Switched on Pop - Taylor Swift Causes a PANIC!

Episode Date: April 30, 2019

When a listener asked us about the "sorcery" behind Taylor Swift's new song "ME!" we knew we had to investigate. And because the track features Brendon Urie of Panic! At the Disco, we couldn't resist digging into their concurrent hit "High Hopes." Along the way we cover baby talk, dreamy augmented chords, drumlines, and songs with exclamation points in their titles — all to explain why you can't get these two out of your head. Featuring: Taylor Swift featuring Brendon Urie - ME! Swift - Shake it Off Swift - The Way I Loved You Gustav Mahler - Blicke mir nicht in die Lieder! Shania Twain - Up! Panic! At the Disco - High Hopes Western Carolina University Drumline - High Hopes Check out two great pieces on "High Hopes," one by Top 40 Theory and the other by Rolling Stone article citing Flypaper's Dean Olivet.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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app at eater app.com. It's free for iOS users. Welcome to Switched on Pop. I'm musicologist Nate Sloan. And I'm a songwriter Charlie Harding. Okay, Charlie, today I want to start by reading you a tweet that we received from Travis Parker Martin. Hey, Switched on Pop. Can anyone explain why I didn't like the new Taylor Swift song during the first two verses and choruses, despised the bridge, and then by the time the third chorus hit, I was hooked on the song and instantly had to replay it. I feel like there's some sorcery going on. Dot, dot, dot, dot. End quote.

So I want to take Travis Parker Martin's query today about the sorcery behind the new Taylor Swift song, Me, try and break it down musically. First half, second half, we pivot to the collaborator on this track, Brandon Yuri of Panic at the disco to break down their song. High Hopes. That sounds wonderful. Okay, let's start.

I want to start right with the despicable bridge of this new Taylor Swift track. Okay? So we're just going to jump right to the bridge of this song. Sorry to say, but I hate it. Oh, okay. So you and Travis are aligned here. This is not a good bridge. No, I mean, it just sounds like a schoolyard game from a very mature artist at this

our top of their game. Yeah. Hey, kids. Spelling is fun. Okay. But then right after this moment, we get to the third chorus and this is the moment when for this listener, like he's captured by the song. He comes around. And I'm kind of with him. First time I heard this, I was like, uh, and to be honest, the more I hear it, the more it sticks. All right. So let's go from that despicable bridge right to this euphoric final chorus. Okay, so why is this song so catchy? What is the, the source? sorcery going on here to that you can go from a detestable bridge to an irresistible chorus.

I think the first thing is that, you know, this is, the song is compelling because it represents yet another step in Taylor Swift's sort of musical, personal, artistic voyage, right? Yeah, I mean, to be honest, the thing that I'm probably least interested in. Yeah, absolutely, but we got to get out of the way because that last record reputation was very dark, gothy. And now here we're like, it's all rainbows and unicorns and sprinkles. Yes. So this is like, it's smart, right?

You want to constantly reinvent yourself. It's your Baskin-Robbins album. Okay. So having gotten that out of the way, let's dig into the music. Yeah. Okay. And one thing that grabbed me right from the start here is actually something that we've talked about on our show recently.

When we did an episode about how streaming is changing the sound of pop music, We noticed that more and more songs start with something we were calling a pop overture. Right. Kind of like a foreshadowing of what's to come. Yeah. And we just listen to the chorus of this song. Check out how the song starts. This is the very first thing you hear.

A little overture. It's cool. I mean, let's spin it one more time because that went by pretty quickly. I like it. It has the same vocal characteristic as delicate. Oh, it does, doesn't it? Yeah. That sort of chorus.

choir effect. Yeah. And it sets you up, even though the first time you've heard this song, you don't know what's coming. It's like kind of embedding the central kernel of that song

in your brain from the very start. Yes. It's very smart. Pop overture. Pop overture. Okay. Now, another element that we've covered on our show before,

way back when we did this episode about DJ Khalid's song, I'm the One, which used this ancient chord progression, the 1645 chord progression, also known as the 50s progression, also known as ice cream changes. Oh, the Baskin Robbins.

Whoa, yes, yes. And this is just such a tried and true way to get a song burrowed into your brain. Use this proven set of chord changes. So it's not always easy to hear in the track, so I thought we'd spin it and you and I can play these chord changes on top of the Taylor Swift version.

What care are we in? I believe we're in the key of C major. All right. Ooh. Very, a very, I mean, a very vanilla key, I suppose. Okay, so let's try this. We'll spin the verse of this Taylor Swift song, and you and I can sort of overlay these chords on top of it.

Okay, fun. One, six, four, five. I'll do it with the chord names now. C, A minor. F major G major takes us back to C Beautiful Charles

Thank you I mean that is just the platonic chord progression From Stand By Me to Rebecca Blacks Friday That is the Just the most tried and true progression you can use

Yeah Okay but there's more here We've got like Such a matrix of sorcery To go back to the Travis Parker Marker Martin's original tweet. What else? Wordless vocals in the chorus. If you want to really like

burn a song into someone's brain, don't use words. Just use vowels. Just use vocalizations. Oh. Because that's so because that's so universal, right? It's beyond words. It's just like elemental. Ah. Okay. So this chorus kind of starts with like a stretched out. me, but then halfway through, it abandons even that initial consonant, and it just goes to E, E, E, E, O, O, O. I mean, it's like infantile, but not in a bad way, just in a way that we're like, oh, I get to be a baby again. All right, let's spin the E, E, E, E, O, O, U. I'm baby. I mean, it's like, it's Gougu Gaga. One more time. I love it. This vowel gibberish is really there to set up a rhyme with you, which is coming up.

Yes. Right. She rhymes. E. With you. You know, I actually thinking about it now, too, it's also, you know, is reminiscent too of like the vocalizations of other primates too, perhaps. So maybe it's not only connecting us to our own youth, but to our like deeper ancestry as well.

I think you're reaching, but. Anti-Darwinist. Direct your hate mail to Charlie Harding. While we're in this moment, I think we can segue to another thing that makes the song really sticky is that it seems to like reference earlier Taylor Swift songs as well. So if you're already a fan, there's a lot here that's just going to pull you in deeper. And I think that wordless chorus we just listened to is part of that because that melody, that's very reminiscent for me of another big Taylor Swift hit, which uses the identical melody line and also a wordless vocal

at the same place in the chorus. Oh. Shake it off. Shake it off. I think we get one more coming up. Nice fine detective. Thank you. So not in the same key, not exactly the same rhythm,

but the same melodic contour and the same wordless vocal. Yeah. So like maybe subconsciously even you're like, oh, this is, I like this already, you know? And she's known to do this, right? because we had done, I think it was our second episode where we identified.

She has these sort of melodic tropes that she'll use. And so she's known for reusing material to sort of connect you in between the different genres that her albums will play with. There's some sort of connecting tissue. Yes, totally. Like even as she goes from dark goth to unicorn and sprinkle fairy, it's like there's this connective musical tissue

that remains through each successive evolution. Speaking of, there's also lyrics that seem to come back around. Like in this song, we have the line about fighting in the rain in the second verse. A decade plus ago, she used that same image of fighting in the rain in her track, The Way I Loved You. Oh, I like country tailor. Yeah. I know, it's interesting to listen to them back to back like that.

you can really hear the evolution. But still, fighting in the rain, that hasn't changed, that powerful, almost sort of cinematic image. Right. You know, this actually connects back to that superhero theory that I have about pop music that I shared a few weeks ago. Okay. So when Taylor was teasing this song, she was going on social media and just posting the date

426. Right. And I thought maybe 426 was actually meant that she was, was going to be a lead character in Avengers Endgame, which came out on 426, which is completely absurd, I know. But I think that there is some relationship here. I feel like the Marvel extended universe. I like where this is going already. Which relies upon decades of interweaving stories is not unlike Taylor Swift's reputation.

and musical journey through all of these different genres. The thing that continues to maintain interest is not just new and good songs, but all of the connections, deliberate, hidden, whatever they are, or even if they're intuitive. Right, right. Those connections have this way of connecting our memory to this entire brand, artist, music, everything. So when we get these tried and true old chord changes that connect us to the entire history of popular music,

we have these melodies and lyrics which are referential of past things that we might not realize that are happening, but you put your little detective eyeglass up and you're going to find. And she's, of course, using all of the sort of contemporary songwriting techniques, pop overture and so on. It's like the things are staying new just as much as they're referencing the past. in order to create an entire narrative about an apocalyptic world ending pop music. Right. No, no, no. I was skeptical, but you actually sold me.

Like, the Marvel Cinematic Universe is equivalent to the TSU, the Taylor Swift universe. Right. And pop stars maybe are more and more beholden to do that to sort of build these worlds and bring you into them. In this world, I'm just sorry, is Kanye West? Thanos? Is that analogous? I think absolutely. Okay. Yeah, definitely.

There are sidekicks, you know, like she's done songs as Zane and like, you know, if you do all of the, all of the featured tracks, then I think it holds up. But I like, I like how you put it. There is a world building that happens, and which keeps people constantly guessing, is this the artist's personal narrative? Is it something imagined? Right. And that in between is where I think the listener's imagination film. in. And here we are talking about it and we're completely absorbed.

So check. All right. Now we're going to get a little meta, if you'll indulge me. Right? So we've already seen how the song has a pop overture, a 1645 chord progression, wordless vocals and references to past hits. But I think there's one other thing that can ensure a song's surefire success, that you won't be able to get out of your head.

and that's you need to put an exclamation point in the title. Because this song isn't just called me. It's called me. And in doing this, Taylor Swift brings a song into the pantheon of pop hits that use exclamation points. Really? And there's a surprising number of them that I will now share with you until every single person has turned off this podcast because they can't believe it. Okay. This actually goes way back, exclamation points. We can go like, ding dong, the witch is dead, exclamation point.

Zing, went the strings of my heart, the great Judy Garland track, exclamation point. Here's a nice one. Smoke, exclamation point. Smoke, exclamation point. Smoke, exclamation point. That cigarette by Tex Williams. Wow. An early anti-smoking country song.

Oh, really? Oh, yeah. Huh. Oh, yeah. It's a great track. Moving a little forward into the countercultural moment of the six. Cs, exclamation points abound, help by the Beatles. Of course, definitely, right.

Wait, did the album have an exclamation point? Oh, yeah. Okay, yeah. Album and song. Yeah. Stop, exclamation point in the name of love by the Supremes. Wait, hold on a second. That's an important exclamation point.

Yeah. Because stop in the name of love as opposed to stop in the name of love. Right. Oh, you're talking about like exclamation point placement here. Exactly. Yeah. No, and I mean, I'm being somewhat facetious, but like these songs have, the exclamation point is like a key part of the song, of the narrative, the musical emphasis of the song. Like, these aren't just arbitrarily placed here.

Absolutely. Let's keep going. Crash, boom, bang by Roxette. Danger. High voltage by Electric Six. And can't stop the feeling by Justin Timberl. Yeah, this is, I've seen people make jokes about this is her troll. moment because it definitely feels

like it's like a bad animated film song. Okay, but we're not even done because now we have a bonus round. Okay. These are, I'm awarding special exclamation point bonuses here. Like, songs like, oops, I did it again. Oh yeah. Okay, this is an exclamation

point plus ellipsis bonus. Oops, exclamation point, dot, dot, dot, dot. I did it again. That's a hefty grammar. All right, here's another one. The birds, 1960s track, what's happening question mark exclamation point question mark exclamation point that's a double in terra bang bonus so that's props to the birds okay what about this everybody wants some

double exclamation point bonus for van halen right there where where did the exclamation come right at the end everybody wants some double exclamation two but not three two but not three okay you want three yes all right dig lazarus dig triple exclamation point i don't know that's nick cave in the bad scenes oh yeah yeah okay let's keep going. What about you got to fight for your right parentheses to party? Exclamation point. Close parentheses. So that's an exclamation

point inside parentheses bonus for the Beastie Boys there. Interesting. So it's more important to party than it is to fight for your right to. Like I think you could put the exclamation point outside the prance in that case if you wanted to. No, no, you're totally right. But this is like this is really emphasizing the party. The party.

Yeah. And here's a bonus for the oldest exclamation point. I could find, oh, exclamation point, Susanna. by Stephen Foster. Yeah. Going back to the 19th century. And finally, I've got a romantic exclamation bonus point.

This is for the Mahler song. Blika me not in the leader. Of course. Look not at my songs. Really? Yeah. It's like saying like, don't look, like don't read too closely into this. Huh.

Which is hysterical because that's exactly what you're going to do. It's like when someone says don't look. What are we going to do? Okay. It should be over, but it's not. We have round three. Okay. Is dedicated to a single artist who is the undisputed champion of using exclamation points in songs.

Any guesses? The band exclamation point, exclamation point, exclamation point? Wow. That's a great guess. Which is how you say, is it? It's like, check, check, check? I think. Yeah, I don't know.

Uncertain. That's a great guess. Okay. But you're completely wrong. Okay. It's Shania Twain. Really? Yeah.

Okay, you ready for this? Yeah. Thank you, baby, exclamation point, for making someday come so soon. If you're not in it for love, I'm out of here. Exclamation point. These are in order of longest to shortest. Want to get to know you that good, exclamation point. I'm not in the mood to say no, exclamation point.

If you want to touch her, ask, exclamation point. It's a good one. What a way to want to be, exclamation point. All right, here's a good one. Man, exclamation point. I feel like a woman, exclamation point. Two points. Here's another one.

Whatever you do, exclamation point. Don't, exclamation point. I'm going to get you good, exclamation point. Waiter, exclamation point. Bring me water. You're making these up. Most of these are on a single album. Rock this country, exclamation point.

Kaching, exclamation point. Don't, exclamation point. Nah, exclamation point. And finally, up. It has the same exclamatory energy as me. I know. It's like, you're going to like the song. Like, you don't have, you get excited.

You don't have a choice. Yeah. Okay, so there's a lot of sorcery in this track, and there's one other important element here. This is not just a Taylor Swift song. This is Taylor Swift and Brandon Yuri. This is my favorite part about the song. Yeah, and it's smart.

You know, if you want to get the song into your head, bring in, like, another super talented collaborator. Not only that, someone who's really having a moment in the pop world right now. The lead singer of Panic at the disco has had a hit song for like over a year now. High hopes. So I want to take a quick break and then we're going to explore the sorcery behind that track. Great. Maria, you have a podcast now and you need to start acting like it.

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the view on immigration from the bottom up instead of the top down. That's this week on America Actually. Every Saturday in your audio and video feeds. Panic at the disco's high hopes is currently on the top 40 as of this recording. But this song has been slow burning for a long time. It was actually first written back in 2015. Oh, wow. At a songwriting camp in Aspen in a hot tub.

by four songwriters. Hut tub song machine. And then it slowly, you know, circuitously made its way to panic at the disco. And then they worked on it further. And then finally it was released in 2018. Yeah. And then through some very savvy promotion, getting it onto the adult contemporary charts. Wait, really?

Oh, yeah. That's the new way to score a pop hit if you're a more rock-leaning act. Now it's like catapulted to the top of the pop charts. That's so funny because I don't see it. hear that song as adult contemporary in any way because it incorporates so much truly contemporary music, which I think often the adult contemporary charts do not. Yeah. So anyway. So let's hear the slow burning hit high hopes. I like this song. It's really fun, right? See, I like Panic at the disco. I got turned on to them when they did an album called Pretty Odd. Oh, yeah. And they've been

around a long time. Yeah. But they did an album that was kind of like a homage to Sergeant Peppers. Oh, cool. And it has all this great orchestral work on there, which we have here. I love the string sections and the marching bands. It's really animated. We're going to get into all of that. Oh, I can't wait.

Yeah. No, they're a fun band. And they bring something different to the charts. This song is successful, too, in a way that's somewhat surprising because it's one of these songs written by committee. There's fully 10 writers and producers credited on this track. And yet it sounds really organic and natural. Yeah.

I think that's because of the nature of some of these collaborators. I want to just give a shout out. This is sort of the product of my Wikipedia journey this week, starting this song. There's four rad female songwriters on this track. Taylor Parks. I don't know, Taylor Parks. Me neither, but she is behind a ton of modern hits, including Seven Rings. Oh, wow.

Yeah. Ilsy Juber, apologies if I'm not saying that correctly. She's behind hits like the Mark Ronson, Miley Cyrus collaboration. Nothing Breaks Like a Heart. And she's the daughter of the guitarist for Wings, Paul McCartney's solo project. Oh, cool. Who else? Jenny Owen Young's.

She's this rad folk singer who also hosts a podcast called Buffering the Vampire Slayer. That's a great name. And then there's Lauren Pritchard, aka Lolo. a former Broadway star. She was in the original cast of Spring Awakening. Wait, this makes sense because this song is kind of Broadway. And she's featured on Panic at the Disco's hit Miss Jackson. So it's like this cool universe of like super successful modern pop songwriters and Panic

at the disco collaborators. Somehow they all came together to make a song that feels really authentic to me. Yeah. Okay. What else is going on here that like is making this song so effective for us? Lots. What do you got? Okay, I've got a few things that you mentioned earlier.

It has having to do with instrumentation. And actually, some of them relate to the Taylor Swift song we were just talking about, me. Like, here's a moment in high hopes where we get a beautiful little burst of trumpet. That is curious. When do you hear a trumpet? Especially in that, it sounds like a fanfare or something. Almost in counterpoint, they'll need vocal, wild trap high hats or how. happening in the background.

Yeah. It's like, that is cool. Speaking of Paul McCarney, maybe like a little Penny Lane-esque or something. But it's interesting. We also have a trumpet part in Me by Taylor Swift. Oh,

so it's sort of sequencing the vowel melody thing that she's done before. It's an echo of, totally, it's an echo of what she's singing. Yeah. You know I also notice listening to that clip. What's that? The piano isn't just doing your ice cream changes. It's also doing them in steady quarter notes

on a honky tonk piano just as they would have back in the 1950s. It's very, very heart and soul. Yeah, totally. What else? We've got this, you mentioned it earlier, like this sort of like marching band snare sound. That's actually something we also hear in Me. Kind of like that Marshall ratat-tat-tat snare drum. Yeah.

So that marching snare we hear in Me is also right there in high hopes. That is a like accuracy and drumming that I'm. I aspire to. And it really like snaps you to attention. Like you're in a, you know, military parade or something. Maybe it's a musical exclamation point. I mean, I don't think it's any coincidence that you can find an amazing performance of this song by the Western Carolina University drum line.

Wow. Yeah. Man, I never thought I would say this, but I should have done band. I mean, they make that, that seems like a lot of fun. That's awesome. But I don't know if that's how representative that is of the repertoire at large. Not only does it make it sound fun, it extends the rhythmic dexterity and improves it by adding all of these. What do you call that when you slow time like that?

I don't know. I think we need to create a term, possibly from the Marvel Cinematic Universe. Like time bending? Dr. Strange does something. I'm into it. I'm into it. We get these, but they're doing that. And it sounds like it's programmed as you.

alluded to, but it's not. No. And they're doing it altogether in time is an expert sense of being able to control time. I mean, hearing you say that, I realize there's a cool overlap between trap drumming and this drumline approach. They're both kind of very interested in bending time. Okay, so there's even more cool instrumentation going on here. As you mentioned earlier, we have these gorgeous orchestral strings.

Love it. It's very George Martin. For me, that's like strawberry fields. It's cool. Yeah, it becomes like almost another voice in the song. Because it has this like call and response characteristic. Yeah, there's all, there are these caricatures that are in the music. Oh, I love it.

And then finally, there's one other really cool surprising choice here, an acapella final chorus. Like, that's very stark. Naked even. Yeah. Maybe you'd expect like one line of acapella and then they'd bring the beat back in. But they do a whole half chorus right there. It feels a little Broadway, doesn't it? Yeah, it is a little Broadway.

You see like the whole, like everybody's standing in a line like arms up. I mean, let's let's keep that in mind when the jukebox musical version of Panic at the disco comes out because someone is going to owe you some royalties. Now we can get even a little deeper into the, the grain of the musical material in this song. To end this analysis, let's dig into my favorite section, actually, of the track, which is the pre-chorus. It's really cool.

I think it's well described by our friend Asaf Perez of the blog Top 40 Theory as having this kind of dreamy quality. And that's a really nice break from those marching snare drums that we hear elsewhere in the track. It really does serve. of as a, yeah, as an almost little pallet cleanser before we get back into this high moment.

It's so, this song is so dexterous. Yeah, that's nice, nice vocab too. Oh, thank you. Continue, please. I remember someone noted about all of the songs of 2018, how in top 100 popular music right now, harmony is not as privileged, perhaps, as rhythm and texture. Sure. tamber. But this song

used an inordinate amount of chords and there were people that were very exclamatory about all of the different chord changes. I think it uses like eight different chords or something. Yeah. One of the songwriters called it the eight chord wonder. The eight chord wonder.

Which I don't want to at all get into a line of argument that suggests more chords or less chords is good or bad. But just that this This song, I think, does an incredible job of taking us on a journey that is both musically, incredibly complex, but also somehow really coherent. Like the theme of high hopes feels like it exists throughout. That little bridge section is almost like a little dip in the roller coaster before we go way back up high.

It's all in the pre-chorus, you mean that we just listen to? Yeah, the pre-course. Sorry, yeah. And so I guess I'm really impressed that they're able to have so many writers and also so many sections and so much instrumentation, so many chords, and yet it still holds together. Well, I think that's not just about the quantity of chords, but the quality of chords. And let's zoom in even further. Let's check out particularly one chord in this progression.

It's the second chord, the one that you hear under the lyric, don't give up. So let's listen to this pre-chorus one more time and really focus in on that second chord. Oh, it's dramatic. It feels like something in like a James Bond intro. So what is that chord? It's a rare sighting. It's like kind of an endang, almost like seeing an endangered species of chord in the ecosystem of pop music. And it's called an augmented chord.

I thought it was an augmented chord. Oh, high hopes. Augmented core. Oh, okay. So what is an augmented chord? Let's just break it down really quickly. We're very used to hearing like a major triad, you know. That's the backbone of so much popular music.

But an augmented chord makes one small revision. It takes the third note of that chord and it raises it up just a half step. And then it creates this new sonority, which all of the sudden is like dreamy and mysterious. It's what you hear often when someone like wakes up from a dream in a movie. or something. It's got this, I don't know, it's hard to put into words, but it has this mysterious, dreamy quality

that's really effective in this bridge. Well, that's why I noted, of course, on augmented chord, the song is high hopes, and what the augmented chord does is it takes that third note, and it lifts it up into a place that is, frankly, unstable, and needs to resolve to somewhere because you can't stay up in the clouds forever.

Totally. So the pre-course goes, Mama said, don't give up and we get that augmented chord it's a little complicated I mean

it's really like you said it feels like it's reaching towards something and then on complicated does you play the minor four chord yep okay a little mode mixture

on the word complicated very cool if you've listened a lot to the show one would know that my favorite chord in all of chords is the minor four

can you play what a normal four chord progression sounds like and then the minor four chord progression. Right, so here's the pre-chorus with a, the major four of the chord that you would expect. It would go, Mama said, don't give up. It's a little complicated.

That's a little bright. As opposed to it's a little complicated. Ooh, and it's so much more sorrowful. Yeah. So here's the ending of the progression with a major four. And here's the ending of the progression with a minor four. I love how it shows that the, the colors of chords can say so much because that is the most sorrowful and sweet and

it's a bittersweet chord. Totally. Wow. So we've ascended up with our augmented thing into high hopes into dreaminess and then descended down into somber sonorities. What a beautiful... There's a lot going on in this track. And it's cool because I think you put these songs side by side, Panic at the Disco,

High Hopes, Taylor Swift and Brandon Uri's, me. They're each doing similar things. They each have like, you know, trumpets and snare drums. And they each kind of burrow into your brain. But I think at the end of the day, I think you and I would rather listen to high hopes. I do prefer high hopes. And I wonder if that isn't because of these little details

that are kind of surprising and kind of different. And even though this is like a guaranteed super pop smash, it also has these weird little elements that probably play into Panic at the Disco and their larger aesthetic, which is one of like weirdness and this sort of wild carnival, unexpected style. Right. And if we think back to the first single off of reputation. Right.

Look what you made me do. Ooh, look what you made me do. Ooh. Look what you made me do. That song, when we broke it down, has no melody in the chorus. True. It's spoken. Yes.

And I think really did play with the expectations of where Taylor Swift's career was going, this feels definitely like a safe landing into bubblegum land. The song, me, is immediately, as I said, like when we get to that third chorus, as our listener has noted, like, it's burrowed into your ear whether you want it to or not, and you're just going to hum along. It's successful in that way. We had another person on Twitter who said, this is, this song is great. It does all the things that I've ever learned on Switched on Pop, right? Including some other things like the rule of three, the ice cream changes. Oh, wait, has Taylor Swift been listening to our podcast?

Obviously. But, you know, I think sometimes we could be seen as sort of distilling pop down to like a secret formula. Right. Like a song has to have certain characteristics. And sometimes maybe we'll use those different elements as a ploy to narrate a show so it all holds together. The reality is, though, a great song can't just hit all the marks. In a certain way, for me, the song Me actually just kind of like, check, check, check. It does all the things. Yes. Just right. And it's catchy in that way. Like, it works. But I prefer high hopes because not only does they sort of hit all of those marks, but it also skews them. It brings in new things.

It's curious. Yeah. It's less of an exclamation point and more of a dot, dot, dot, perhaps. Yeah. And so both are fun songs. I don't mean to say one is bad about my preferences. I could listen to High Hopes over and over and over. I think we're going to see some more interesting material off of the rest of Taylor's album.

Absolutely. And whatever it is will further her cinematic universe. I wonder which characters will be in there featuring Who Next? Switched-on-Pop is produced by me, Nate Sloan. And me, Charlie Harding. We're produced by Julian Weinberger. We are edited, mixed, and mastered by Brandon McFarland. Sarah Terry is our community manager.

Our executive producers are to Shot Keroua and Allison. Rocky. You can find more episodes on Spotify, the Apple podcast app, Stitcher, Radio Public, anywhere you get podcasts, there we will be. And you can chat with us on social media at Switched on Pop, both on Instagram and on Twitter. This episode came from a note on Twitter. So we really love the dialogue that we have there. Keep finding those wonderful musical moments in sorcery and share them with us. Shouts to Asaf Perez at Top 40 Theory and Dean Olivet. at Fly Paper for their savvy analyses of these tracks. We'll see you next week with more pop breakdowns.

Until then, thanks for listening.