Switched on Pop - Silk Sonic's Retro Soul (with Tayla Parx)

Episode Date: April 6, 2021

Anderson Paak and Bruno Mars have joined forces as the duo Silk Sonic, and their first release “Leave the Door Open” suggests that their collab is as natural as peanut butter and jelly. The song exudes throwback vibes through its lush harmonies and sensuous lyrics. But this isn’t any run-of-the-mill exercise in empty nostalgia. Silk Sonic have a very specific sound in mind that they’re reviving for 21st century audiences: Philly Soul, the sophisticated 70s sound that “put a bow tie on funk.” Charlie and Nate aren’t the only ones trying to blow the dust out of the grooves of “Leave the Door Open.” Songwriter Tayla Parx, who’s worked with everyone from Ariana Grande to Panic! At the Disco to Anderson Paak himself, joins the hosts to help explain how Silk Sonic created such a catchy track, and why modern listeners might be ready for a blast from the past.  Songs Discussed Silk Sonic - Leave the Door Open Aretha Franklin - I Say a Little Prayer The Temptations - My Girl Marvin Gaye and Tammi Terrell - Ain’t No Mountain High Enough Martha and the Vandellas - Dancing in the Street Otis Redding - Try a Little Tenderness Sam and Dave - Soul Man Commodores - Who’s Making Love MFSB - TSOP O’Jays - Love Train Billy Paul - Me and Mrs. Jones The Stylistics - You Are Everything Harold Melvin and the Blue Notes - If You Don’t Know Me By Now The Delfonics - Didn’t I Blow Your Mind Seals and Croft - Summer Breeze Smokey Robinson - Quiet Storm Teddy Pendergrass - Close the Door Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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It's free for iOS users. Welcome to Switched on Pop. I'm songwriter Charlie Harding. And I'm musicologist Nate Sloan. Nate, when we were listening Down Billboard the other day, there has never been such a fast agreement on a song that we had to dive into.

Yeah, usually there's a lot of back and forth. Usually I'm very resistant to every suggestion you have for songs we should cover. And then gradually you wear me down and I concede. But with leave the door open by Silk Sonic, aka Anderson Pack and Bruno Mars. There was no conversation.

There was instant agreement that this needed to be the next song we cover. I got to say it feels like we're living in an age of nostalgia. And this took me to some specific moments immediately that I just like, I had to investigate. I needed to know what are Anderson Park and Bruno Mars doing? Yeah. What is this project? Right. Like, they met in 2017 on tour together on the 24-carat magic European run. They had, like, tracked a bunch of stuff. And then just a few weeks ago, we get this surprise drop.

Like, super group, looking back to 1970s soul music, we get this group, Silk Sonic, which, by the way, fun fact, named by the famed bass player Bootsie Collins. What? Played with James Brown, Pralman Funkadelic, named the band Silk Sonic. And even introduced. their first single. And ladies, to make your way to the stage for a band that I name, Silk, Silent. What, Mr. Space Base himself? Unreal. That's pretty much the best accolade you can ask for.

Totally. Yeah, I feel the same way about this song. I mean, as someone who always felt like they were born in the wrong time period, I love hearing this kind of throwback soul on the radio. bumping up the charts. It makes my soul happy. So to a lot of other people. This song peaked at number two on the Hot 100. It's at number three as we record right now. What was your just initial reaction to hearing this thing? Where does it take you? I mean, what I love about this is that there is a reverence for these genres of the past. Yeah. For the 70s soul that you're referring to. But it's not like

too precious. It has, there's still a sense of humor. And there's still a sense of humor. And there's There's like a certain kind of contemporaneousness to it that makes this not just a sort of pure mimicry of something from the past, but reviving those sounds and then updating them for the present. That's why this song is so funny. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's one of those things where when you hear it, you know it. You're like, oh, I know this song, but I can't quite put my finger on it. And for me, the thing that immediately grabbed my attention was the harmonic journey that they send us on. because we've been living in an era of a lot of loop-based music,

simple chord progressions, and from moment one of this song, we enter into this very rich, emotive, romantic, harmonic world. There's some chords up in here. It gets jazzy here, and it doesn't get jazzy just for the sake of, pleasing, you know, jazz nerds like yourself, Nate, or... Right, right. The Harmony snobs out there. They are using Harmony to take us on a real journey.

Because this song is about leaving the door open. And Bruno and Anderson are waiting for the object of their affection to walk right through. But they're not going to give that away right from the start. They're going to make us work for it. We're going to have to wait for that moment. And the way that they do this is they say, start us with this non-resolving chord progression. Never lands in the home key on these really luscious chords.

Ooh, play that, play that thing, Charles. Like, that could go anywhere. Kind of, it's open, it's a little ethereal, smoky. You can see the choreography just to the chords. We've got Anderson setting the scene, sipping wine, hanging out in his mansion, hoping for that love of his life to walk on through that door. But Anderson's dreams in the verse are not going to be immediately fulfilled. Instead, we have to go to stage left, pull in Bruno Mars, and Bruno

takes our chords into a whole new territory, modulates into this very strange place. Bruno Mars modulates the song into a whole new key. The energy continues to build all this tension. It's like, you've got to lie in these arms. He sets up this big cadence and you think it's going to land us into this final resolution. and no. No. No.

We land into the chorus back into our non-resolving chord progression, moving around, feeling really not sure what's going to happen. They're saying, I'm leaving the door open, and it's not until the very end of the chorus, a minute in that we finally get that resolve. We land on our nice, big, cozy C major chord.

It's our home key. We've arrived. And, of course, what happens right here? Tell me that you're coming for. We say, baby, tell me that you're coming through. Someone's going to walk through that door. And we finally, minute into the song, we know where we are. We have a sense of being at ease.

Well, I am digging this harmonic adventure because I remember listening to the song and I thought, there's some really interesting stuff happening here. And then I just kind of let you go and figure it out. And now I'm reaping the rewards of it. Because what I'm hearing is that in this kind of, bifurcated structure where we have like these two very different sections of music. Right. Neither of which give us sort of a clear harmonic home place.

It makes us wait for the very end of the chorus to finally feel like we're settling in a key of C major. And that suspense like mirrors the message of the song. I'm leaving the door open. Are you going to come through? That's pretty cool. I love this. And when I said at the top, this feels totally familiar. It only feels familiar in a throwback kind of way.

Like this is not a common occurrence on the pop charts these days. This is a total aberration. But I couldn't quite pinpoint what the references were that I was hearing. Like I could tell this was some kind of soul memory palace. Right. I just couldn't unlock it. And so I called up some of our friends and colleagues that would have a better answer. First person I thought to chat with was our engineer, Brandon, who just loves this music.

I mean, it's all of it, man. It's like pure soul. Just the way the verses like talk back and forth with the harmonies, because back then it was like, you know, if you take like Aretha Franklin's song, like her sisters would be singing back there. And, you know, they come in at certain parts and they lay out. And when you saw it on stage, it was the exact same thing.

It's like the lead singing. Like sometimes they, you know, they'd fill in. You know, not like harmonies now where they're sort of like layered underneath what you're singing is more like I'm going to sing. My background singer is going to sing. It's like a conversation. So Brandon's right on, right? We hear that same kind of call and response vibe right in the first verse of Leave the Door Open. Anderson sings, background singers pop in.

That's one of my favorite parts of the track. That's that like kind of that humor that I was talking about that makes the song feel like it's not just reheating. you know, classic tracks. No, for sure. This is a very funny song, and we're going to get to the humorous part in a minute. Okay. But before we do that, we have to get very serious for a moment.

No, until then, no laughter. No laughter. No jokes. Deeply serious. Tell me something serious about the song. What's serious about this song is that I knew Brandon was onto something with this soul reference, but I wanted to go deeper and be like, yeah,

but what kind of soul? Because a lot of folks know that are like, soul is this 60s, 70 movement, black music happening in the civil rights era. But it was also a very regional music. You had music labels tied to cities that had their own sort of sound. So there's not just one soul. There is New Orleans soul. There's Chicago soul. And then there's the big three that over the last week I've been listening to the most.

A lot of people probably think soul. they think Motown, they think Detroit. Has that assembly line, polished pop hit quality. It's not as jazzy, has some of those orchestral sounds in it, but this is just, you know, it's pop soul. It's pop soul, totally. Like so many record labels at the time, there was a great band that often backed all of the Motown hits, the Funk Brothers. We hear them on songs like The Temptations My Girl, Marvin Gay and Tammy Terrell's ain't

no mountain high enough. And Martha Reeves, the Vendal is dancing in the streets. But when I think about what Leave the Door Open is doing, Silk Sonic doesn't seem to be pointing to the more poppy qualities of Motown for me. So I kept on listening, went further south down to Memphis, where you had Stax Records, Booker T and the MGs, the house band, doing a more sort of southern sound, bluesy, groovy,

groovy, lots of organs and horns. You can think of like Otis Reddings, try a little tenderness. Oh, I will. Nice. Or, of course, the famous Sam and Dave's Soul Man. I love it. Love Memphis Soul. But that doesn't feel like the right reference either, you know? Yeah. What are you hearing on Leave the Door Open that we're missing?

Well, I'm hearing those jazzy harmonies you talked about. Right. I'm hearing these kind of more like kind of laid back, kind of delicate vocals. Mm-hmm. And I'm hearing a more. kind of orchestral approach maybe? Totally. And I should have been on it.

I love these sounds. But honestly, I just couldn't figure out where they were coming from. So I called up our friend Zach Tenorial Miller, who helped us do some re-harmonizations of our theme song, has played with Kimbra and in the band Ark Iris. He has just such an amazing ear for harmony. I knew he could point us in the right direction. It's Philly's soul all the way. Philly Soul. Philly for the win.

Exactly. Okay. This is good because I am familiar with some of these artists from Philly Soul. I know a little bit about the history, but like I could use a tutorial in what makes this track a Philly Soul throwback. Like you gave me the breakdown of Motown in Detroit and Stacks in Memphis. Like what's the Philly scene? Why does it sound the way it does? How does this track use those influences?

So Fred Wesley, who is the trombonist for Parliament Funkadelic and James Brown, he described it as putting the bowtie on funk. It has big strings, jazzy chords, like it feels like it's a little fancier. And there are whole scenes happening in Philly, but really centered around the label Philadelphia International, the songwriting team and owners Gamble and Huff and their house band, MFSB. You probably know something like T-S-O-P. Oh, yeah. Yeah, the sound of Philadelphia. And it became the theme for Soul Train. You get that really polished, big string sound on the OJ's love train.

Holy. I hear the bowtie. I really do. It's slick. It's slick, man. If there's anywhere, you can get that tuxedo vibe, though, man. It's on Billy Paul's, me and Mrs. Jones. Yeah, that's Fancy A. F. You can take that song out to the French laundry or Le Cirque. That's how polished and buttoned up that track is. Mm, luscious. I love it. No jokes.

Remember, we're keeping this real serious here. Oh, sorry, sorry. I know. We saved them for later. But here's the thing that's like, all right, we're in the Philly Soul World. I'm hearing that tuxedo thing. Zach went way deep for us and did some homework, pulled in his buddy musician Steve Taylor, and put together this whole playlist where,

I mean, remember I said this is like a memory palace of Seoul? Like, there are some specific references that I think they're pulling from and Zach found them for us. The first one I put on this list, I think it's just the same core progression. So that's the stylistics, You Are Everything. Play it back to back with Leave the Door Open. We're one key away, but basically same progression. Feels like these guys were in the studio,

digging deep into their their Philly Soul catalog. Yeah, I hear the resemblance. But it's not the only one. Zach found some other amazing connections. Harold Melvin and the blue notes have the song, If You Don't Know Me By Now. You probably do know the song by now.

And it has got these over-the-top modulations that feel so similar to what they're doing and leave the door open. Oh, M. God. I am feeling those. rich chord changes. And yeah, I take your point. Maybe they're not the exact same chord progression as we hear in Silksonic,

but they've got to be riding that Harold Melvin and the Blue Notes wavelength. Totally. When we move into the pre-chorus and leave the door open, it has that same awesome ascendant quality. What's nuts about this song is that they don't just like do this once. It keeps on happening. Like later on, leave the door open. There's this bridge that goes into yet another harmonic space.

Feels like we're still searching for that person we love. Come on through that door. Nate, your smile is so large right now. It's over the top and I'm here for it. It was a whole thing. I got to do one more because I love when things modulate. I'm sorry. If that one didn't blow your mind, I've got a song that will.

It's called Didn't I Blow Your Mind. I'm sorry about the joke. It's by the Dolphonics. Oh, out of line. In order to blow someone's mind that keep just taking you on this journey, you were moving. Yeah, I mean, listening to these, it takes me back to something you said at the top of the episode,

which is just how different all these Philly Soul tracks sound from the stuff we're accustomed to hearing on the hot 100, especially in regards to harmony. Because in any one of the things, these examples, we hear like a dozen rich, funky, crunchy chords. And in, you know, the majority of pop hits, you just get like two or three cycle. And that's fine. As we've talked about many times on the show, you know, pop music does not need to be harmonically complex to be great. But this stands out. Yeah. And reaching back to that harmonic trick bag for Silk Sonic is a way to differentiate themselves.

Can I give you one more Easter egg from Zach? You may. I will gobble it up. last thing I'll tell you, did you notice the summer breeze quote? They're paying an homage. All right. You catch that? Wait, summer breeze by seals and croft. Okay, take me there. Love that little xylophone. Or is it a Glock and spiel? I think it's a Glock and Spiel. Perhaps Marimba. This remains unresolved since we tried to uncover it in Goate Ye. So we're just kind of further embarrassing ourselves and flailing. Well, I will impress you by going to leave the door open. Check this. Okay, I'm a little skeptical.

Let me hear these back to back one more time. Just like the slightest little quotation. One goes down. One goes up at the end. I don't know. Maybe. Yeah, we'll give it to ZTM. I mean, he was on point with all the other references.

So I have no reason to do it now. Not a Philly Soul reference I should point out. and Zach wasn't making that connection, just more showing how these guys are digging deep. And, you know, you had mentioned that this song is not just serious. It's pretty goofy, right? Yeah. I think that a lot of the reasons why it feels familiar and fresh is that they are drawing from a lot of different references.

And one of them did not sit well with our executive producer, Hannah Rosen. Uh-oh. Uh-oh. nervous. I am into Bruno Mars. I have spent a lot of time watching videos of Bruno Mars dancing. I'm super into his whole fluid vibe. Leave the door open 100% works. But, but, but, but, but I just can't with the quiet storm. I don't know what it is. I have never been able to get down with the quiet storm. It's like the campy vibe or something. When I was a kid, my dad used to play Quiet Storm. in his taxi.

He was a taxi driver and we used to make so much fun of the lyrics like in this case it's like if you're a hungry girl I got filets. Okay. I hear you on the filets.

That line always makes me a lot. I'm like, ooh, I don't know. Raw meat. Like why are you bringing raw meat into this sexy scenario? Like that you could just leave that out of that. But one thing left me wondering,

I was like, Quiet Storm, that's cool. What's Quiet Storm? I should know what Quiet Storm is. How do I not know what Quiet Storm is? Do you know what Quiet Storm is? I don't know much, but I think it's a radio format that was very popular with like black adult contemporary audiences in the 80s. Is that somewhere around the right mark?

Yeah, ding, ding, ding, ding. My research points to-Shadee comes to mind. Totally. Yeah, so Quiet Storm was this radio format started by the DJ Melvin Lindsay. in 1976 he was at Howard University's W.H.U.R. and started doing this late-night program called Quiet Storm named after Smokey Robinson's song of the same name. It's the kind of thing that you heard in Philly Soul as well,

a Teddy Pendergrass song called Close the Door, maybe a reference. Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. Close the door. Let me give you what you've been waiting for. I got so much love here. I mean, Anderson, Bruno, leaving the door open. Teddy's closing the door once someone comes through. So perhaps yet another kind of throwback reference in this, like, retro cauldron of funky soul, quiet storm mashups that the guys in Silk Sonic are brewing up for unsuspecting listeners in 2021.

A lot of people who have been pulling on the funk vibes for a while, but you throw in that a little bit of the Philly Soul, throw in the quiet storm. And that's what I'm catching from Silksonic. And yet, somehow, it's working really well right now because there's something about the song, which is still totally contemporary. And that kind of alluded me. And I felt like to figure out why is this song working and so successfully taking a retro thing and making it modern,

I needed to talk with someone who would have firsthand experience. And so I called up Taylor Parks. You probably know her as a songwriter for Thank You Next with Ariana Grande, Love Lies with Khalid and Normani. He wrote on High Hope's Paguerre the disco. She's written for Duolipa, Cuevo, Dan & Shea, Janelle Monet. She's like across every genre. And of course, she's written with Anderson Park on his song Tints with Kendrick Lamar.

And so after the break, we're going to hear from the wonderful Taylor Parks about why Silk Sonic and our whole. world of retro nostalgia things actually working out so well right now. Awesome. Maria, you have a podcast now and you need to start acting like it. What's the first step as a podcaster? Well, you have to ask lots of questions. I'm Maria Sharpova and I'm hosting a new podcast called Pretty Tough. Every week, I'm sitting down with trailblazing women at the top of their game to discuss ambition, work ethic, and the ups and downs that come on the path to achieving greatness. I have a few pretty tough questions for you. Okay. Ready?

Ready. Do not sugarcoat something for me. No, no. No. We'll dive into their stories and get valuable insights from top executives, actors, entrepreneurs, and other individuals who have inspired me so much in my own journey. Pretty tough is your front row seat to the women who have demonstrated the power in being unapologetic in their pursuits. I hope you'll join us. New episodes drop Wednesdays on YouTube or in your favorite podcast app.

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It's Taylor Parks. I guess I'm curious from your perspective, do you feel like we're living in this age of musical nostalgia? Is this a thing that's going on right now? I honestly think that every year there's at least one moment of nostalgic like music, right? So we went through a phase of like, it was 90s everything, you know, when Bruno and Cardi did that record together. Right now we're kind of in the late 70s, early 80s phase. Right. I mean, the weekend took us into the 80s.

You know, everything comes back eventually. I'm sure there's a time that I'm forgetting about what we've been in like the early 2000 phase of that type of music. But right now we are there and I love it because of the fact that there is a point where minimalism was really, really in. And now people are like, give it all to me. I want all of the feels, you know? When you say minimalism was really in,

is that a production and songwriting, from a production and songwriting perspective? And could you maybe provide some examples? Oh, very much so. Can't keep my hands to myself. Selena Gomez, those can't keep my hands into the self, no matter how hard I'm trying to. Like very simplistic and precise melodies, which is great.

Because you see like an evolution of it, you know, in trap music and, you know, mumble, rap and things like that, which is very simplistic melodically. But the structure just started to change and get along. and maybe you don't just do verse and pre and hook, and maybe you're doing a post hook, and maybe that post hook is also the pre. Things like that have started just really changing over time.

Growing up, when I first started writing, Babyface was one of my first mentors in the songwriting world. And it was very, you know, just classic verse pre hook. And it was the lucky thing, though, that I did was it was always musical, because he's baby face. You know what I mean? It was always something that was beautiful, which I love. I love that.

I'm a very musical person. And I tend to lean into the melody a lot when I'm writing. So to hear that kind of coming all the way back around and, you know, hearing live instruments on tracks and not just synths and things like that is really awesome. So I'm curious from your perspective, you write across genre. Like you've been recently in Nashville right now and you're in Miami. That seems particularly unique to have that capacity. You know, some records that come to mind are like you have a track on future nostalgia,

Duleepa's record. You have contributions to Janelle Monet's record, especially think about like pink, which has like both some like 80s and very specific 90s references to Aerosmith in it. Like you not only know genre, but you know your different eras. And even your own record. Dance alone. Dance alone is like this cool down tempo disco track on your record coping mechanisms. Why don't we go into your track, Dance Alone?

What are the ways in which you're nodding to the past and what are some of the ways that it's contemporary? Of course. So when you break apart dance alone and it first came about with just, I was just in the studio in New York and playing these two chords on the guitar. And I went back into Oscar and Jeff and was like, yo, I got these two chords. that are awesome, but we didn't know where they landed because they're very, very simple chords. But when things started to come around it, Jeff started playing that bass line. Now we're in the funk era. You know, now we have a little bit of that.

But then, top line-wise, I wanted to go, how do we go not so traditional? If we're going to have a funky track, if we're going to have that, then the top line has to be something a little bit of gritty. That's why that left hand's up right hand on the body. It has the feeling and the emotion of back in the day, but it's a very 2020 cadence, you know? Break that down a little bit more for me. Like, what makes that cadence so contemporary?

In the 70s and the 80s, we were in the year of like a crooner when it comes to R&B music, right? And the music was so smooth, and you had just incredible groups and things that were really, really tight. But this cadence, if you just take the boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. boom boom that's a trap cadence you know if you just take the cadence and it's the emotion that I'm delivering it in and the still the fact that it's melodic you know that still gives it that soul you know so even though I'm feeling some like disco and funk vibes I'm very much in the 21st

century when I'm listening to dance alone and that's that's the real thing because when you're having, when you're like just having a, taking a nod to these older genres of these more classic sounds and the instruments and stuff, you also have to make sure that you're finding an original way to do it. Nobody wants to, like, I'm, in particular, I'm like, I don't want to hear you try to imitate an old song. Like, I would rather listen to the old song because it has life in it. It has so many other things, right? So if you're going to do it, you know, it, still try to do it with just a fresh approach, you know, which is what I think is what allows music to evolve.

You know what I mean versus doing the same thing? Because the evolution of music is about basically creating a new gumbo, a new formula, a new way of intertwining genres. Part of what instigated this question for me is Silksonics leave the door open, which is just like pure 1970s Philadelphia's source. and, you know, it's a very winky song. It's taking itself extremely serious musically, and it's very lighthearted lyrically. Yes.

When I was listening to it, though, like, you know, it feels so nostalgic because it feels like it's recorded to tape. I don't even know if it has a click. Yep. And yet, it still sounds really contemporary. And the thing for me that was doing that was Anderson's vocal. and I know you contributed to Anderson's record, Oxnard, you work with him on the song, Tintz with Kendra Lomar, and he just has a certain flow that feels like today, but I just like, I can't put my finger on it. And I was wondering if you would be down to like take a peek at that verse with me and see, like, is there anything that you identify that feels like what's happening now as opposed to what would have been happening in like the 70s Philly Soul thing?

Well, I definitely think lyrically is where he really got us to because it's so cheeky. So it's not like just the typical, you know, you have the hook where it's like, I'm going to leave the door open. It sounds classic. It sounds, you know what I mean? But what you're doing? Are you got plans? Oh, don't say that. Like, you hear his, like, I love that part as you can tell.

But it doesn't sound like people trying to do music back then. It sounds like his own interpretation, which he's very good for. because he's a musician. And when you're a student of music, you can say, what is it specifically that I like about that that I'm trying to capture now, you know? And once you get that, and because also, you know, him and Bruno are our musicians, you're able to really, really play shuffle, right? I can't imagine how many changes the song five we went through in drum pattern

or in melodic, you know, rhythm or cadences or whatever, you know. but it's definitely something in this verse, it's lyrically to me that makes it feel so today because it's so conversational. And of course, just his personality shining through. You know what I mean? You can tell that this is just somebody who's a little bit silly and a little bit, you know what I mean? It's not too serious, which I love. There's this line in particular for me was like a giveaway. And again, like this is where I can hear it, but I don't quite know what it is. I'm wondering if you can help me narrow in.

It's the silliest line. I'm sorry, I'm going to say this aloud. It's deeply embarrassing. So it's the end of the first verse. He goes, my house clean, my pool warm, just shaved, smooth like a newborn. We should be dancing, Romanson in the east wing and the west wing of this mansion. What's happening? Like, come on.

Come on. Like, that is very, very good. And it's, it's like, going back to, like, I remember when I was talking about the verse on dance along. It has that thing where it's like, you got, um, it's, you can hear it in his voice, you know, but those cadences are still, until you get to the kissing, hugging, rubbing, it's very, that's the only classic thing that's like, oh, okay, I see what you're doing. Everything else is very, just new and very him, because he always had that, I think in most of his music, he has a way of just being genuinely saying, like, I know you can hear the,

those influences, look how I made them my own. I feel like one of the things that I get from that verse is recognizing that Anderson is an equally talented singer as he is rapper and the sort of rhyme schemes in it don't feel like something you would have heard in the 1970s where he has this like intensification of inner rhyme schemes and things like that. Completely. You're completely right on that. It's just a different approach. It's because of the fact that he is a rapper. You know what I mean?

And he's like you see on this record. He can sing too. You know, but when you have that type of mindset and it's not, you're not approaching it from an R&B writer's mindset or you're not approaching it from a pop songwriter style like mindset, you really can just say, look, he's such a student of music that he can kind of go into any of those worlds. You know, like the conversations that I have with him and even when we were on tour and when we were first starting to work because we met through Christina Aguilera working on that album.

And so coming from there, and that was the first time that we worked and to see how he moved and to see his process, you can tell that he's a student of music. And I always stress that because a lot of people forget that in order to be able to do that and to be able to make it uniquely your own, you have to understand the same way that any songwriter has to understand, well, how did you write that hit song? Did you understand why? Can you do it again and again and again? And he's one of those artists.

I was going back to Tintz, which was a real favorite of mine when that record came out. First time I heard the song, like, oh, this is a silly song about your car or whatever. And then you're like, oh, no, this actually has like a really powerful message in it as well. And he's really good at sort of riding multiple meanings within a song, obviously needing tense in order to avoid constant persecution by racist cops. in the pre-chorus I sort of get the same vibe that I got in Leave the Door Open which is the pre-corus goes

I've been in my bag adding weight trying to throw a bag in a safe gigantor and chase and raise and babes And that line And I don't know if you worked on that particular line But what stuck out to me is like Weight safe and babes Are all just slant rhymes

They don't they're not They're not on rhymes But the way that he delivers them you're like, it's so confident. And then you have that intensification thing, that gig and tour and chor and raisin. Yes, I was definitely a part of that line with him. And literally, it was something. We looked at each other and I'm like, come on.

You know what I mean? Come on. And the way that he did, and I'm from Texas. So I'm all about an off-rime. I'm like, look, we can make it rhyme. You know what I mean? But so, but he has that thing that's like, okay, if it makes sense, it just makes sense. You know what I mean?

It doesn't have to be so, like when I first started writing and, you know, it was like the year of like, this is the way that you write a pop song and this is the way that you do it and it has to be this and this and that. That's when I first started to come into the industry. It wasn't until I was like, you know what, I don't even care about any of those rules besides what seems to make sense in that particular song. The moment that that happened was when records like boss happened and it's very different in musical. But at the time when I first came into that for the fifth harmony thing, that wasn't a sound. It wasn't anything popping. You know what I mean? And then you hear bang bang.

And then it becomes like, wow, we're going into just over the past five to seven years. We've just seen a shift in people wanting to hear more musical things. And they don't want to hear, they don't necessarily want to say, I know what's coming next, which is what every pop person, you know, thinks. Not everybody wants to know what's, oh, I knew you were going to say that line. And that's what Anderson has, and that's what's in Silksonic. And with a lot of the songs that we're hearing, you know, today, that are my favorites anyway. Yeah, our team meets once a week to discuss what we're listening to.

And after yesterday's meeting, I was like, I think the chord that summarizes how we're feeling about music. right now, just after everything we shared, was this chord? Mm. You know what I'm saying? Some, like, some like crunchy, smooth, yummy, like, uppercid and harmonies. Yes. But, like, we're not doing just like a...

No. No, we're like, we need a chord with some emotion. No, no obvious things. And of course, you'll still have that. But even if that chord is obvious, we're pushing our musicians right now. And I love it. Especially because we're in a time when, and when I say we're, I think, fans, you know what I mean? The fans are enjoying and reacting to the songs that are coming out that are different than just,

oh, we're going to do a simple one, three, five, and boom, boom, boom, and then that's just be what it is, right? They're adding different elements, and this is the time. This is the time that we're making the new rules that are going to be the ones for the next, you know, year we're here on radio, and then it'll evolve into something else. But the thing that excites me is, yay, we have, you know, more people just being a student of their craft. I was working with Ian Dior, and he was just discovering who Van Halen was. And to see that excitement on his face was so awesome because it's not even a bad thing

because he's very young, you know? But it was just so awesome to see the excitement. And like, remember the last time you heard something that just blew your mind? You know what I mean? He was in that phase. And I know that that's going to be good for music. That's awesome. What I'm hearing from you is that even though every year there's sort of a nod to something in the past,

you really feel like over the last five years music is moving forward into sort of uncharted territory and that those illusions actually include lots of new kinds of forms and rhyme schemes. Completely. There's a lot of creativity in there for you. Completely. Like, I love it. As the young and in the room, when I was first coming in, it was literally like, wait, why do I have to follow these rules? Okay, got it.

You know what I mean? It was one of those things. But now, you know, I'm seeing, like, the newer writers come in and producers come in. And they're just doing what feels right. Because you know why? Because people have been able to put songs out and, you know, streaming is completely different. And the way that you get music out there is just completely different. So people are understanding, wow, the possibilities of a hit, quote unquote, you know, a quote

unquote hit song are limitless, you know, there is no one way to do it or two or three ways. You can literally just do what feels right. And that's never been more true now than like ever. That's awesome. I mean, it makes sense why like if Bruno is just kind of like, all right, I'm going to do a new jack swing thing. All right, I'm going to do a Philly Soul thing. Like, I'm just going to do it. And of course, you know, he's got the clout to do it and he brings the right people together to make it happen.

And can pull it off because that's something hard to do genuinely. But he's like such an incredible performer and musician and writer. Totally. Okay, lovely. Can you give me any foresight into what is 2021 sounding like? You're in these songwriting camps. You're in these sessions. You're writing lots of songs.

What's going on? I think we're in a very interesting phase over the next. We'll see it over the next two or three months. People were going to disco it on out. They're going to be like, boom, boom, boom. That's going to be that. But we're coming to the end of that, which is interesting. I think we're still going to be in this nostalgic vibe.

But exploring different parts of those things that we enjoy about the 70s and, you know, and we might even go further back. Right now, it's been just based off of every genre is doing a different thing. So when I was in Nashville, they're doing like, and every artist is different. But of course, they're very much so in their crossover. crossover, country record phase. It's not like, but one session, I did something that was an old kind of Willie Nelson. So I'm like, okay, maybe that might be, maybe people do want to hear that because my hope is

that people will take advantage of the fact that people just want to hear something real right now, you know, and like I've been seeing the reaction to POV on the charts and, you know, from Ariana's album, and it's a ballad, you know, and people love a bop. but I think that we're going to have a lot more ballads and just real music. You know, in the 60s and 70s, they had artists that were making songs that had to do with the climate of the world. We don't have that type of thing anymore, but I think that artists are understanding how important it is to be talking about what is going on. Now, not in a preachy way, not in an obvious way, but something. You've only got three minutes to say something.

You know? You better make it good. You know what I mean? If you only have that much time. And so I just think we're going a lot more into just more conscious music. And when I say conscious, just the artist, whatever phase that they're in in their life. But I definitely think that we don't know sonically where it's going to go. I just know subject-wise, the artist that I've been working with and the artists that I haven't been working with that my friends are working with, they want to talk about.

real stuff, you know what I mean? Real things that are real to them. Not that, you know, having fun is not real. But I think it's just an evolution happening subject-wise as well. I mean, certainly like Anderson's lockdown, I feel like is an amazing example of exactly that. We're just like immediately responding to protests. Like that record came out so fast. Was it of the moment.

There's no excuse. You all have studios at your house. If you don't know how to work, if you're an artist and you don't know how to record, at least for a garage band something, you're slacking. Because this is an opportunity to be able to get it out faster to the people, faster than ever before. You know what I mean? Or something. Figure out a way to just be a part of the conversation now, not a year later during album cycles.

Yeah. I just want to ask you one more question about your craft and how you approach this. Your writing spans so many different genres and eras, as we've talked about. How do you think about adapting what you do when you're coming into a session to sort of match what the vibe is going to be. Like if someone's going to be like, all right, we're doing that 1870s thing, how do you change versus like, hey, I want to do that new jack swing thing versus like, okay, we're just going to do some like super contemporary trap kind of vibe.

Well, it's very interesting because it just is being a good listener, right? So understanding. And also I've always been good at being the middle ground between the label, the management, the artist, and, you know, all of those different things. So I'm understanding what the label needs from you, what the artist wants to do. and that middle ground between making sure that everybody is going to be excited to push this record because everybody's on the same page, right? So when I go into a session, it's always like, you know, first of all, therapy.

I ask that artists, how you doing, who you loving right now, who you hate right now? Like all of those different, every artist that I've worked with can understand that the process, and that's why I say tailor made, is because it's tailored to you. You know what I mean? Whatever your emotions are, your thoughts are, and I think that a little bit of my acting background comes into play when it's like you're getting into character, right? You're getting into character and today you're this person and there. If your heart is broken, so is mine. You know what I mean? If you're freshly in love, so am I. It takes empathy. It takes being a good listener and also just being

a student of your craft. You know what I mean? Because I always say this. Yeah, you can do any type of genre you want if you're willing to take the time to become greater, whatever it is that you're doing. or to find those things. Like if I was going to Nashville and trying to write for Dan and Shay, but I was still doing trap cadences or only, you know, a certain thing, that's not being fair to them. It's wasting their time because you didn't do your research. You know what I mean? So I think, you know, it's really an exciting thing to be able to say, wow, I understand what you're saying. I'm going to make sure that they understand what you're saying. And in the most genuine way for you. It's a fun game. Like, it's like you've got to get through the, reach through the, you know, rings of fire

to get to that bullseye every single time. The metaphor that comes to mind for me is it's kind of like somebody has walked into a giant university library and they're like, I kind of want to do this thing and you're on the other side of the desk and you're just like, all right, here are the exact books that you need. We're going to go to this exact passage. We're going to put this thing together and we're going to help write your paper. Yes, that's exactly what it is. And it makes it so it's never boring.

I can't imagine, you know, only doing like one type of music. You know, people you still always ask that. And I'm like, I'm such a curious person and I love to learn and I love to collaborate. And so I just, I'm really enjoying this time where it's all, we're in a melting pot in the music industry right now. And it's extremely fun, you know, it's a great time to be a musician right now. Oh, Taylor, I love your energy. I'm glad that you're, it's so clear you're enjoying it. I don't know how you work so hard.

hard. It blows my mind. This episode of Switched on Pop was produced by me, Charlie Harding, Nate Sloan, and Bridget Armstrong. We're engineered by Brandon McFarland, illustrations by Harris Gottlieb and social media, Abby Barr. Our executive producers are Nashat Kerwa and

Hannah Rosen. We're a member of the Vox Media Podcast Network and a production of Vulture. If you liked the smooth sounds of Philly Soul and Quiet Storm, we're going to be posting some of our favorite tracks in a playlist that you can find on Twitter, on the Instagram at Switched On Pop or check out our website,

www.switchdownpop.com. Next week we'll be chatting with some more really wonderful songwriters. Teddy Geiger and Dan Wilson will be joining us to break down Teddy's new song, Love Somebody. It's going to be part of On Air Fest 2021. I think you're going to really enjoy this conversation about how to create effective, creative collaboration. And if you want to watch that conversation live at On Air Fest. The tickets are free and open to the public.

You just go to onairfest.com Some of the most wonderful podcast, other audio people, great folks in culture, music across the board. Check out On Air Fest 2021. Hope to see you there. And until then, thanks for listening. Attention Spotify. Has arrived on the new Google Jasmine Absolute of Carolina Herrera,

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