes drop Wednesdays on YouTube or in your favorite podcast app. Immigration may be Donald Trump's signature issue. President Trump is now targeting predominantly Democratic cities for ice raids and Dozens of protesters clashing with immigration and customs enforcement agents in Minneapolis Tuesday. We will begin the process of returning millions and millions of criminal aliens back to the places from which they came. But what we want to do in this space is talk about America and politics beyond the current president. So what do most Americans think about deportation and border security, period?

I think that Americans are definitely against the kind of violent displays that we've seen in the street from ICE. when it comes to the question of deportation, the answer is more complicated. My sense is that people want border at the border. They don't like the idea of having no idea who's coming into the United States at any given time. The view on immigration from the bottom up instead of the top down. That's this week on America Actually. Every Saturday in your audio and video feeds. You know, the activity of the base that you're describing in same old love really

reminds me of a certain classical technique. What's that? It's called the ground base. What is the ground base? Well, we've seen a variation of it on this show already when we were talking about the weekend. Right. And the lament and this repetitive descending baseline. Yeah.

But ground base is maybe a more general version of that. A repeating baseline of any kind. Okay. So the lament is like that's specifically the descending one. Right. But, you know, you can have any repeating bass line. bass line would be called a ground bass. Okay.

And classical composers would use this in a similar way to set up this tension between the repetition of the bass and then the variation of the melody and harmony that's going on on top of that. Right.

And oftentimes it's used in a similar way to sort of represent someone fighting against the inevitability. But think pulling them down. Yeah, exactly. This sort of, you know, like, there's a beautiful

tension between a voice trying to express themselves and then this inevitable teleological baseline continually grounding them, pulling them back. Probably the most classic example of this is Dido's Lament from a Henry Purcell opera. The character Dido sings, Forget My Fate. And she sings it over and over again with all these different melodic very, very, But the baseline remains unchanged, and it's this really compelling moment. She's sort of asserting herself over this expected baseline. I like how she's twisting her melodies and doing them in different ways to really get her message across.

Totally. Flash forward a few centuries. You can find another articulation of this in an equally famous aria. Yeah. The Havanaera from George Bazaise. Carmen. Oh, right. The quality of the lyric here is different, but I think the principle is the same. Okay.

We have this repeating baseline. Yeah. That sort of creates this level of stasis and expectation. Yeah. And then we have a singer on top of this singing lyrics like, Love is a rebellious bird that none can tame, and it is well in vain that one calls it if it suits him to refuse nothing to be done, threat, or prayer. Her assertion of agency is like even more piquant because of this repeating baseline that

really shows how much is at stake for her. I love that line. If one calls it if it suits him to refuse, right? It's like, I'm rebelling against this sense of love. It's actually the same lyric. It's Selena, man. From Dido to Carmen to Selena. Who do?

It's all circular, man. Time is a flat circle. Something that's really fun about the ground bass is that you can, as you were talking about the Dido piece, where she sings the same words over and over with different melodies. Sure. What you hear in the Selena Gomez track is this baseline going over and over. We hear the same thing on and on,

yet she's able to create unique melodies and variations on top of that that if you want, you can actually lay her on top. top of each other. They sound really cool because they all work together because they have the same baseline. Take away your things and go. I don't believe. If you're left in peace, I'm left.

Money. Yeah. It's a nice little moment. Yeah. You know, there's something really compelling about these ground bass lines. And it is, it is a nice moment of sort of continuity through the history of Western music that you can

take one of these classical ground bases. Right. Throw a beat on top of it and you're halfway to a pop hit right there. Right. Totally. I think Michael Jackson and Daft Punk are particularly good at both of the, at taking a single baseline and giving it to us over and over and over one more time, one more time, one more time. And you don't want to stop hearing it because it constantly has a new context and it gets better

and better as you hear it. My song also takes advantage of this technique. Good transition. Thank you. Here by Alessia Kara, a song I first heard when I gave my undergraduate students an assignment to send me a song that they represented them. Basically, I asked them to analyze a song they love with the same sort of rigor and depth that they would bring to one of the classical pieces we were studying.

And so it was amazing because I got like 70 songs that represent the tastes of the American college student. You switched on popular kids. Yeah, exactly. Switched on popular students, I should say. And one of my students, Juliet, sent me this song here, which really stood out from all the songs that I was being sent. Charlie, should we just, should we give it a listen? Absolutely. Yeah.

I guess for now you've got to listen now. I'm sorry if I seem uninscheon. When you first sent me this track, I actually think I had a really similar reaction. I was like, eh, baseline, does the same thing over and over again. I get it. And then I listened again, and my heart opened up. Really, I would rather be at home all by myself, not in this room with people who don't even care about my well-being. I don't dance.

Don't ask. I don't need a boyfriend. So you can't. It's really something. It's like the anti-social anthem. Right. And it's a remarkable counterpoint to the descriptions of parties that we usually get in pop songs. Yes.

Take, for instance, Kesha's TikTok. Or like Katie Perry's TGIF. Yeah, exactly. Just these sort of this. Total Bacchanal. Yeah, Saturnalia, just these celebrations of excess. and wastedness and depravity. Yeah, right.

Right. This is from the complete opposite perspective. This song really resonated with me for that reason. Oh, man, me too. And I mean, with so many people who just... How many times have you gone to a party and be like, oh, I just don't fit in here, like, people over there? Like, I would say 92% of the parties I go to. Yeah, about the same.

That is how I feel, yeah. Yeah. So in giving the antisocial pessimists. voice here. Alessia Kara is doing some good work and similar to Salina she has this really powerful tension

between a repeating ground bass and then these endless variations in terms of melody in terms of instrumentation in terms of rhythm and you know something I was thinking like you were talking about

sort of the inner voices in this Selena Gomez song. I think there's a lot of that in the Alessio-Cara track as well. Yeah. There's this moment where she says, but honestly, I'd rather be somewhere with my people. We can kick it and just listen to some music with the message. But honestly, I'd rather be somewhere with my people.

We can kick it and just listen to some music with the message. And then this other voice that's also her, but that sort of comes in from another side of your headphones. Yeah. It says like we usually do. And you can sort of hear her inner dialogue, right? All the voices in her head sort of expressing how she really feels. Yeah, I love this listen to music with a message

because I think both of these songs really do stand strong and having a very particular message that they're trying to get across. This is kind of rare on the radio. Yeah, exactly. And these songs have a little bit of an edge to them for that because Alessiakara is sort of creating the sound of the party in this track. Yes. Right? It's like there's a lot going on.

It's kind of chaotic. We have all these different instruments that don't necessarily fit together. I mean, I count a trombone. It's this sort of tinkling classical piano, this heavy guitar. and then these multiple voices of hers. Yeah. I mean, it's a really complex set of texture. Yeah, definitely.

I actually, those voices I thought were particularly powerful. I have this theory that those voices are actually the other voices at the party. Right? The song actually starts out with a sort of muted male voice in the background, and it's kind of like someone speaking to her. I guess from now you've got the last man. And she's just checked out. I'm sorry if I seem uninterested.

And she's not listening to them because, in fact, the song starts in the middle of a measure. Right. Right. And she says, I'm sorry if I seem uninterested. I actually don't think she's even saying that to him. I think she's saying that in her own head. Yeah. Oh, man.

This is, when you said that we enter in the middle of a bar. Yeah. That's so interesting. You know, it reminds me of the sadage about playwriting. that you're supposed to enter late and leave early. What is that? Oh. Like, we're in this song, we're sort of plunged into the middle of this party.

Yeah. And we don't. And it takes us, it's a little disorienting when you first hear this. You're like, what's going on? What's happening? Where am I? There's so many sounds. These are like kind of logoreic just a stream of lyrics.

Right. Like, virtuastic. Right. That you have to kind of keep up with. Right. And then it doesn't really end on any. there's no really there's no sense of change or like she she she wants to get out of there but you don't know if she does I'm standing by the TV with my beanie low you I'll be over here

oh oh yeah I mean we just have this image this is one of my favorite lyrics of all time this image of her by the TV with her beanie low and it's just like a little snapshot you know of this lone voice. We've all been the wallflower in the corner and know how that feels. Yes. Feeling internal and to ourselves. Yes. I ask myself, what am I doing here? And I can't wait to break up out of here. Oh, oh, oh. There's some other parallels with the Selena Gomez track as well. We don't really have a strong chorus. Okay. We just have here. Right. Oh, oh, oh, oh, here. When I first heard the song, I was like, wait, did the chorus just happen? The verse and the chorus really blend into each other.

Yeah. And then also there's a what we might call a quasi bridge. Right. Where the bass drops out. Yep. And we expand on this image hours later congregating next to the refrigerator. Some girls talking about her haters. She ain't got none.

Oh, so she actually moved us forward in time at the party by dropping the baseline out. It's almost like we've had a montage. Yeah, exactly. There's this other moment where I feel like we can really tell that she's in her head is that every time that she drops out of the chorus and back into the verse, she actually talks over herself. Right, so it's clearly she has re-recorded. She hasn't sung her vocal just once, right?

She sings the chorus, and then in the studio, she sings the verse, but the verse actually starts on the chorus, and it's kind of like how we can have multiple dialogues running on in our head at the same time. Totally, yeah. at the start of this episode Charlie you said we're going to see if these two songs both represent this idea of breaking away from the norms right

have they gone to their ashram yeah I think they have I think they've gone to the I didn't tell you that the ashram was at on the top of a mountain okay in this really rural part of New Zealand that can only be accessed by one road I think they have summited that mountain top it's very cool you know in the

Celessia Kara track there's the the repetitive noise and chaos of the party right and her vocals her incredibly lucid and virtuastic vocals kind of dancing on top

of this in endless variation this this sense of rhythmic swing in her voice I mean these are not this is not typical pop song behavior, right? No, no. You talked about the lyrical paradigm of just dance. Right. This is so much more

cerebral. Totally. And, uh, an intellectual. Yeah. And the song should not be number 10 on the pop charts. No. And yet there it is. That's awesome. Right behind Taylor Swift's Wildest Dreams. Music with a message. Yeah. So have they fulfilled their carmic quest? I think they have. It's important to highlight these songs in a pop landscape where young women might might not have a plurality of role models to choose from. Hell yeah. To have these singers really coming into their own. Yeah.

Having all this agency and really setting up this contrast between manifesting your individuality and going with what's expected of you, that's really rad. It's super rad. It's a good lesson for the pop industry as well, I think. Yeah. Maybe there's a larger car. quest that the billboard charts need to fulfill we need more voices like this breaking through making their own way making really creative and challenging but really catchy music right on word thanks to

juliet from my introduction to the history of western music course for tuning us on to alessia karah thank you good track and thank you to the anahat yoga retreat and takaka new zealand and Swami Mukta Dharma and Swami Ahmed Baba. Further, Karmid quests. Yes, you really change my life. And if you're listening to this for some reason, I appreciate it. Join us again in two weeks because the holidays have started. The music is in our ears.

It's everywhere. And I think we've learned from earlier episodes, the best way to cure an earworm is to just go right into it and listen to those tracks. Amen. So we'll have a hot holiday song for you two weeks. Until then. Thanks for listening. Attention Spotify.

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