Switched on Pop - The Cyndi Lauper Conspiracy (with Sam Sanders)

Episode Date: November 24, 2020

Every song Cyndi Lauper writes is pop perfection according to Sam Sanders, host of NPR’s “It’s Been A Minute.” Many fall for “Girls Just Want To Have Fun,” but Sanders's favorite song is the slow burner “All Through The Night,” save for one moment: the synthesizer solo. For Sanders, this solo never fit in. Charlie investigates the source of his musical malady and uncovers how the 80s got its groove.  Songs Discussed Cyndi Lauper - Girls Just Want To Have Fun Cyndi Lauper - Time After Time Cyndi Lauper - She Bop Cyndi Lauper - All Through the Night Janet Jackson - When I Think Of You Janet Jackson - The Pleasure Principle Janet Jackson - Nasty Kenny Loggins - Danger Zone Whitney Houston - Greatest Love Of All Queen - Who Wants To Live Forever Tina Turner - What's Love Got To Do With It Cyndi Lauper - Change Of Heart Phil Collins - In The Air Tonight Kim Carnes - Bette Davis Eyes Tom Petty - You Got Lucky Cars - Lets Go Talking Heads - Burning Down The House Parliament Funkadelic - Atomic Dog The Weeknd - Blinding Lights Dua Lipa - Physical Little Mix - Break Up Song Miley Cyrus - Heart of Glass (Blondie Cover) More Read Dr. Megan L. Lavengood's research on the DX7: https://meganlavengood.com/research/ Listen to Dave Smith's (recently re-released) Sequential Prophet 5 synthesizer: https://www.sequential.com/product/prophet-5/ Learn about William Wittman's production credits on Discogs: https://www.discogs.com/artist/170639-William-Wittman Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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It's free for iOS users. Welcome to Switchdown Pop. I'm songwriter Charlie Harding and joining me is a very special guest. Sam Sanders from NPR's. It's been a minute. Hello. You called me up a few months ago with a musical melody. Remind me what was going on. So it feels weird even saying it out loud to your

audience because it's one of those questions where I'm like, is this even a valid concern? Should I even be taking this to anybody? But I think it is because I can't stop thinking about it. This has been in my ears and in my brain probably for years now. So let me just set it up. Folks might not know, but I'm a really big Cindy Lopper fan.

And I'm a really, really big fan of her debut studio album called She's So Unusual. Yeah. It was released in 1983, and it was a humongous hit. It won her best new artists at the Grammys. It sold 6 million copies in the U.S., 16 million worldwide, and it had four hit singles. It had four songs from this album hit the top five of the Billboard Hot 100, which was a record back then. Girls just want to have fun, time after time, she bop, and all through the night. Most people gravitate towards girls just want to have fun, and time after time, they're the classics.

but I think the best song of those four is All Through the Night. Ooh, the Sleeper Hit. Something about All Through the Night really works for me. Well, several things do. The way that bass line just walks, the way the melody kind of just sits right around the major third, begging for you to harmonize with it. It just gets in your bones right away. It's damn near a perfect pop song.

Like, I love All Through the Night so much. But this crazy thing happens about halfway through the song, this perfect piece of synth pop new wave. About halfway through the song, when it gets time for the solo, the most horrible, horrendous synth solo starts. And every time I hear it, I still shudder. It's the most jarring, disturbing thing to happen in a really, really good song

that I perhaps have ever heard in my life. You're not subtle about it. No, it's really bad. Here, let's hear a bit of that solo. So how would you describe the sound that you're hearing? What is the sort of like timbre? Is it supposed to sound like something? Halloween haunted house on quailudes.

One, the sense are too loud. Two, the setting just as weird. It feels like the synthesizer itself is slightly drunk. how would you describe it? For me it has like kind of like a faux accordion quality that is yeah maybe a couple of dB too loud

and yeah it's just like extremely 80s. And not even like because there's good 80s like when I think back to like for me the pinnacle of like 80s production which was synth heavy it's like Jimmy Jam and Terry Lewis who did a bunch of hits for Janet Jackson

and like they seem to have a more restrained grasp of the synthesizer. This one here, this one here, I can't put my finger on it. It's just like the synthesizer is punching me in the throat. If you had to use one word to describe this sound, what would it be? Cheesy.

It is so cheesy. Chuckie cheese. I hear you. I hear what's going on. So what do I need to solve for you? I think you need to tell me why all of these great people working with Cindy Lopper, including Cindy Lopper, to make this really great album

and these really great timeless classic songs and let this horrible synth sound end up in the mix of that. Why does this horrible synth pop up in such a great song? These obviously aren't unskilled producers or singers or songwriters. They were functioning on a higher level

because the whole album is so good. How did none of them hear how horrible that synthesizer sounded? That's my question for you. Okay. So what you might not know is that for the last couple of months I've been going on this quest to solve your musical malady. Because you're a true friend. Thanks.

And I divided this question into actually a sub-question because I feel like underlying your inquiry is that this sounds bad. And so I wanted to first investigate like how do we even get that idea of does this sound bad? Where does that come from? And then I want to answer your question of, well, why did Cindy Lopper make this choice? How did it get on the record? And maybe we can figure out why it's not working for you. I love it. Okay.

So the first person I approached to figure out why do we hear 80s synths as so cheesy is a music theorist who has a PhD from studying synthesizers, which leads me to believe I chose the one career. And specifically, she's really into why some old sounds sounds. classic and others sound dated. Huh. I'm Megan Leavengood. I teach music theory at George Mason University. I'm an assistant professor there. So Megan Levingood got her PhD studying one of the most iconic synthesizers of all time.

The DX7 is the first commercially kind of viable digital synthesizer that existed. It's known for having a bit of a harsh sound. And it doesn't necessarily have to have a negative connotation, but it often does. You probably know this DX7 sound. She says one of the best examples is Kenny Loggins' danger zone. Oh, you hit it for me. I want to hear it. How's that bass making you feel?

That is hella 80s. Hella, hella, hella 80s. I feel like we're getting this really bad imitation of a slap bass. Exactly. And it's like, why not just play a slap bass? Totally. And it also makes me think, like, was it made to sound bad? Exactly.

When I look through all these old keyboard magazine issues, all the advertisements are so focused on realism. It's so easy to find ads that are like making an orchestra come out of your synthesizer. Isn't that wild? And this is so weird hearing you say that and like hearing her say that because it's like, you know, in the decade before, in the 70s, when disco was popping off, they would have like a whole symphony backing a disco artist. They were really into, it felt like for me at least, a lot of. real instrumentation in the 70s, and all of a sudden, let's synth it up. Yeah, and it sounded pretty cheesy. Here's that orchestra sound from the DX7 that Professor Levingut was describing.

I played it on a little Beethoven. Oie. Well, you don't think it's like the fullest, most beautiful, lush-sounding orchestra you've ever heard? So that starts... Oh, whoa! Whoa! I want to start playing Tetris. The wild thing is, Sam, that people loved this sound.

When you read the artist's statements, they don't seem to think that it's realistic, but they do like the sound. So this is the thing is, like, no one really believed that this thing sounded like a real guitar or piano or orchestra, but it had something creative to it. People actually end up loving this synthesizer so much that it was a huge, huge hit. Yamaha, who developed it, made projections that they'd sell like 20,000 units in the first year, and they sold over 150,000, which was the best selling synthesizer of all times. time at that moment. Wow. And Professor Levengood actually posits that it's the overwhelming popularity of that synthesizer and its sounds from the 1980s that make it sound so cheesy today.

Like these sounds were just totally overdone. With the digital synthesizers and the advent, you know, with computing and digital memory and stuff like more synthesizers were able to sell preset, preset sounds to consumers. More people were able to sort of feel like they could play a synthesizer. But then also the other side of that coin is that it sort of homogenized the sound of 1980s music in a lot of ways. Right. So it turns out this synthesizer was so incredibly difficult to program that everybody just defaulted to the presets that it came with, the pre-installed sounds on the DX7. And I promise you, you know them.

Whether you own this instrument or not, these sounds are iconic, probably the most famous. You must know this electric piano sound. Oh yeah, oh yeah. We're getting in the mood. Is there any one person? Michael McDonald's? Definitely. You know who comes up in mind for me?

Is, of course, Whitney Houston. And you can hear the E-Piano One preset on Whitney's greatest love of all. Oh, yeah. Chimey, digital, bright, harsh goodness. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. And Whitney wasn't alone, right? Like, tons of people use these sounds. Like, even Queen used that bad orchestra sound on their song,

Who Wants to Live Forever? Ugh. It's not all bad. You're not with me. You're hardly with me. But I swear, there's the Calliope from Tina Turner's. What's Love Got to Do With It? Oh, my God.

Another DX7 preset and an iconic sound of the 80s. Okay, that one I like. You like this one, all right. Cindy wasn't above it. Yeah. She used the DX7 on Change of Heart, that same bass sound that we heard on Kenny Loggins. Oh. Oh, you know what?

What's that? That gives me the same kind of vibes that you get in that first bass line and walk of Janet Jackson's pleasure principle. Sam, you are right on. And that is exactly my point, is that this synthesizer was so ubiquitous and its presets were so ubiquitous that they actually just kind of became the sound of the 1980s. Wow. And Professor Lavingood's research actually confirms the ubiquity of these sounds. She found out that in the 1980s that only 10 to 20 percent of the people that owned these synthesizers actually made their own sounds, that everyone else just used presets.

And so maybe the success of these sounds were actually their own aesthetic demise. A popular perception is that like the artistry sort of declined in the 80s. It's like a very classic debate, right, about like physical embodied skill versus technology. Technology took over and it became just too much. And I think for that reason, these sounds were so commonplace that they kind of like jumped the shark and they eventually just became so cliche that they sound cheesy. It feels like that era of like my time in college when like every song on hip hop radio I had to have a little John. Had to have them. You couldn't make a song with that little John.

Little John is the synthesizer of the, what is it, mid-2000s. Totally. In the same period, like, you had to throw auto-tune on your track. Exactly. It had to be. And in the same way, people derided that sound. So we understand now why we have that cheesy association with certain 80s synth sounds. But as you put it, like, there's lots of great music from the 1980s, lots of great Cindy's songs

that use other synthesizers. And it leads me to want to answer your next question, which is why this accordion-ish preset? Was it a preset? Like, where did it come from? Yeah. You know, I did my, like, deep Google search. I went through databases of famous synth presets from the 1980s,

and I couldn't find an accordion sound. But I did find a sound called the harmonium on the... The Prophet 5, which was one of the most popular synthesizers at the time, but it cost like $10,000 today to buy a used one. And I figured it would be much easier to figure out whether or not this was the sound if I just called the guy who made it to see if my hypothesis was correct that maybe Cindy just grabbed an accordion sound called Harmonium on the Prophet 5. My name is Dave Smith. I've been designing synthesizers for almost 50 years now. There are two big names in American synthesizers. Bob Moog makes Moog synthesizers and Dave Smith, who made sequential synthesizers.

I've heard of Moog. I've never heard of Smith. Not fair to Mr. Smith. You know, when he was just in his 20s, Smith created the Prophet 5 back in the late 70s. And it was the first synthesizer that would let you play chords and properly program the instrument to have presets. And it fundamentally changed the sound of music such that, like, one of the first 10 models, he sold to David Bowie. Oh. It was a breakthrough instrument that actually allowed all of the great and horrible music of the 80s.

Some of it was cheesy and some of it was really good. You've heard the Prophet 5 on Phil Collins in the air tonight. Oh, yeah. You can hear it on Kim Carnes, Betty Davis Eyes. on Tom Petty's You Got Lucky. And the funny thing is, though, a lot of people just used the presets. You know, there's a handful of signature sounds on the Prophet 5.

There's one sound that was used on a number of records. It's used on the cars, let's go. You know, that do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do. And that same sound was used in burning down the house by talking heads. It was used in Atomic Dog. from Parliament Funkadelic. That's crazy. Yeah, right?

It's one of these instruments that really did change the sound of music. And, you know, obviously, I was curious. Is this the instrument that is on the Cindy track all through the night? And so I asked Dave, does he recognize his sound on this song? Do you know the Cindy Lopper track that I mentioned?

I'm trying, you'd have to hum a few bars, but it's not. Let me play all through the night for you, really quickly. Okay. I don't think it sounds like one of mine. And actually a lot of times you don't necessarily know if somebody in particular is using your synth.

You know, I can't say for sure. Sometimes I can, but often not. That didn't really have a sound that I would think it was ours. Sam, I failed. Okay. So then what do we do now? I figured I at least asked this guy what he thought of these 80s. synth sounds and whether he agreed with our earlier hypothesis about their cheesy quality.

I don't think people were thinking of it necessarily as good or bad. They were, in a lot of cases, it was just their type of music. Some people were trying to do new music. It's easy to look back now. You know, you could laugh at a lot of 80s music. You could certainly laugh at a lot of 80s hair and a lot of 80s clothing. It was a period. You know, it worked at the time, most of it. Mostly. Mostly. I love that qualifying mostly. I mean, honestly, though, I was just so bummed because I told you I have a bit of a synth problem. I was so happy to get to chat with Dave Smith, who really is a total icon. And I thought he would have the answer for me. And he didn't. But don't fret, Sam.

After an even longer quest, I found the one person who seems to have a definitive answer. And we'll hear from them right after a short break. Maria, you have a podcast now and you need to start acting like it. What's the first step as a podcaster? Well, you have to ask lots of questions. I'm Maria Sharpova, and I'm hosting a new podcast called Pretty Tough. Every week, I'm sitting down with trailblazing women at the top of their game to discuss ambition, work ethic, and the ups and downs that come on the path to achieving greatness. I have a few pretty tough questions for you.

Okay. Ready? Ready. Do not sugarcoat something for me. No. No. No. We'll dive into their stories and get valuable insights from top executives, actors, entrepreneurs, and other individuals who have inspired me so much in my own journey.

Pretty tough is your front row seat to the women who have demonstrated the power in being unapologetic in their pursuits. I hope you'll join us. New episodes drop Wednesdays on YouTube or in your favorite podcast app. Immigration may be Donald Trump's signature issue. President Trump is now targeting predominantly Democratic cities for ice raids and Dozens of protesters clashing with immigration and customs enforcement agents in Minneapolis Tuesday. We will begin the process of returning millions and millions of criminal aliens back to the places from which they came. But what we want to do in this space is talk about America and politics beyond the current president. So what do most Americans think about deportation and border security, period?

I think that Americans are definitely against the kind of violent displays that we've seen in the street from ICE. when it comes to the question of deportation, the answer is more complicated. My sense is that people want border at the border. They don't like the idea of having no idea who's coming into the United States at any given time. The view on immigration from the bottom up instead of the top down.

That's this week on America Actually. Every Saturday in your audio and video feeds. To be honest, Sam, after talking to Dave Smith, I was in a bit of a tizzy. I feel like I'd failed you. You know, I'd found out why synth sounds are cheesy to us now, but that wasn't your question. Your question is, how did Cindy choose this sound? And as I mentioned, I did find the person who could answer the question.

But to get there, I had to go down a few rabbit holes. I did everything I could to reach out to Cindy. I traded messages with her publicists. No luck. Oh, alas. Cindy's a great person, but sounds like she was super busy. Couldn't chat. But I did find this archival recording of Cindy Lopper on the Howard Stern show that led me to my next clue.

It was written this way and I've never sung it this way. You're referring to the song All Through the Night. Yeah, Juleshire wrote it and he wrote it like this. We had no past. We won't reach back. Keep with me. Check it out. Interesting.

What do you hear? Is that an accordion? Is that an accordion? That's an accordion. So my hunch of, hey, this sounds kind of accordionish, was spot on. Like, Cindy says this is how she originally imagined. How do you feel about this version? Well, the first thing I notice is that when she's singing that melody,

she's hanging kind of on the harmony, in my opinion, like she's hanging on the five and the six, which is interesting. It's interesting to also hear the song like with an acoustic guitar a little bit. Like the song, I think, works in any format because it's just a really well-written song. But I also, again, with this one, that solo comes in, and I'm still scratching my head. Like, the accordion comes out of nowhere, too. It's still less jarring than that synth. And those sounds we're hearing in the backer, there's actually dulcimer in there as well.

So we have these traditional instruments that are sort of like, have this kind of like Irish jig kind of vibe going on. Also, Cindy wasn't dumb. She made like this new wave movement very poppy and radio friendly with that album. Right. She knew what she was doing. Like for the most part, the sounds of that album, the sounds of the song are perfect for that moment. The only part where I get upset is the syntho. And here's the thing.

Like Sam, you're not alone. So obviously when you first asked me this question, I went and did my internet sleut thing and like tried to find the answer there. What I missed on my first pass were these like really, really, you know, deep, older internet forums because lots of other people have actually asked this question, like, what is the synthesizer solo? What is the sound? Why did it happen?

And so, after I heard this Cindy clip of the accordion, I went and I found this posting on, obviously people were asking this on like Reddit, on forums called Harmony Central, but there's this really popular music forum that is really unfortunately

called gear sluts. And it is like the most popular music forum. There was a post that I found from July 7th, 2011. So I wanted to ask your exact question. And a user posts, there's like a complete synth breakdown of a bunch of tracks off of She's So Unusual. And they go through how all through the night even uses the same Profit 5 in the background, using the same patch as Phil Collins in the air tonight.

It's subtle, but it's in there. They give this all this detail. And the next poster is like, whoa, are you Cindy? And then they're like, no, no, no, no, no. This other person jumps in is like, no, this is all wrong. This person has no idea what they're talking. So it's going back and forth. But that last guy who jumps in is actually the person who produced the album.

And I'm like, I've got to get in touch with it. This is back in 2011. But I'm like, I bet I could find him. So I went to his website. I called him up. And I think I found the answer to your question. Really? I'm William Whitman.

William Whitman is a band member, plays the bass, and he's also the musical director for Cindy Lopper. He's been doing that for decades. If anyone knows the real story, it's William. So I told him your story. Okay, so Sam is a buddy of mine, and we were talking a few days ago. So what he says to me is, like, I am the biggest Cindy Lopper fan of all time.

Okay. And he's like, but I have this one problem. I'm like, what's that? And he's like, this synthesizer solo and all through the night. He's like, how in the world did this happen? I'll digress a little in answering. And we were already into purposely weird solo realms. And in a similar manner, when it came to the solo on girls just want to have fun,

Rob Hyman, the keyboard, one of the keyboard players, put up this wacky pop machine sound and made that crazy solo for girls almost as a joke like oh I dare you to like this and everybody in the room went yeah that's the one yes we want crazy we want the solo that sounds nothing like what everybody else is doing I remember that one oh that was that also was a bad solo too when it was all over and we played it back for Rob Hyman he said well I think this is great but I don't know who the fuck is going to listen to it and and and And I know we all knew exactly what he meant. It sounded nothing like what was on the radio at the time.

The point being that we were already open to, and Cindy was open to it being left-fieldy. This album is, as William Whitman put it, like, this is something that is out of left field. She's so unusual. They're going for outlandish sounds, and that brings us to all through the night. That's all it was Peter Wood.

Peter was sort of the second keyboard player on Cindy's record. Do you know what instrument he played it on? Yes, on the Memory Moog. Foyled! Oh! I called the wrong synth manufacturer. The Memory Moog was actually the other famous synth from the time, made by Bob Moog, and Moog music. He actually made the synth as a competitor to the Prophet Five.

Huh. William confirmed the Prophet Five was elsewhere on the record, but obviously I fulfilled my side quest as a synth geek, but I still have not answered your question about what happened in the studio, how did this all play out? Whatever we were doing that day, I think we had tried some guitar solo ideas that were really not doing it. And Peter, I think, again, semi as a joke, put up this sort of bagpipe-like sound and played pretty much one take off the top of his head. Boom, here's a solo laughing and sort of doing an Irish jig while he played this bagpipe solo. I think thinking we would all say that's too silly. You know, just to lighten the mood, I'll play this bad pipe thing, and we'll have a laugh, and we'll do something else.

And everybody went, oh, yeah, that's great. We're keeping that. Wow. Like, I mean, it all makes sense now. Of course, that synthesizer solo began as a joke. That's the only way it would have happened. Well, it's like it began as an accordion, and then they turned the whole song into, like, a synth-pop thing. And so Peter Wood, who played the synthesizer.

on it plays this sound, which is like kind of in that same world, but it's this hilarious juxtposition. And they kept it ever cementing it in pop history. I asked William how he heard that solo now. If you had to like put on the character of that synthesizer solo, what is it trying to say to us? I think it's doing a little happy dance in the middle of that song. I mean, that's the way it comes off. Even when we play it live, it goes very major there. And Cindy tends to do a little, not quite an Irish jig or step dance, but something like that. You know, she dances around in that bit. It's not a melancholy bit in an otherwise somewhat melancholy song. It is just a little happy moment. That's amazing. You know what's so interesting.

The lyrics are a little cryptic, and you can't tell from the lyrics if this is a sad song or a happy song. Like, we have no past, we won't reach back. Keep with me forward all through the night. And once we start, the meter clicks and it goes running all through the night. Until it ends, there is no end? Like, is she running in joy or, like, running to, like, Romeo and Juliet, herself and her lover? I don't know. Totally. You know, it makes me think that this synth solo in that way, it is somewhat Shakespearean.

Like, even in Shakespearean tragedies, you have these moments of comic relief. And as the producer William Whitman put in it, like, this is a moment of just fun and joy. It's a place where she raises her arms up and dances a little jig. And this confirms one of the reasons why I think I love this song so much, because I am obsessed with songs that don't actually tell the listener if they're happy or sad. You got to figure it out or something in between. Yeah, no, totally. And this is a moment that people actually really enjoy.

In fact, Sam, you might be in a minority here because- Oh, come on. Fans dig this track. When they play it live, they recreate it exactly as it was. They do the solo? We almost always have tried to clone that solo accurately. It's like that's one of those solos where if you don't play it, like on the record, people look at you like, well, why didn't you play the whole song the way it's supposed to be?

Huh. You know, it's become a signature part that you don't want to drift too far away from because people miss it. Oh, my God. So ultimately, my investigation leads me to believe. believe that you're actually just totally out of touch. You're an imposter Cindy Lopper fan and that I have a problem with synthesizer wormholes. What do you think? I would say I would agree that I'm out of touch because I'm out of touch on a lot of stuff. And gosh, maybe I should just reconsider that synth solo and synthesizers in general. Man, if this is the part to come to the live shows for,

I am out of touch. The thing is, we're in this huge 1980s comeback. Like, maybe it had a bad rap in its time, but these sounds are very present today. We hear 80s since in the weekend's blinding lights, do a leap as physical, Little Mix's breakup song. Miley Cyrus even just did a cover of Heart of Glass. Yeah. Oh, you're right. It's a moment.

We're in some 80s nostalgia. And so, I mean, obviously, you're not totally out of touch. I'm playing with it. But, like, it makes me wonder, though, like, having gone through this. Do you feel like you hear the synthesizer solo in a different way now? I'm definitely going to. Because now I know that some really smart people that made this had a reason. I think before you explain this to me, I thought that there was no reason.

And I'm like, oh, there is a reason. So I have to respect it more. I will say, you know, if I was in charge of the world, I would replace it with a nice, honestly. Bad, no, okay, what solo would I want? I would do, I think you have to do that solo now that I think about it. It's the synth song. Otherwise, what are you going to call the album? Like, she's less unusual?

You're right. You're right. All right, I take it all back. Cindy, I was wrong. Forgive me. You can do no wrong. Sam, it has been so much fun investigating this question for you. It has changed the way that I hear sounds that I had previously thought of as cheesy.

And as you were leading to, it has. has definitely made me miss going to some live performances, because I feel like, had you seen Cindy live, and you had seen this song, and you had danced a jig to that solo, you would have been converted long ago, and instead, it took this moment, your friend, investigating your question for many months,

but it's been an absolute joy to do so. Thank you, sir. This was amazing. I'm like, now I'm going to just send you all of my musical mysteries. Next, can you figure out what happened to Latoya and Latavia from Destiny's Child? Where'd they go? What do they have two? That's your next mystery. All right. I'll get back on it. I'll talk to you again in, I don't know, six, nine, 12 years.

This episode of Switchdown Pop was produced by Bridget Armistrong, and me, Charlie Harding. We're engineered by Brandon McFarland, illustrations by Iris Scott, leave, and social media by Abby Barr. Our executive producers, Arnashot, Kerwa, and Liz Kelly Nelson. We're a member of the Vox Media Podcast Network. I want to say thank you to Sam Sanders for bringing me this really ridiculous and fun question. If you have other musical inquiries and musical maladies that you need diagnosed and solved, you can email us, you can get in contact with us on social media at Switched On Pop. We love hearing from you. And obviously, if you want to hear back episodes, you can go to Switchedonpop.com and anywhere you get your podcast. We'll be back again

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