Switched on Pop - The 1980s jam that gave Latto and Mariah Carey Big D*** Energy

Episode Date: May 31, 2022

If you've heard Latto's swaggering track "Big Energy"—and after 30 weeks on the Hot 100, you probably have—you may have heard a resemblance to Mariah Carey's 1995 hit "Fantasy." That's because both songs borrow a groove from the 1981 hit "Genius of Love," a genre-defying smash made by Chris Frantz and Tina Weymouth. "Genius of Love" was made when Frantz and Weymouth took a break from playing in the band Talking Heads to let loose at the Island Records studio in the Bahamas with the help of some reggae luminaries. The original "Genius of Love" mashed up funk, new wave, disco, and rap, capturing the diverse sounds of 1980s downtown New York City, shouting out their musical influences in the process. From there, the song wended its way through hit after hit, from Grandmaster Flash to "Return of the Mack." Why does "Genius of Love" continue to spark musicians', and audience's, imaginations forty years after its release? Tune in to find out. Songs Discussed Latto - Big Energy Mariah Carey - Fantasy Mariah Carey ft Ol Dirty Bastard - Fantasy (Remix) Tom Tom Club - Genius of Love Grandmaster and the Furious Five - It's Nasty Busta Rhymes and Erykah Badu - One Mark Morrison - Return of the Mack Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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It's free for iOS users. Welcome to Switchdown Pop. I'm musicologist Nate Sloan. And I'm a songwriter Charlie Harding. Songwriter Charlie Harding, we got an email recently. Can I read it to you? Please. Hi Switchdown Pop team.

Love the show. Okay. And at this point, I need to tell you that love is in all caps. Okay, I think that's important to know. Sweet. We should just stop right there. That's it. Yeah, that's the end of the message.

Okay, great show. See you next week. It's been fun. Love the show and would love to hear Nate and Charlie's take on how a song evolves. Specifically, I'm talking about Lotto's Big Energy, which sampled Mariah Carey's fantasy, which in turn sampled Tom Tom Club's genius of love. Are these songs cousins, children, super fans, inspired bys? I'm interested in both the journey of this specific sampled melodic line in the process of

interpolating sounds to make new things. And that email is from listener Leah Sutherland. I love it. Me too. And we've been talking about samples quite a bit. I mean, we did a whole episode last week devoted to breaking down the samples on Kendrick Lamar's most recent release, Mr. Morrell and The Big Steppers. Last summer, you did an awesome breakdown of City Girl's Torculator. It's a fun format. Thank you, Charlie. But is that awesome in all caps? Truly awesome. Okay, thank you. Yeah, I feel like this is an endlessly interesting topic because in all of these situations, I think we see when you sample a song, you're not just taking the music, you're taking all of the cultural history, all of the emotional valence,

all of the collective memories that we associate with that song, and you're re-inscribing them. So I almost feel like we might want to make this a recurring segment. Call it, say, the story of a sample. Let's do it. I love it. Okay, let's kick it off with the song, Big Energy. by Lato, which like all good songs in 2022, begins with a chorus. I mean, bitch, I could be a fantasy.

I can tell you got big, D energy. It ain't too many niggas that can handle me, but I might let you try it off the energy. I love that sample. I love big energy. I remember hearing it for the first time when Lato debuted just a part of the song at the MTV VMA Awards in 2021. And I immediately went online to hear the whole thing

and was so frustrated that I had to. wait for her to release the whole thing a few weeks later. But once it finally came out, it just slowly rose up the charts and has become now one of the biggest songs of 2022. Yeah, it's a slow burn hit that as of this recording has spent 30 weeks on the Hot 100. Pretty impressive. We'll get to the sample, but first, Charlie, I think we need to establish something. What is Big Dick Energy or BDE? Go. I will politely decline. I know, that was me. That was me. I didn't prepare you for that, but I just needed to see your expression, which was, sorry, listeners, you can't see, but it was pretty priceless.

Let's go to Lato herself for an answer here. Quote, BDE is for both genders, or all genders. It's basically just this confidence, this strong aura that no one can tell you, you're not the shit. You are the shit. It's about believing in yourself, how you walk, how you talk, just carrying you. yourself like the person that you believe you are, Charlie. That's what BDE is all about. I feel like you could write a whole self-help book about BDE. That's a great next career move for Lotto, the BDE guide to life. I'd read it. Not only does it have this catchy chorus extolling the virtues of BDE. I also love this song for its post-course. It's a bot. I'll get ahead of myself here, but I instantly love this song for its play on the song Fantasy by Mariah Carey and turning it around and making it an even more aggressive, confident song.

And Lato wears the influence of Mariah Carey's fantasy on her sleeve. It's literally the very first lyric of the song. It's a reference to that. I could be your fantasy. I could be your fantasy. I can tell you got beat. So let's use that as our cue to spin the record backward to 1995 and the release of Mariah Carey's fantasy. Takes me right back to middle school dances.

It takes me right back to one of the lowest moments of my career in Switched on Pop. Oh, yeah. What was that? If I'm being honest. Well, it was August 2020. It was our 90s music canon episode. That's right. Well, here's what happened, Charlie.

I know that song, but I don't know what it is or who sings it or any of the lyrics. Are you serious? See, even from my supposed best friend and co-hosts, see, I knew this. This might be the end of our show, honestly. All right, that is Mariah Carey's fantasy. Yeah, I know, I know. Now that you said it, I know that that's what it is. That is so deeply embarrassing.

So is this basically your redemption? From that moment? I mean, hopefully, here's a recent review of our show from iTunes. You presume to do a show on pop and you can't recognize Mariah's Carrie's fantasy in two seconds or less. Like, I need to exonerate myself here. You do indeed. All right. So let me try and make amends by celebrating the virtues of this magnificent track.

It begins with an ethereal introduction. I love that. You have these very 90s. digital synthesizers, and then Mariah comes in with her whistle tone that is a perfect match for that beautiful aura of digital cleanness. It almost sounds like a synthesizer itself. That is some masterwork. Like its successor, Big Energy, this song also has a fantastic post-chorus.

You know that synthesizer solo It's almost imitating that whistle note thing that she was doing earlier Yeah It has a sort of like G-funk Dr. Dre High whiny Moog sound But it's very reminiscent of her whistle tone Yeah, it's hard to tell where the synthesizers end And the Mariah whistle tone begins in this song

And then the other thing I love about that section is just I mean, it's like scat singing. It's like, how many people can pull that off, you know, and not make it sound really cheesy? But it's the opposite. It's so much fun to listen to. And then finally, I don't think it would be a Mariah Carey masterpiece without some incredible vocal ad-libs towards the end of the track.

And Charlie, you texted me that you've actually been practicing these and wanted to do it on the show. So go ahead now. Now's your chance. What are you trying to do to me today? Oh, maybe you have some voice, vocal issues or something? Okay, yeah. Okay, next time, next time.

Not only is fantasy stuffed with more ear candy than a musical pinata from start to finish. The remix of this song featuring Old Dirty Bastard also made important inroads in terms of bringing the worlds of R&B and hip-hop closer together. Mariah, go back like babies were pass the fires, old dirt dog, no liar, keep the fantasy hot like fire. Jump, jump, let me say you do the stop. Girls, let me say you shake your rock.

Merging the sweetness of Mariah's vocals with the kind of rugged sourness of old dirty bastards rap, that was a new sound, but one that would become incredibly influential over the course of the next decade and into the 21st century. And it's earned as well because if the Mariah Carey song is ostensibly an R&B track, the whole point of the show is built off of a sample.

And the sampling technique coming from the world of hip hop, she's kind of crossing it over into R&B and makes sense to feature a rap first in the remix. I totally see that. And not only that, but the original sample, which we're going to get to in part two of this episode, Genius of Love by the Tom Tom Club, which started this whole crazy chain. That is a song that also merged the sounds of pop and rock and hip hop and funk. So there's also like a legacy of a sort of cultural musical mashup embedded in this sample.

Just like Lato gives Mariah Carey a shout out in big energy, so does Mariah Carey give a shout-out. to the original sample here in the bridge of fantasy. We'll hear that right after the break. Maria, you have a podcast now and you need to start acting like it. What's the first step as a podcaster? Well, you have to ask lots of questions. I'm Maria Sharpova, and I'm hosting a new podcast called Pretty Tough. Every week, I'm sitting down with trailblazing women at the top of their game to discuss ambition, work ethic,

and the ups and downs that come on the path to achieve. achieving greatness. I have a few pretty tough questions for you. Okay. Ready? Ready? Do not sugarcoat something for me. No, no. No. We'll dive into their stories and get valuable insights from top executives, actors, entrepreneurs, and other individuals who have inspired me so much in my own journey. Pretty tough is your front row seat to the women who have demonstrated the power in being unapologetic in their pursuits. I hope you'll join us. New episodes drop Wednesdays on YouTube or in your favorite podcast app. Immigration may be Donald Trump's signature issue.

President Trump is now targeting predominantly democratic cities for ice raids and deportations. Dozens of protesters clashing with immigration and customs enforcement agents in Minneapolis Tuesday. We will begin the process of returning millions and millions of criminal aliens back to the places from which they came. But what we want to do in this space is talk about America and politics beyond the current president. So what do most Americans think about deportation? and border security, period. I think that Americans are definitely against the kind of violent displays that we've seen in the street from ICE. When it comes to the question of deportation, the answer is more complicated.

My sense is that people want border at the border. They don't like the idea of having no idea who's coming into the United States at any given time. The view on immigration from the bottom up instead of the top down. That's this week on America Actually. every Saturday in your audio and video feeds. Charlie, when we get to the bridge section of Mariah Carey's fantasy, there's a musical moment that kind of stands out a bit. It sounds like it's coming from a different song.

Yeah, that conga sound, it's almost like it's going through like a dub delay. It's in a different space than the song fantasy. The melody gets really high and kind of ethereal. This is a direct reference to the original track that Mariah Carey is sampling here, Genius of Love by Tom Tom Club, from 1981. So there's a moment in fantasy where Mariah Carey is not only grabbing the beat and the groove from Genius of Love, also kind of borrowing some of the lyrics and melody as well. Definitely, the boyfriend lyric.

The boyfriend lyric, yeah. This song, Genius of Love by Tom Tom, Tom, Club was a big hit back in the 1980s. First of all, TomTom Club, you familiar with these cats, Charles? I don't know Tom, Tom, Club. I always feel like music that is released just before you're born is the music that you know the least because, like, you didn't pick up on it when you were a little kid. And 1981 is just like in that window for me.

It's kind of a side project of the Talking Head, specifically two of their members, Chris France and Tina Weymouth, who were also a married couple in addition to being musical collaborators. This was their first project outside of the confines of the talking heads, the band, led by David Byrne, which pioneered the sounds of New Wave and funk in the 1980s. They recorded this song at the Island Records recording studio in Nassau in the Bahamas. And according to them, the song really came together in a very improvisatory way. Started with a drum and bass groove. They added some guitar, dropped that iconic synthesizer line on top.

And after two long days in the studio, the band stepped back and felt we might have a hit on our hands. As propulsive and infectious as the groove is, the lyrics here are all over the place. Like, we have that ode to the boyfriend that we just listened to that Mariah Carey picks up on. Yeah.

But listen to the very first thing that Tina Weymouth sings at the start of Genius of Love. What are you going to do when you get out of jail? I'm going to have some fun. What do you consider fun, Charlie? Fun, natural fun. Yes. A lot less fun than Big Deck Energy fun.

I think BDE is pure natural fun, actually. But that might be a discussion for another podcast. Okay, so we've got fun, natural fun. We've got ode to boyfriend. And then later in the song, takes a kind of different turn. and it just starts celebrating funk and soul and reggae musicians. It's appropriate. They're at the Island Records Studio.

Bob Marley was on Island Records. Okay. They're shouting out Smokey Robinson, Sly and Robbie, legendary reggae producers. We also get shoutouts to George Clinton, Bootsie Collins, Hamilton, Boehannon, the great underrated disco master and drummer. So it's not like genius of love has this narrative arc from a story of love and tragedy or anything.

It's kind of this stream of consciousness, celebration of love and music and fun, natural fun. The lyrics do feel almost improvised. Here's just on the top of our mind. Now, when this song came out, this groove captivated people. The track's co-writer Chris France remembers that when it dropped, he went down to Washington Square Park, and he just heard everyone listening to it on their boom boxes simultaneously. And he said he just had to sit there and take it all in, and it was probably the coolest thing he's ever heard in his life. Feels like that's almost the inspiration for the sample.

You walk by one boom box, you go, but-da, but-up, but-da, and you walk by the next boom box, It's butt up, but up, butt up, butt up, but up. It's just happening everywhere in the park. Like that picture. Well, Mariah Carey is a genius. She's a genius of love. Because she was listening to this song in a taxi, she says. Yeah. And she had this spark of inspiration. Wait, this could be the backing track for my next hit.

But she wasn't the first to realize the sampling power of this genius of love song. This song has a long history before. Before it ever gets Mariah, a long history after Mariah, like Tina Weymouth sings on the original track, there's no beginning and there's no end to the power of genius of love. Okay, so who else uses it? First, it's Grandmaster Flash and the Furious Five on their song, It's Nasty. Of course.

That one's fun. That's definitely an interpolation. That's a re-recording of the sample. Yeah, they're throwing a lot of sauce on top of the original there. It's got that funk bass. Some years after that and a little bit before Mariah recorded Fantasy, UK soul singer Mark Morrison sampled the drums of Genius of Love in his hit Return of the Mac. No way. Yep.

So you're saying that, bu, bap, that's the same thing. Yeah. Same drum groove. A few years later, Buster Rhymes and Erica Badoo pay lyrical homage to Genius of Love on their song, One. Get out of here. Even that synth line has the same rhythm. I'm going to do with Erica Baddew.

I'm going to have some fun. What do you consider fun? Fun, natural fun. I think what we've established is that BDE is really just telling us what natural fun really means without any euphemisms. So they're picking up on that fun natural fun. Yeah. So, Grandmaster Flash, Mark Morrison, Return of the Mac, Buster Rhymes, Erica Badu, Mariah Carey, Lato. Genius of Love has this incredible sonic afterlife through all these musicians referencing

different parts of the groove from the drumbeat to the synth line to the chord progression and the lyrics. It makes me wonder, Nate, if you were going to show off your amazing keyboard and songwriting skills, what piece of the song would you borrow from to make it a new? Great question, Chuck. Sorry, what were you asking? That is a really fun little chord progression to play over, incidentally. Yeah, I feel like it's missing some lyrics,

but I do like the jazz lounge interpretation of fantasy slash genius of love slash BD. You know, playing it now, it's so simple. Yeah. It's kind of remarkable. It's just two chords shuttling back and forth. E minor, up to G major. back

and then this six note synthesizer line that's it which makes me think that maybe the simplicity of it is what's given it that remarkable staying power

because it's so elemental in a way. It's one of those special loops where not much is happening and yet everything is happening at the same time such that you just want to hear it over and over and over again.

Let's return to Leah's question that kicked off this whole discussion. Okay. Are these songs cousins, children, super fans, inspired bys? Charles, I don't know if I have the answer here, but what it makes me think is how when you sample a song, you're not just taking the music of it, you're taking all of the cultural resonance. And in the case of genius of love, it's a very appropriate song because it's a song that was merging these different worlds together. It was made by these rock musicians from Talking Heads alongside reggae musicians at this island studios in the Bahamas. It was quickly

adopted less than a year later by hip-hop pioneers by Grand Master Flash and then continued to be reinterpreted over time. Retaining the original funk and spark of that groove, but adapting it to the particular kind of cultural valence of each day. decade, whether it's fantasy in the 90s or BDE in the 2020s? I have to say, I think you have redeemed yourself from that fateful episode where you failed to recognize Moriah Carey's fantasy. Fireworks, trumpet sound right here. Because I learned something new today.

Not only is this a wonderful story of a sample, but there is a handful of samples in history that are totally canonical, James Brown's funky drummer. You've got the almond break. You've got Apache. Pieces that have been referenced over and over again through the history of hip hop. And I'm sure many people knew this one, but this was new to me that this is kind of an icon of samples.

Yeah. It has so many webs of meaning that one can go down that anyone can kind of make it their own because it's just everywhere. And that's why I hope we someday get to cover all those songs that you just mentioned in this series because, like, Leah asked us at the beginning, A sample is more than just a sound.

It's a story. And when you can tune into that when you're listening to a track, I just think it's so much more fun and rewarding. So I guess that means we're taking requests. The phone lines are open. We got a phone line. Switched on Pop is edited by Julie Myers,

engineered by Brandon McFarland, illustrations by Iris Gottlieb, community management by Abby Barr. Our executive producers are Hannah Rosen and Ashok Karwa, a member of the Vox Media Podcast Network and a production of Vulture. You can find more episodes of Switched on Pop

anywhere you get podcasts and our website switch on pop.com we are waiting to hear about the samples whose stories you want to uncover at switched on pop on Twitter and Instagram and also while we're at it what's your favorite interpolation of genius of love for dying to know next week i've got something special for you Nate there have been endless stories about is tick-tock changing music but we haven't had a definitive answer until now speaking with two folks who have have compiled all of the data by hand to demonstrate exactly what is going on. It's going to be a fascinating story. You had me a definitive.

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