Switched on Pop - The b*tch of loving musical theater (with Bridger Winegar)

Episode Date: January 30, 2024

When it comes to musical theater, everyone has an opinion. And Bridger Winegar, host of the very funny podcast I Said No Gifts!, is no exception. In the paradoxical tradition of Bridger's podcast, Charlie and Nate have brought a series of gifts in the form of a sonic smorgasbord: a tour through musical theater's finest offerings, from Les Miserables to Spring Awakening. Check out Bridger's podcast I Said No Gifts! here. For more on movie musicals, check out this episode of Vox's Today Explained. Sign up for the Switched On Pop Newsletter Songs discussed: Brian Johnson, Gideon Glick, John Gallagher Jr., Jonathan B. Wright, Jonathan Groff, Skylar Astin – The Bitch Of Living – Original Broadway Cast Recording/2006 Duncan Sheik – Barely Breathing Thee Oh Sees – The Dream Liars – Mr Your On Fire Mr The Electric Prunes – I Had Too Much To Dream (Last Night) Ariana Grande – yes, and? Robyn – Call Your Girlfriend Randy Graff – I Dreamed a Dream Ali Stroker – I Cain't Say No Josh Groban, Annaleigh Ashford, Stephen Sondheim, Sweeney Todd 2023 Broadway Company – My Friends Frank Sinatra – Send In The Clowns Billy Bragg, Wilco – California Stars Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Support for this show comes from Odu. Running a business is hard enough, so why make it harder with a dozen different apps that don't talk to each other? Introducing Odu. It's the only business software you'll ever need. It's an all-in-one fully integrated platform that makes your work easier, CRM, accounting, inventory, e-commerce, and more. And the best part, O-Doo replaces multiple expensive platforms for a fraction of the cost.

That's why over thousands of businesses have made. made the switch. So why not you? Try Odu for free at Odu.com. That's ODOO.com. Warning, this episode of Switched-on Pop contains strong opinions on musical theater. If you were a loved one has a theater BFA. You may experience heightened emotions and defensive impulses. We welcome all angry emails and strongly worded messages. Thank you. Welcome to Switched on Pop. I'm musicologist Nate Sloan. And I'm a songwriter, Charlie Harding. And today we have a very special guest. We are Live in the studio in Los Angeles, California, with one of our favorite people, one of our favorite podcasters. It's Bridger Wieniger.

Oh, you too, I'm thrilled. I was telling you earlier, I love the show. Oh, thank you. I love listening to it, and now I'm here. It feels incredible, and I'm going to ruin an episode. We look forward to it. This is a long time coming for us because we are also big fans of your podcast. I said, no gifts.

I really appreciate that. Bridger, for those uninitiated, will you explain the concept behind your long-running hysterical podcast? Of course. I said no gifts. Well, it's led to my home being absolutely full of garbage because the show, each week a guest brings me a gift. Yeah. And for the most part, the gifts are useless items, and I haven't gotten rid of any of them. So my house is overflowing with gifts.

You have incredible comic guests, and they bring you things that you don't need. What stands out? Okay, some things that are very valuable. Weird Al brought a trophy from high school. So that feels incredible. Wow. What else have I gotten? And this isn't performative.

They actually... They're giving me the gifts. Well, I picked that up from his house. But, I mean, it's such an annoying podcast. Emma Thompson gave me some Scottish candy, which was very nice. I listened to that one. She's such a... I mean, she's...

Very delightful. An all-timer. Well, I can't promise that our gift will be useful, treasured, or... or even beautiful in any way. But we were inspired by your funny, endlessly entertaining show to bring you a gift, even though you are our guest. I'm so uncomfortable with this.

We have disobeyed your constant mantra, and we have brought you a gift, which Charlie will elaborate on a little bit. Seathing here. We have brought you the gift of musicals. Wonderful. You're both going to sing to me. Better yet, I have done a little bit.

bit of homework. Okay. And I've spoken with someone who knows a lot about your inner musical life. Oh, boy, who? My name is Jimmy Smagula. I am Bridger Weinerger's partner of almost nine years. And I'm an actor. I'm currently in the Broadway company of Spam a Lot, which is running right now on Broadway at the St. James Theater. And I've also been Charlie's voice teacher slash vocal coach, which was very fun, and I miss it. I wanted to chat with Jimmy because he knows your musical life very deeply. And he told me that maybe there was an area of music that we could help, help you grow a deeper love for, expand your listening, listen more deeply.

Okay, I'm very excited. He doesn't enjoy musicals. That's what's so odd, Charlie. He doesn't love Broadway in the way that I do. I'm in my eighth Broadway show currently. So I have dedicated most of my life to doing Broadway shows. He just doesn't like him. Oh, my God.

Well, I do have to push back. I will absolutely push back. He tells people this all that. He tells people that I don't like musicals and I don't like New York. And both of these things are totally false. I've never been in eight Broadway musicals. Okay. Yeah.

And I like to visit New York. Well, I appreciate this because I know live in New York. Nate has written a musical. That's right. Oh, my God. And I grew up in New York. And he grew up in New York. Two musical.

I wrote two musicals. Two. Continue. Okay. Okay. Well, there are many musicals. And Jimmy feels that there are a number of musicals that you don't enjoy. And we want to, we want to dig into this.

Yeah. This is a topic we've not really covered on the show before. Musical Theater. Yeah. The pleasure and the pain of the musical experience. So we're excited to get into this. I have kind of specific opinions. And I can't even really, I can't really vocalize why I feel they were.

the way about musicals that I do certain musicals. There's a sort of musical that I adore, and then there's another more modern type of musical that just absolutely kills me. Okay, great. Let's try to unpack some of these, and I want to begin with an example. Okay, your first gift.

He doesn't enjoy the musical Spring Awakening, which is a Duncan Sheik musical. He doesn't enjoy any of the music. How do I know this? Because I forced him to go to a production of Spring Awakening in Los Angeles and I, probably about seven years ago, and I still haven't heard of it. Okay, so I want to play you a clip from Spring Awakening.

Okay. Let's play The Bitch of Living, sung by John Gallagher Jr. Yes. Jonathan Groff. Okay. Those are the only people I remember from the show. And all respect to the performers. Oh, absolutely.

Yes. Okay, so here's The Bitch of Living from the 2006 cast recording of Spring Awakening. My entire body is blushing. I'm so the second-hand embarrassment. I'm feeling right now. What category of music is that? It's not a show tune. It's not alternative music.

Let's see if we can answer that question for you, but just before we do, can you give us just a little bit of exposition? You've seen Spring Awakening right now. The Bitch of Living is the fourth song in the musical, but can you give us a little context of what you do remember? What is Spring Awakening? What's happening? What is this song about? I mean, if this is the fourth song in the musical, by now I'm dying to leave the theater. I'm thinking how much longer could this possibly be going on.

I don't even remember. It's based on a play from, I don't know, like the late 19th century or something. Sounds right. Franz Vedekind, I believe. I would believe that. Frank, not Franz. And it's, I think about kind of like a sexual awakening, isn't it? Yes.

And then it's updated with this music that feels like. Yeah, there's still German, Austrian school children in their little, I don't know, knickers and blazers. And they all have, you know, German names, but they're singing these contemporary pop-pong... Like mid-2000s pop-punk songs, yeah. Written by Duncan Sheik of... Remind me what Duncan Sheik's big one was. His big one was barely breathing. Oh, yes, of course.

How could we forget? This is a very specific category of music. Yeah. And is that, what, 1998? I think that might be exactly when that came out, Bridger. Oh, 96, interesting. So he was kind of the vanguard of that sound. That song stuck around for a minute.

That is an icon of 90s FM radio. So, bitch of living that we just listened to, I hear as having a function within the show of setting the scene for these characters and their milieu, right? Like, this is what they're dealing with. They're angsty. They're youthful. they're discovering themselves. Like this sort of sets the table for the rest of the show.

And the tone for sure. And the tone. Yeah. Which part of that rankles you. The tone. Absolutely the tone. Which to me, and God bless Broadway, there's no way to make an edgy Broadway show.

Oh, interesting. You can put your back into it. You can do whatever you want. It is never going to feel edgy to me. So edgy is a word to you. It's not important to me, but it's just when you try and fail so completely. Yeah. Oh, okay.

So I'm catching that there's a disconnect between what the thing is trying to communicate, which is edginess, and that it does not sound. It just ends up feeling artificial. Okay. Artificiality. Yeah. This is one of your main gripes here. Yes.

The instrumentation always feels like library music of rock music, that sort, like, you know, it always feels like this approximation of rock music. But it's simply not. It's very corny sounding. And I feel like every show that attempts this, it sounds exactly the same. The drums sound the same. The guitar is just kind of this lame little guitar sound. It feels like bad coffee shop music.

Oh, and again, all respect to everyone. No, no, no. I don't dispute that characterization. And I think I know what you mean. It is rock music. It has all the... same instruments, the same patterns, the same timbers of rock music, but it's just played in this way that's a little bit studied and doesn't have the actual wild abandon and rebelliousness

of rock music because you can't do that in a Broadway theater because everything needs to be so precise in order to pull off this massive spectacle that you don't really have the freedom to actually play rock music at all. You have to do like you're describing maybe. It's like covering a song that doesn't exist. Yeah. And again, like you're saying, it's not their fault. Right.

But I see, it's not a space that allows for that actual kind of freedom and rage and right. Unhinged. And I should say, spontaneity. I'm coming from a place. Jim describes a lot of the music I listen to as sounding like you're having an MRI.

Actually, he described it like this. Oh, no. Here we go. I don't like a lot of the music that he listens to. Oh, God. He listens to a lot of alternative music. I guess you would categorize it as that.

And he really likes, you know, kind of angsty, you know. And I don't know who they are because he'll put them on in the car and I'll go, Bridger. It sounds like a mosquito buzzing in my head. There'll be some amp, you know, there's amplification just droning in the background. I'm like, where's the music here? When I have music on the car, he is 98 years old. It's crazy. Which is interesting because Jim has a great podcast himself,

a baby mouth. And a great theme song that he wrote and performed that's out of control. And it's all about him exploring the world of food, which for the majority of his life, including into adulthood, has been aversion to pretty much everything. And it's about exploring the world of food, talking to his mother,

and talking to great celebrities and other folks who bring him different foods. So where people might bring you gifts, people give him foods. But in your musical taste, there's this great division, it seems. And so you listen to mosquito buzzing music or MRI music. So what is it that you do enjoy? Maybe we can use that to help inform our conversation about musical theater that doesn't quite connect.

And see, that's a good question because I feel like that's half of the music I listen to. I feel like half of the music I listen to is kind of the music you would be buried alive to, taken into the desert, soundtrack to being buried alive. And then the other half is roller skating music, pop music. like disco pop, like fun, bright sounds, power pop, that kind of thing. So I feel like I have a pretty broad spectrum. Okay. So what's an example of a desert burial artist or song?

I listen to a fair amount of like garage punk OCs. Who else do I love? Give us a song that sort of just fits that example. I mean, from the OCs, I would say they have a song called The Dream that's like seven minutes long. I feel like it's a pretty good deserty piece of music Beto buzzing MRI

They're a little bit pan They're like A little bit of everything This rocks I mean what a song Okay love it You know I listen to the band Liars who do all kinds of things

But are fairly noisy These are like kind of Some of the modern stuff I listen to And then I listen to you know Like 60s garage Like the Nuggets compilation That sort of stuff I think that kind of

sums up the noisy stuff I'm listening to. This is adding up, though, because when you listen to Duncan Sheik, there was this concern of maybe some inauthenticity in the way it's trying to be edgy. And you clearly do enjoy truly angsty music. And I feel like angsty has a real flavor that feels bad. It feels like it diminishes what I listen to because I feel like most of the music I listen to is fun. What is the word?

Just rougher. Yeah. I think rough might. be a better, I mean, a rough, like, feels like it was recorded live, that type of thing. It doesn't feel fully slickly produced. Interesting. Okay, great. Yeah.

I mean, you are, I perceive you as a very confident person who is. Oh, Bob. Thank God. Who is well-rounded. So when I say you like any of music, it's not a reflection on angst that I receive from you. Sometimes we listen to the things which balance the thing we might not always feel comfortable showing out loud. I don't know. Interesting.

Okay, so texture. And you said you also enjoy. More, like, shiny pop music, fun. A beat. Do you have an example? Who do I really love within pop music currently? I love Charlie X-E-X. Co-sign. Beep, so let's ride.

Let's ride. Let's ride. I like that new Aria Grande's single. I mean, so much fun. I like Carly Ray Jepson. I spoke with Jim. I asked him about what things you co-enjoy. Right.

You both enjoy it. And he said, Carly Ray Jepson and Robin are two. Robin is not, I mean, like, that goes without saying. Robin is truly for everyone. I mean, and she, I just read a rumor she might be working with Charlie X-C-X, which is incredible. That's a fun rumor. But I like that sort of thing. I like Abba, E-L-O, that's like the 70s roller skating music I like to listen to, New Wave, all that sort of stuff.

Maybe we can use this to inform some of the conversation. We just listened a second ago to The Dream by the O-C's, and there's another song from the musical world about dreams. Oh, interesting. That we wanted to share with it. Oh, I can't wait. Gift, our second gift. I don't think he really likes Le Miz. I was on the tour of Le Miz.

I played Ternardier. I sang Master of the House. I can't really see him, can't see him sitting around getting down to Le Miz. How could I have a problem with that? The yearning. Oh. Unbelievable yearning that song. This was Randy Graff singing I Dream to Dream from the original Broadway cast recording of Le Mesa Rob.

No problem. No problem. So this goes back to a little bit of my problem with the other type of musical, which, and I don't know where lame is kind of lies within all of this within musical history, but there's like with the rock stuff, it feels a little bit like they're embarrassed of being earnest or like the, I like a musical that just totally owns being earnest and corny and being like, this is the show, this is, we know we're on stage, we're blowing it out with just emotion and earnestness. We know it's, you know, it's slightly. embarrassing, but we're not going to hide that in any way. When I saw Hello Dolly, I felt like I was at the ultimate birthday party. This sort of, I mean, that kind of thing I'm all about. What we just listen to, I actually do have a problem with it.

Oh, I can't wait. This is the man who's written musicals well, this is, whatever this lay miserable genre is, the operatic musical perhaps, because because I I haven't seen in a long time, but I think it's all through composed. It's all sung, right? Throughout.

Yes, I don't believe there's any just speaking. And it is, as you said, very earnest, very overblown, very dramatic. And this is what I cringe at, because what I love about musicals is the wordplay and the entendre and the witticism and the verbal dexterity and the creative rhymes. And this song has none of that. There's no metaphor. there's no subtext. It is like every line means exactly what it says

and all the music sounds exactly like the meaning of the words and so I this is what gives me secondhand embarrassment is listening to this. I mean that makes perfect sense and I think that's that entire show

which by the way Jim's aunt Rodi saw while Jim was in it saw him after the show and said I'll tell you one musical I'll never see again. Lay miss. That's terrible. To support Nate's, I don't know. Hot take?

I don't know. Discomfort with the musical. Okay, there we go. Distaste for the musical. You're saying that the lyrics are so on the nose. At the end, we have, I had a dream, my life would be so different from this hell I'm living. There's no subtext. So different now from what it seemed, now life has killed the dream I dreamed.

It's very literal. It's like a Google Translate lyric or something. But in a way, I can also see how it is refreshing compared to the bitch of living, where they do seem... I hear what you're saying, Bridger, because I think of that song, it's like, they do seem to be kind of getting off

on like, we're saying the word bitch. Totally, exactly. Let's say it again. Longs out of the house. That kind of thing. Whereas this is very... It has no pretense. It is very honest and direct.

And I get why people. And the music is stunning. And, like, I love it. But it doesn't move me. I did not expect this to go this way because we were bringing this second gift to you thinking that perhaps, you know, I was hoping we're going to unfold more about why musicals are not working for you. And yet now I'm learning something about my co-host. And everyone who loves musicals right now is just cringing and going to send us very nasty emails. You and I are both like being betrayed by people we know dear.

We know nothing about us. I feel like we should gang up on them. Yeah, exactly. We have to speak our truths, you know. I think that's important. And I thought this was a safe space to do that. It's not. Charlie.

It's a bad spot. Listen, we have more musicals to uncover. Okay. We have two more that we want to play for you. Okay, I can't wait. Support for this show comes from Odu. Running a business is hard enough. So why make it harder with a dozen different apps that don't talk to each other?

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That's O-D-O-O-O-O-com. Jim believes that there might be some musicals that you ought to enjoy more. Okay. I think the older musicals I actually think he would enjoy, like an Oklahoma, Rogers and Hammerstein. I feel like he would like those styles of musicals because they're kind of cozier and they're old-fashioned, and those are kind of two things that Bridger is.

He's cozy and old-fashioned. He's a cozy, old-fashioned woman. Finally, he says something true. Oh. I don't disagree. Let's... All right. Our third gift.

I'm really trying to keep this theme alive. I'm just... Just when I know she ought to give the spaces. I somehow sort of want to kiss and back. Love it. Love it. Allie's Stroker singing, I Can't Say No, from Oklahoma. Adore it.

I don't know why I haven't seen Oklahoma. I guess there's just never been an opportunity. Okay, so what's connecting for you here? I mean, it sounds to me... I love a movie musical, like an old 40s... 50s, and it sounds a little like that to me. There's, I mean, it sounds old-fashioned and like, it reminds me of a little bit of old country music

where you're going to hear fun turns of phrases, that sort of thing. She's singing with a twangue, we got some banjo, old-timey kind of. Right, and it's kind of corny. Okay, so, like, it's not trying to be cool in any respect. Yes. Not trying to be edgy. Right. You hate people who try too hard.

Try hards are your problem. I can't deal with trying. So we're in agreement Because I also You're on board with this? I adore this. Love Oklahoma. I like this musical. I like this song.

Maybe Oscar Hammerstein Who wrote the lyrics to this Along with Richard Rogers Who wrote the music. In general, is really good at Making songs sound like a character. You know?

Right. Oh, I love that. Like this sounds like this Her name is a What's her name? Ado Ato Annie, I think. The way it's, It's phrase like you feel like you're listening to her.

I love when she says, Charlie, do you have the lyrics in front of you? Yeah. The opening, which I didn't play for you. Yeah. Basically, her being told that, you know, be careful of men. They're going to get in trouble. Then she says, but when I'm with a feller, I forget. I'm just a girl who can't say no.

I'm in a terrible fix. I always say, come on, let's go. Just when I ought to say, Nix. When a person tries to kiss a girl, I know she ought to give his face a smack. But as soon as someone kisses me, I somehow sort of want to kiss them back. I'm not sure that this song stands the test of contemporary culture. It's a little bit of that baby it's cold outside effect has an age well. Let's let's, I'll let others pass judgment on that.

But I will say that line I somehow sort of want to kiss them back. I love that because it just, it sounds like a person singing. It's very, it's very conversational and it's very true to who she seems to be, which I, which is something. I love about this this type of old school musical. Right. Where every song

is almost like a color of the character. The character's color, basically. So no complaints whatsoever. All right. I mean, but again,

he's like, Bridger should be more into Oklahoma. At what point would I get into Oklahoma? Why not? I mean, I need to go see the show. There's some Oklahoma

fan group right now who's just like, seething. Absolutely screaming, lighting up Twitter. There's a good film version with Hugh Jackman in the lead as Curly that I

can heartily recommend. When was that made? Five, ten, between five and ten years ago. What? I want to say, yeah, maybe ten years ago. 1999.

Okay. 24 years ago. No, I'm sure about that. Time. That's okay. In my defense, he's ageless, so you can't really charge and date a Hugh Jackman production

very well. He's forever 39. It's amazing to go from Oklahoma to X-Men. I mean, the men can do it all. Or maybe X-Men had already existed. Don't know. We're not going down

this rabbit hole. We got to stick to the Unless there's an X-Men musical. We have to get back to... Well, actually, that's going to happen. That's good. We're headed towards an X-Men musical. Yeah, X-Men 2000.

So, what, man, the reason why you need to get into musicals is that your future career as an action hero depends upon it. That's very true. As a comedy writer. This is what's been going wrong for me. Yeah. There is one more musical that Jimmy really just wants you to love deeply and feels like, in your heart of hearts, this is the kind of musical

that everyone should get into. Okay, this is the final gift. Yeah, it's a final gift. And it comes from a very specific musical tour. Oh. I have to say, of course, anything, Sondheim. Because Sondheim is like Shakespeare. When it comes to musical theater,

he just completely changed the game. I think if you took like a song from Sweeney Todd and actually printed out the lyrics for him to read, I think he'd really appreciate it. Therein lies the problem.

What's that? I absolutely appreciate. And, I mean, Sondheim is obviously a legend, and I see why people appreciate it. But I want to be able to sing along with a song. And it's just, like, for the most part, the Sondheim show does not really offer that. Yeah. Because the lyrics are unbelievable and clever and interesting, but they're basically sing-speaking. Interesting. Okay.

I mean, and I'm also a very ignorant person, so. Will you read for me these lyrics, and then we'll see how they're performed? Okay. These are my friends. See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light. My friends, my faithful friends. Speak to me, friends. Whisper, I'll listen. I know, I know.

You've been locked out of sight all these years like me, my friends. Well, I've come home to find you waiting, home, and we're together, and we'll do wonders, won't we? Oh, okay. Well read. Lovely. Between Charlie reciting Oklahoma and you reciting Sweeney Todd, I feel like there's some sort of spin-off podcast where we just read musical lyrics. I would listen to that. Very good, dry monotos.

So you've just read lyrics from Sondheim's musical Sweeney Todd, the song, My Friends. Let's Hear the Performance sung by Josh Grobin. Oh, great. These are my friends. See how they glisten When this one shine How he smiles in the light My friend

My faithful friend When Jim and I were doing lessons together We actually sang this Oh you're kidding And you were talking about, you know You want something you can sing to And to be frank at the beginning It does start a little bit more spoken

and we've got a lot of vibrato. Josh Groven loves the vibrato. And as it builds, I think Jimmy wanted me to sing the song to really push the boundaries of the upper register of my voice because it gets, it becomes challenging to sing.

I can imagine. Yeah. I mean, and this, to me, like, I've seen Sunday in the park. What else have I seen? Into the woods, maybe? Into the woods? Into the woods.

Company? I've never, I don't think I've seen company. I think I've seen bits and pieces of company throughout. other mediums, but I've spoken to other people who definitely know more than me, and they're like, oh, I kind of agree. Okay. I mean, like, they lean more towards their other musicals as far as just, like, enjoyment factor.

Maybe not intellectually appreciating factor, but he doesn't have pop hits, you know. You're not going to throw on Sondheim. Right, right, right, right, right. Like on the radio. With the exception of Send in the Clowns. Send in the clowns. Oh, I mean, yeah, of course. And which had a funny second life in The Joker a few years ago.

A shame. But, yeah, but no, you're right. I think beyond that, I think characterizing, this song might be an exception, but yeah, characterizing his music is less sort of tuneful and catchy seems totally fair to me. There is this tension between what you want from a musical and the authenticity of pop music that you want. And Jim has a reason why he thinks that Sonheim is really the, ultimate musical theater composer. The thing about Sonam was that there was always a dramatic reason.

Right. But there was always a reason. It was never just because. It was never just to be difficult. It was never just to be fancy. It was never just to show off. The lyrics and the music always had a dramatic reason first and foremost. That's what's so brilliant about it.

That's what's so brilliant about it. And so in the context of my friends, Yeah. What we read so far is actually, and what we heard, doesn't really give us a lot of clues as to what's going on. Who are these friends? Okay, okay. And so let's go into why, what is the time doing to really work for this music? Who are you, the friends?

We should establish that. Well, our main character is Sweeney Todd. Right. Who is. The demon barber of Fleet Streets. His face was pale and his eye was odd. And he's just returned from his exile back home. Yeah.

And he steps into his studio. space. It's atelier. Starts recording the pod. Yeah. And when he first picks up his razors after coming back, after he was exiled for so many years, and he picks up those razors, and he says, these are my friends.

See how they glisten. See this one shine, how it shines in the light, my friend. And he knows he's going to get his revenge and slit throats because he's so mad. The underscoring goes, over and over and it's meant to make you feel just like that while he's singing, the uncomfortableness of that, the waiting for what's going to happen. Yes. I'm getting the sense that you actually enjoy theatricality.

Oh, I love, I love fancy. I love showing off. And this is very theatrical. The music is communicating so much, maybe in a way that it wouldn't work in a pop environment because it's like it means it's a little unpleasant. Of course. Sinister.

Right. I've got no problem with that. Okay. I mean, I just wouldn't put it in a playlist. It's kind of interesting. Building on what Jimmy was saying, can we listen to a little further in the song, Charlie? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

There's a moment I really appreciate that, that first. illustrates what Jimmy was talking about, the sort of fusion of music and drama when Sweeney Todd sings about coming home. Listen to that word, home. There's a harmonic shift that sort of signals this transformation that he's experiencing. You've been mocked out of sight all these years like me, my friend. Well, I've come home. Right there. Right there. New harmonic territory. And like you were saying, Richard, that's not something you do in a pop song.

It doesn't follow any of the beats of the podcast song because it's sort of like meanders and wends its way where it needs to go as the drama and the lyrics demand. Right. Which pop music doesn't do because no one wants to listen to that. You want like repetitive sections that you know exactly when they're coming and it's very satisfying. not to be sort of led on this dramatic journey that you don't know where it begins and ends. And it feels like the lyrics come first where pop music, it's basically the opposite all of the time.

A catchy tune gets hummed or whatever, then they fit lyrics into it. I'm having this enormous realization right now. Nate and I, as listeners, for our whole life, I think especially before doing this project, we're never lyric people. Oh, interesting. Lyrics don't stick for us.

Right. The prime example is we had to sing a song for a friend's wedding, California stars by Billy Bragg and Wilco. Oh, that's a lovely song. Beautiful song. So sorry, Stephen Abbey. We always had to sing through, I think, two verses and a chorus. And for I think at least a couple of hours, we were in the car with poor Whitney, poor Nate's wife, who basically was like, we're trying to sing this song and memorize it. Right.

Kill me. And we just keep getting the words wrong. And she's like, what is wrong with you? Like, lyrics do not sink in? We definitely messed up the lyrics going down the aisle. We were, I was just like, you know, when you're in the chorus and you're just sort of mouthing along, I was just relying on other people to sing it. In our defense, the song is challenging because it's, I'd like to rest my heavy head tonight on a bed of California stars. I'd like to lay my weary bones tonight on a bed of California stars.

I'd love to feel your hand-touching mind. This is just, now you're just exercising your own guilt and personal demons. I'd like to rest. I'd like to lay. I'd love to feel. He keeps sort of changing the framing. We could not get this. Everybody at the wedding knew it.

We did not. We had practiced it. So we don't listen to lyrics. Lyrics don't sink in with us. Musicals that have actually never spoken to me. I love going to musicals, but I'm not a listener of musicals in the background. I think that's because I don't really listen to. The lyrics aren't doing anything.

Yeah. A lyric has to be. really horrible for me to be like, I can't listen to this music. Like, I can listen to mediocre lyrics all the time if the music makes up for it. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, Charlie X-E-X we love,

who has a little of, like, I'm driving a car, room, room, and you're like, great. God bless, yeah, of course, that's all I want for her. The steering wheel. But, yeah, like, and I feel like, the older I get, the less I care about lyrics. I don't really, like, I have memorized a billion songs I sung in high school

in college, but now, like, I'll listen to a song a million times, and I've barely been listening to the lyrics. I don't know why that is. I mean, my brain is shutting down. So going back to the first gift, the first song we listened to, the bitch of living from spring awakening. I know, I know we're throwing a lot of shade at spring awakening. I do, I do want to say for the record, I think there's some great songs in there. And maybe I could learn. But it is, but let's talk about in terms of this framing because that's the other end of the spectrum from Sondheim. It's these rock pop songs.

It's the pop musical, and the songs are like verse chorus, verse chorus, and they don't perhaps have that same payoff that you get from Sondheim. That makes perfect sense. Where it builds and it tells a story. It's a little more static. Well, and it's leading into the production of popular music as well. More groove bass. You can listen to it in the background, but as Bridger points out,

it just doesn't have the texture, the grit, the things that you love about music. It's just, you know, I want more fuzz on the guitar. Right. I need to know the musician playing it could beat me up, essentially. So let's review for a moment. We've listened to the pop musical, the pop rock musical, I guess. That was Spring Awakening. We listened to the operatic musical.

That was lame miss. We listened to the, call it the old school musical, Oklahoma. Old timey even. And I think Sondheim is almost his own genre of musical. The Sondheim musical. I feel pretty satisfied That covers a lot of the musical theater territory Sorry, Limba and old Miranda

But you've had enough time on the mic There's the hip-hop musical He's like hip-hop and kind of the rock musical Yeah, I would put him in that first category, I think, yeah We each had different reactions to each of those And felt more or less at home in each of those genres I guess I'm curious like Is there something about musical theater

as a genre or as a way of delivering music that does provoke very strong reactions in people. And I'm saying this because I'm thinking of the Mean Girls musical, which just came out, and I feel like there was some controversy of people getting angry

because they didn't realize it was a musical. That is such a fascinating phenomenon, those trailers without music. Exactly, the trailer doesn't have any musicals, any songs in it, and then people go to the movie, and they're like, wait, they're singing? That's a broken promise. I understand that. But it also signals to me that there is, like, people have strong feelings about musicals that they don't necessarily about other things.

So where does that come? Why is that? Well, and also, wouldn't you say those people who are, like, freaking out in the theater, probably would like to see a musical. Like, if they knew they were going to a musical, would be fine with it. But, I mean, it is that strong feeling. Yeah. People have a lot of emotions tied into music. That's a good.

That's very true. I mean, everybody. We've definitely learned that hosting a podcast about pop music for 10 years and getting yelled at. like Ben Shapiro and Senator Tom Cotton. He has excellent taste in music. So I definitely have experienced that. And every fan group as well. But I contend that there is something,

especially about musicals that really... There's a little bit of an uncanny valley, right? It's like the shift from speech into song is... Listen, in Nate's household, maybe not, but in most households, fairly unnatural. Like, most people aren't having... You know, you don't lose, your job walk out into the street and go

life's a bitch I can't I lost my job what do I do you're like really sulk in it right I mean I grew up in a house that probably a total of 11 words were ever set in so it's a very different atmosphere from my reality and I feel like we're also kind of trained to not like musicals I feel like within popular culture it's always kind of the butt like an easy butt of the jokes

which is so strange because the entire history of the American the great American songbook comes from the world of musicals. Like hot music is so intertwined with musicals, but they seem to at some point to have maybe branched off from one another. Right. Right. And people don't feel that way

about Disney musicals, I think. Exactly. Because maybe they're already coded as like for children and they're not loaded in the same way of the same... You don't get the... the uncomfortableness of watching

a grown man or woman burst into song. Right, it's animated. So it does have that safety barrier. It's very puritanical almost, that like adults should not experience theatrical emotion. Right, right. But maybe that's also wherein lies the power of the musical because it does abrogate the social order in this way that is really exciting to experience. And it's also maybe why you can't have an edgy musical because I do agree with Fridger.

There's something inherently corny about doing that, but that is exactly why it's so powerful, I think, to lean into that cornyness. That makes perfect sense. How are you feeling you've received a number of musical gifts? I'm thrilled. I'm also so happy to have exposed my boyfriend as knowing nothing about me. I'm glad to be able to defend myself on the public record.

I love musicals. I just haven't seen that many. And I'm deeply stupid. It sounds like you're extremely open to more musicals in your life, but maybe not on your car rides. Right. Like, there's a time and a place and it's in the theater.

Yeah, and I feel like there probably are some musicals that I could listen to in the car. Probably like those 70s rock musicals I could probably get into. Yeah, yeah. Age of Aquarius. Right. Jesus Christ Superstar. That kind of thing.

I feel like kind of falls into a category of music I already like. But it's not going to happen. Okay. I've got so much other music to listen to. And I don't go to the theater to listen to Charlie X.E. X, you know? We have these are separate worlds for me. Just wait for the Broadway production.

What's happening? And I mean that Broadway, I mean, I don't want to drag this all out, but it's interesting to see Broadway kind of eating up our great pop songwriters. Max Martin is there. Nico Case is writing a musical. Like all of these great, because that's the only, literally the last place where there's money for a songwriters. Yeah, that's right.

That's interesting. There's an Atlanta's Moore set musical recently, I believe. So Burdry you make, I said no gifts, which is a really broken conceit because everybody brings you a gift. We have brought you the gift of musicals, and it has been such a pleasure to get to share in your listening. Oh, I'm so happy to be here. Yeah, thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you so much, Bridger. This episode of Switch on Pop was produced by Nate Sloan and me, Charlie Harding, and Rihanna Cruz. We were edited by Art Chung, engineered by Brandon McFarland, illustrations by Arras Gottlieb, community management by Abby Barr, an executive producer

is the Shot Karwa. Remember of the Box Media Podcast Network, production of Vulture, which is part of New York magazine, which you can subscribe to at New Yorkmag.com slash pod. And of course, you've got to go see Jimmy Smugula in the Broadway production of spam a lot. It is fantastic. Find more episodes of Switch on Pop anywhere you get podcasts. Talk to us on social media at Switched on Pop. We want to know the musicals you love, the musicals you hate, why I was wrong about Les Mis, why I was wrong about everything.

And we highly recommend that you subscribe to our newsletter where we will go deep into this topic and many others on a weekly basis in purple pros that you will not get enough of in your inbox, sign up in our show notes or our website, switched on pop.com. We get a little extra insight this week into the musicals that Nate has written. Oh, yeah, well, that's a great idea.

There's, of course, my Trigenyev adaptation that I co-wrote with Andy Hertz and the late great Lowry Marshall based on his Russian novel Fathers and Sons. And then there's the show Levitsburg, Ohio, semi-autobiographical. Peace. All right.

Save it for the newsletter. Okay, okay. I just wanted to tease it a little bit. Okay. All right. Yeah. Also, Rianna here, we should shout out this great episode from Today Explained that talks about the movie to musical to movie epidemic, but specifically how Hollywood is hiding that

these are musicals. We talked about this earlier in the episode, but for more, check that episode from Today Explained out. You won't be disappointed. All right. We'll be back again next Tuesday. And until then, thanks for listening. Attention, Spotify.

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