Switched on Pop - Song Camp 2: Electric Boogaloo! (with Alex Tumay, Wolftyla, Nicholas Petricca, Grace VanderWaal)

Episode Date: August 11, 2023

Part two of the secret world of song camps looks at the different roles in a songwriting session. There are producers who sit behind a console desk or computer and record, arrange and craft the instrumental and track the vocal. Often they double as engineers who use their technical knowledge to select mics, set up signal chains, and ensure the best recording. Then there is the topliner, a singer who generates melodies on the fly, throwing ideas at the instrumental, looking for the best hooks. Often the top liner is also a songwriter who crafts chords and lyrics to fit the topline melody. And then there is of course the artist who performs the piece.  These roles aren’t always clearly divided - most musicians have multiple skills. But for the sake of understanding how each role is essential to creating a song, we asked four musical luminaries to embody one of these roles and break it down: producer/engineer Alex Tumay, topliner Wolftyla, Songwriter and Walk the Moon frontman Nicholas Petricca and Artist Grace VanderWall. This conversation happened live at the College of Performing Arts at The New School as part of Anti Social Camp 2023, the largest song camp in the world that is working to revive to the NYC songwriting scene.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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It's free for iOS users. Welcome to Switched on Pop. I'm songwriter Charlie Harding. This is the second part of my look inside the secret world of songwriting camps. In episode one, we learned about the history of song camps and went inside a session to see how the sausage is made. In part two, I'm sharing a conversation I hosted the College of Performing Arts at the New School as part of Anti-Social Camp 2023. It's the largest song camp in the world, and it's working to revive the New York City songwriting scene. My goal for this conversation is to examine more closely the roles that each person fills in a session.

There are producers who sit behind a console desk or computer and record a range and craft the instrumental and track the vocal. Often they double as engineers who use their technical knowledge to select mics, set up signal chains, and ensure the best recording in the studio. Then there's the topliner, a singer who generates melodies on the fly, throwing ideas at the instrumental, looking for the best hooks. Often the topliner is also a songwriter, who builds chords in the live. lyrics to fit the top line melody. And then, of course, there's the artist who performs the song. I asked four luminaries to embody each one of these roles and break it down. Here's my conversation with producer-engineer Alex Tumay, Topliner Wolf Tyler, songwriter, and Walk the Moon frontman Nicholas Patrika, who you heard in episode one, and artist Grace VanderWall. So each of you

fill many roles in the songwriting process, but today I want to artificially put you into specific roles. So we're talking about producers, engineers, topliners, songwriters, performers. You know, all of these roles can bleed together. But today, we're going to isolate them to see if we can maximize what we can learn from each role. So we're going to begin with Alex Tumay, who is a New York-based engineer and producer. He worked his way up through studio internships and wound up as the head of engineering and tech at DARP Studios, where he met Metro Boomin, which led to countless collaborations. He has worked with artists like Ti, Travis Scott, Young Thug, 21 Savage, Sontagull, and Donald Glover, among many others. So, Alex, as you're going into a producer engineering

role in a session, how do you prepare working for an artist for the first time? Especially, like, in the beginning of my career, I learned actually one of the main people I worked for was a producer, Ben Allen. He always said, people don't care when you're starting out who you are. They don't want to know you. They don't want to know anything. They want to see how prepared you are. And so every session I would bring a mic for every kind of setup I needed. My first recording session ever, I knew I was working with a sax player, but he only wanted to produce on his laptop. But I set up drum mics, guitar mics, bass. And he made a whole song using everything in the studio just because I was prepared. And I think knowing the person you're working with, and being ready to

do whatever they want as an engineer or producer is really important. So what should the role of the producer engineer be in the room? For me, like, especially like starting off, I'm always like a fly on the wall kind of reading the room. And I try not to like speak too much right away. And like day one, everybody would be like, you were so quiet. And like day two, I just won't shut up. And it's like, it's because I know kind of like what's going to fly and what's not. It's like you don't want to like be too vocal and starting to like make it about you because you're not, it's a service job. You're there to like, make something cool happen.

And the only way that happens is if everybody's comfortable, and the second you start to make people uncomfortable, the vibe's just gone. So it's always like, I'm always asking questions and like trying to get to know the person first. And then like day two, it's like, okay, now we can like have a lot more fun and like, I don't know, like a conversation about everything.

What are the expectations about how much of your own vision you're bringing to the room and how much you're just adapting to what's happening? I think as like an engineer first and foremost, I'm responding to like whatever the energy in the room is. And like when there seems to be a void, that's where I like put like the producer hat on. And I'm like, okay, it's time to fill this void and time for me to like put a little bit more of myself into the record. And like in the beginning of my career, I did a lot of songwriting sessions. We did like an usher song camp in Atlanta where it was like two and a half weeks of just like every different producer coming through. and like one of the sessions, a producer came through

and they thought I was like the main producer with all the beats and they were like, what do you got for me? I was like, nothing. How'd that go? We were sitting there for a minute and I was like, what do we do? Like we should do something here because they're waiting. They're going to come through like four hours

and be like, where's the song? While we're waiting for his producer to come in, he starts beatboxing, singing guitar parts, and we made harmonies to sound more like a guitar, distorted it. ended up using that on the record. It sounded great by the end of it. Like the producer came in, like,

replaced some of the beatboxing with, like, actual drums. We kept a lot of the original stuff. And, like, it was a crazy, stressful session, like arranging, like, fake drums to sound like drums and fake guitar to sound like guitar. But, like, it's one of the situations where, like, you kind of just got to make the best of it. And it actually ended up sounding like something cool

because you were just ready to make it work. Do you have any specific qualities you feel make a great producer engineer or a songwriting session? I feel like I did try my hand at being an artist or being in a band and doing all that stuff. And I feel like I'm not great at starting from zero, but I am really good at starting from like 80%. And being like, okay, this is an idea. Let's finish it. This is what we could do to make it 100%.

And I feel like that's like my best quality as like an engineer. It's like I see the finish line as long as you give me the starting point. That's a magical quality. I think a lot of people like can take it to 80%. That last part is very hard. Yeah, I mean, it'd be nice to be able to start to start at zero, but, you know, I'll take 80%. So producer engineer role. We also have a session, have the top line. And I want to introduce Wolf Tyler, who grew up in Queens and is based in Manhattan. She's worked on songs for artists like

Megan the Stallion, LMA, and in 2020, released her debut EP, Wolf in color that blends R&B and K-pop into her own style. Her second EP Trustfall arrived in March, and amongst her many talents as a songwriter and performer today, I want to specifically talk to Will Tyler about the top line. So why is the top line so essential in the songwriting session? I feel like the top line in the song is so essential because that's what people dance to. That's what they remember. So I personally love to start off with just melodies. I think the melody for me, when I hear something on the radio, it's like, can I remember that jingle? And then from there, after the melody, I love to write on top of it.

How do you know you have a great top line? What are the qualities of a great top line? When I leave the session and I'm still singing it as if it's not even my own, then I'm like, ooh, that's fire. And then also, I always love to have people that I trust and I love and value their opinion in the studio. So if they're like, oh, that's the one. Sometimes I'll have like imposter syndrome.

I think it happens to all of us as like creatives and artists. So if they're like, yeah, like I think that's the one. I'm like, okay, so I'll just keep on kind of pushing with that idea. What do you feel like you need from your collaborators to get the best work out of you? I think I need just honesty, support, and just being open when holding space. I think music for sure, like when toplining and just being in the studio in general is a really spiritual process, at least for me. So I just like to make sure that the environment's always just feel safe. Yeah, it's one of the more vulnerable parts because you literally just have to spit out random things.

Yeah. It might not always be pleasant. We might make sounds that are unusual. Especially if you're collaborating with like another artist and they have a certain style. Like I always love for them to open up that conversation before even just throwing top lines at them. But really just opening up the space of like, hey, like how has life been going? Like what kind of mood are you in? And I think from there, you get a lot of.

ideas just flowing. And when it's with a songwriter and an artist, things just become really comfortable in that way, too. What about the stage in a session? You know, oftentimes people are shooting the breeze for a while, may play some music. How much inspiration do you need going? Like, does there need to be a backing track? Does there need to be, what is like the right amount and not too much so that you can freely improvise and find melodies? I think when I'm working with producers, I usually tell them, you know, don't put on something that you might. You I think that I would like to get on, just put any type of track on. And then from there, I think inspiration-wise, like, I always love to save in my notes,

just one-liners. Any times that I run out of ideas, I always go back to my notes of things that I might feel like I could kind of grab inspiration from. I also use a lot of my Twitter drafts. Wait, wait, wait, wait, what? The tweets that I don't use, the tweets that I don't push out into the world, I always just save them. So I kind of use it in that way too.

And then I also have a lot of just saved ideas in my notes, like the voice note app. So I'll like sometimes like listen to them a little bit and somehow try to implement it on until whatever beat that they're using. What do you think it is about having Twitter drafts that turns into good songs? Like that's that's very, sounds unusual to me. Yeah, really? No one does that? I would never turn anything.

I tweet into a song. What is there in a draft? I like to keep things very private. it. So there are things in the heat of the moment that I don't know if anyone has ever posted and deleted. I am like a huge post and delete person. So I was like, you know what, let me just start writing things and then saving it. And I have literally probably over 200 plus Twitter drafts that I'm like, I'm so happy that I have not posted and tweeted those things because someone will definitely screenshot those things. But somehow they have really formed into really great

song ideas or hook ideas. There's something about those things that we want to post and delete where you're operating in perhaps the most uncomfortable, vulnerable place. It makes sense that maybe it doesn't work in a short number of characters, but if you expand it out into full song, you can explore that uncomfortable emotion, that gray space. How do you approach toplining for somebody else? I approach toplining from somebody else by opening up a conversation with their feeling first. I also do like research on who I'm going into the studio with and making sure that I know

what kind of songs they came out with just to like make them feel comfortable in that way too just because again it is a really vulnerable process. So I think I would have them tell me what feeling that they're feeling, what they ideally want to talk about. Some people go on the student and they say, hey, I just want to write a hit. How do you respond to that? I'd be like, okay, let's try to bounce back some ideas. So we'll brainstorm some ideas, some topics may come up, something relatable. So like love, pain. What else is relatable?

I don't know. I just feel like love and pain. But I feel like that is the ultimate pressure. Like, let's just make a hit. Right. Right. So how do you translate going from, all right, and then we're like, all right, we got love, pain, big ideas. Do you have any techniques that you like to use to get to like the more meaningful

of emotion? I don't know. When like an artist says that they want to write a hit, that is where I kind of like tilt my head and I'm like, oh God, okay. Like that is a really high expectation. But I think what anyone would kind of consider a hit is like if that artist themselves loves it, then I think even just having the conversation of being really transparent being like, yeah, like you want to hit. But like let's really tap into like what you want to talk about. And You go into therapist mode. Yeah, like going to therapist mode, exactly. That's what I do.

And I think that has been pretty successful, at least for me. I feel like it's a good transition to go from top lying into the songwriting process. And I want to feature Nicholas Patrika. He is the leading voice and founder of the pop rock band Walk the Moon, which emerged from Cincinnati, Ohio, with their first hit Anna's Sun in 2012 and took over the radio in 2014 with their song, Shut Up and Dance. He also co-writes with other artists, including Kaigo, White Clapshan, Madion.

Nicholas, what are the qualities of a great co-writer in a session? Like jawline. Yeah. Six-pack. I'm not making it. Eight-pack, if you can manage that. Hi, guys.

Hey, y'all. Nice to see you. What's the question? Answered. What do you want out of a co-writer? How do you know? How do you know? that you found a great person to write with. It's kind of like on tour.

They say that tour is like 10% music, 90% hang. And I think that creating a fun environment can be really important and can be a skill actually to hone, you know? What do you do? Do you bring a ball pit? Like, how do you make fun? I don't know. You know, it's a little mysterious because sometimes, you know,

just different personalities are going to mend. meld or not in different ways. But I think just, I think just being open and curious, kind of like everyone's been saying so far, just like coming with an open, open spirit and, and responsive, you know, yeah, I just think of curiosity. I think of just being, like, present, present to what's alive in the room. So you've got to start things off. You're having fun. You're vibing. But at some point, you need to get to work and you're writing a song. How do you know when you sort of cross that line? And it's like, all right, we're going to focus and work really hard on this thing. Yeah.

I'm usually the one who, like, wants to jump in right away. And maybe I could be more in the hang a little longer to get people comfortable. I keep losing track of the question. It's that red eye. I just just flew in. Seriously, help me. Yeah, like, what are the signs? Okay, so you like to jump right and get to work?

Yes. But when do you know amongst your other collaborators that, okay, this is the moment that we focus on. that thing right there. I think like creating conversation, creating a space where anyone in the room, but especially the artist can speak about maybe what's alive for them, what's going on in their life.

I know for me, when I'm the artist, I try to lean into, even when it's a little uncomfortable, I try to lean into sharing whatever has been on my heart because there's just so much juice. I mean, we're just writing songs about life, right? We're just channeling human life into some two or three minute magical things. So I think just opening that space and inviting that conversation.

Oftentimes we're entering into a songwriting session meeting a whole group of people for their very first time. Yeah, it's so weird. And you're saying you just pour out whatever's going on for you. How do you cultivate that capacity to, hey, random person? You don't want to do this on the subway. If you do this on the subway, it doesn't always go well. People will not want to sit next to you.

How do you cultivate being able to be open amongst people who you were meeting for the very first time to make a great songwriting session? You know, you just can't expect it to work every time, to be honest. Like it's, it is a strange process. Like, I'm going to go with two or three people I've never met before and do like the most intimate thing that I can think of. Like, you know, besides like sex and I don't know. I don't know. Maybe that's it. Like, is there anything more intimate than creating art with someone?

I literally, I don't know. Cross-country road trip probably, but I don't know. Maybe, maybe not. Like, it's really, it's really, really intimate. So for me, I feel like I can really pick up when someone has like a reverence for that. And it's not necessarily like something you do. It's a way of being. It's a context you hold, I would say, or a context that I, to make it personal, a context

that I hold is, you know, this is, it's a sacred space. And I want to, I want to serve. Like, where there, like, yes, where all. there to win. And really, but really my context is to serve. It's to serve the song that's being created. It's to serve the artist that's there and to serve the others in the room. And being in that space of like what, like what wants to be alive here and how do I support what's, you know, what, what wants to be created? Can you tell me about a time when it was going very poorly and you found a way to turn around the energy? It's kind of like being on a bad date and you somehow recover it.

maybe? Not that it was going bad. I was in a session the other day and there's definitely a, there you can get really far down the rabbit hole like on lyrics I find. Like I could, I could gibberish melodies for days, but sometimes lyrics, I'm just like, you know, you can, you can go around in circles and circles to try and nail the, the perfect lyric or even just nail something that works at all. And I could feel we, we'd spent, I don't know, 45 minutes or an hour on this one section just lyrically and it wasn't. wasn't going anywhere, which happens. And, you know, this isn't something so totally revolutionary, but we're just like, let's work on a different section, you know, like, let's jump to something

else. And that, suddenly there was inspiration there, and it informed the section that was tough, you know, so just taking, you know, taking your focus off, like backing up, I think, I think it's, it's an easy, an easy way to get stuck is just like zooming in really far. I mean, sometimes those details are really important. And I love to like get get like the tiniest carving tool and like, you know, get really, really specific. And zooming out can can help a lot. There's a, there's a, I was in a session with Sam Hollander. He's not here in the room, is he? Okay. But he's going to be here this week. He's an awesome, awesome guy, awesome songwriter. We co-wrote a song called Rise Up on Walk the Moon's last record. And he had a trick that I really liked that was, like, if you have a section

of the song and it's just like not working, like sing another song, like a popular song over top of that and like see where it leads you. Like sing thriller over top of this section and suddenly like, oh, like I forgot melodies can do this and like that sounds interesting over this chord. And, you know, you won't, you're not going to, it's like you're safe from plagiar, you're not going to rewrite really. It's just going to lead you somewhere different. So that's just, that's been a trick that I've, I've kept. What is your feeling about listening to music in the room and sort of where the boundaries of inspiration and the concerns of copying can, can lead you? How do you, how do you mitigate that? Well, are there any new ideas? I don't know. Um, so in a way, we're all safe because,

because it's like, you know, you saw the whole Ed Sheeran thing, like the second I heard that Eddurance song, I was like, oh, well, that's, that's, that's Marvin Gay. But it is still totally different, you know, it just, there's, there's an essence there. And I think that many, many days, you're probably going to write something or more than one thing that, like, reminds you of something else, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. I think, I think, I think everyone in the room can feel it when it's like, oh, we're just stealing right now, you know, you know, yeah, yeah, I think, I think it's, I think everyone can tell when it's, when it's, when it's too close. And also it's like how boring is that? That's like the least interesting thing.

Like nobody wants to do that. I think everyone wants to have just like a glimmer of reinvention, right? Something that's that does feel new and never been done before. Somehow, I mean, I just like praise, praise be to the gods that like somehow music feels new every time. I don't know how that's possible with 12 notes, you know? But that's that's a miracle. Okay, last question is sort of the same and opposite. When you're co-writing for somebody else, when it's not going to be you as a performer, how do you approach your co-write differently, trying to match whatever the vibe of that performer is? I think it's really important that the artist is sort of like the tip of the spear.

That human being is the one who's going to be performing that song, who's going to be going to radio stations at 9 a.m. and like singing this song. and it needs to feel authentic coming from their being, coming from their voice. And again, you know, the idea of being in service, I think it's just really important

to be in service to that. And if you get up against two ideas and you like them fairly equally, go with the one the artist wants. The artist is the one that's going to bring it to life. So their voice is uniquely important in the room for that reason. Attention spotifier. has arrived the new good girl jasmine absolute of caroline herrera

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. . . bar records. So let's transition to the role of the performer in the session. Grace VanderWall stole the hearts of the nation when she won America's Got Talent at just 12 years old. And went from singing on YouTube to collaborating with songwriting giants like Ryan Tedder and Greg Wells. She released her debut album just at the beginning in 2017. And today, she's going to share her experience as a performer in a songwriting session. Grace, you started writing songs I saw at three years old.

Oh, so dumb. No, I mean, people love to say that, guys. I was like making up little jingles. They were like, she's Mozart writing. No, no, no. What changed for you from being, you know, writing songs to yourself as a kid

to all of a sudden entering the pop songwriting world? What were some of the things that you weren't expecting to see that happens in a session different from how you wrote on your own? You know, it's kind of tough for me because I almost feel like I grew up doing this. I mean, I came off of AGT and was immediately signed to a label and they had this publicity plan for me, you know, because they wanted to push me. So they, like, threw me into writing sessions. So, like, I've been going to writing sessions since I was probably, like, 12 years old.

I remember I had only written that one song for America's God. It was, like, the first song that I actually, like, decided to write down. Everything else was I was just, I pretended. I was in a movie because I am very dramatic little girl. And anyway, I remember on the show, they were like, now you do original songs. Like, now this is your chick. So I was writing them before each performance. And I only had those.

So yeah, I don't really know how to answer that question, I guess. Sorry, it was a really shitty answer. That's great. As a performer, you've gotten to be in so many different sessions. What are the qualities that you want in your collaborators? I would say after just a while. of doing this. I think the biggest thing that you always have to remember is that this industry is such a privilege that we get to work creatively and we don't have to be serious. We're like

one of the only jobs that we can do that. So I think just have fun, become friends with the people you work with. And every single time when that happens, definitely good things come out of it, you know. What do you like about writing collaboratively with other people and what do you not like so much? Like when is it not working for you? I think we all have our safe crutches that we tend to fall into that you just can't control. Like I have a few notes. Sometimes when I listen to all my songs, I realize I kind of sing the same thing with like the same chords every single time. So it's always great to have someone else in the room that brings a refreshing mind into it where they, because their mind works differently than minds.

So like their melodies are wired differently. So I might say something. And then they might be like, okay, but let's do it this because this is what I'm hearing. And then I'm like, oh shit. Yeah, I like didn't hear that. Do you feel you need to protect that though? I mean, sometimes having your own melodic sensibility is really important.

Like I've studied ad nauseum the melodies of Taylor Swift and you can identify. similar moves across similar chords across all the albums and that creates an identity. Yeah, yeah, I would definitely, yeah, I would definitely say keep your identity, but I would also say probably the one thing you learn to like master in like, and like, it's not so pretentious in this industry, is to say no and to be chill with it. It's not really a big deal, but like pick and choose when you're like, yeah, no, I kind of like what I got. You know what I'm saying? and then like, but sometimes it is better.

And just, yeah. Do you ever, do you ever an experience in a songwriting session where things were going great and then they turned terribly? What are some of the things that can kill a session? I don't think it can turn terrible, but definitely sometimes it's going great and then you just, the song gets stumped. Like, I can't say how many songs have been really great

and we're like vibrate. Like, it's like we're in it. And then all of a sudden it's stale and the song can never be. revived. Like once it passes that threshold, like, I've had songs that I revisit like three weeks later, like, let's check up on that idea. You never can get it back. Like, it's just dead. But there's no other, yeah, I would say that's the worst thing. So it's not worth it to struggle through a thing, which is just a brick wall. I, I'm a giver-upper. I say, after a while, after a while, you got to just

let it rest. That idea was to be, you know, let's work on something else. Practically, when it's time to give up, what do you say and how do you keep going? I'd say let it die. Let it die. Like, especially when, because sometimes they can be really, even people I work with can be like, oh, wait, but really, I'm like, no, dude, there's no, there's no bringing it back. Is there a time that worked really well for you where the, like, kill the song and then something came up where. Oh, yeah. Something better always comes up. Or it doesn't. But do you have a specific? example that you can recall?

You know, I think sometimes it's just a good, sometimes it's almost like an exercise warming up because I would say most of the time that happens in like newer sessions or sometimes during lunch breaks you can make songs about like sushi rolls or something and like... Who would think that writing a song about a sushi restaurant

would be a good idea? Dude, I once started writing a song about a subway sandwich because I was eating it and we were just like riffing and then it turned into a song about like my childhood. it's like turned like very vulnerable. So like playing, I would just say playing around can definitely like lead to good places for sure. As the performer, what do you feel is your responsibility in setting the vibe of the room?

Do you have certain things you like to do to help set the stage? Yeah, I would say it was really interesting, you know, hearing you guys talk and and hearing how people in the room read energy. Because I would say as a performer, I definitely off the rip feel that. Like when I walk into a session of new people, I can definitely tell they're feeling out who I am as an artist. So I try to almost overcompensate and really let them know this is chill, this is fun. You know, I don't need 500 green M&Ms. Like, let's have a good time, be friends, you know. Do you have things in your back pocket ready to go?

Yes. What you were saying about the voice memos for sure. This week I have voice memos in my phone that I've been. been preparing. I was just in a taxi and I like came up with this song in my mind, but I was really embarrassed because I didn't want to be like, hmm, hmm, like in front of him. Like, come on. That's a little to you like, I'm a songwriter. And so I was just like, I was like, don't forget it, don't forget it. And I was just saying it over and over in my mind. And that's my story. And then I made a voice memo. So that voice memo is ready to go as something that might happen this week. Oh, yeah,

it's ready to go. It's locked and loaded. I'm excited. Maybe as a way of wrapping up, I want, I would love to hear from each of you one more time offering some word of wisdom about how to go off into the week, something that you can all bring to your sessions. It could be deep stage wisdom or could be very small and practical. But one thing each that you'd like to all share. And we'll start back with Alex. We'll go back through. There's a lot of songwriters in here. But from my perspective, it's always one preparedness and like being ready for anything.

But also like for me, I'm the like rock in the room. I'm there to make you feel more comfortable. So I feel like for anybody that's in my position, it's just make everybody feel more comfortable because it's your job to be like the safety, the safe area. It's like, this person's going to hit record, the music's going to sound good. And that's like the foundation for the session. And everybody else knowing that's the truth can then go and create. Don't bully your collaborators.

Don't bully and just be like the safest person in the room, I think, when you're the technical person, I guess. Thank you, Alex. Well, Tyler. I think if I can offer one piece of advice, this might sound so crazy. But as a topliner or even just a performer or anyone in the room, I've learned at least this week to do things outside of even just being an artist and outside of being a creative and a topliner. So I would say make sure you're really getting those experiences even outside of the studio

because a lot of the magic happens actually outside of the studio to them bring it in. Nicholas. Two things are present for me. One, something that Grace just said about just playing, being playful. I want to double subscribe on that. Like, you know, we were talking about create a conversation, create a safe space where the artist can open up and talk about, you know, maybe they don't want to do that.

And also, music is like just a bit of fun, you know? So I really have this vision that you come with like a bag of tricks and toys and yo-yo's and like juggling. I know this is not true, but this is what I'm picturing. Spiritually, yes. So playfulness. and the other thing. The other thing is also switching up the energy.

It really, like, whether it's like working on another section or walking outside or, like, putting on a stupid video, you know, YouTube video or something, just like switching it up and just like refreshing, like hitting refresh is, is, it's, it can be priceless. Yeah. Yeah. Physical movement's very important. You all are going to be working in small spaces in New York City. So get up, move your body. It's important. Totally. Totally. Grace.

I would say just keep a like, keep it fun, have a good time with it, and respect every dimension of the music. It's all part of a great song. So just hear people out and I don't know. We're privileged to be here. So have a good time. Thank you, all. Will you please join me and say thank you to all of our guests. I really appreciate it. Alex, Nicholas, Grace, Wolf Tyler. Thank you very much. Switched on Pop is produced by Raina Cruz, edited by Art Chong, engineer by Brandon McFarland, by Iris Gottlieb, community management by Epi Barr, an executive bruised by Neshachkarwa, or a member of the Vox Media Podcast Network, and a production of Vulture.

If you miss part one, go check it out anywhere you get podcasts, and on our website, switchedonpop.com, where we have some really fun merch, we got t-shirts, we got mugs, we've got funny hats with all kinds of music innuendo. Again, you can find all of that at switchedonpop.com, and we're on social media at switched on pop. Join us again on Tuesday when we'll be discussing the mid-life crisis of two of the biggest artist working today. And until then, thanks for listening.