Switched on Pop - The Women Reclaiming Nu-Metal ft. Rina Sawayama

Episode Date: July 21, 2020

Nu-Metal, the mid 90s creation that blended metal, rap and pop, is one of the most critically derided pop genres. So it is strange that this genre is having a comeback. But whereas its first incarnation was dominated by men, now women are leading the way. Artists like Poppy, Grimes and Rina Sawayama have recast the heavy guitars, sung-rap lyrics and gaudy aesthetic to fight back the patriarchy. CORRECTION: Charlie does not play pinch harmonics, but rather natural harmonics SONGS DISCUSSED Korn - Freak On A Leash Rina Sawayama - STFU! Limp Bizkit - Break Stuff Poppy - I Disagree Nine Inch Nails - Head Like A Hole Grimes, Hana - We Appreciate Power Rina Sawayama - XS Britney Spears - Gimme More Britney Spears - Toxic MORE Check out Finn McKenty's YouTube channel The Punk Rock MBA starting with his video on what killed Nu-Metal https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATllyNXF3Kg&t Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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It's free for iOS users. Welcome to Switched on Pop-Pong songwriter, Charlie Harding. And I'm musicologist Nate Sloan. Nate, what would you say was the most critically derided popular genre of the last 30 years? Scream poker. Not a genre. I know. I just made it up.

That's a tough one. I mean, pop music. How about this? Oh, man. Yeah. I don't know what that is or what to call it, but I know I've made fun of that music a lot. That is Korn's Freak on a Leash from 1999.

It is in the genre of New Metal. Yes. One of the dead giveaways is singing the word me as me. That's how you know you're listening to like, turn of the millennium new metal. Me. Would it surprise you if I told you that we're going through a new metal resurgence? I would be flabbergasted if that was the case.

I thought we were done with that era. Well, there's a lot of reasons why we might want to be, but parts of these sounds and aesthetics are on their way back. Check out Rina Sawayama's STFU. And I should probably give a curse word warning because STFU, the F stands for exactly what you think it means. This is fun. Oh man, that is really fun to listen to. Yeah, there are some amazing women taking this genre, which had been predominantly male, and reclaiming it and doing some really cool stuff with new metal.

What I'm excited to discuss today is how these women take this music, which was critically derided in its time, and do something entirely new with it. But before we can dive into their sound, I think we have to have a little bit of a new metal primer, if you will. Yes, please. I'm way overdue for this. So I have to admit that new metal is not a part of my repertoire. It is music that was happening when I was in middle school. And in my research, what I found out is that it was this incredibly commercially successful music from like 1996 to 2003, really sort of like peak MTV TRL era where you would see bands like corn and limp biscuit, kid rock and Lincoln Park making this music. It's sort of a mashup of metal, rap, and pop music.

And to understand this sound a bit better, I wanted to call up an expert that really has an encyclopedic knowledge of all heavy music. I am Finn McKinty. You may know me from the YouTube channel called The Punk Rock MBA. I dissect and try to reverse engineer trends in music and popular culture. So what McKinty tells me is that this music was a real mashup of 90s culture. New Metal comes from the intersection of everything happening in the early 90s, which would be like skate culture, alternative rock, gangster rap, and Gothic industrial kind of culture. If you smash all those things together in various different combinations, you get new metal. While this music was this sort of postmodern melange of all these different sounds, it had a very particular affectation.

I think hopelessness and feeling like you're left behind and that nobody cares about you, just being disaffected and disenfranchised and powerless and angry with no real sense that you can channel that anger into anything productive, so you're just like mad at the world. In our conversation, McKenzie even compared the success of this music to the rise of magaism, that if you watch a Lindbiscuit video from Woodstock 99, which I did last night, it's mostly white men raging in a mosh pit, letting out resentments. And it's in the music, too. I watched a live version of that song from Woodstock 99, which was a total disaster.

It was both the sort of peak of this new metal moment, and it was also, its downfall because this festival was violent. It was particularly violent towards women, many who were assaulted at the venue. I think it's impossible to disentangle this music from those actions and that anger and that violence. And appropriately, the music was criticized at the time, not just for this violence,

but also for its appropriation. There was good reason to not like this music. And I was going back to a New York Times review by the great music critic Anne Powers who described Limp Bizkit's music as matching heavy metal, the music of white working class with hip-hop.

But to feel connected with Mr. Durs, his fans must relate to his estrangement. He expresses that alienation mostly against women and implicitly against anyone who does not share his moralistic views. And this is my favorite moment where she really sort of digs into the music. This makes for a hybrid

that would be more interesting if the band did not constantly mire itself in boring tempos, and if Mr. Durst had any talent as a singer. Sick burn. But it scans. I think, you know, looking back now and remembering my friends and I making fun of Limp Bizkit, it probably had its roots in, even if we couldn't articulate it, the sense that they weren't authentic,

that they were pillaging a musical style that didn't belong to them and not doing it with really any accuracy or skill. And I guess with 20 years of hindsight, I find it strange that we're having a new metal revival, given the criticism of the music in its time. But McKenzie says that this revival is picking and choosing the different elements of new metal, which are ripe for reimagining. There are some artists who are reclaiming the sound. There are some artists who are reclaiming the aesthetic, and there aren't many, hardly any, that are doing both. So in the first category, there are these new metal revival bands. that are taking that sound and imitating it and have small followings and successful tours.

But that's what we're talking about today. The second half that he points out is the aesthetic. That's sort of like, I don't give a fuck kind of aesthetic. And he points out, you know, artists like Billy Eilish really sort of adapt that aesthetic because in the new metal period you had this really kind of like brazenly, I hate using the term, but it's all it's the best word I have. It was like a brazenly tasteless sort of aesthetic that was just bright neon colors, a mashup of sports clothing. It was like intentionally unattractive to capture attention.

And so Billy Elish uses that. And I think you can hear that sort of like, I don't give a fuck attitude in a lot of alt rap. Where I want to focus our listening today is on the women who are reappropriating that sound and aesthetic to say something. new and particularly powerful. Very quick disclaimer before we hear more of that music. Metal, like electronic music, has an unbelievable amount of subgenres. And as New Metal comes back, there are lots of other subgenres that make their way in. But I want to focus on the genre of New Metal and its surrounding influences because of how

contemporary female artists are reimagining it, using its aesthetics, using its sounds, especially guitars, and commenting on the genre's commercial nature. There are three pop artists in particular who are digging on this genre and flipping its messaging. We'll talk with Rina Sawayama in the second half. But first, let's listen to Grimes and Poppy. We'll start with Poppy's track. I disagree. This is a really great track. on who is Poppy.

Oftentimes we aren't that interested in the sort of personal profile of somebody in music. We're sort of interested in how the music says something. But in this case, we have to know a tiny bit about Poppy because she's this sort of

avant-garde performance artist, YouTuber who does, like, social commentary of makeup tutorials and ASMR videos and has a sort of like anti-celebrity cult following. There's even, like, extensive conspiracy things.

series about she might actually be a robot. She's someone who like intentionally guards her identity to make statements about celebrity writ large. And I think that's important to the sound that she's using here. Poppy signed to this label called Sumeria, who is an independent metal label specializing in an area of metal I'd never heard of. Do you know about Gent? How do you spell that?

D-J-E-N-T. Nope. Gent is an Anamonopoeia created by a metal guitarist named Misha Mansour and it describes the sound of the guitar. It is going,

Jen, Jen, Jen, Jen, Jen, Jen, Jen. Whoa, I love everything about this. If you'll allow me for a minute. I will allow it. All right, so I could never properly make this sound because it requires specialized guitars, like seven or eight strings.

Things are super detuned and you need to have the sluggiest amp in the world. I don't have any of those things. I have like a classic guitar, but I detuned it as far as I possibly could and ran it through the most disgusting distortion I possibly can. Here's what I think gent sounds like.

Maybe more of a junt than a gent, but yeah, point made. Tambers are obviously subjective, but what do you get from that gentee sound? Well, it has that sharp attack that you associate with metal, the kind of dry sound.

Yeah. But also a kind of insularity and like a distortion, but it's also kind of soft. I don't, I mean, I don't know what I'm talking about, but does that track at all? Yeah, I mean, I think it's a sound for me, which is aggressive, it's precise.

It's, it's... Yeah, let's go with your... That's better. Yeah, I like that. It's intense, though, right? It's like in your face, aggressive. I love that Poppy's using this sound because of what she does with it.

She's taking this heavily aggressive sound and channeling anger in a way which feels like the exact opposite of what we were hearing in the Limp Biscuit. She sings, I disagree with how you're trying to pleasure me. I disagree with the way that you're trying to pressure me. Yeah, that's interesting. There's this really productive tension between the language, which is very sort of polite, almost, and even her vocal timbre, which is very sort of light and feminine. And the heaviness of that gent guitar, it's really challenging, I think, a lot of notions of femininity and how it's expresses itself in music. I feel like we can hear that productive tension realized when we get to the bridge.

How cool is that? Wow, there's like every register here. This is so cool. Yeah, this is like pure pop harmony. We've gone into bright majory sounds or some acoustic sounds. This section could exist in an entirely different song lacking that whole gent-y guitar. Right. For Poppy, it's intentional.

This is how she described it in an interview with NME. Is this the metal era of poppy then? Some are calling it metal, but I'm calling it post-genre. Yeah, I see why she would say this. This is music that is constantly shifting and presenting new sounds, and it doesn't fit neatly into just this metal category. Right, exactly. And I think that's why the reappropriation of that new metal sound,

when it happens, it has a particular thing that it's trying to achieve. given the fact that she's both a performance artist and musician, I hear a real degree of intentionality in the use of that sound, trying to reappropriate it and completely rechannel its anger in a new way. But Poppy's not alone in using this new metal sound. Another artist that I have been really into is Grimes. She worked with Chris Grady on this one, who actually also produced on Poppy's record,

so we might hear some sounds in common. Here's Grimes' is, We Appreciate Power. That's heavier than three hippos standing on top of an elephant. Hold on trying to do the math. It's heavy, Charlie. Don't think about it too hard. It seems pretty heavy.

Yeah, it sounds for me like kind of a blend of If you took that very first song we heard today, Corrin's Freak on a Leash, and then blended it with nine-inch nails, head like a hole, and completely flipped the script and created something entirely new. And this is new in particular

because this is a strange song from the perspective of a robot AI. In fact, Grimes said that she was inspired by the North Korean band Moranbong. She said that we appreciate powers written from the perspective if a pro-AI girl group propaganda machine who use song, dance, sex, and fashion to spread goodwill towards artificial intelligence.

Right. I thought that was obvious. I want to think about the sounds that she's using. Great. And what they might be doing. So I want to zoom in on one particular section. Earlier we talked about gent. The guitar sound that we hear and we appreciate power is also a foundational part of new metal and many metal subgenres. You know what that is?

No, but I'm into it. What is it? Okay. Well, I feel like this is a thing that every young guitarist is like, I need to figure out how to do that thing. What is that thing? And I definitely remember being in high school being like, I got to learn how to make a pinch harmonic. I'm going to play you a pinch harmonic. So we'll get our gentie guitar.

Big, low, sludgy. Kind of the opposite of that heavy sludgy sound is that pinch harmonic. And it's basically grab any random section of a string with a super distorted sound and see what happens. You mix it with the genty sound. You can eat that up with a spoon. I love it. No, it's fun to just geek out and play these really fun things that I haven't done in over a decade. But there's a reason for it. If the gent sound is like frustration and anger and aggression, compartmentalized and merged into a timbre,

then the pinch harmonic for me is like the aggressive outburst that suddenly happens. Right? It's like all of that thing is like building up and then there is something about it that is intentionally, dissonant. It's intentionally unpleasant. It is so far from the low guitar sound. It is as high as you can go. And that sudden shift from high to low feels like that feeling of an outburst. Yeah. Okay, so what does Grimes having an outburst about? You know, I can't say we know exactly. We probably have to ask her.

But I think we're some things we can approximate me. One, we can sort of put on this identity of the pro-AI fascist girl group. Those pinch harmonics to me sound like robot sounds. They sound like something almost like malfunctioning. They have like a special effect sort of cinematic kind of quality. But I also like hearing this song, we appreciate power, from a less sort of storyteller, perspective and a more concrete one. You have grimes accompanied by the artist Hanna, two women, both claiming power and reveling in it.

I think that is super rad. We appreciate power. We appreciate power. Yeah, that's cool. So it's like reviving this new metal sound, but in a radically new context. Yeah, exactly. We're taking new metal. which was a pop spectacle, right?

It was metal plus hip hop, but in a pop format, like, they were pop songs. They had pop structures. They had hooks. They were about channeling dissatisfaction. But Poppy and Grimes are channeling dissatisfaction against toxic masculinity, technology, fascism. And potentially, like, in our next artist, even hypercapitalism.

One of my favorite artists right now is Rina Salyama. We heard her song, STFU, at the top of the episode. She has a way of taking this new metal sound and re-contextualizing it to criticize the ways in which our world create systemic violence, the way in which capitalism is destroying our earth. And I wanted to hear directly from her about how and why she marries these sounds. So we're going to talk with Rina when we come back from the break. Attention Spotify. Has yet got to the new Good Girl Jasmine Absolute of Carolina Herrera.

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couple of weeks I've really been enjoying this album Sawayama

by the artist Rina Sawayama. She works with her producing partner, Clarence Clarity, to make this very postmodern mashup of all of the different sounds that were happening in the late 90s and early aughts. And she in particular recasts the sound of new metal in really creative and fun ways. I recently gave her a ring to talk about two of my personal favorite songs, STFU and XS. Hey, Rina, thanks for chatting with me. Let's just jump right into your music.

what is going on with the multiple sounds in STFU? I really liked the sort of duality of the intensity of the intro and the verse. And then suddenly breaking down to something very sweet with like, you know, like sweeping chimes and piano and whatever. Honestly, like I wasn't like, yeah, let's write in like an angry song. It just flowed. And yeah, I guess that's sort of the mystery of songwriting is something. Sometimes you'll sit there and scratch your head for hours and have the worst day ever thinking you can't write anything. And then another day you'll just come out with something that obviously your heart wants to write it forever.

But you have no idea how it sort of came out. You talk about this duality of these really heavy sounds and these much lighter sounds. What does it mean for you to reference those really heavy riffs? I guess production is always such a good vehicle for the melody to be heard and to be enhanced. as much as possible. And so when I heard that, I wanted to do something that was a kind of evanescence,

I guess, when I was like, I don't know how old I was, but when I was young, yeah, like, evanescence was number one for like ages. And then we had tattoo

and this pop that had a really heavy backdrop to it. I think it's really interesting when you're able to, like, hold together a song that is like so different in certain parts and give it like a really strong personality that's not too,

referential and actually does something new or says something new. That was, yeah, sort of like my goal for this song. Yeah, I'm catching a real new metal vibe. How do you feel about that association with the genre? Yeah, I guess I kind of love it and it cracks me up because new metal, you know, it was like, I guess like a blend of like heavy, heavy metal pop and rap and rock. It's like quite chaotic if you think about it. But yeah, I love referencing that. But then adding an element of like, maybe Jojo, circa 2003, and sort of making our own, because new metal, I don't think, was very cool. But it was dominating the charts. I think me and Clarence in general like to reference things that are sort of in hindsight quite deeply uncool and try and make it something cool. The new metal era that you're referencing was quite self-serious. And you have a way of approaching songwriting, which feels both from a place of intuition drawing on your influences, but also with a great deal of fun. Is your use of those sounds

any kind of reclamation of that earlier work? Is it a way of recontextualizing music that had a very different intent? Yeah, that's a good question. I think especially with metal, it's very masculine, it's very, yeah, it's very serious. I've always found metal really funny. And I guess there some satire to it, you know, like, I hope that metal fans find it funny, because I find it really funny. It's often quite performative. Yeah, I mean, the performance of it and just, like, just the chaos of it. You have this wonderful moment about halfway through the song where you have this totally evil maniacal laugh that turns into a melody. Can you tell me about that moment? It literally just kind of came out of me in the same way that, like, the hook of S-Ewen.

CFU, like, came out. I remember being, like, to Clarence, like, what if I went, so why don't you just sit down and shut the fuck up? Shut the fuck. And I was like, that's so ridiculous. And he laughed at it. And I was like, yeah, that means we should put it in. And I think anything that sort of, you know, makes you laugh should be in a song. This seems to be another real just juxtaposition between the original aesthetics of new metal, which were quite self-serious, focusing on a lot of anger, pent-up anger, frustration. And he, laughter, almost parody seems to be the goal. Yeah, for sure.

The whole record for me is like a parody of, and I don't, I'm like, I want to say parody in the sense that like drag makes a parody out of very serious issues. And I'm really inspired by like drag in that sense and sort of making light of heavy things or making light of a musical movement. And yeah, even though we've, we went in really hard on this record just in general. and was very serious about getting it done, I hope people do feel like a sense of tongue and cheek and the way that we've sort of pulled together

all these different references and definitely references that people don't necessarily think are cool. One of my favorite satires is the song, Excess. Can you tell me about how this song came about? Yeah, so the Excess, I guess, as the title suggests, I mean, you've got to start to think that it's about something about being small, But I'm talking about and mocking sort of the excessive consumption culture that we have whilst sort of making it sound like a flex song. And a lot of people have commented being like, yeah, I love this song. It's like a flex song.

Imagine it Imagine listening to it With my In my convertible In my Mercedes or whatever My Tesla But that's sort of what I'm mocking And that appears

It's sort of like Every full bar There's like this metal riff And like the sort of injection of Chaos that comes in And that is meant to throw people off In like the best way possible But then also keep them in the song as well

And so that was really fun to mix Actually just to sort of push the boundaries of like what is too metal and what is too jarring and then what is just jarring enough and I think we've struck the balance but even in the lyrics as well it's sort of a song

that plays around and pretends that it's talking about one thing but it's talking about another and I love songs like that where there's like depth and sort of replay value excess is as you point out a criticism of consumer culture

how do you square working in the world of pop music, which is so celebrity and consumer focused with this satire. Yeah, I guess I'm definitely mocking myself because I'm probably in one of the most or more consumptive or over-consuming industries. And it's definitely not good. And I kind of wrote that song while I was in a serious climate grief because the only sort of way to move forward was to, for me, make fun of it. Not make fun of, like, you know, where the world's headed.

But it's just make fun of, like, human behavior around and the responses to the fact that global warming is accelerating. And I used to get very angry at things, and I still definitely get very angry at things. But the emotion that quickly follows it for me to sort of digest it is to make it funny. Well, it is much more palatable, I think, as a listener to hear a song, which, you know,

It's not a song that's, hey, you're a climate denier and I hate you. It's caked in this larger, as you pointed out, sort of like, flex kind of trope, which makes it at first very listenable. And then you spend one moment thinking about it, like, oh, wow, this is pretty profound. Oh, thank you. Yeah, I love playing like that. I think that's such like the sort of beauty of songwriting is that you can sort of take the listener on a journey however you want. to really and this whole record for me was like so fun to write in that sense and sort of even when

I was writing excess with you know Nate Campany and Kyle Shearer like they work along you know Carly Ray Jepson stuff and Ali X and they sort of you know very much based in LA and I just finished STFU and I was like I need is I don't want to write a song that's going to be before this or after this on the record so it sort of needs to have similar elements but not be too similar. And I remember showing it to them and they were like laughing. And I said, why don't we have like crazy metal stabs like every four bars and make it super obnoxious but then the rest of it's pussycat dolls? And they just thought I was crazy. But it's one of those things that you just like got to keep working on it and that song took different revisions. But at the end, like,

I'm really happy with how it sounds. It's all about like making your collaborators like have fun with the song and also pushing and pulling and making sure you're getting like the best song possible rather than being like too egotistical about it or you know the producer getting too hung up on how they think a pop song should sound and I know that all of them really enjoyed writing this so that makes me really happy as a songwriter you know I'm not just like sort of turning out any old crap yeah well you're mashing up these two very different very commercial musics from the height of the CD era you have the new metal style of guitar stabs that come and sort of inject that moment of, okay, maybe this isn't just parody, maybe

something serious is happening here. But the underlying material feels like it must be nodding to some specific kinds of music from the turn of the millennial era. What are some of those musical references you're making? Well, I feel like the charts were so chaotic in 2000s, which I really love. Even in the UK, like, it was, I think it was like reality TV and reality music shows were coming about. So yeah, like the charts were really crazy. So yeah, I mean, you'd have, I don't want to say I was inspired by Limp Bizkit, but, you know, that was number one. Like, Roland was like number one for ages. Then it was like Evanes and, like, Neptune's and Timberland were all over the charts. You had Justin Timberlake and Sierra and NERD. And that was definitely my favorite era of pop.

It also, it was also the period, which was the height of Britney Spears. And it feels like Excess has a nod to some of her music. Is that intentional? Well, 100%. I'm always inspired by Brittany. She was like my girl. It was Britney first, then it was Kylie, then it's Beyonce. But Britney was my absolute everything. And only when I started writing songs where I realized, like how good the songwriting was. And my first EP, Rina, was very much inspired by the Max Martin style productions. And I sort of shied away from it a little bit in the album, but I still can't help but be inspired by her. And she actually, she is the reason why all the pop singers sound the way they do now. You know, like she set the blueprint for how female singers are expected to sing.

And I definitely pandered to that for excess. How would you describe that quality? I always say like a really like demented baby vibe, which I don't really like, I don't know. I liked it for that song. I always adjust my voice, depending on what song it is. Like, I sang Who's Gonna Save You Now, which is like a later track and it's very much stadium rock vibe. Like I sang that like as though I'm a rock singer and sort of really making the high notes quite shrill and quite like unpleasant in a way. Because that's how like male rock singers sing and get up to that high note.

But then XS is very much like referential to Brittany and Pussycat dolls and sort of the very, very sweet, top end heavy way of singing that's really, become the staple for music now. The song feels almost like an extension of Give Me More by Britney Spears. I love that, thank you. Biggest compliment ever. What is the sample at the beginning of XS? Oh, it's called Mi Yo,

and it's a Japanese sort of old Japanese way of singing. It sounds almost like Indian, but it's actually sort of like this, I don't even know what it is. it's almost like the Japanese equivalent of like yodeling, maybe. And it's a very, very traditional way of singing. If you watched like any kabuki shows, that's kind of how they sing. Yeah.

And yeah, that's the sample. In that way, because of it, it's sort of the downgraded quality of it. It reminded me a little bit of the opening of Toxic in that way. Oh, my God, thank you. See, I can't help myself. I just can't help but put Brittany samples in there. And honestly, like, whenever you see any songs that are doing, really well in the charts or like any iconic songs.

They're just like, I think people don't realize that they're just such like good songs. Obviously there's the marketing and everything like that and the video and everything and that's what makes it iconic. But at the core of it, it's just an incredible, incredibly written song. And yeah, that's sort of what I always try and strive for. But it's sort of that blend of simplicity and complexity. That's really hard to pinpoint in pop. I think it was just the music that I grew up listening to.

And now sort of in hindsight, And also, I think it's the fact that, you know, people back then and all the music back then is now, like, would be so cancelled and, like, would never happen again because it would just get cancelled. For what kind of reasons? Tattoo, for example, you know, would not happen. I think, like, the Britney and Madonna kiss would just be, like, very questionable. I think there's some things that were, like, very much a product of, like, the 2000s and the late 90s that, that, you know, that. Yeah, like I don't know if like the Britney Spears, like any of those videos when she was really, really young would happen again now. They all seem ripe for reimagining and in a new context.

I feel like excess really does that. Oh, thank you. Yeah. I don't know. I guess like I'm trying to make something that might not ever happen again. Sort of a bit more appropriate for the current era. Thank you. Oh, thank you so much.

I really enjoyed this interview. Take care. Bye. Switched on Pop is produced by Bridget Armstrong, Megan Lubin, Nate Sloan, and meet Charlie Harding, or Mix edited and engineered by Brandon McFarland. Social media by Abby Barr and illustrations by Arras Gottlieb. Our executive producers are Liz Kelly Nelson and Nashok Kerwa who are a part of the Box Media Podcast Network. Reach out to us at Switched On Pop.

We love hearing from you. What other new metal revivalists are you listening to? Also in our show notes, I'm going to post the punk rock NBA video. on what killed new metal. It's really interesting. I highly recommend it. We'll be back next week with a brand new episode. Until then, thanks for listening.