Switched on Pop - Should You Care About Ed Sheeran and Justin Bieber?

Episode Date: May 28, 2019

A pop star collaboration is a foolproof way to grab the attention of two audiences at once. But do more collaborators actually make a better song? Ed Sheeran and Justin Bieber put this question to the test in their new song "I Don't Care." The track takes us inside the head of an antisocial party hopper, who'd rather be back home with his lover. Nate and Charlie investigate how the songwriters works that message into their music and speak with Ross Golan about Ed Sheeran's songwriting brilliance. Songs Discussed • Ed Sheeran and Justin Bieber - I Don't Care • Ed Sheeran – Shape of You • Justin Bieber – Love Yourself • Kygo ft. Ella Henderson – Here For You • Maroon 5 – Don’t Wanna Know Check out And The Writer Is… With Ross Golan: https://www.andthewriteris.com/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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It's free for iOS users. Welcome to Switchdown Pop. I'm songwriter Charlie Harding. And I'm musicologist Nate Sloan. Nate, so two of the biggest contemporary stars have collaborated to make one of the biggest meta songs of all time. Have you heard about this? I believe you're referring to Ed Shearin and Justin Beaver.

That's correct. I don't know the name of their song. I don't care. You don't care? That's the name of their song. Oh, okay. Who's on First situation? I totally blanked.

They came out with this hit that is already just blowing up, and many people have asked us to investigate. And so I wanted to play you a clip, and you've never heard it, right? No, this is my inaugural listen. Okay. So I want your hot take, quick listen. It's going to be fun. Hit me. All the bad things disappear

Are you making me feel Maybe I am somebody With the bad become love by Okay, so the first thing that grabbed me Is the very beginning of the song Yeah, so let's just play the intro real quick Okay, great I'm at a party I don't want to be at

And I don't ever wear a suit and tie eye Wondering if I can sneak out the back Nobody's even looking me in my eyes Can you take my eyes? Okay, so I like this intro because his voice doesn't enter exactly where you think it is. Like you think there's going to be one more repetition of that opening vamp before the vocal comes in.

So it kind of surprised me and I like that. And there's a rhythmic urgency here there because it's so intensely syncopated. Bump, bump, bump, bump, bump. It's like, whoa, it's very unsettled. And it got my heart racing. Yeah. And so when this song started, I was like, yeah, I'm on board. And then as it went on, I was progressively like, oh, oh, that's what you're going to do.

Oh, you're going there? Oh, that's the decision. So it kind of like every successive section kind of I found less enthusing, to be honest. Yeah, I was feeling that a little bit. Do you want to maybe highlight some of the things that were maybe not exciting you? Yeah, okay. Let's go straight to the chorus for a second. Yeah.

I feel maybe I am somebody. I feel a certain sense of like anti-climacticism or something in the sense that the chorus hits and nothing really changes. I'm not some kind of pop purist that thinks the chorus always needs to differentiate itself musically. But lyrically, the message is here is like one of catharsis or transcendence. Like in the verse, it's like, oh, I hate, here's all the things I hate. But then, like, when I'm with my baby, I don't care. Yeah. So I do expect some kind of, like, musical reinforcement of that message when it comes to the chorus.

I get a sense of that safety from the harmony. And here we are sort of berating a point, which is that this song is a 16, four, five chord progression. It's the same thing that we talked about in Taylor Swift's me with Brennan Uri. Me! Exclamation point. All caps. Yes.

Please continue. And it's the thing we talked about in another Justin Bieber song with DJ Khalid. I'm the one. Six, four, five. Yeah. And it's the most recreated chord progression in history. And so in a certain way like that gives you a little bit of the safety I think that you get in the emotional relationship that's going on here. Sometimes when you do these like meta mashup songs, I guess I come in maybe a little bit more skeptical.

Okay. Such big superheroes of pop music. And I just have very high. high expectations. And there were some things here I was like, oh yeah, it feels like some safe choices. The piano line is actually the same rhythm as Ed Shearin's shape of view.

Check this out. Take me through that. There it is. Dot, dot, dot, dot, dot, dot, dot, dot. That very, yeah, that, that demo rhythm. Yeah. Trisio rhythm that has been like this one of the defining sounds of the 2010s.

Yeah. So I was like, okay, I feel like I've heard this rhythm and an insurance song, his last, his biggest hit. and I've heard this chord progression a lot. I'm like, I don't know how excited I am about this. But I think my ear was actually maybe sort of tuned into the wrong things. Okay. So I want to go back to the very first point that you made.

Well, actually, before you do, I also, that makes me think, too, how, like, lyrically the song is also very much a successor to shape of you. Oh, interesting. Well, like, play the beginning of this one again. I don't care. I'm at a party. I don't want to be at.

And I don't ever wear a suit and tie eye. Wondering if I can sneak out the back. Nobody's even looking at me. So I feel like there's a similar sentiment maybe in the idea of in shape of view, like the club is in a great place to find a lover. So the bar is where I go. As to be like, I'm not really uncomfortable at this party. There's the something, you know, the anti-social social club aspect of it seems very present here. I think that the person that did that story best was Alessi Akara.

Yes. We did a whole episode on her song. Here. That is this sort of internal. You get the sense of how uncomfortable she is at the party that she's attending. And you can almost feel like you're inside her head and the sort of anxiety that's going on and the discomfort. Well, it's also very real to hear that from at the time she recorded that. I think she was in her teens.

Sure. You know, and she probably, and it felt very real and true to life. I'm like, I'm not, you know, I'm sure Ed Shearin does get awkward at parties. Everyone gets awkward at parties. I'm not mustering a ton of sympathy. Okay, that said This is the subject. I'm uncomfortable at a party.

I actually think the music serves that message really beautifully. Because as you pointed out, we have this really syncopated rhythm that from the very beginning it's actually hard to get a sense of the downbeat. I want to count four,

but you're kind of like feeling threes and fours. You don't actually have a sense of like comfort being at home. Instead, you are sort of away lost in rhythmic space. And his lyric is sort of dancing around this, trying to find a sense of where does it fit in the rhythm. And so I think this sense of anxiety, not feeling like you're fitting in, is really perfectly mirrored in the rhythmic choices that they're making in this song, which I think is even further emphasized by the timbreal choices. You have this deep bass, sort of like a club bass happening. Okay. And this

sort of out of tune honky tonk piano, this thing that almost doesn't fit in with that sound. Hmm. And I think that that it succeeds in that way. I think that there's just a really nice pairing. I find that a compelling, if perhaps generous interpretation. And, uh, I do see what you're saying. There's like this almost, this music almost serves what you might call like a diagetic function. as in is this actually representing the party that's happening in the background here that he doesn't want to be at? That's exactly right. So that's cool. And yet, I maintain my earlier criticism because the chorus should be a place of refuge from that verse,

from the lyrical and musical quality of the verse, right? Let's go to the final chorus. Okay. So what you're telling me is that Justin Bieber sweet falsetto is not soothing you as the relationship ought to in the narrative of this piece? No, I do. I do think, you're right. This final chorus does provide a certain sense of release in catharsis and certain in the form of like more long tones, more vocal interjections, but there's no change. And that's, and you know, that's, I mean, I don't know why. I feel like I'm coming hard at Ed Shearing today, but that's like kind of always my beef with him. Like his songs never have any changes in them. They just like kind of float along, which is why they are the perfect soundtrack to like anything you're doing and probably a part of the reason they're so successful. I wonder if that has to do with the fact that he is so famous for creating looped live music, right? That his thing is to get up on stage with just an acoustic guitar and a loop pedal and then bang on that acoustic guitar to create a kick drum, hit a thing with

the on the strings, make a snare drum, play a bunch of bass lines, guitar lines, lead lines, drop them in and out. And if you're going to do that style of music with loops repeating themselves, the real trick is how do you maintain and create excitement where the sort of harmonic progression stays the same. You make a great point, Charles, and that is incredibly exciting to watch live and easily my favorite iteration of Ed. So, you know, I'm casting back now to when we talked about Ed Shearron with Ross Golan, and I do want to spend more time with this song and not just give you my, like, in the moment response. Because one thing that Ross, I think, impressed upon me was that sometimes when you're listening to Ed Sheareran, you're like, oh, this is so obvious and, like,

simple and straightforward, that's actually exactly the genius of it, is that it sounds so natural and conversational and easy that part of you is like, oh, come on, did you even try? But like, yes, he did really hard in order to make it sound all of those things. That was the other thing I wanted to point out, which is that I know when you listen to the song again, you're like, oh, it's catchy. Because man can he write, not just a hook, hooks on hooks, on hooks, each section bringing you into the next. Yeah. And so when this comes out,

you and I are going to be both be taking, I think, a hard-earned vacation. And I think it would serve all of us, though, to go and listen back to our conversation with Ross Golan,

one of, you know, the top songwriters in L.A. He has a great podcast, and the writer is where he talks to other songwriters. So we spoke with Ross a little while back about really what is the genius

of Ed Sheeran. I think we both entered that conversation skeptically, Maybe we're still somewhat skeptical here I'm hearing, but maybe we'll be reminded by a really great deep dive into Edsurance Uvra. I can see us becoming Ed Heads someday or whatever they're called Shirees. I don't know. But I can see it. It's only a matter of time.

I hope that you're going to respond to all the fan mail and hate mail that comes in from that. I'm really happy to be joined by Ross Golan, who is a hit songwriter, who's written with folks like Maroon 5, just. and Bieber, Selena Gomez, Ariana Grande. Welcome to the show. Hello. Wow. I also feel like we should plug, you've got a great podcast called And the Writer is, where every week you sit down with an acclaimed and venerable songwriter to intimately discuss what happens behind closed doors in the music industry. That's right. Yeah. So we're so excited to have you in the room with us because, first of all, you just have incredible experience with so many songwriters. And if you look at a lot of the songs that we've covered on the show, either you or something.

someone you've interviewed on your show has probably contributed to that song. So you've got a lot of insight into what's going on behind the process. And we reached out with a list of different songs that we wanted to potentially discuss. And one of the songs that you pointed out was Ed Sheeran's Shape of View. It's been one of the most requested songs that our listeners have asked for, and we've actually been really hesitant to look at it for a certain reason. So what I wanted to do was to break down Shape of View. and in the second half

spend time talking about your podcast and the writer is. Sure. Yeah, absolutely. Right on. It might be ridiculous, but background on Ed Sheeran. So Nate and I

actually have kind of intentionally ignored Ed Sheeran and I had to look up Ed Sheeran and figure out what is going on with him. Interesting. Why? Nate, what are you think? I think the probably simplest way to say it

is that we haven't really been very excited by a lot of the music we've heard from him. So whenever we've gone to do a podcast, he's never been at the top of our list because we just didn't have that sort of visceral excitement. He's a really interesting person. I've only met him a few times,

but the first time I met him was backstage at a concert in New York, and I had just gotten off of a plane, and it was probably, I don't know, midnight. And I'm there with, I fly in with a guy named Amar Malik, who you'll see his songwriting credits all over the place. And we were meeting up backstage

at, I can't even remember whose show it was, but we were meeting up with Benny Blanco, who has just recently executive produced this Ed Shearren record. And backstage was Jay Cole and Scrillix. And we're all in a circle drinking whiskey and doing shots of Jameson. And Ed Sheeran starts freestyle. The minute Ed starts freestyling is the minute you realize who Ed really is. And as an artist, I've worked with a ton of people. I don't know that many people who spit out that volume of interesting lyrics so quickly.

I mean, he's truly a savant. And the more you get into it and the more you actually go and experience him live or you experience him in person, that's when you actually understand Ed Shearren. First of all, say, wow, what an image of all those songwriters and musicians hanging out together. I'm the lowest on the wrong in that room. You know, it's just like jaw-dropping talent. They needed you to make a mignon. So that's why you were there.

Exactly. I hear what you're saying. In a way, I feel like I like everything about Ed Shearin. I like his live shows are simply jaw-dropping. I haven't been there in person, but I've watched them online. In interviews, he's like, effortlessly charming and hysterically funny. And he seems really smart.

I feel like I like everything about him except his music. So I'm actually glad to have this opportunity to go deeper into that terrain with both of you and see, see, you know, how we feel on the other end. Yeah, I think part of what we're looking for is to help convert, not so much just convert skeptics, but to say that I think on first listen, I often just haven't paid attention. Like the first listen, like, oh, didn't catch me. I'll go find another song for this week. And I actually did finally go up and look at sort of just at Shearans Wikipedia page.

I was like, wait a minute. Okay, I know he's a major pop star. But the list of things about his background is insane. From being discovered by Jamie Fox in a small LA club to writing for Taylor Swift, touring with her, winning multiple Grammys, getting huge support by Elton John. And I think I read that for his last, not the most recent album, but the album before, he wrote 140 songs in order to pair it down to. That sounds right.

Yeah. So I honestly, just sort of looking at that, and then looking at some of his credits, he's written for Justin Bieber. The song we're going to talk about was originally supposedly written for Rihanna. He's now acting on Game of Thrones. Like, the size of his stardom kind of really, I was almost starstruck just reading the Wikipedia. And I thought, you know, one of the things that maybe we're guilty of is being too stuck in our taste. And so what I wanted to do was take a second to listen to just a little bit of,

shape of you, uh, together and then break down what's going on. Let's do it. Right on. The club isn't the best place to find the lovers of the bar is where I go. Me and my friends sat at the table doing shots, stripping fast, and then we talk slow. And come over and start up a conversation with just me and trust me, I'll give it a chance. Now, take my hands. Stop, I found the man on the jukebox, and then we start to dance. And I'm singing like, girl, you know, I want your love.

handmade for somebody like me I'm coming now follow my lead I may be crazy don't mind me say boy let's not talk too much grab on my waist and put that body on me I'm coming now follow my lead come coming now follow my lead

I'm in love with the shape of you we're push and pull like a magnatee although my heart is falling too I'm in love with your body last night you were in my room So one of my bedsheet smelled like you. Every day discovering something brand new. I'm in love with your body.

So one of my favorite books in the world is this book by Carl Wilson called Let's Talk About Love. You read this one? No. It's a critique of Celine Dion's 1999 album, Let's Talk About Love. The concede of the book is basically that it's not about Celine Dion. It's actually about taste. And he argues that so often critics use taste as a way to reinforce class structures around what is good and what is not good. And he basically says that there's a major chasm between the perspective of critics on Celine Dion's music and her mass appeal.

So I think in some ways Nate and I might be guilty of, as I was saying, sort of falling into traps of our own tastes and upon first listen just being like, that song's not for me. So what I want to do together is break down what is working about this song? So I just want to hear from your perspective. What is so, what captures you when you listen to this tune? Well, this is fascinating for a couple of reasons. One is Benny, the guy who executive produced the album, was our first guest on and the writer is.

It's a great interview. And we were talking about this song and the release of this song. And Ed knew through the process, he's involved, right now he's planning out the next album. While we're analyzing this, Oh, yeah. I mean, the first four albums he essentially had planned.

Oh, my God. You know? So here we are working on this new album. And to him, he's the one who said, let's go and release two singles on the same day. Releases this and Castle on the Hill. Right. He says this and the label's like, no. And he says, just trust me.

He's the one who has his finger on the pulse of what's actually working. It's sort of what you were talking about where Celine's releasing songs and choosing to release songs because she knows her fan base loves it. She's not really concerned about what the critics think. She's releasing gold and platinum records because that's the process. Right. This song in particular, he wrote with Steve Mack along with two other songs that day. And when they did it, they thought this was going to be, they actually thought this was going to be maybe a little mix song. Like Steve loved it. And afterwards, they went back and they said, well, what do you think of this? and Ed was like, I don't know, maybe it's more of that.

Right, because it has a different sort of feel than Ed Sherin is known for. It's not so much the acoustic guitar feel. It's sort of a dance number. Right. But the thing is that what Steve's great at as the producer of this song and what he's great at in general is that he knows how to, the tracks are minimal. Yeah. So there's not so much going on that you can't just hear the song

and the voice is what really matters. Yep. The club isn't the best place to find the lovers of the bar. is where I go. And he worked on the track and made sure the track was as good as it could be. I actually think maybe some of the other songs that they did that day may have also been cut by other artists. But this one they knew was a special song.

They just didn't know necessarily where it would go. And you'll see with writers throughout the process of an album, they'll choose their single partly around, you know, if everybody wants to cut this song. then at some point they may just say, I guess I should release it. So, you know, I think that, you know, this song in particular, what I like about it is that it's super patient.

It's really patient. You know, to wait after the one on that pre-chorus is what makes that pre-chorus work. Because of the one, that break, it allows us to get sucked in for a second. Right. Which is the only reason why, you know, know, the chorus really pops the way it does is because of the patience going into that pre-chorus.

I'm in love with the shape of you. We push and pull like a magnet do. Although my heart is falling to. And then supporting that lyrical or the rhythmic patience, there is just a really slow build. Right? We have a single riff throughout the entire song. That's right. This sort of Klimba feel.

Which is really hard. It's hard to write a songs where each section has dynamics and they're unique while the track doesn't really slap you in the face. Here's the chorus. It's a lot of voice. And his voice sounds amazing on this record. This is where upon listening multiple times, I realize that this isn't a departure for Ed Shearren,

but it's actually very much his kind of song. So I think people are deceived by the sample that runs throughout, right? That looping, funky sound, this thing, right? Yeah. So when you hear this, you're like, oh, this could be a Diplo track, right? Sure. But then what you get immediately after are acoustic guitar drumming. And Ed Sheeran is known for his live show where he loops himself over and over and over again.

And in many ways, this song builds almost like a solo song that he's looping on his guitar. And each element comes in slowly and then drops back out as if he's hitting a looping pedal. Yeah, you can see Best in the Grammys this year. He was there and he did it. did it live and you can see what he's capable of there. Oh, yes. It's remarkable. And then even just the flow of his words is very normal for Ed Sheeran.

You have a lot of lyrics happening really quickly with a lot of syncopated rhythm. And it works really well with this track, but it's something that he does just as well with a strumming acoustic guitar. So I think he's actually really taking his style of a live performance. performer, his style as a lyricist, his style as an acoustic guitar player, and he's just giving you something slightly different, this little loop. And for most listeners to think, oh, this is a total departure, but it's actually very much in line with everything that he does. Yeah, and in a way, shame on the artist who just releases the same song over and over again. You know, the guy who

releases, if he comes out and he releases A-Team again, my guess is we're all going to say, ah, he already did this and he didn't do it as well as A-Team. I don't. I applaud an artist, especially of the magnitude of Ed's career right now. Not only does he release it, but the idea was that when he releases, he's going to release Castle on the Hill at the exact same time. Which is a totally different song. Totally different song. And it allows his fan base to say he didn't leave us completely. So he's really smart in making sure that that other song will keep the wolves at bay. Right. While Shape of You might call climb up the top 40 and bring in new listeners that might otherwise not have paid attention

a la me and Nate. I've heard that this song was not even going to make the album. Really? Yeah. There are some songs that are on the cusp of, well, it doesn't make sense in the album, but it's such a good song that maybe it should be the single. And that happens on a regular basis because you have a collection of the core eight, nine songs that make up the album.

And then you're trying to figure out what are the best songs that have the best shot. and he decides to go with Shape of You. And I know there were some opponents to that song being the single. And it's that thing of, and he knows this, that if it works and radio does respond to it, then it's fair game for whatever he decides the second, third, fourth, fifth single is. Oh, interesting. Because he then depicts, he's the one is dictating the how radio programmers, are choosing the next single.

And if they fall for a shape of you, they're going to fall for the rest of the album. And it worked. It's a brilliant strategy. Wow. And it's a lot of strategy on that side. That's, you know, I'm thinking about what you've said and maybe now can credit Ed Shearren a little more

with having a very productive mix of being like at once very calculating and at the same time kind of spontaneous. Like these anecdotes, you know, of like having the control over his, release strategy and that kind of calculation at the same time the the spontaneity of busting out a freestyle maybe we hear both of those in his music like i'm thinking about this song now in terms of what charlie was talking about the way it's just like filled with lyrics that sound at once very conversational and very natural yeah and at the same time you think no he really carefully selected where each of these words go and as you were pointing out like where they go in

terms of the rhythm of the song, giving a pause on the first, on the downbeat. So maybe, maybe I'm, starting to see, like, maybe that's kind of part of the secret of his success is that it's like sound, it's very calculated, but sounds very casual at the same time. Last thing I'll say before we get into the song, because I know we need to do that. But, you know, his ingenuity in something like love yourself, which is conversational and is so colorful, his ability to, to, to, write that record and that's an Ed Shearing record. It was the fact that it was mean that he didn't want to release it. The fact that it was not, yeah, I mean, otherwise that'd be an Ed Shear and record. Oh, if you like the way you look that much, oh baby, you should go and love yourself.

So he's still making sure that he puts out records that are primarily a positive message or they're a colorful message. Well, that gets us in to me. me the song, the opening lyric is, the club isn't the best place to find a lover, so the bar is where I go. I think it's a really great line because first it references the tone of the song, right? This is a club song. Oh, yeah, yeah. But it's also subverting its own expectations. Perfect.

And the idea of, man, I'm not having a good time dancing on the floor. I'm just going to go hang out my friends at the bar and have a drink. is immediately recognizable, right? Like, anybody can grab onto that, like, oh, yeah, I know how that feels. And so it has that conversational feeling, and it's actually why upon further listening to this track, I was grabbed by it.

Yeah. It's smart. I mean, you'll start realizing as we go through all these lyrics that none of them are by accident. Right. It's the little details. It's when you say, you know, your love was handmade for somebody like me.

You know, I want your love. Your love was handmade for somebody. The word handmade for somebody like me is actually way more descriptive than we would probably give it credit for just listening and pass. You know, like you would just listen to it and you'd say like whatever you would say. I guess there are a million ways you could say that in it. I don't know if I've ever heard that in a song. I don't know if I've actually ever heard your love was hand.

Your love was handmade for somebody like me. I don't know if I've ever heard those words before in a in a pre-chorus. And when you think about it, how many of those moments. does it take to make a song unique? And already he's starting off with the strong line and that song's in the pre-chorus, you know? Yeah, that handmade line really stood out for me the first time I heard it and kind of is like in some ways the linchpin of this whole song

because I think if we get into a little bit why we also take issue with Ed Shearin, part of it would be a certain, what we perceive as a certain genericness in some of his songs. But that line cuts through in such a powerful way because you're right, it is unique and a little familiar but also unexpected. So, yeah, so I think I like that you highlighted that line. It seems like an important one. Yeah, it's even in the rhyme scheme in the chorus. I'm in love with the shape of you. We push and pull like a magnet do.

Although my heart is falling too. I'm in love with your body. Last night you were in my room. And now my bedsheet smell like you. Every day discovering something brand new. I'm in love with your body. For him to essentially not make it rhyme with, I'm in love with your body, and have it tie it into every day discovering something brand new.

I always thought he was going to go and rhyme with body. Right. You know, but instead he goes, I'm in love with the shape of you, which is actually more of like a Nashville style rhyme scheme. Oh, yeah. Which is really interesting. To me, that was a really interesting choice. that may have happened in the moment.

I'm not saying that was necessarily deliberate, but that's a really smart rhyme scheme because you're expecting it to rhyme my body. At least I was. But because it rhymes, it's not wrong. It's just a choice. So I like that. And again, remember, when you're listening to A-Team,

let's go back to the beginning because I think if you judge Ed Sheeran on this and his whole career on this, or even, you know, what's the record that he won song of the year for? Thinking out loud? Yeah, thinking out loud. Like, that's like a stream of consciousness. Not only is it, you know, it's everything that's antithetical to my career as a professional

songwriter, you know, but then you go and you hear what he can do on something like, love yourself, and you realize that sometimes he's intentionally speaking off the cuff. And the reason why his fan base loves him so much is that it sounds like that kid who is the best guitarist singer-songwriter in your dorm. And you don't feel like, you don't feel like this guy is, he's not a product. He doesn't look like the product.

He doesn't sound like the product. And he deliberately releases songs along the way that can keep you guessing whether or not he's the guy in the dorm or he's Taylor Swift. And that's like, and Taylor Swift is also good at that. Yeah. But those are super deliberate writers

who are doing that on purpose. It's a clever double act to be able to sustain like that. I agree. I like how you say he keeps us guessing. And perhaps that's what makes this song particularly powerful. We've established that it runs on a loop of the exact same chord progression throughout. You have underlying throughout most of the song, the Columba sound and the acoustic guitar drumming. They drop in and out a little bit here and there.

Calimba, incidentally, the sound of 2016, as we were told by Gray in our last episode. Oh, yeah. I mean, it's already, this is the pinnacle of it, you know? You're talking about 10 years ago, people are using Shorty in every song, you know, or you start using the word swag in a song, or you have dubstep bridges. Everything had a dubstep bridge, whatever that is, you know. This is the same sound that you hear in, you know, don't want to know. I don't want to know, no, no, no.

We're taking you home, oh, oh, oh, my loving you so, so, so, so. The way I used to love you know. It's basically the manifestation of what Kaigo did last year. Yep. And this is the pinnacle of where it enters the pop zeitgeist. It's also the things that a lot of labels are already like, yeah, we already have it. Well, so if it is. so established, I think this is exactly the point. It's what he does with it and makes it

different and where he subverts our expectations that makes it work. Well, because it doesn't work with Ed Shearer. Like, who would have thought that it sounds, you know, it's like a remix of an Ed Shearin. Yeah. If Ed Shearin is successfully both establishing something where our expectations are set and then subverts them, where in this song, musically, do you feel like he's playing where their expectations really successfully? Well, I mean, you've realized, obviously you guys on the same page with this that, you know, being a writer isn't being an illusionist. So the fact, it's what I was saying right from the beginning that you kind of have this wordy verse. Sort of rapish. You know, it's reminiscent of kind of that early 2000s kind of like what you dance

to in your fraternity or something like that. It's like kind of like it's got like a big light kind of vibes. And then I think that pre-chorus, that's in late, that's sort of going from the verse, and you have this wordiness, and then purposefully giving that space before the first line of the pre-chorus is really the example of writing at your best. shape of you we push and pull

like a magnet do although my heart is falling too I'm in love with your body last night you were in my room and now my bedsheet smell like you every day discovering something brand new Just when you're waiting for that song

I mean that's a lot of dead space It's a lot of dead space in the middle of a pop record To have what is that I mean I guess the line before it ends before the one that comes in on, what, beat three? So you're talking about a whole measure of just kind of like nothing. Yeah, three long beats.

Well, actually, then you have the, mm-hmm. Yep, you have a little lead in. That was super smart. It gives, I always talk about how we have to frame things. We have to frame titles. We have to frame sections. And he's so well frames each section in this. You know what the verse is, what the pre-chorus is, and what the chorus is.

And you are dragged through it, whether you like it or not. Right. Even the fact that you guys aren't into it, you still at the end, it doesn't matter whether you like it or not. You still ended up listening to the whole thing because it's super well-crafted.

Again, I think part of the reason why I jumped into this thing, that's not for me is I think when I first heard that, the first loop, I was like, I'm not interested. But then I listened all the way through. And then I went and recreated the entire track and tried to break down every little piece. There's so many pieces which are so intentionally assembled to get you from one section into another

or to make you hear a section in a new way. All these moments where there is spaciousness in his vocals. Part of what's happening is there's also these wild polyrhythms happening with a triplet feel in that main line, which is then being supported by or augmented by synth strings that pop up and are kind of in the background and give you something to just like pop up on that last beat of the triplet. So in the Kalimba, he'll go da, da, da, da.

That last note, he'll add a little, strings that pop up over it. And so it's just constantly, each time that it comes through, it's in a new context, even though it's fundamentally so simple. Yeah. And each time that he goes into a new section,

we get, whether it's a, he adds an analog bass, he adds sort of a bigger, thicker bass, he adds that, those synth strings, there's subtle clapping with lots of reverb. And each time, It feels like you're listening to the same thing, but it has a totally new context. So I think those rhythms and how they support each other really reinforces that idea that he can leave spaciousness in his vocals because there's something which is going to catch you, you're going to dance to.

Yeah. Yes, it does seem like the further we dig into this song, the more there is to laud here. But gentlemen, at this point, I have to say it is time to take our commercial break. So when we return more with Ross Golan, stay tuned. Maria, you have a podcast now and you need to start acting like it. What's the first step as a podcaster? Well, you have to ask lots of questions. I'm Maria Sharpova and I'm hosting a new podcast called Pretty Tough.

Every week, I'm sitting down with trailblazing women at the top of their game to discuss ambition, work ethic, and the ups and downs that come on the path to achieving greatness. I have a few pretty tough questions for you. Okay. Ready? Do not sugarcoat something for me. No, no. No. We'll dive into their stories and get valuable insights from top executives, actors, entrepreneurs, and other individuals who have inspired me so much in my own journey. Pretty tough is your front row seat to the women who have demonstrated the power in being unapologetic in their pursuits.

I hope you'll join us. New episodes drop Wednesdays on YouTube or in your favorite podcast app. Immigration may be Donald Trump's signature issue. President Trump is now targeting predominantly Democratic cities for ice race. And deportations. Dozens of protesters clashing with immigration and customs enforcement agents in Minneapolis Tuesday. We will begin the process of returning millions and millions of criminal aliens back to the places from which they came. But what we want to do in this space is talk about America and politics beyond the current president. So what do most Americans think about deportation and border security, period?

I think that Americans are definitely against the kind of violent displays that we've seen in the street from ICE. When it comes to the question of deportation, the answer is more complicated. My sense is that people want border at the border. They don't like the idea of having no idea who's coming into the United States at any given time. The view on immigration from the bottom up instead of the top down. That's this week on America Actually. Every Saturday in your audio and video feeds. Welcome back to Switch on Pop.

We are here in the studio with. songwriter extraordinaire Ross Golan. Not only does he write number one hits for artists like Ariana Grande and Selena Gomez. He also has an awesome podcast where he talks to other songwriters. It's called

And The Writer Is. Thank you. So you have the opportunity to talk to songwriters all the time. Both as a career songwriter, you are constantly collaborating. It's not the individual genius writing on sheet paper anymore. Right.

But that even ever existed is a man. But it was so that was collaboration. I want people to look up the Brill Building. Yeah. Which pre-1964 was essentially a bunch of, you know, mostly two-person writing teams that really were shaping pop music. And they would go and they would have these cubicles essentially with a piano. People would walk in and they would say, what if you do that? What if you do that?

And in that era, I have this debate a lot. Because I'm part of the Grammy board and we talk about these kinds of things. You know, there was an era where the guy who goes, do, do, do, do, do doesn't get songwriting credit. You know, the guy who goes, do do do do do do is playing bass in a bar in Toronto right now to make a living, even though he wrote the hook on two number one songs. So when you see a list of writers, we're making up for the faults of all the generations in, you know, Motown. side. That's not Brill-building those two songs, but where they weren't giving songwriting credit to the people who were actually writing some of the main themes in songs. Right.

So we're a different generation where collaboration is essential in what we do and we actually give credit. So rather than looking at a song, they only had needed two writers to write this song and you see all those memes where it'll be 20 writers on a Beyonce song and they'll show two and they'll somehow say like this is better. No, no, no, no. Those two guys stole a bunch of ideas by the 11 guys who are actually writing a lot of the music. And they, you know, you could look at it like that too. And this is coming from the guy who's writing almost all the lyrics and melodies and sessions. So you've expanded this collaboration beyond just the songwriting room. You're now taking that collaborative songwriting process

into a larger conversation. You have a podcast called And The Writer is. And it's an interview show where you talk one-on-one with other songwriters who I imagine are both part. of your songwriting network, which is an ever-expanding intersecting circles of other songwriters. And you start to see one songwriter participant in this with this other person, and they're all linked together. I wanted to ask you about what kind of things come up between two writers that's different than, say, when a songwriter goes and talks to Terry Gross. I like the U.S. I have a question because I think that's the real difference between what we're doing and what you get on NPR. And the reality is that one is all songwriters have gone through a

little bit of the same process. We all wanted to get in the music business. You know, songwriters were either trying to be artists or they want to be artists still. Right. So most of the guys have either been in bands, have had record deals, they've worked with bands. So we have this similarity there. But in the real human sense, we spend hours and hours together. We eat meals together. We eat. We all know when our families are sick. when it's my wedding and half the people there are songwriters it's not because you know and you're talking about we have a bunch of number one writers and grammy nominating Grammy winning producers at our weddings it's not because we're trying to network it's because when I need when I'm in a

session yeah we're really telling each other what really matters yeah and we're there to hear all of it the darkest and the happiest I mean talking about the guys from shape of you and you're like you know you can hear in the Benny the executive producer that you'll you if you listen to that you can hear one we've been close for a long time but his story's incredible you know you're talking about a guy who wrote and I kissed a girl at 18 years old and and that was not he had at before that had already had number one songs wow you're talking about a guy who essentially lived on the streets in in New York because his mentor passes away and he's looking for a place to live.

And you're like, this guy's journey is incredible. That interview had me totally, I was totally enraptured in it. His story is... Yeah, like, how are we supposed to be friends? Like, how am I, I'm just an overgrown kid from the suburbs of Chicago who, with Steve Mac, you know, when I go to London, Steve, the producer of Shape of You, you know, I tend to write mostly with Steve when I'm there. So we go and we spend, you know, I get a hotel that's only three stops away from, you know, from his studio.

And we spend a lot of time just the two of us in front of a piano, you know, and it's just the two of us talking about life. I've gone to concerts with him and his girls, you know. I know about his family. I know these guys are not just to everybody else, they're writers, and to us, we're family. We're literally going through this grind together because we have to. It's just this huge network of friends and family, which is different than that previous generation. You know, when we talk about all those songs that had only two writers on it, man, I wish I was back then. I'd be a lot more wealthy.

But in a practical sense, there was a lot of animosity in that generation. And there was, there were a lot of bullies in the music business. And right now there are no bullies. You have to be nice. You have to be friends because word travels really fast when you're a dick. So everyone wants, everyone's friends with each other. And this podcast, to me, I have this book that everybody signs that I work with. Yeah.

And there's 400 names in it. It's everyone from like Bon Jovi to David Getta. And then it's everyone from Lamont Dozier to Maxx. Martin. And to me, it's like, I want to go back and I want to sit there and talk to these guys about how is it possible that I'm sitting in a room with Savin Cotecha, who wrote into you, who I, you know, when you guys did that. Sovin's this guy who was born in a conservative Indian family in the middle of conservative Texas. And he happens to write songs in his room because he loves it. Yeah. He writes a song and he sends off.

this song to like a competition. He ends up getting this weird deal with in Nashville. The song ends up making it to the A&R for Backstreet Boys. And he almost had a 100% song on Millennium until his parents said, no, no, no, you made a deal with somebody in Nashville. You can't do that. At 17 years old, he almost sold 25 million copies of a song. So how does this kid in a conservative family in Texas, who's a first generation

American. How does he end up in Sweden? How does he then marry a girl end up as a vocal coach on X Factor in the UK where he is the opportunity to break one direction? Which then brings him to L.A., where he then ends up being a big part of Max Martin's publishing company. How is it that that guy who I've been friends with for years, you know, I write Dangerous Woman in my car you know bring it spend a month on that chorus bring it into my friend who's um who i write almost everything with we rewrite the song they you know put it all together yeah and we show show savin and even though at the this time it was with another artist savin's like let me play it for ariana he plays it for ariana ariana comes upstairs and says can i please make this the lead single i'll make

this the name of my tour and my album if you just let me have a chance yeah So we give her the chance and she kills it. And so my life has changed because an Indian guy from Texas finds his way into the same family that I end up in. Like that's what that podcast is about. I like that you call it a family because not only are your stories interconnected, because you all depend upon each other, but in the songwriting process, you have to have such a deep level of trust. because you have to be able to say, your chorus doesn't work.

You're going to scrap that, we're going to do this. Okay, cool. Oh, but your idea, no, well, let's work on something together. You're constantly having to be vulnerable. You're having to give up ideas. You're having to present ideas. And you have to be in a place of both having complete buy-in around the vision of what you're producing,

but also no attachment to what's happening as it's going. Yeah. Imagine these artists who are all over TMZ, who are all over the world, and they have to walk in and they have to tell me their deepest, darkest things that are going on. You know, like these people are really brave in many ways. And they're having to walk in and they have to go and they have to tell me about what they're really dealing with. And they have to trust me.

Yeah. You know, I always say if you want to know what it's like to write a song, to be a professional writer, walk in a room with people you don't know, sing at them, and then ask what they think. Yeah, for sure. You know, I mean, I have to walk in and every single time, I mean, I was with a major artist last night and it's still the same thing. It's like, okay, I had this idea. Is this any good? Yeah.

You know, for all angles. I mean, we're all like that with each other. And it's like, I have no idea. I mean, imagine just walking into any room and sing it with at whoever the people are in the room and just you'd be nervous. I don't care how many times you've done it. I don't care how many times you think you've had a hit song. Like, you're just a kid in their car thinking of a concept and working through a melody and being like, I don't know. It's good?

And I guess the writer is what's so exciting about it is that we talk a lot about process and how people write. But the people who write these songs are just fascinating. Yeah, there's some really great stories in there. Yeah. So if people want to go listen, they should find it. iTunes, anywhere you find your podcast. iTunes, Spotify now. It's basically anywhere we can find podcasts.

All of our handles are at, and the writer is, or I'm at at Ross Golan. And, uh, yeah, there you go. Awesome. Well,

it was such a pleasure having you on the show. Really excited to, to break down those songs. I definitely am a bit more of an ad sheer and convert, both for his, uh, sheer talent that is incredible to hear about. And also as I listen more to his tracks,

I find, uh, I am more drawn in. Uh, so thanks for breaking it down with us. Yeah, of course. Thank you guys.

Switched-on-pop is produced by me, Charlie Harding. And me, Nate Sloan. Brandon McFarlane, edits, mixes, and masters are show. Sarah Terry is our community manager, and our executive producers are Nashat Kerwa and Allison Rocky. We're a production of Fox Media. You can find more episodes at Switchedonpop.com or anywhere else you listen to podcasts. Hit us up on Twitter, Instagram, at Switched on Pop.

We'll be back with more episodes in another week. See you next Tuesday. And thanks for listening.