Switched on Pop - Summer Bummer (with Commotion’s Elamin Abdelmahmoud)

Episode Date: August 5, 2025

Every music critic seems to agree: 2025 has no true song of summer. Last August, Teddy Swims’s “Lose Control” dominated the charts. This year…Teddy Swims’s “Lose Control” dominates the charts. What’s going on? Why is there no new summer song to unite us in collective listening, and will there ever be again? Elamin Abdelmahmoud, host of the CBC’s daily culture podcast Commotion, joins Nate and Charlie to discuss the dearth of seasonal bops, and suggest some possible contenders for sleeper summer hits, from the soundtrack of the anime film KPop Demon Hunters to the latest from the Haim sisters. Despite the moribund status of the Hot 100, there is no shortage of great music to be found in the dog days of summer if you’re willing to listen closely. More Check out more music commentary from Elamin and Commotion, like their dive into Bruce Springsteen’s unreleased albums, or their dissection of Bieber’s latest with our very own Reanna Cruz. Songs Discussed HUNTR/X, EJAE, AUDREY NUNA - Golden  Tyler Childers - Eatin’ Big Time Haim - Relationships Ravyn Lenae - Love Me Not Amber Mark - Sweet Seratonin Sly and the Family Stone - Thank You (Falettin Me Be Mice Elf) Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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It's free for iOS users. Welcome to Switched on Pop. I'm musicologist Nate Sloan. I'm songwriter Charlie Harding. And today we welcome a very special guest, the host of Commotion, a daily pop culture podcast from CBC. It's Elamene Abdel-Mamud.

Woo-hoo. Hello. Thanks for having me, pals. So glad you're here today, Elamine. We're big fans of commotion, and we're not just saying that. to pad our inevitable visa application. You'll be welcome anytime.

And we're thrilled to have you here to discuss a topic that seems to be everywhere in the music media discourse right now. Let's call it the summer bummer. For instance, the Guardian has a headline. The Song of Summer is dot, dot, dot, dot, nothing? Global News. Shouldn't we have heard about a song of summer by now? The National. Why no one can agree on the 2025 Song of the Song of the Summer.

Summer. Time Magazine. The song of the summer is dead. Thank God for that. Ooh. That's rough. That's by our friend Taylor Grumpton. And your own CBC Kids, Elamene says, is there a song of the summer yet? The internet says no. Okay. So there's a lot of concern about this development. Where has the song of the summer gone? Why is there no song of the summer in 2025? Is it a good thing or is it a bad thing? first of all, let's understand where this is coming from. If we look at the Billboard Summer Charts, which is a thing, they have their own, like, Song of Summer chart, we find some songs that don't feel particularly new.

For instance, Chapel Rhone's Pink Pony Club, that's number seven on the Billboard Summer Song Charts. That song's five years old. That song is eternal. That song is actually going to remain on the charts. They took a vote on it. It's going to stay on the charts when they're 35. years, no one can touch it. It's not going anywhere. Not mad. What about number six,

die with a smile? You remember this one from Bruno Mars and Lady Gaga? Can I give you a theory, Nate, on Die with a Smile? The theorize away. I don't believe that any human being has ever heard die with a smile. I don't. I think that song was made for bots and by bots. And they're having a great time listening to the song over and over again. It has helped with the chart position. I'm yet to meet a real-life person who's like, oh, you know that song, Die With a Smile from Lady Gaga and Bruno Mars. Like that just, it hasn't happened. I think that with a smile is maybe a sciop. I'm not entirely sure, but that's my theory. This song was released last summer. Yes. And bots seem to have been listening to it ever since. Yes. So the bots have been busy.

And the songs that are bubbling up this summer don't maybe sound like the traditional song of summer. They're down tempo and sparse. Like one we discussed on our pod last week, and Elamene, you recently discussed on Commotion as well, a song from Justin Bieber's latest album, Swag, Daisies. Throwing pedals like, do you love me a night? Head is spinning there and they don't know when to stop. Shoots it forever, babe, did you mean it a night? A great track, but maybe not the anthemic, sing-along, dance floor, party spectacular that you would expect from a quote-unquote song of summer. So let's take the temperature. Are you in agreement

with this dire prognosis about the death of the song of summer? Does this ring true to you? Elamine, what's your take? My take on this is that the people want to feel unified. You know, like we want to sort of experience that like we're all living on the same planet, listening to the same songs. And as much as we talk about like the way the streaming is sort of like fragmented our listening experience, the song in the summer is like one of those invitational moments where we say, Well, at least we all know that in common. At least we all kind of live in the same world as that. And I think the contrast this year to last year is especially dire because, like, this time last year, we had Brat.

We had Cowboy Carter. Not like us was already out. Yep. Sabrina Carpenter was about to just become the biggest. thing on the planet. There's something about drought compared to last year, which was a year of plenty, and actually so much of that year of plenty is still on the charts this year, because last year was an unusual year in terms of just like shoveling things into the

discourse that could become a song of the summer. I feel this anxiety is very real about wanting to connect, wanting to be together, hearing the same thing. Part of this anxiety might come from, I saw this Atlantic article the other day called American summers are starting to feel like winter. It's so hot outside that we have to stay inside in order to stay cool. And so perhaps this larger anxiety of a really hot summer has cooled down the capacity to find that summer hit when we're all out dancing together, if you will. But I do think this is an issue where if you look at the Hot 100, a lot of things on there don't feel representative of this moment.

If you're really into Alex Warren's ordinary, fine. But I feel like that's like a slice of listeners, even though it's been number one forever. Who are those people? I don't know. I don't think that Morgan Wallin and Tate McCrae is what I want is the song of the summer. And then you just have everything from last year. Shibuzi's a bar song. Luther from Kendrickon's, Billy Elish is Birds of a Feather.

These are the songs getting play. And they're all from at least a year ago. That said, I do think there are a few songs that have been bubbling up and maybe earning that title. All right. So whether the lack of a definitive 2025 summer song is due to the anxiety over our fractured society, or perhaps the continued hangover we're having from the riches of summer 2024, I agree, Charlie. There's more than meets the ear in terms of musical offerings this summer. And that is why we are going to go around this esteemed panel here.

and we are each going to share two tracks that we think could counter this narrative of the dearth of great music. Hopefully, by the time you're done listening to this, you'll have a playlist of six excellent summer songs and fighting off the existential malaise and dread and winterization of summer, et cetera. Let us start with our illustrious guest here, Elamene. What's the first song that you think people should be listening to this summer? I think it is not only my opinion, but the opinion of the charts that this song is unignorable. It's got to be the homies of Huntrics who are not real people, but they are animated characters from K-pop demon hunters. They're the lead central characters of that movie.

And right now, if you go look at the charts, yeah, you might feel a little down that Alex Warren is number one with Ordinary. But right there, number two, and just ready to edge him out of that spot is the song Golden. Come on. It is an absolute heater. It's also the big I Want song from that movie. And, like, there's a history, not a long history, but there's a history of big songs from movies, animated movies, making it to the top 10 of the Billboard 100s.

Frozen, let it go. That's the big sort of main character, I Want song. I think Adina Mansell made the top five. Colors of the wind from Pocahontas, problematic? Sure, but also, you think you the only people who are people. Come on, bang. And then you get Huntricks and this song, and my Instagram feed is filled, like genuinely filled,

with just like DJs who drop Golden on unsuspecting dance floors. And then the camera pans and the dance floor is losing it. And like, who doesn't want to hear that beat and that song in the club? I do. I certainly do. And it seems like people also want to. that. That's what makes for a song in the summer. There's a lot that is effective

about this track, even when you remove it from the context of a anime movie about K-pop stars who in their free time hunt demons. I haven't seen it, to be clear,

but I know Elamene is deep in the lore. We've gotten so many requests to cover the music from this film, and I see why, because it's so dialed in. I I mean, let's talk about text painting in the chorus of this song, right? When the music does the thing that the lyrics describe. Up, up, up with our voices.

And literally the melody goes up, up, up to these, like, stratospheric high notes. It's so satisfying. Yeah, I got to tell you that, like, to me, when you watch this movie, which you described as like, in their free time, they kill demons. I'm like, no, Nate, that's their main job. That's the main job. That's the main job. Okay.

is to protect their cover stories of their K-pop stars. But this is, I think, really crucial is that, like, if you are an animation company that is going to take on a culture like K-pop, and you're going to sort of properly say, you know what, you want to be in conversation with what's happening in K-P, they actually leaned on people in the K-Pop industry to make this. Like, the song has credibility. The song has producers who are established producers in the world of K-P.

And as a result, like, you don't listen to, to that song and go, this feels like an interloper. You're kind of like, oh, this is just a hit song. The fact that it functions perfectly as a part of a plot in a movie is like almost incidental and secondary to it. Like, I can't stop listening to the song. When I'm going to sleep, I'm just going to go, uh, that's every day in my life. That is what is happening.

Someone helped me, but also I don't want it to stop. Back in the day, I had a CD player that had an alarm setting where you could listen to a song the second you woke up. this would be a good contender for that role. I'm going up, bu, and you're like, all right, let's go. Let's start the day. Yeah, I'm in. A strong start to our secret summer 2025 musical playlist.

Charlie, can you keep it going? Yeah, I think that if not Demon Hunters, the absolute song of the summer is Raven Lennay's Love Me Not. Oftentimes the song of the summer is, a track that has had a really slow build and becomes defined by the moment that it finally breaks out. And that's what's going on with Raven Linnae. It's happened for so many other songs, but Love Me Not is a song that was released in May of 2024, like so many songs that find their footing on the billboard. It becomes a TikTok hit. It's soundtracked over 300,000 times. And it debuts on the Hot 100 back in April of this year at number of 81, but it has just slowly climbed up the charts ever since then. This, I think, really is the

breakout song, and it's exciting because, you know, Raven, she's a 26-year-old artist from Chicago. She's been releasing music for 10 years. She's toured alongside Siza. She's got co-labs with Steve Lacey and childish Gambino. And the song, I think, is special, too. It started out originally 10 years ago, an Anderson Pock track produced by DJ Dahi. And the song is, like, thrown into a locker somewhere and then she's working with Diji Dahi and he's like I got this thing I haven't been doing anything with it for 10 years what do you think she puts her voice and spin on it and we get this song which is both incredibly contemporary and a total throwback and I think that's what makes it work for this summer she cites influences from the Supremes Amy Winehouse to artists like

Steve Lacey and I think we can hear in that clip you play both the old and the new. On the new side, the whole song starts with this grainy, weird guitar loop, feels very contemporary. Then we get a barrage of heartbreak lyrics that feel like a text chain between two people falling out in a relationship. infectious melodies, giant vocal stacks, these weird backward drums. The structure of the song is very of the now. The second verse is its own melody.

It introduces a pre-chorus the second time through. But then, of course, the whole thing feels very throwback and old at the same time. It's got a basic Motown beat, a simple bass. And then this harmonic structure with these very classic chords, it reminds me if you're going to reference some kind of kind of like Motown, older thing, you gotta use seventh chords. You gotta use these chords that aren't as common today. So, you know, this song is like, that third chord, right?

Dig it. Nice. Creates all this lovely harmonic tension. It's something you would hear on a song, like, Build Me Up Buttercup. So it's got that same kind of like crunchy seventh chord thing that you'd hear in a throwback song. Harmonic progressions that are very chordal and, you know, harmonia. So I love what she's doing here. It's got something for everyone, the old, the new.

It's built up to this peak moment. I think this will be the song that will remember as the song of Summer 2025. Charlie, make a strong case for Raven Lennie, and the slow burn of this track suggests you're making a great call. It's a joy to listen to. I've been a fan of her since,

I think Free Space was maybe the first track of her. I love to see her getting this shine. I have a pick that is kind of in a similar bag, Charlie. It's the latest from one of my favorite Neo Soul R&B artist, singer, songwriter, producer, Amber Mark. It's called Sweet Serotonin. Ooh, okay. That song, the sweat is like glistening as you listen to it. This is a song for the heat.

It's got the simmering tension underneath it. I think because of the looped drums and the slowly building instrumentation, it's really taking its time. It's hot. It's sweaty. It's steamy. Amber Mark, man, this is an artist. I remember when we interviewed her many moons ago.

2017, yeah. Wow, 2017, when she was on the come-up, and we were like, this artist is going places. And ever since then, I feel like Amber Mark is doing the thing where she's, like, really stepping back, refining her sound, and then only dropping a new track. when the time is right. And if this is auguring the sound of the rest of her forthcoming record, like, I'm here for it.

This is, to me, a perfect summer track. Okay, so just to be clear, this song is not getting huge radio play, but for you, stylistically, it's doing the thing that you want in a summer song, and this sort of sole throwback thing is having a moment. And so she's catching a wave. I'm also really interested in the resurgence of those sounds.

Like, in many ways, pop music right now, golden, notwithstanding, I think, like, in many ways it feels like the 1960s, you know? And, like, maybe kind of explicitly so. Like, you have God on the charts, right? Like, Alex Warren, number one, but also Benson Boone, not that far behind. God is in the charts in terms of the conversation, but also this protest in the street, right? Like, the idea of, like, every music festival feels like itself is a part of a protest

you've seen a lot of Palestine flags at those festivals. And then, also at the same time, like, you're getting the researchers of these sounds. I think Jesse Murph has that song called 1965, the chorus of which is literally like, hey, I would give him a few rights if you would just love me like it's 1965. I don't know if that's a theme you want to necessarily go with, but there's like a looking backwards

that seems to be kind of bubbling up in terms of where pop is right now. Yeah. I had a term for this that has so far not made it out of the slack, but I'll try it out here and see if it's got leg. Tad bait. It has, not only does it have legs, it's going viral today. It's happening there.

Tad bait. Not full Trad, not full Tad wife, you know. No. But just a little hint of Tad. A signal, if you will. Yeah, a signal of Tad. You know what, though? Like, it also makes me think of that.

Brandon Lake. He's an out and out Christian artist, right? Forrest Frank, I think, is maybe another artist like that. Again, explicitly like in the CCM category, not even usually in the pop arena. Trad bait, it's got to get out of the slacken into the world because we need something to sort of pull all these energies together. I was like, there's a looking backwards that is happening sonically but also thematically. The people are yearning for some kind of return to that. So if tradbait is happening necessarily, you need the sound of soul music and protest music to counteract it.

Like, they are happening at the same time. Makes sense? Yeah. All right. Quick break. And then we're back with another selection from each of us. Maria, you have a podcast now and you need to start acting like it. What's the first step as a podcaster?

Well, you have to ask lots of questions. I'm Maria Sharpova and I'm hosting a new podcast called Pretty Tough. Every week, I'm sitting down with trailblazing women at the top of their game to discuss ambition, work ethic, and the ups and downs that come on the path to achieving greatness. I have a few pretty tough questions for you. Okay. Ready? Do not sugarcoat something for me. No, no.

No. stories and get valuable insights from top executives, actors, entrepreneurs, and other individuals who have inspired me so much in my own journey. Pretty tough is your front row seat to the women who have demonstrated the power in being unapologetic in their pursuits. I hope you'll join us. New episodes drop Wednesdays on YouTube or in your favorite podcast app. Round two of The Secret Summer hits Elamene. What's your pick? Okay, number two, this is the song that starts off. the album of the summer for me.

My man, Talo Childers, has been away for a little while. He comes back with Snipe Hunt. I'm delighted to have him. And then the very first song that you hear is this song called Eaton Big Time, and I swear to God, it took me an hour to get to the second song because I was like, hang on.

Tyler Childers is having the time of his life. I've never heard someone have more fun on a record. Come on. Yeah. Hang on. Nate, I know you're about to stop the music there, But may I beseech you to play just the first four lines of the second verse because there's a part where you almost hear Tyler burn out the entirety of his voice as he yells about the flexing on wearing a thousand dollar watch.

And he's like, this is a big enough flex for me. It's so satisfying to hear that I was like, start the song again. Every single time I get to the part, I'm like, oh, I'm not ready to move on from this song. So can we just play just that one of them? Come on I'm flexing because a thousand dollar watch he's fine enough flex for me

Had to Come on. Wow. It's unbelievable. I've loved Tyler Chil just for a long time. He will work with Rick Rubin to give you an album that is a band that is so tight

and so intimate and they're having so much fun on this record. I think something about Tally Chil to me is someone is so invested in, like, saying, country cannot remain stagnant. We have to sort of keep pushing it forward and inventing new ways for it to not feel like nostalgia porn all the time.

And when you press play on the record and you get that song, you kind of go, I don't know where we are, but we're an entirely different country, and we're having the time of our lives. Just for clarity, Eaton Big Time, is a deer hunt narrative wrapped in hip-hop braggadocia, about how awesome is it that I've made it and I've got cool watches. Like, I think Rick Rubin was the right producer to work with on this.

Exactly right. And also, the size of the brag is incredibly crucial. Because, like, when you hear him say, hey, have you ever had a chance to hold and blow a thousand fucking dollars? He's like, I actually don't need to spend Rolex money on a watch. Spending a thousand dollars on a watch is perfectly sufficient and is ground enough for a flex. He's both time it tells me, like, we don't need to flex bigger than this. And also, I get to wear a $1,000 watch.

Isn't that crazy? Which is, like, the perfect zone of a Tyler flex for me. Like, it's just everything that who he is wrapped up perfectly in this record. It's great. It's achievable luxury. Exactly right. Exactly right. I'm glad you had us listen to that moment where he pushes his voice to almost to the point of breaking.

It made me realize there's something a little bit punk about. his aesthetic as well. Yeah. There's this kind of rawness that is like part of the country tradition, but he also seems to be getting from somewhere else. And I don't know if it's punk or another style, but that willingness to just sort of lay your body on the line for the music, that's something that makes him pretty special, I think. Marissa Aramoss, the excellent country music journalist, profiled him for GQ, and they talked a lot

about this record. And one of the things that he talked about is just capturing this energy of being a a garage band, being a garage punk band, and saying, like, yeah, we play country music, but, like, how do we do it in such a way where it is urgent and it is vital and it's kind of bursting at you in a way, it's like, I don't have the option to stop the song halfway through. It's not available to me because it is an assault. It is demanding to be listened to, you know?

And it's one thing to say that. It's another thing to do it, you know? And he really does it. All right, we've got both K-pop Demon Hunters and Tyler Childers from Elamine. an amazing duo. Charlie, what's your second pick? I have gone on a major Heim relisten this summer.

They put out their fourth album called I Quit back in June. But rather than listening to the album, I decided I'm going to listen to all four Heim records in a row and see where it takes us. And here's what I figured out. The first two albums,

they were great. They gave us singles like The Wire off of 2013's Days Are Gone and Want You Back. and want you back, often something to tell you. But there's something about them that kind of misses the mark. I feel like they're overcooked and don't capture what we want from a band of three sisters. A band of three sisters, you want that quirky bond of three people who play drums altogether on stage at a festival.

The first two records are just very produced. They are fully cooked. And they really found something special on their third album, Women in Music Part 3 that launched during the pandemic. Songs like Summer Girl were a perfect summer song. It was sort of this throwback, Lou Reed sound. It was lo-fi. It was raw.

You could hear the sisters playing in the room together. You could hear their relationship. And I think that's what you want from this kind of band. And so on their fourth album, I quit. I think they've really continued to capture that intimacy. The album is all about letting go of relationships and expectations and anything that's not working for you. All three sisters were single while making the album and Daniel Heim was coming out of a long-term relationship. So that emotional reset really shaped the music.

And I think you can really hear it on their single relationships. Come on. What a jam. This is a song that captures both what you want from the band and the feeling of like summer heartbreak. The band is so perfectly produced. It captures the live energy of these three sisters. Danielle played all the drums live, but then they produced them and layered them. The background layers are like what feel like a home upright piano. The sisters call and respond in this.

this really nice way to Daniel's lead. The vocal reflecting on the fact that relationships are never going to succeed, she goes into these high registers that are frail and vulnerable. I think that this song totally grooves. It has fretless bass. It's not afraid to wear some old influences on its sleeve. And it's just like, this is summer driving music, especially if you're going through a summer heartbreak. This is the one. I'm not going through a summer heartbreak, happily married

two children, but I do remember what it feels like to have summer heartbreak as a teenager. This is that feeling. I love that record, man. I love that record. I love Down to Be Wrong. It's so good. It does the same thing, right? Which is like, you really can feel them all hanging out in the room being like, yikes, you broke up and now we got to write a song about it. And there's something, there's something like really genuinely, like deeply intimate about them being like, we're going to come together to reflect on the breakups that all of the sisters had to pull them together in this, which is like, it almost serves as a concept album that is like, here's an arc of a divorce or like a sort of a long-term separation.

Yeah. But it does it so well and so intimately that you're like, oh, I feel like I'm feeling these feelings like along with you. It's unbelievable. Right. It's not just the feeling of heartbreak. It's the feeling of, but my sisters got my back. Yeah.

And you're like, oh, man, I wish I were in that family. Yeah. Oh, they're awesome. We have had an amazing tour through the various offerings this summer. I feel like we've successfully countered this idea that there is no great summer music in 2025. In fact, there's an abundance of riches that can make us feel all sorts of different emotions. And as the lead host, have you saved the best for last? Well, I've gone a little off-piece.

One of the sadder developments this summer has been the loss of the loss of the last. of great artists who we love. Brian Wilson, of course, the Beach Boys. Recently, Ozzy Osbourne of Black Sabbath, and a musician who I haven't really had the chance to talk about much on the pod, but who's been incredibly influential for me. And in many ways, I think, like,

weirdly captures the spirit of our moment. It's Sly Stone, Sly and the Family Stone. Actually, you were talking about this a little bit earlier, Elamie. A lot of that unrest of the 1960s, And especially those like hot 60 summers, it makes sense that in a way we're reaching back to that sound when we live in such a volatile moment right now. And so I feel like going back to the music of Sly Stone, whether it's dance to the music or sing a simple song or everyday people or I can take you higher, these songs like speak to us in a powerful way

today. The one that I'll go with is, thank you for let me be myself, which, begins with one of the greatest slap bass lines in the annals of slap history. The song, Thank You, isn't just a great slap bass moment. It's often credited as being the first moment that people heard the slap bass. Really? Yeah. I don't think I knew that.

That slap bass, yes, is from Larry Graham, also known as Drake's uncle. What? Yeah. I had no idea. And this track, it's like this interesting mix. There's a little bit of like danger and violence in the lyrics, grinning at the devil, you've got a gun pointed at you, and then it's got this sort of celebratory chorus. Thank you for letting me be myself.

It's like simmering tension, but there's also something celebratory. This song, I've been listening to Sly Stone a lot this summer, and there's something about this music that just feels so relevant and urgent to our moment. So is this allowed? I'm going to go, I'm going to go reach back into the past and bring back the music of Sly Stone for my final pick.

There, I did it. I did it. It's my podcast. Who's going to stop me? First of all, not only can we not stop you, but as we've sort of shown, like it seems like the charts are reaching back to last year in terms of who's on the charts.

So you're like, hey, if we're going to re-reaching back, let's go back to Sly. You know, like, why don't we do that? I do think about, like, the first 30 seconds of dance to the music, to me, it sounds like a symphony. But it's like the most chaotic symphony you've ever heard in your life of just people competing for space in the most beautiful possible

way because there's just so much happening in that scream and the scream is trying to go over chords. And then the entire song is just like, why do we introduce you to the next instrument? What about the next instrument? What about this instrument? And there's something really, really beautiful about the fact that that's the entirety of the song. And yet, it's perfect. No notes. Just everybody demanding their own space. Like, no, no, no, let me in. Let me in. I can't think of a better note to end on. I'm feeling very optimistic about the state of the summer, at least musically in 2025, after this conversation, from K-pop to Raven Lanay, to Amber Mark, to Tyler Childers and Hym.

I mean, there's a lot to be thankful for, and there's a lot to listen to. And we've only scratched the surface. But this is leaving me feeling just a little bit rosier about. the state of the world. Elamine, thank you so much for joining us today. Oh my God. Thank you so much for having me. This has been a delight. Listen, the song on summer can be whatever you want it to be, as long as you're talking to your friends about it, because you got to stop waiting for publications to tell you who the song of the summer is. You listen to a song, and you go out there and you tell them what you think

the song in the summer is. That's the way that it was meant to be. So go out and yell at someone, go, like, listen to this. It should be the thing you listen to. It's the best. Beautiful. Roll your windows down and turn the volume up, people. Again, Elamene is the host of Commotion, the Daily Culture Podcast from CBC. We'll pop a link to that in the show notes. I've been listening to a lot of commotion recently. The Springsteen episode was brilliant. I definitely encourage people to go check out that one.

We'll be back next Tuesday with a brand new episode. And let Elamine go enjoy the fruits of Canada while we do our credits, Charlie. Ah, yes, the fruits of Canada. Thank you, you guys. Thank you again. Switched on Pop is produced by Rana Cruz. This week, edited by Lisa Suip, engineer by Brandon McFarlane,

illustrations by Arras Gottlieb, the music by Zach Tenario and Jossi Adams of Arc Iris. We're a member of the Vox Media podcast, Network and production of Vulture, which is part of New York Magazine. You can subscribe to NYUmack.com slash pod. We'll be back next week for the new episode. And until then, thanks for listening.

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