Switched on Pop - The mid-career crises of Travis Scott and Post Malone

Episode Date: August 15, 2023

Right now, the two biggest records in the country come to us from two of hip-hop’s biggest superstars: Travis Scott and Post Malone. Both artists have been releasing mainstream records for nearly a decade; their records UTOPIA and AUSTIN, respectfully, sit at number one and two on the Billboard 200. But going further than the numbers, these albums signify a shift in these artists’ sounds, moving them out of their usual genres into previously uncharted territory in both of their careers. And as this is Post Malone’s fifth record and Travis Scott’s fourth, we also must ask: what does it mean to be a mid-career artist? Songs discussed: Travis Scott – HYAENA Post Malone – Mourning Travis Scott, Teezo Touchdown – MODERN JAM Post Malone – Chemical Madonna – Borderline Madonna – Ray of Light Madonna – Don’t Tell Me Kendrick Lamar – m.a.a.d. city Kendrick Lamar – For Free? – interlude Travis Scott, Swae Lee, Chief Keef – Nightcrawler Travis Scott, Yung Lean – PARASAIL Travis Scott, Kid Cudi – LOOOVE  Kanye West – I Am A God Gentle Giant – Proclamation Travis Scott, Beyoncé – DELRESTO (ECHOES) Post Malone – White Iverson Post Malone, 21 Savage – rockstar Post Malone – Overdrive Pixies – Where Is My Mind? Semisonic – Closing Time Post Malone – Something Real Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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I'm producer Rianna Cruz. And I'm songwriter Charlie Harding. So Charlie, the two biggest records in America right now according to the Billboard 200, come to us from two rap superstars, Travis Scott and Post Malone. Couldn't it be more different?

You would think, right? Travis Scott's Utopia is currently at number one. Yeah. Okay, this shit is out of control. I'm driving through hell and out and brought snow. It's shining and hitting out and brought glow. I hear the sirens right out the chateau. And post Malone's Austin is currently sitting at number two.

Two rap, superstars, two very different directions. Yeah, immediately through these two snippets, I'm hearing things that are drastically different from, I think, what we've come to know about these two artists. And what it seems like to me is that maybe both of these artists are kind of going through something of a mid-career crisis, Charlie. Oh, that makes sense to me. I feel like the career lifespan of a pop star or even more so of a hip hop star are pretty short. They don't last that many years. And both of these artists been around for a minute. Travis Scott came on the scene in 2015. He's released four albums. Post Malong came out the same year. He's got five albums. This is sort of a pivotal moment to decide are you a long career artist or have you kind of flamed out? I'm curious how you're hearing them wrestle. with this mid-career crisis? Well, I think both artists are going through a transitional moment,

and these albums seem to represent that. Travis Scott is known for his predominantly trap sound. I get those goosebumps every time. I need the hymn. Throw that to desire. But on Utopia, he's playing in genres like House and Electro Clash on tracks like Modern Jam. And just like Travis Schaeck. And just like Travis Scott Post Malone started his career making predominantly hip-hop and trap music.

But Austin is reflecting a full pivot into his more acoustic and rock-adjacent sensibilities. And both of these records, which are coming from two hip-hop superstars, reflect a time when the genre, which is now in its 50th year, is in a place. of transition. In fact, Utopia is only the second rap album to hit number one this entire year after Lil UzuVert's Pink Tape a few weeks ago. Which really feels like a change from the past decade or so where rap and hip hop have been so dominant on the charts. So between the longevity of both of these artists and the state of hip hop in 2023, it's natural, I think, for both Travis Scott and Post Malone to be at this transitional stage in their career. So there may be by By looking at both of these albums, we can learn something about what it means for an artist and maybe even a genre to be in a period of transition.

I'd love to listen for how they adapt their sound to establish a new or even later stage career identity. This idea, I think, though, of a transitional mid-career, maybe even mid-life crisis isn't new. And I think in a pop career, there's this concept of eras, you know, and I think people switch things up to keep things interesting and to keep people invested. It's what separates the career of someone like Taylor Swift from someone like Katie Perry, who kind of is doing the same thing, album after album. Yeah, any pop star who's been around for a minute needs to adapt, not just to keep their fan base entertained, but also to stay relevant. Pop music is such a fast-changing art form that if you stay in the past, your hand. sound quickly becomes dated. I feel like the most cited example would be like the Beatles, who, on their sixth album, Rubber Soul, moved away from some of the more straightforward rock and roll

and pop sounds they had established and introduced new instrumentation, different kinds of song structures, and by the time they're onto their next album Revolver, they are in a very experimental place, dividing their career really into a first half and a second half. I feel like artists that successfully make it past this mid-career point often, become known more for their experimental freewheeling art that they make in their second half. Yeah, and the Beatles aren't the only ones to survive this transition, taking it back to somebody like Madonna, who in the early years of her career had a very traditional 80s bubblegum pop sound. Then in the 90s, she transitions into more experimental work like the esoteric trans adjacent ray of light.

And she even does it again two years after Ray of Light with the country-driven album music. And even in the hip-hop world, Kendrick Lamar, who built his career on SoCal Hip Hop, leaned heavily into jazz and funk on his third record to Pimp a Butterfly. This dick ain't free. You looking at me like it ain't a receipt like I never made is me eating your left over is raw meat. This dick ain't free. I feel like what I'm hearing in common from the Beatles to Madonna to Kendrick Lamar is a major genre and sonic shift that indicates a transition. So I think we should go back to Travis Scott and Post Malone and figure out if they're going through a similar shift. I'm curious, Rihanna, what are you hearing on Travis Scott's new album?

Okay, Utopia. Let's get into it. This record is Travis Scott's longest record to date is a whopping. 19 songs, and 73 minutes. I mean, it better be. You don't want a utopia to be short-lived. No, I guess not. You want it to be long and inviting. It's Scott's fifth album and his latest full record

following AstorWorld in 2018, which already was demonstrating his ability to try new things and experiment as demonstrated through the massive hit, Sicko Mode. Right. This song, which you've discussed a lot on the podcast, demonstrates that an album doesn't need to have a single vibe,

and neither does a song. A song can have three totally different vibes and still work together, actually putting him in good company with like a Paul McCartney, who is known to piece together three very different songs into one mega song. I think of like band on the run or something. McCartney's work with Rihanna and Kanye, I feel like the Travis Scott co-lab is the next thing to come. Sycomode and Utopia aren't just moments of musical change, but also personal change. Utopia is his first record since the Astro World Festival disaster two years ago, where 10 concert goers died as a result of a crowd crush during Travis Scott's set. So it's his first album since a radical shift in his image and public perception,

which understandably took a massive hit in the wake. of the tragedy. So knowing all this, utopia is framing itself as a transition record. But to understand the transition in sound, we got to understand what is Travis Scott's vibe? You know, what is his sound? And I think as someone that's listened to him since his rodeo days in 2015, I think it comes down to one thing and that's spectacle rap. Spectacle rap? Yeah. I mean, when I listen to Travis Scott, I think what I come from, for is a sense of massive production and massive soundscapes. Clearly, a lot of effort goes into making his songs sound as big as possible, and it's a sort of maximalism. Take a song like Nightcrawler

from Rodeo. Right, you've got the heavy 808, you've got the skittering trap high hats, you have this sort of siren that I think might be a vocal sample, whoo, going up and down. And then his voice is just larger than life. Like I've always associated Travis Scott as sort of in the world of mumble rap, very reliant on autotune for his sound. But it's way more than just autotune. He produces his vocal in a way that it is all enveloping. It's wide. It's deep.

It's all around you. It definitely is quite maximalist. It's very intense. And people have come to expect this from him, both in sound. and in what my brother, who is a massive Travis Scott fan, calls immersive experiences. Utopia is no different. But much like how AstroWorld took risks and leaned into Houston rap, Utopia plays in genres that we've heard less of in his output.

We got some woozy, hypnagogic art pop on a song like Parasail. We got 70s-inspired. psychedelic hodgepodge music, like the song Love. And he's sampled jazzy Prague musicians like gentle giant on the opening track of the record, Hyena. The situation we are in at this time need. Or is it someone blessed it can change? So like his mid-career predecessors, Travis Scott is is playing with genre on Utopia.

And it's evident through one of his more experimental tracks on the album, Modern Jam. Okay, so this is what you were talking about moving into sort of an electro territory. I think this is a very neat song because it demonstrates that one of the ways that you can move into a new genre is by finding a new groove. Right. This is not a beat that I'm familiar with in the Travis Scott world. Yeah, I'm hearing industrial electro clash. inspiration here. The beat is sparse. It's crunchy, for lack of a better term. He literally calls it a modern jam. Exactly. Exactly. It's new. It's nuanced. And there's production here from

Guill Manuel Le Olmum Christo of Daft Punk. Wait, I love this because Travis Scott says that he's going to create his own Burning Man. The giant arts festival in the desert that I have admittedly been to a number of times. And there's this ongoing joke at Burning Man that Daft Punk is going to play one day. And people often trick tens of thousands of people to show up at a DJ set thinking that it's going to be Daft Punk, but it's just some like random circus music. So I like that he got Daft Punk to produce modern jam to create his own Burning Man. He even says it on the song right after the Burning Man line, he goes, A.

Guiman brought him home from France. Wow. Oh, so Daft Punk is still having a life. I mean, Gimon here, but yeah. The Geemann production evokes even another left-turn transformational mid-Korea record, Yeez-Is. Oh, right, yeah. Daft Punk produced four tracks on that, including the song, I Am a God.

Hurry up with my damn croissants. I am a god. Right, a clear reference here because Kanye says, give me my damn croissants. Scott says that he's pulling Gimaud from France And they share not just a producer But a little bit of a vibe The rhythm's a bit different

But again, they both aren't common rhythms That we would hear in hip hop Definitely and as the music blog No Bell's even reported I Am a God was the Genesis point For the modern jam B It's allegedly repurposed from one of the Yeezah sessions for I Am a God

Okay interesting to go from one Mid-Kore album to another But the unexpected moments don't stop there. About halfway through the song, vocals come in from Tizo Touchdown that, to me, are so out of left field. Admittedly, I don't know Tizo Touchdown, but his vocal is very 80s new wave, which is actually perhaps fitting to the underlying electro and industrial feeling. Yeah, I really dig Tizo touchdown's vocals, but even Travis is doing something different. with his vocals. He's yelling over the beat in a way that kind of evokes even house music. Yeah, highly processed, but not his usual auto tune sound. And to your point, we really expect

a maximalist approach. And really, there's actually not a lot of elements here. There's a lot of sound. The snare drum is very noisy. Like, there's a lot of delay on his voice. But there's just a few things going on. To lean into the electro, the industrial, the house of it all, it is a shift from the spectacle of Travis Scott. Yeah, and I think we'd be totally remiss if we didn't mention the other sparsely produced house production on the record, the Beyonce feature and the song Delresto echoes. It's only a bit more. I escape for. I'm pretty tired. You know, what's interesting to me is that hearing that minimal house groove, the production again is sparse, but it's very dark here. Travis Scott is evoking the idea of utopia and all utopias of course are false and here I think he's certainly painting a very dark vision of utopia. It kind of feels like we've gone behind the curtain and things aren't exactly what they seem. He could even be playing off of the classic trope of the club and the dance floor being utopia for many.

Yeah, absolutely. Because here, once again, we have a clear house influence and this could even be. piggybacking off of two successful house pivots by AIS artists in recent years. We have, of course, Beyonce's Renaissance, which she is evoking on this track. And Drake's honestly, nevermind, which had him going into house and other electronic subgenres. So as you reflect in the beginning, it's not just Travis Scott who's going through a sonic change, that hip hop in its 50th year is also trying to find the next big sounds. that can have the same weight and power that trap music has had over the last many years,

which we should say is also on utopia. Travis Scott still has that vibe going, but he's playing in some new territory. But of course, as we mentioned at the beginning of the episode, Travis Scott is not the only artist trying new things in the hip-hop world. When we come back from break, we'll check out the number two record in the country, which comes from a similar mid-career crisis, and that's Post-Malone's Austin. Maria, you have a podcast now and you need to start acting like it. What's the first step as a podcaster? Well, you have to ask lots of questions. I'm Maria Sharpova and I'm hosting a new podcast called Pretty Tough.

Every week, I'm sitting down with trailblazing women at the top of their game to discuss ambition, work ethic, and the ups and downs that come on the path to achieving greatness. I have a few pretty tough questions for you. Okay. Ready? Ready. Do not sugarcoat something for me. No, no. No. We'll dive into their stories and get valuable insights from top executives,

actors, entrepreneurs, and other individuals who have inspired me so much in my own journey. Pretty tough is your front row seat to the women who have demonstrated the power in being unapologetic in their pursuits. I hope you'll join us. New episodes drop Wednesdays on YouTube or in your favorite podcast app. Immigration may be Donald Trump's signature issue. President Trump is now targeting predominantly Democratic cities for ice raids and deportations. Dozens of protesters clashing with immigration and customs enforcement agents in Minneapolis Tuesday. We will begin the process of returning millions and millions of criminal aliens back to the places from which they came. But what we want to do in this space is talk about America

and politics beyond the current president. So what do most Americans think about deportation and border security, period? I think that Americans are definitely against the kind of violent displays that we've seen in the street from ICE. When it comes to the question of deportation, the answer is more complicated. My sense is that people want border at the border. They don't like the idea of having no idea who's coming into the United States at any given time. The view on immigration from the bottom up instead of the top down. That's this week on America Actually. Every Saturday in your audio and video feeds. So Austin by Post Malone is the second biggest record on the Billboard. board 200. And much like Utopia, it signals a pivot in sound and aesthetic. But instead of

skewing electronic and house adjacent like Traff Scott, Post Malone leans fully in the opposite direction and goes more acoustic. This is his track, Morning. I thought I'm strong enough. Got a lot of shit to say. Couldn't fit it in the core. I feel like Post Malone is doing like trap music unplugged. Obviously, leading into acoustic instrumentation, the guitar starts off doing this rhythm. But bah, bum, that's like one of the most predominant rhythms that we hear in the kick drum and bass and trap music. And then he gives us exactly that when the thick 808 baseline comes in and doubles the guitar line. I think it's much debated about Post Malone's place within hip-hop, right?

He's always been kind of genre bending as a white rapper. He has also someone who's singing as much as he is rapping. And I think this album continues some of those questions. Right. He's been kind of blending genre his whole career. So this switch up doesn't necessarily come out of left field. Pose Malone, his mainstream career started in 2015, aided by the virality of his song, White Iverson.

And we could hear a lot of his hallmark sounds in that track. Yeah, that's my shot, that's my shot, that's my shout I'm spending on my fucking pay. Yeah, the thing that he's always done is that no matter the production style he has, he works with a rap style cadence, but he always embeds his lyrics with super catchy melodies. He never raps in a monotone. And I think part of it is how distinctive his,

singing voices. He has a kind of warble, you know, to his vocals that kind of like evokes like, you know, and you sing into a fan and like, it like goes like la la la la la la la la. Like, that's what I hear when I listen to Post Malone and I love it. Yeah, his vibrato

Nate once described as sounding like a bleeding goat. But somewhere between the fan and the bleeding goat, yeah, that's Post Malone's thing. Post Malone has a very clear vocal. identity, the way that he sings a hook, the way that he raps, the way that he bleeds like a goat,

that is the Post Malone thing. Yes, and another important part of that image is understanding that Post Malone kind of frames himself as a modern rock star. The song we just heard is titled rock star, and he's expressed some of his biggest inspirations are Bob Dylan and Kurt Cobain and Jim Morrison. And around his third record, Hollywood Bleeding. Bleeding, not bleating. Just so that we're clear.

Just to be clear, Hollywood bleeding. He leans into this with features from Ozzy Osbourne and Travis Barker. But also, his record has songs like Circles. Talk about a vibe shift. Absolutely. He's like simultaneously pursuing this rock star image, but also bringing in a very chilled out radio-friendly, acoustic vibe. Circles to me is much different from the nature of rock star or even White Iverson. It's kind of like soft rock.

I kind of feel like the song, Morning, off the new album, Austin, that you played at the top, is almost like a synthesis of these two sounds because we had some of the hip-hop beat, but way more of the nirvana unplugged through the lens of adult contemporary kind of thing that Circles is doing. I like I did Pilates. I call my quote unquote friends. Do you got plans? Turns out everyone's free when it dinner is.

I like it. He's in the Pilates phase of his life. And I think the success of circles, which spent, you know, a record 39 weeks in the top 10 of the Hot 100, influenced his future sound that indicated a shift away from hip hop or the trap that he did earlier in his career into pop, more R&B, more singing, and even soft rock, you know, and it communicates a softer Post Malone or maybe even a maturity compared to his previous work. You know, in 2023, Post Malone is a dad. He's recovering from alcoholism. So he has mellowed out a bit, both in image and in song. Yeah, he's in his Pilates phase. That's what I'm saying.

He's also doing what the producer Doug Fensky once told me is the Justin Timberlake method. Now, what is that? So when Justin Timberlake released Future Sex Love Sounds in 2006, there was the pivotal song, What Goes Around, Comes Around. In the second half of the song, there is this total switchup into a different feeling and extends the song to over seven minutes long. Surprisingly, this seven minute plus song was one of the biggest hits off that album. So what did Timberlake do on the next album? he leaned into the thing that was super successful from the one before. When he releases the 2020 experience, much later in 2013, let's count the number of songs over seven minutes.

Push your love girl. One. Don't hold the wall. Two. Strawberry bubble gum. Three. Tunnel vision is clocking in at 6.46. Spaceship coop.

Five. Let the groove get in. Seven. Seven. Eight of 12 songs. That's crazy. So that's the Justin Timberlake method. take the thing that was a bit of a departure from the album before that is a big success and follow

that artistic choice. I feel like Post Malone had a circles moment two albums ago and realized if I go further in that direction, maybe that can be the new sound. Yes. So knowing that, let's take a look at the third single from this record, Overdrive. Immediately, I'm hearing similarities to circles. It has a heavily acoustic meandering beat, it's melodic, it's guitar heavy. Knowing that Post Malone played the guitar on every track on this album, it's something that is come to be expected. But nonetheless, it's very circles adjacent, more so than White Iverson adjacent. Yeah, and it also has a major change in rhythm. This is your straightforward rock and roll rhythm. This is the I Will Rock You Rhythm.

Boom, boom, come. Boom, boom. It's both a very simple rhythm, but for post-Malone, it's far from the more hip-hop-oriented records like we heard on White Iverson. I'd even go so far to say that it is reflective, like, guitar rock from the 90s. Yeah, the first time I heard this song, I thought, I've got to text Dan Wilson from Semi-Sonic, who'd be on the show before, and be like, how do you feel about this song?

Because it's the same chord progression. as closing time. Take that song and pitch it up a bit, you get closing time. And that little piano riff, I feel like they even sort of lifted it for overdrive. Well, I thought the guitar sounded more like, Where is My Mind by The Pixies? Yeah, and Overdrive is a little slower, kind of like the Pixies.

So we've got like a semi-sonic Pixies hybrid 90s rock thing happening with Post Malone. It's very nostalgic. It's fitting to be nostalgic. He's looking back thinking about how he's been living his life on overdrive and needs to make a change. And it's even appropriate, I think, to reference rock and roll music, which also is known for kind of living in the fast lane. Yes, and he keeps these lyrical themes throughout the album. I think another track that indicates this vibe shift is the song Something Real. That is a strange song.

the chorus, not the section of the chorus, but the chorus of people singing behind him. Yeah, yeah. Did you notice the strange time signature, also very sort of Prague rocky? There's a random bar of two beats in there. You can really hear this strange way of counting the song in the verse. One, two, one, two, one, two, three, four. That is a very non-pop, non-hip-hop way of building your groove. I mean, frankly, it indicates a major change.

I think musically is saying, hey, I'm looking for something real amongst all the things that aren't quite going right. The rhythm is a little bit off-kilter. Really, the places that we hear these kinds of rhythms come from maybe bluegrass. Oftentimes, we'll have random bars of two dropped in. It comes from Irish fiddle music. You'll hear the same thing and perhaps Balkan music as well. But it's uncommon to hear these strange rhythms, especially in a pop record. I guess you could say maybe Prague music would also do the same.

So a lot of different places that Post Malone might be drawing from. The signature is incredibly interesting. What I also find interesting is the massive gospel choir. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That is backing up him at the beginning of the song. It's something that he's used before on songs like I Fall Apart from Stony. Oh, yeah. But something real feels almost like a gospel choir.

It's so massive. I think this is fitting. I mean, this is a song where he's like reaching out asking for help. It feels as though we've walked into a cathedral. And he's praying to God. Like, give me something real. And backing up that prayer, that ask is this choir. It's not just a random production choice.

It's very fitting. And his vocal performance, aside from the choir, reflects that. later in the song, he is almost screaming. This clip highlights what is compelling about Post Malone's voice. It's untrained, but it contains so much emotion. It's raw. It feels like his voice is about to crack. His vibrato is not classical. It's not the right way to do it, but it's his way.

He feels like he's pleading honestly, and I think that is relatable to people. Yeah, it reflects a larger theme on the album of going back to Post Malone's roots and centering himself both sonically and lyrically. What this album does is invoke, quote unquote, something real. The album is named Austin, Post Malone's first name. And by making his album self-titled, it continues a tradition of self-titled records, working to represent the quote-unquote real side of artists. Lady Gaga named her fifth album Joanne, her middle name. Janet Jackson named her eighth studio album Demita Joe, also after her middle name. And they're both mid-career transitional periods for these artists. So it really makes sense that on his fifth album, Post Malone wants to re-center himself

in his music and create this music that honestly feels very true to him. I would say that it's worth interrogating the idea about how he's marketed the album, that it is so heavily about him playing acoustic guitar on the entire thing. There is within pop music the whole vein of rockism that says rock music, guitar-oriented music is more real than other kinds of music. It's authentic, yeah. Yeah, right, that it's more authentic. I think there's a certain amount in which things can feel stripped back so you feel

a little more close to the artist. But I think we heard similar things happening on the Travis Scott where some of the auto tune was removed. that we were hearing a little more closely, some of the inflection in his voice. There's all kinds of ways in which I think we can reflect realness. I think acoustic guitars are not necessary and that it's worth thinking about whether or not that is leaning into all kinds of tropes about rock and roll. So maybe these two records, what they're doing by reflecting these mid-career points

is just showing more of the artists at their core. Pop music is trying to find its next. big genre. Only time will tell, though, if it's trap music unplugged or electro-industrial house. Switched-on-pop is produced by Rihanna Cruz, edited by Art Chung. This week, we're engineered by Bill

Lance, illustrations by Iris Gottlieb, community management by Abby Bar. Our executive producer is Nashak Kerwa, and a member of the Vox Media Podcast Network and a production of Vulture. You can find us atSwitchedonpop.com, where we got some nice merch for you, and on social media at Switched on Pop. to hear from you some of your other favorite artists that have gone through mid-career musical moments.

How did they do it? How did the music reflect that change? Tell us on social media again at Switch on Pop. We'll be back again next week with another installment in our series Wonders about one-hit wonders that were bigger than you ever knew. And until then, thanks for listening. The world. The incredible system of Pago of Shopify facilitation the site of your

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