Switched on Pop - The Side Effects of Pop Music with Emily Warren

Episode Date: September 18, 2018

Emily Warren is one of the great rising stars of contemporary songwriting. Her song "Side Effects" with The Chainsmokers is currently rising up the charts. You’ve also heard her writing on Dua Lipa���s "New Rules." She’s collaborated with many of the best performers in music earning her a Grammy and multi-platinum success with “Don’t Let Me Down.” She's also recently released her single "Paranoid." Emily is a real songwriters songwriter. Her process is as much therapy as art. Together we break down her latest work and uncover her creative process. Her album "Quiet Your Mind" is out on October 5th. Songs discussedThe Chainsmokers - Side EffectsBach - Prelude in F# Minor from the Well Tempered ClavierEmily Warren - Paranoidbülow - You & JenniferTeyana Taylor - Gonna Love MeNick Jonas - Touch Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

If you're tired of endless scrolling to figure out where to eat, same. I'm Stephanie Wu, editor-in-chief of Eater. We've just launched the new-ish and way better Eater app. It has all the restaurants we love, gives you personalized picks wherever you are, and serves up smarter search results just for you. You can find my list of the best places for martinis and fries in New York City. And save your favorite spots, share lists, follow editors, and book right in the app. the Eater app at Eaterapp.com. It's free for iOS users. Welcome to Switchdown Pop. I'm the songwriter

Charlie Harding. And I'm musicologist Nate Sloan. And I want to welcome one of the greatest rising stars of contemporary songwriting. Her song's side effects with the chain smoker's is currently rising up the charts. You've heard her writing on Duo Lepa's new rules. She's collaborated with many of the best performers in the music industry earning her a Grammy and multi-platinum success and has recently released her own single, Paranoid. It's my pleasure to Welcome Emily Warren to the show. Thank you. Yeah.

I am so excited to get to talk about your work, and I think it would be appropriate to just get to share with everybody your music before we really dive into things. So I want to spin the beginning of side effects. Awesome. It's four am I closed? Be to take a meteor for door. I love that. Oh, thank you. I don't know if it's the groove or the caffeine, but I feel amazing right now.

It's good. Such a good track. So tell us what's going on in the song. What is a song about? It's not about much to be honest. It's, uh, which is very different from me. I think I've in the past couple years made such a thing out of being so thoughtful in the lyrics that it's created kind of a world of pressure around writing sometimes. And this is one of those days that I was just like, let's just pick like a small topic and just like not go too into the story too into the details. Um, I was working with these guys, Corey Sanders and Sly Siverstein and Copenhagen at a writing camp.

And Corey kind of spent the first, I mean, I was asking questions about this relationship he's going through. We talked about it for a little, but then we just started having fun and slide whipped this track together or close to this track together really quickly. And then we just had the best day. We were laughing all day, having fun. And the song, I think, is a reflection of how we were feeling. Yeah.

And then that night, I woke up in the middle of the night. to like 15 miss calls and text from the tape. Like, what is this song side effects? Corey's A&R had sent it and they were like, we need this, we're putting it out as the next single, we're stopping everything and putting this out and want you to stay on it. And I was like, it's like actually four in the morning

and I was like, what? I couldn't fall asleep again. Yeah. It's overwhelming. It's overwhelming. And like that never, ever happens in terms of turnaround. Like it was that day having it be, they're putting it out.

It's like literally record-breaking time usually takes like a year. Yeah, nice. Yeah. One of my favorite things about what's going on in the song for me is the indecision in relationship. Yeah. We're going to do it. We're not going to do it. And I think that you established that really beautifully in the first verse.

Yeah. I want to play that again real. Yeah, of course. Late night, booty call. Not sure if it's a good idea. Yeah. That's what's going on. Yeah, exactly.

But kind of like, feeling like, is this the right thing? Yeah. And I think that you do such an amazing job of then sort of switching to this sort of internal narrative in the pre-chorus where there's like a moment of almost hesitation. Mm-hmm. I love this moment. Yeah. I love this moment. Thank you.

Nate you playing footsie with me? No, I'm just getting excited. I think I know where this is going. There's so much happening here. It's such a perfect little moment and it contains multitudes. So first of all, we get the song's title. Yeah.

The side effects. And I think it's just a beautiful metaphor. Do you recall how this metaphor came to you? That was Corey's idea, actually. After we had spoken for a long time, he was like, I just really want to write a song called side effects. And we're like, okay, cool.

But I think it's fun putting the title not, I mean, a lot of times you feel like you have to make the title of the big wow moment at the end of the chorus or beginning of the chorus. And I think this is the only time side effects comes by in the song. And that was cool. I think because it puts a little more weight on that lyric, which is kind of the crux of the meaning of the song. But yeah, then the chorus is just kind of like fun from there.

Yeah, totally. And in this moment, everything kind of breaks down. You have these sort of dark pads and simple piano, all the bass and all the energy and excitement has dropped out. And I think for me, I really sort of get that sense of that internal hesitation, but also perhaps like realization of, oh, I know what's going to happen here. And then you get that nice sort of like EDM riser moment and boom. And you planned in the chorus and you get all that energy back. But there's something even more about this, which I just absolutely love. And a number of listeners actually on Twitter had pointed this out. I think even before we knew you were going to be

coming on the show, a lot of people saying, oh, you have got to talk to him. Warren, there is something amazing happening on this track. Nate, do you know what I'm talking about? You mean because we move from the minor chord to the parallel major. Yeah. And it's very surprising. It's very exciting. And that's why I played footsie with you.

Yeah. This is a really cool moment where all of a sudden there's been, you talk about like hesitation back and forth. And the song sort of feels clearly in C minor because the bass riff is sort of like the simple pentatonic thing. Right. Though I also really like the in the bass. There's this like jumping between octaves constantly and sort of also that same uncertainty

of which direction might it go. But that openness of the base harmony gives you space to all the sudden throw in the major third. And you sing what I believe Nate, Nate and I took a bunch of classical music classes. Yeah, you got this. You got this. College. Yeah. It's the pickerty third.

Very good. Wow. The pickerty third. Ah, great. Enlighten me. Nate. You got our sound cue. So we have a little section that we call classical masters where we like to go into the past

and look at how things from the past draw all the way into the present. So Nate, what is this thing to Pickardy Third? It's, I mean, it does describe exactly what's happening in this pre-chorus, which is great. And it's rare to hear because it's this technique that dates back to the Renaissance. It was very common, you know, during the 1400s, 1500s, and then has kind of like fallen away. And it's a very simple thing. It's like, you're a composer, you're Bach, say, you're Johann Sebastian, and you're like, you know, writing this minor key fugue or prelude or corral or something. And it's all in minor and it's very dark and heavy.

And then you get to the final chord. And instead of ending in that minor key that you started with, what the tradition tells you to do is to not end on that sad note, but just make one little change and take the third. of that final minor chord and just bump it up a semitone to make it a major triad. So it's this at once like, I guess it's supposed to be the happy ending that you crave. It feels so Protestant having grown up into England. It's like, everything might be bad, but actually, no, it's like everything's fine. Don't worry about it. End with a bow.

Wow, that's really. We will have to get into that at a later point. Both in the pre-chorus of side effects and in, say, the F-sharp minor praise. of box well-tempered clavier, you do have the sense like, whoa, it's like this jarring shift. And it's supposed to make you feel positive. But maybe there's also something that leaves you like a little unsettled too about it. Do you want to play the box? Yeah, let's hear it.

So it's all F-sharp minor here. F-sharp minor. F-sharp major at the end. That's amazing. And like for the majority of Bach's career, every time he gets to the end of the song, it just goes to the major. And it's so weird in a way. It's like it doesn't give you that minor resolution you expect. Right.

And again, I think there's something like at once like, oh, I feel, well, that's good. I feel happy. Now I got a major chord. But then the other hand, you're like, what am I missing here? There's something more to the story. And I think that brings us back to side effects. Do you ever know that you had so much in common with Johan's question? No, truly I didn't.

And honestly, I'm now thinking about how meta this is, which is I've done the previous chain smoker songs that have come out this. year with them, which are all very, like, introspective and emo, which is, like, kind of what we were going for. Yeah. Just because that's what they were experiencing. And I think Drew from the Transorgers and I had a talk, like, right before I wrote side effects.

And we were just saying, you know, it's great to kind of indulge in this sadness. But I think also it's summertime. And in general, like, in the history of music, it's not always the best to, how do I explain this? Let me back up for one second. I went to the Van Gogh Museum in Amsterdam two years ago, and it really struck me. But one thing in particular really struck me was this painting of his room.

It's a famous painting, like really bright colors, twin bed. And the plaque next to it said that this was when he'd checked himself into a mental institution, and it was like the brightest he'd ever painted. And the reason behind that was that he wanted to paint what would make him feel better, not how he felt. and I always try and think about that with songwriting just because I'm inclined to write the sad slow jam always

but I don't think I think when you're sad you don't necessarily I mean you do want to hear sad music for a second but then you kind of want to hear something that makes you feel better and I think in a meta connection between that one little moment and I think this song and the line of songs that have been coming out with the chain smokers it's exactly that it's like it's not quite like a happy happy song it's still kind of got darkness in it but it is

is the little light at the end of that little thing. I love that. Yeah. I'm going to think of that Van Gogh painting every time I hear this song. I mean, certainly when you're listening to the radio, you want something that has a little bit of light and a little bit of dark to grab you. Otherwise, I think you tend to just turn the dial, you know? It's like a little too much brightness, a little too much darkness.

It's something I really enjoy about your writing. I think you do a good job at sort of being in some sort of in-beenbit. between emotion. Thank you very much. That's the goal. Yeah. It puts you in this sort of like, you're sort of like, you're sort of like, you're sort of levitating in some sort of stasis of like, I'm not sure if it's going to go good or bad and it makes you want to find out. It keeps you sticking around. Right. Amazing. Thank you. I think in this song, one of, one of my favorite things that you do is moving from this, you know, in the opening, it could be darker, especially when you hear the pre-chorus and everything drops out and it could have gone in a much

darker place and all of a sudden to get these really fun house piano chords and it's extremely upbeat and fun. And what I like that you do next is that the song kind of breathed. It expands. You all of a sudden add a bunch of sections that you didn't anticipate at the beginning. Doing some somewhat untraditional ways of surprising us with pop form. So the first thing I caught was you add a post chorus. Right? Right. Usually a chorus is the same thing repeated with, you know, some small variation, but you actually extend the chorus and add a post chorus. The next time that we hear it. So the chorus is now twice as long. It shifts the energy and creates an even higher point in the track. I love that. Amazing. Thank you. You then keep building things out

by throwing in this pretty interesting bridge, which is a sung talk bridge. And you're singing this as a duet or talk singing it as a duet, right? Yeah. There's so much I got a message I take on my pride Every time we're addressing Draw the line I'm out of the line There's so much I like here

Yeah We're like bridge junkies Yeah We love a good bridge It's rare It's I know I know I actually

We recently posted to Twitter About what do you feel like It's missing In pop songwriting We've got a lot Really intelligent Great musical ears And Twitter following people

And like I think pretty much Everybody was like I need a middle eight Give me a bridge Where are those bridges at? Yeah. Where is that confounded bridge? Yeah.

I mean, I feel it a lot too. You're in a session for like eight hours and you've done everything. You've recorded the vocals and someone's like, we need a bridge. And you're like, nah. I'm leaving. That's very revealing. Someone was telling me recently that they were working with a writer who started with the bridge. So it was like, fret.

They started with the bridge because then you knew you had it. It was fresh. But the thing is, like, it isn't. actually isn't worth it to just do a bridge that sucks because there's a lot. I mean, you can tell that it's hour eight and people were like, let's just do a bridge and repeat some line from the pre-course. But yeah, it's good to have a good bridge. I feel like this song really earns it. Our title, side effects, where, and all right, but my loneliness is you, we get for just a moment at the beginning, which is queuing us to think like, oh, this could go dark. And by the time

we're in the bridge, we are in a totally different terrain. Yeah. And so, you know, you've let things open up by giving us a post-course. And now you've given us this bridge and you take us back into the chorus. You have a little down chorus, which is great, which is really smart because you've doubled the chorus. Now you have the opportunity to bring something down and build it back up. And then you end with a bridge. What's wrong with you?

What were you thinking? No one does this. This is extraordinary. We were all like, we need that part again. Yeah. You got to put that in. When is, you basically have, what's amazing about your bridge is it's basically a second hook.

Right. Right? Like you just done like hook on. hook on hook on hook. You gave me an extra hook with the post chorus. You give me another hook with the bridge and you're like screw it. That's the new hook. We've like we've shifted everything into the bridge now. What's funny actually about this session is I have voice notes from it actually because I recently had Corey send them to me but like it was not written in order like normally you start with the hook or I like to start with the hook because then you know kind of where

everything's going but it was literally like when Sly started playing these chords every melody sounded good on them. So we were just like what is what section? and I think the chorus actually was probably the last piece that came together. So, I mean, we were like, let's just make every section really hooky. But, I mean, that takes like the right track and the right vibe in the room and the right energy to be able to do that. So it's a testament to everyone in the room. I think, you know, you said at the beginning that this song isn't about a whole lot, right? It's a very relatable experience.

Yeah. But it's not, it doesn't seem like it's highly particular to any one individual experience. that said, I think what you've done so well is in answering the question of like, how do I feel about this late night thing? The song tells you how it feels by going from this very sort of introspective spot to this super bridge at the end where there's just sort of no questioning that everyone's having a really good time. Right. So I think, you know, it's one of these things where you have a simple, relatable, and it's sort of even common message. This is just another silly little love song. And yet the form of the track perfectly melds with what you're trying to say,

even if it's this very simple little nugget. Yeah, thank you. Brilliant. Thanks. What's on your mind? You're looking introspective. Yeah, I'm just thinking a lot of thoughts over here. I guess you're saying that the craft of the song can be as important as the meaning or the message of the song lyrically.

as in like the lyrics are saying one thing but the whole construction of the song the whole tapestry is is saying something else to you as a listener like a baroque tapestry i mean i'm just i'm just thinking i'm just thinking oh yeah well we can go back and back i'm just thinking about how you said you know this song just started with a title and then sort of emerged from there and i just love that because i was reading about this song firestone recently by Kaiga. Oh, yeah. And I was like, and it's so powerful in this like image of like these firestones, these like mythic burning symbols for eternity.

And I was like, Firestone, where did that come from? And then I was reading about it. And the songwriter who was like probably Swedish or something was driving in L.A. and saw a billboard for Firestone tires. And then that became this like epic, you know, mythic love song. So it's just, I just think there's, it's so fascinating how you take one thing and then through the process itself is what turns it into art, you know? Yeah.

And I think I'm always learning that there's no correct way to write a song. I think I'll now say that this is how you should write a song until the next one. It's like there's really no way. Inspiration comes from all different places and in all different forms, and there's all different ways to cultivate it and dig through it. So, yeah. I think one of the things you've just done really well here is you've really served the song. Like you have this one idea and then you just go deeper and deeper and making sure that that idea is sort of comes to life and whatever form it needs to take.

Sweet. Thank you. I want to talk a lot more about your music in the second half because you have an exceptional track, paranoid. And I want to talk a little bit more about your songwriting process as well. We've got some listener questions that we want to bring to too. Sweet. Maria, you have a podcast now and you need to start acting like it. What's the first step as a podcaster? Well, you have to ask lots of questions.

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who's coming into the United States at any given time. The view on immigration from the bottom up instead of the top down. That's this week on America Actually. Every Saturday in your audio and video feeds. So, Emily, you've just released a track of your own call, paranoid, and it's fantastic. I think like side effects,

it has this quality of being suspended between two emotions. You're always scared I'm going to leave You're always scared that I'll start packing out my bags Where you're asleep I never come back And you're afraid you'll miss the signs You try to pick up all the clues The things that build up over time

But it's not like that It just isn't like that Can you tell us the story inside of the song? Yeah, I think This is something that was kind of permeating my whole relationship and I think I just kept hearing when talking to other people about it that it's a very common thing of especially I was doing long distance

and how there's just always so much uncertainty about what's actually going on and how much you can convince yourself with just one little thought and go down the whole rabbit hole of inventing a whole story. So I wanted to kind of put that all to bed in a song. And yet everything is really real and really honest in this one. You come into this song almost like a coach, you're like coaching your partner. It's like, don't worry.

It's chill. I like that there's so many characters here. There's you, it's your partner, and then there's the voice in their head. Yeah. And so there's the third wheel here that's that extra voice, which is just like the sabotaging voice. Yeah. And you're like, chill out. That voice is bad.

Don't listen to it. Yeah, definitely. That's a cool message. Oh, thank you. And when you're sort of doing that coaching, something really bizarre happens to your voice. Don't listen to that voice, darling, there's no need to be paranoid. Don't they say it's just noise. Darling, don't be paranoid.

What's going on? What's happened to your voice? Well, I love the vote coder. Yes. This vote coder involved. But I think we'd written this melody, and it was just really kind of simple. And I wanted to sing it quietly like that. And when we put it on the track, I was like, wait, wait, let's pull all the instruments

out. And then we just thought of, there's a bunch of songs I was listening to at the time that used Vogue Coder in the chorus and that I was really inspired by. And yeah, I just think sometimes it's good to pull everything out and do that just to really focus on what's being said. And I think that melody and lyric is a little bit confusing just because it doesn't repeat exactly after every line has finished. It's kind of cut off.

So yeah, it just stylistically, I think we just wanted to try Vododer and it. It worked. Yeah. For me, this was another moment where I feel. like the song earned its production technique, right? The vocoder is incredibly popular, especially in a lot of EDM tracks. Like Zed uses it a lot. Right.

And I think you get a sort of similar breakdown on the middle. Right. But here you're talking about like, don't listen to that voice. And I feel like the vocoder is like the other voice. It's kind of like it's all of the dark, all that sabotaging voice happening. And what I love is as the chorus progresses, the vocoder fades and your voice cuts through the mix. Yeah.

To suggest that your coaching is working. Whoa. There we go. I mean, I know that these are probably choices that are just like, I bet that sounds good. Exactly. But I think the song, like it just, it also on whatever subtle level, it is reinforcing that message really beautifully. Oh, amazing.

I also, I had this other, you know, completely absurd realization that you have these cycling chords, you have this message of, you know, don't listen to that other voice. and everything's going to be okay. And I feel like there's a musical moment that also reinforces that like, no, everything is okay. And I actually can hear it right in the very beginning. So you have this sequenced little synth line

and it stays on the home note the entire time as the chords recycle behind it. And I think that musically that has that same sort of quality of like there is a solidity even as things are changing. I really like how that reinforces that message. Okay, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. You're saying the synth line, the line that's going like, d-da-d-d-d-da-da-d-da-d-d-d-d-d-d-d.

It's saying the same while underneath the base is moving. Yeah. Okay, so you'd be the synth line. Dund-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da. Okay, you're a little off, Charlie, but... I didn't get your note. Okay, that's cool. So, wait, so what does that represent for you?

I think that is the... That is your voice. that like, what did I say? You can probably sit. The comfort that that's like, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's the comfort of security. That's great. Did not think of that. I love that.

I think there's a lot of fun production stuff that's happening on this song because you're using all sorts of techniques from what feel like almost heavier dance music. You've got big subby 808s. There are these synth noise risers that are happening. But the song does feel very. very intimate. What were you thinking about and sort of pairing

those two things together? How did you arrive at that sound? That's a good question. I think it was a lot of just kind of what came out of the room that day sounded very close

to what this sounds like now. There was a few versions that the producer Nick Ruth had done where he was like, it has to drop after the chorus. We have to go to a drop. And I was like, I think it's actually sick

if you think it's going to and it doesn't. And it just goes into the second verse. There's a Nick Jonas song that's just on his album called Touch that does a similar thing that I always thought was so sick and such an underrated song because you I think having that feeling like it's going to drop and then just hitting the second verse is really effective and interesting like the song doesn't really ever explode except the last chorus is kind of like I'm singing full voice but I think that

there's a cool tension in that and I think I obviously love EDM in its own way but I don't think it's my style necessarily. So I think kind of combining that feeling the tension and the rising and stuff like that, but not fully going there and leaving it like soft singing and things like that is kind of a melding of the worlds. So many EDM and drops have a sort of disembodied voice where the voice becomes subservient to whatever the synth line is and the bass and the kick. I don't think that would work well for what you're doing here because you have such a wonderful affect that does feel very personal, it would have been very strange to have ripped that apart and all of a sudden, right, by Emily, see you later.

Waw, wah, waw, that wouldn't be right. I do love that idea of sort of hinting, using all of the instrumentation and production techniques of like, this could be a really big dance song. Yeah. Again, we should probably call David Gatta and do a little remix. Throw it up a few BPM. It would be a fun remix, but I think this was really effective. Oh, thank you.

I wanted to ask you a little bit of. about some of your craft. Later today, I hear you're doing a double songwriting session. So it sounds like you are constantly busy. And I had a few questions that I want to ask you about how you go work as a songwriter. And we also have some listener questions that I want to share as well. So I just wanted to ask, first of all, what goes into preparation for you as you go into a session? It kind of depends where I'm at.

I think my favorite thing, at least recently, is to just go in the room without any preparation, really. I mean, beyond just having listened to music and maybe playing a few songs at the beginning of session, but in terms of lyrical content, I've found especially working with artists and with writers that it's best to just get in the room and have a conversation, even if that's four or five hour conversation and just generally in that time something is said

that's worth developing. And I mean, I used to go into the room with like a list of glow in the dark and then you have to try and make stuff, make sense with that, and that's really hard. But yeah, I think the outcome is a lot more personal and therefore potentially relatable if it's just about a real thing that's happening. But yeah, that's pretty much it. I mean, I think when I'm writing for myself, I do like to take some time and kind of think about, since I'm not there to ask myself those questions in the room, to kind of just

think about what I'm feeling. and if there's any lines from books or the world or anything that are inspiring me. I mean, it's something so cool to me about listening to these two songs back to back and having you in the room with us is that you realize that even though the end product in both of them is like a really moving, powerful, personal song, the genesis of each of them was so different. And with side effects, yeah, just kind of emerging sort of spontaneously out of the ether and paranoid at being a more personal and based in your own experience.

And yet at the end, the result is still two tracks that you wouldn't know, I think, listening to them, oh, this one is personal and this one is improvised. Which I guess is all to say that, you know, as music journalists or critics or whatever, like we can make assumptions about what went into a song, but we don't really know how it came about. Anyway, sorry, please continue. Half of it does, we just don't care. We just go, here's what it means to me, which is also one of the most beautiful parts about it.

Exactly. That's kind of why I like keeping things personal and honest, because then people do make their own interpretations. If it's like a truth nugget. So when you're in the room and a truth nugget comes out, or do you have like a notebook in front of you where like, that's the line? Yeah. Well, yeah, I usually have my computer and I'm just taking notes while people are talking. Do you usually go for the five-piece truth nugget? or the 10 piece

10 piece truth nugget yeah spilling okay sorry ask another question and let's pretend this never happened he has a PhD in psychology

not anymore so you've heard the term truth nugget it's just minors into oh yeah it's called university how do you know when you hear it

I think you just know I think I really love especially with artists really pushing them and asking crazy questions and making them say things they're not saying. I think I found maybe three or four years ago I did that in a session kind of just by accident because I was working with these twin girls and I'm a twin. So I just was like I couldn't stop asking questions about what it was.

I'm a boy girl twins and they're girl girl twins and I was fascinated. And the songs we were writing were like nuts. I mean I saw these two girls being like, well, you make me feel like this and I'm jealous about this. And it was like, I was just like, wait a second. this is how I have to write songs and it's it's become I'm so interested especially I think artists have these crazy lives and there's so much putting a face on and putting a front on and when you really are like what's going on with you nine times out of ten they're like oh no one ever asks me that

you know and then they're just ready to talk so you're kind of the same therapeutic coach in paranoid as you are in the songwriting sessions I mean a lot of times people are like do I need to pay you for therapy actually I'm but I mean, I love it. I just love talking to people and hearing about that. I always feel like, I mean, and I travel a lot to write. It's like meeting someone in a bar and asking them a million questions. So it's just, it's fun for me.

And I think when someone says something that resonates with you, that's when you're like, all right, I have a completely different life from you. And we've both felt this like, this is something we need to write about. So, yeah. I want to go to some questions that a bunch of listeners on Twitter and Instagram. So we post a switch down pop and we said, you know, you're coming on in. And so people had some questions. Some of these, if you're like, nah, we can skip over then.

That's fine. So this is from top 40 theory. First of all, that's amazing. EW is awesome. Has a bunch of questions for you. So what's your take on the balance between making something new that will stand out and making the song fit into a genre? Does one come before the other in the process?

Do you even think about it? I don't really think about it. I think thinking about it is where you get yourself into trouble just because you can't anticipate and you can't recreate something. And I think that when you go into some sessions and the ANR comes in and was like, this was happening to me after I wrote, don't let me down. It was every session I went in, I'd write a song.

They'd be like, ah, can you write something more? Like, don't let me down. And I was like, no, that's already happened. You don't want that. So, yeah, I think I'm always conflicted too about listening to kind of what's coming out or not because I think it's sort of good to know what's going on if you like it, but it's also things change so quickly.

I don't think they're changed because people are intentionally like, this is the sound now. It's just kind of like what you're inspired by and what you make. So yeah, I do think though, like, and part of the reason we were, I was telling you before we started about my feelings about L.A., but part of the reason it's,

I find it hard here is there's a lot of, just because of the culture, there's so much chasing of sounds. There's so much like, well, Post-Mullin's doing this. we need to make something like this, this, this, and this. And it's like so confining when you're trying to just be creative. So yeah, I think if you think it's cool, it's probably going to be cool.

If someone else is telling you what's cool, like it can get confusing. Side effects, I think is a great example, right? It stands out both in the chain smokers catalog as sounding really different than their other singles and brings a sort of sound that I'm not hearing a lot on the charts, all these sort of great house throwbacks and really. fun. Thank you. Thank you. Top 40 Theory also wants to know,

do you ever think about Max Martin's melodic math? Yeah, I mean, I signed to Dr. Luke when I first moved out here and a lot of, at that time in particular, this is like six years ago. I think five or six years ago. That was like really, it was coming off the heels of like TikTok

and Teenage Dream and all those kind of songs that are very, like, you would never hear a rhythm in the second verse that wasn't in the first verse. Right. Like, even if the lyric, I mean, I used to get melodies from Luke

where I'd have to write lyrics to it. And my A&R would be like, just try and fit the words into the melody. And it's a good exercise, but I think, and I don't know, I haven't been paying close enough attention to what Max is doing now to know

if that's still as strict as it once was, but I think music has shifted from that. And I think back at that time, concept and melody were king, and melody still is important, but lyrics are really important. now and story is really important. And I think to sacrifice what you're trying to say in order to get the math right, for me at least is slightly backwards, but obviously it works for

Max and his people. Could you break down in your sense of what melodic math means? Yeah. So there's a couple of things that are actually are, I shouldn't say that I don't think about it because there are a few things I do think about that I learned when I first started writing, which is like, the verse should be lower than the pre. Yeah. And the chorus should be the highest. Or Or if the chorus isn't going to be the highest, it needs to be like somewhere totally different. I think just differentiating the sections is the most important thing. And I think we all kind of think about,

you hear this in the room all the time. Like if the verse is starting on the one beat, then the priest shouldn't also start on the one and the course shouldn't start on the one. Like some should come before, some after. And that's just because like if sections are too similar, it just gets boring.

Yeah. So that's one. People used to talk about, I can't even remember now if it's the third or the fifth, but that the chorus should start on the third or the fifth. I think it's the fifth. Maybe it's the third. Don't know.

But yeah, those are the kinds of things. And then also just like keeping, if you do one rhythm and melody in the first verse, then keep it the same in the second verse. Although now you'll hear second verses that are like completely have nothing to do with the first verse. And that's really interesting, exciting. So I think a lot of interesting things have grown

out of that era just because that kind of got tiring. And now it's like, what can we do to make things different now? Dan Berg asks, do you use any music theory, knowledge, and techniques when writing? Do you have any examples of them or does it just come from gut instinct when you're in the room? It's funny, because we were saying earlier, I went to the Berkeley five-week thing when I was in high school, I think. And I kind of struggled there just because I played a... song for a theory teacher and he was like, do you mean that chord? And I was like, yes. And I also had a

guitar teacher for a while that was so theory driven that she would say the same type of shit to me. And I was just like, I'm so happy I know some theory and kind of have it on the back burner, but I don't know if it's right to lead with theory. It's another one of those things. It's just like confining kind of if you go into the room with like a box, then it's just harder to be creative. But when you get stuck. Yeah. And you don't know where the chorus should go. That's when theory is really helpful.

Just even knowing kind of like where you can go with the chords or that kind of stuff, like that, that is really helpful. So as kind of a toolbox and not the driving force, I think theory is good. But I honestly, it's hard to say if I'm using it that much. I don't know if it's just in the back of my mind. But I definitely am not like whipping out theory in sessions. That's so funny. I mean, it feels like it makes me think of my Jewish mother.

like, you know, asking a question that's really a statement, like, did you mean to use that cord? She'd be like, did you mean to wear that shirt today? Yep. I'd be like. You're like, say no more. I see what you're getting at. Finally, wanted to ask from Daryl Milton, are you related to one of the greatest songwriters

of all time, Diane Warren? I knew that was coming. No, I'm not. He also asked, you get asked that all the time. I do indeed. Warren's my middle name, so. Right on. So no relation there

But I like the comparison I'll take it That's a good one right Yeah seriously We had asked you also To bring in a couple of songs That you're really enjoying right now And I wanted to see if you wanted to share

Any tracks that you're just loving Yeah I love you and Jennifer by Bulo If you heard that I haven't heard this no Space Gakes in a Big Mac I'm a space case But I'm sure that all my friends fake

Because they told me that She wasn't real It was all in my head I imagine that Paul Sparks at the manning that's in and outside of a Walmart Now I'm sitting here wondering when in this all start Fuck you and Jennifer I know that you're out with her

Go pretend that you're just friends I'll pretend that I'm not hurt I know all the shit I hurt You can take these bitter words Fuck you and Jennifer Go fucking make up to her Have you listened to Teyana Taylor's album? No

Oh okay, what's going on here? So good Kanye produced it She's the girl who's in the fade video. Oh, yeah, yeah. Who's dancing? Which is so insane because I remember seeing that video and being like, who is she?

And now she has an album out, also. What speaks to you about it? It's so good. I mean, the use of samples and it is amazing. the lyrics are amazing. It reminds me sort of of of Siza in the sense that it's like sometimes you don't know where the chorus is

or what the chorus is and the melodies are all over the place and it takes a couple of listens and then by the second or third listen of the whole album you're like this is the best thing I can't stop listening to it. Yeah, I had the same feeling

like when I first listened to the FK Twigs album being like wait, where am I? What's happening? Yeah. And then you hear it two or three times you're like it's indelible. It's like this is always existed.

It's the best. Right, which is really cool. I mean, music right now is like you're supposed to get the song on the first listen. So for there to be music coming out now that's like takes patience and people are giving it patience is a really good indication of where we're at or where we're headed at least. We did a whole piece about Bjork's latest album, Utopia, which is a really exceptional album. And one of those things where you can't be doing something else. It really demands your attention. And it also grabs

your attention. I love pieces that do that. Yeah. And they do exactly. And they do and maybe like a slightly different place, but the way people are listening now is so varied and not as dominated by a single distribution space or there's room for, that kind of stuff. Right, which is amazing. I'm really excited to go find Nick Jonas' touch after this and check that out.

It's quite a song. I had a phase with that song, right? Surprise chorus, yeah. I didn't want to listen to anything else. It's so sick. It's like acoustic guitar and great. Amazing. love it. Nick Jonas Deep cuts.

Gotta love the Nick Jonas deep cuts. I was in a writing camp actually with one of the writers on it and I was like reference. I didn't know. And I was referencing the song. It was like, oh, I did that. And I was like, no. And then I was Star Shuck. It's been really fun to have you on the show.

It's been fun being here. Thank you. I hope that whatever happens in your next two sessions today are the next two number one hits on the charts. Or whatever you want them to be. Yeah, there you go. Hopefully we'll break him down with you. Some later date. Hell yeah.

Just before we go, is there anything that you want to shout out in terms of anything you're promoting? Oh, yes. I have an album coming out on October 5th. Nice. So I'm very excited about that and scared. Yeah, it's called. It's called Quiet Your Mind. Cool.

Ooh. There's the therapist again. Yeah, which is really a reminder to myself. Yeah, beautiful. And yeah, and then I'm doing a couple of shows surrounding it that we're announcing next week. Keep your eyes peeled. Stay tuned. Hopefully one in L.A. I hope so.

Not saying anything. Whatever happens, we'll make sure to shout it out. Amazing. Yeah, all over the place. Thank you very much. Thanks, Emily. Of course. Switch on Popua is produced by me, Charlie Harding.

And me, Nate Sloan. Our mixing, engineering, and all sorts of good special effects and all the good stuff is done by Bill Lance. Our community manager is Sarah Terry and our design is Luke Harris. You can find more episodes at switched on pop.com or using any podcast player you prefer.

If you're on Apple Podcast, we'd love it if you do this to review. And if you're on social media, definitely hit us up on Twitter and Instagram at Switched On Pop. We'll be back in two weeks with another episode. Until then, thanks for listening. Thanks for listening.