Switched on Pop - Why it hurts to release a record (with Sylvan Esso)

Episode Date: October 11, 2022

Earlier this year, the members of Sylvan Esso took a gamble, making their "most free and wild and strange" album yet: No Rules Sandy. And to add to the overall theme of lawlessness, Amelia Meath and Nick Sanborn decided to do something equally as free and radical: they decided to forgo the typical multi-year album cycle as well as a standard promo campaign. While wrapped in what Amelia calls a “PR cocoon,” she began to think about the less tangible aspects of the album rollout process, and wanted to enlist other musicians (as well as Switched On Pop) in exploring certain aspects of what it means to be an artist to answer the question: why does it hurt to release records? Songs Discussed Sylvan Esso - Your Reality Sylvan Esso - Cloud Walker Sylvan Esso - Didn’t Care Sylvan Esso - Look At Me Sylvan Esso - How Did You Know Sylvan Esso - Sunburn MUNA - Number One Fan MUNA - Silk Chiffon MUNA - What I Want Bartees Strange - Heavy Heart Bartees Strange - Co Signs Bartees Strange - Hennessy Wilco - Cruel Country Maggie Rogers - Alaska Maggie Rogers - That’s Where I Am Maggie Rogers - Anywhere with You Maggie Rogers - Want Want Maggie Rogers - Begging for Rain Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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for your sensia. Welcome to Switched on Pop. I'm songwriter Charlie Harding. And I'm Amelia Meath, one half of the band, Sylvanesso. Amelia, we first got to know each other when you and

Nick Sanborn, the other half of Sylvan Esso, were on the show last winter. Yeah. We were in L.A. to write songs with people and escape the cold in North Carolina. And we were supposed to be going to the Grammys. Yeah, you were nominated for a Grammy for your last record, Free Love. But the Grammys ended up being postponed because of the Omicron Wave. Yep. And then we just stayed in our little rental house, and this kind of magical thing happened. We made a whole record in like six weeks. You called it No Rules Sandy. What does that mean?

Oh, Sandy is my nickname for Nick. And No Rules, Sandy kind of encapsulates the wild and free way we made the record. No rules. Yeah, it's kind of experimental. I mean, you're known for mixing electronic music, pop, Americana, even. But this new album, it's got genre mashups, awesome lofi textures that I really love, tons of bleeps and bloops, voicemail interludes, and some really unconventional vocal arrangements.

Yeah, it's a bit out there. And it all happened so quickly that we decided to put it out quickly. Right. So we didn't do the typical album rollout where we put out three singles beforehand or do it like announce a tour. We just kind of released it spontaneously in the same way it was made. Is there a song on the album that you feel like encapsulates the idea of No Rule Sandy? I feel like there's so many. But No Rules Sandy is a backup line that I wrote for a song called Your Reality,

where Nick and I both hear the one at a different point in the song. So we count it differently, and we decided, instead of making a compromise, we were just going to keep each other's count in. So like Nick was writing the, like, composing from a different perspective than I was singing from, but we just kept writing the song together. And because of that, I put in as kind of a joke. I said no rules Sandy, no rules, no rules, no rules. I said no rule Sandy, which is me just telling Nick that there's no rules.

And I decided that just to put that in there and then when we played it for our friends, they were like, that's the name of the record. So this song has this sort of joke line, no rule Sandy. It becomes the title of the album. And it has almost internal to it a whole philosophy, which is how you put the record out, kind of was. no rules. Exactly. We just decided to go where the joy is. And the joy for this one was just giving it away as soon as we possibly could. So why did you want to reach out to Switched on Pop? Oh, I wanted to talk to you guys again, mostly because our conversation last time was so fun. Oh, thank you. And also, oddly, because we were talking to you, like, in the midst of making the record.

So in some ways, like, because we wrote all the music for it in, like, almost three weeks, our talking to you is, like, kind of of at the center of it, oddly. And so, also I just really like talking to you about music. Thank you, Amelia. Mm-hmm. I feel the same. And I really love this record. Thank you.

I do too. But over the last couple of months, we've been talking, and the conversation has sort of shifted from just talking about No Rule Sandy to, like, a bigger inquiry. I feel like that you've been on. Maybe a quest, a journey, if you will. Indeed. This is Silvanessa's fourth record, and there's a roadmap for the first three. You know, the first one, you're like, hey, it's me. And the second one, you're like, no, it's really me.

And I'm good at this. And then the third one, you're like, never mind, guys, it's me still. You know, chill, chill guy. And then putting out the fourth one, particularly in, like, the strange and exciting and alternative way that we did, made me start thinking about how strange it is that when you put music out, you're essentially putting out little collections of your work, usually once every three years,

and you're constantly having to announce that you've made something new and that it is the best thing that you've ever made. And it's totally different. And it's all really just trying, just like basically begging people to just listen to it, please, because everything's in there, like just listen to the GD record, please.

Yeah. And it got me thinking that what I really wanted to know was what it felt like to other people to release records. Yeah. Like what they are feeling behind the scenes. And since this album release was unconventional and fast, I thought maybe I could do something different this time. Instead of talking about the record itself,

we could produce a podcast with you about that question together. What it means to release records? What are you hoping to find? Usually the thing that I'm searching for is community and understanding other people's experiences of something that is similar to the thing that I do. It's also a very intimate thing to talk about. It's not just talking about someone's creative output, but it's talking about their emotional reaction to their output being received and perceived. I want to learn how people deal with that and what it feels like to them and also if they like it. So who's the first person that you want to speak with?

Let's talk to Katie Gavin from Moona. Muna is... The coolest gayest band ever. Tell me about them. Oh my gosh. Okay. Muna is Katie Gavin, Josette Maskin, and Naomi McPherson. And they've been making music together since, like, 2013 to underground acclaim.

But over the Pandy, they got dropped by their major label. They released a self-tide. record and it's kind of like a rebirth of Moona. And they're queer, they have this incredible queer anthem on it called Silk Chafon. Yeah. Which features Phoebe Bridgers, who also runs their new label. And it went like viral on the talk and also just reached a much wider audience than they had before. I just wanted to speak to them.

And also like me and Katie have been friends on the internet for years and we've never gotten to talk. So I'm excited to meet her, even if it's not. at IRL, totally. Hi. Hi. It's nice to meet you. It's nice to meet you. How are you?

I can't believe we haven't met in person after all this time. I know. When you're writing songs, when does the record making process begin for you? Such a good question. I've been a songwriter since I was a small child. Like this is always something that I've done, and it's always been, thank God like a healthy coping mechanism for me. And I think maybe because of that,

I've always kind of seen songs as like, I just use them to process whatever I'm going through. And records are almost like an arbitrary, there's a certain slice of time that groups these songs together. How was the press campaign for self-titled? This is one of the only, conversations I've ever had about Luna that isn't with the other two. We do like almost all of our press, the three of us. And I think there's something about that, that it's like it allows it

to be a little bit of a conversation. I find that in this industry and particularly in doing press cycles, the true incredible intimacy of having collaborators that are reflecting back, adding to feeling and also like reshaping through their words it it gives like breathes life and body into into things in a completely different way yeah i was going to say and the fact that you are giving birth to this thing at the same time like it's just so wonderful to have somebody else who's in the experience and it's like you know you can check in with being like are you like at the end of your rope right now? Like, are you scared out of your mind right now?

Like, you know, just to have somebody else who's going through it with you is really wonderful. Yeah, experiencing things together. It's just the freaking best. It's so much better than being alone. There was like a lot of days where we would do four or five interviews like in a row.

What was annoying me in a way was the way that you have to put your album in a box so that people can write about it in a digestible way, I guess. You can use a lot of Moona songs to put on like when you're working out or when you're getting ready for a date or something and just enjoy the fact that they're bangers in the production is good. Or you can use a lot of Moona songs to actually process things that have happened in your life and have moments of reflection. It's like whatever, it's choose your own adventure, right? For me, I don't think I, like, have fully released a record until I've, like, sung it for, like, a year and a half afterwards. Yeah, and it's

really funny, too, because you have to do a ton of press where you're talking about what the album means way before that point in time. Yeah. You know? And I've always been, in terms of, like, doing PR. Like, I definitely have been of the belief that I would rather come up with what the box is than have somebody else come up with what the box is. Like, if we say queer joy, they're going to say queer joy, you know? They'll just repeat it. So you do have a lot of power, like, in that, in that way. Really? Like, haven't you found that? Like, you can just decide and people will just run with it. I think one of the things that, like, being out from the jump.

I think it's kind of protected us. Like sometimes you wonder if it limited your audience, but I do feel like we've been so incredibly lucky to have not had to deal with really people relating to us as sex objects. There's just always been this feeling of like, I feel like my fans like relate to me more as a friend or like a, sister or these days a mom. And sometimes they do call me a milf, which I'm flattered by.

But I love milf, but it's just like I feel really safe with the people who listen to our music. And like that is completely a gift. Is there anything else about the nature of presenting yourself to the world through your songs that you'd like to say? I think releasing music for me has always been a roller coaster. It's like it's an up and down battle that affects you. Because at the end of the day, there's nothing that really changes the fact that this is the same thing as, you know, me as a kid making a drawing and then being like, do you like it? You know? And that's really sweet, you know.

and I'm grateful that I learned early on that all the scariness that is around releasing stuff and being perceived by the world. The way that I handle that is not to like retreat from it and like make and remake a project until all of a sudden I don't have any more complicated feelings about it to just keep going. Just like put it out. Awesome. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you so much for talking to me and hanging. out with me in this weird internet space.

Thank you. Thanks for having me. Amelia, how was that chatting with Katie from Una? Yeah, I got the thing that I was hoping for in that I got to hear the intimate details of someone else reacting to watching people react to them. I think you maybe made a friend too. Oh my God, stop. I hope so. That would be Katie.

Let's jump right into the next conversation. You texted me the other day that you wanted to speak with Barty's story. Strange, who's recently released the critically celebrated album Farm to Table. Who is Bartiz Strange, and why did you want to speak with him? Bartiz is just making some really incredible genre-bending music right now. And he's had an amazing career, even before his musical one. He worked in the Obama administration and for nonprofits, all the while making truly spectacular music. Then he got signed to 4-D, and now he's starting on the path.

of mainstream music media, where he's doing full press cycles. He's out on tour with so many amazing acts like Lucy Dacus. There's even a song on Farm to Table that's called Cosines that's like about him being surrounded by this musical community that he's been a fan of for so long. Yeah, that's why I wanted to talk to him. Hi, I'm Barty Strange. I've been a fan of you for so long, and it's nice to be able to wave IRL.

Fam, I love your music. I like love, love, love, love, love your music. Thank you for having me on this. Oh my gosh, of course. How are you feeling about your presentation of the record? Well, something that I struggle with, you know, I'm a black man, right, from the south, from Oklahoma, Texas, North Carolina. That's where all my folks are from. So when I'm talking to an audience from Germany about the themes of my record, It's way different than talking to an American or a Canadian audience about the themes to my record because the American black story is so present in Western culture, like North American Western culture. But when I'm in Germany, I got to start from like ground zero, you know, in like what a song is about or what a reference is about. And it's funny because my record is also reviewed more poorly in Germany and Italy and countries like that because they, don't understand the themes that I'm referencing a lot of time, which is something that's really

challenging for me because it's like, I'm not white. You know, I don't know how to write. You know what I mean? It's like, I don't know how to sound like something that would be more familiar to them. Is there a way of like distilling a record into a sentence so that someone can actually understand it? I don't think so. I mean, I do my best, but it's hard. I read a lot of interviews. I read a lot of reviews because I'm very interested in how people talk about the records. And I don't think I've hacked it. I mean, I think with my album title, I tried to be like as clear about what it is. It's a rags to riches story. It's started from the bottom. Now I'm here, farm to table. You know, it's like, it's a record about a transitionary time in my life. But still, you know, people are like,

what's the title got to do with the record? I'm like, It's the whole thing. You know, I grew up on a farm and now I literally get to tour with people I've looked up to my whole life. And that's crazy. And that's the record. So, yeah. Has there been anything new that you've learned about the record through your fans, through people who have been receiving it? I have a lot of affirmations.

Mm-hmm. You know, things that I had hunches about that have been affirmed through my interactions with people. For example, you know, there's a song on the record called Hennessy. And they say black folks drink Hennessy. To me, the song is about stereotypes and how, I mean, the hook is literally, and they say black folks drink Hennessy, right? But I counter it. But I want you over me in the dark. I sang, but I want you all over me.

Kind of saying, like, I know they're stereotypes and I know you see me a certain way, but really I want love. I want to be appreciated for my art and as a person. So many white people, Asian folks, black folks, queer folks reach out to me about that song and they're like, yes, like this song is like how I feel. Like I want people to see me for more than just being a woman or someone who's trans or someone who's gay or whatever, you know? And it's like, and I wrote that song as something like very. personal but it's beautiful to see how other people draw that song to their experiences. Do you feel like they know you in a way that you weren't expecting? I'm always amazed how much people think they know me.

Like I'll literally meet someone at an airport who's just like, they're talking to me, like they've known me my whole life, you know? And I'm like, is that just because you like the record or is it because of like what's in the record? Because it's like, farm to table is like a very personal record about real, life stuff. And I guess, I mean, if I were to just tell everyone what those songs were about, they would feel like they knew me. It's a lot of stuff in there. So yeah, it's funny. I feel like I know certain artists I've never met too. So that might be a parallel. Are there any things that you would like to say about putting out a record before we wave by to each other?

One thing I'll say is like, I'm still like very much learning how this work. world works. And so in a year, when I think about this, I'll probably think about it differently because I'll learn a lot of new shit. And that's kind of the most interesting part about putting out records is every time it's very different. And you learn a little more. And it's all interesting and cool. I'm grateful for it. I'm constantly amazed at how much everybody's bands is like their own art project. Truly. Like it's all just people being like, I'm just going to try it. You know? Yeah, big time. It's wild. It really is. Thank you so much for giving us this time

and for talking about your new beautiful record with us and the nature of releasing. I really appreciate it. Of course. Yeah, it was my pleasure. Thanks for asking. What did you learn from Bartis? I learned a lot from talking to him,

but I think the main thing I'm learning is that it's people think it's as weird as I think it is to put records out. He does go by Bartiz Strange. Yeah, and like, and that it is like an very intense emotional experience that is something that artists don't actually talk about that much because they've spent most of their record talking about all of their other emotional experiences and then you put it out into the world and that creates a whole different reaction. So I'm hearing that there's some validation in these conversations about the bizarre nature of putting yourself out into the world. And I'm intrigued to see what you're going to find next,

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Every Saturday in your audio and video feeds. All right, Amelia, where do you want to go next with these series of conversations? I think we need to talk to Jeff Tweedy. Wow, Jeff Tweedy. Yeah. The sage of songwriting. Right. It's got a great book on it.

Yeah. Yeah. He's the lead singer and songwriter. The band Wilco. They've released albums since 1994. It's actually the 20th anniversary of one of my favorite records, Yankee Hotel Foxtrot. Mine too. Love it. They also recently released their 12th studio album, Cruel Country. So like, if anyone's going to know how to talk about releasing records, it's Jeff. Yeah. Yeah. feels like spontaneous and beautiful, which is like new for Wilco.

And also connected to kind of how you made a record. Yeah, it is. I want to talk to Jeff because he's put out so many records. And he also has been putting them out since like before the internet was the thing. And like before like all the streamers were a thing. So he like, he, you know, he's run the gamut of putting records out into all sorts of different climates. Also, I love talking to him. Hi.

Now, is this your show, Amelia? This is like, I'm like doing this in conjunction with Switchdown Pop, but it's my idea. When you put out your first record, how did it feel? And did you have a like, that thing you do moment? Your interactions with how your record was going to enter the world back then. Well, I think they started with your friends. You come home from the studio with your cassette. and getting that immediate insulation of the people that are going to respond to it in the spirit that it was made.

Like, hey, my friend made this. This is so cool. This is amazing. What I remember is being the first outside of that insulated little bubble. The first dispatches from the world at large would be you'd get advanced copies of some reviews. The record label would go, oh, you have Rolling Stones going to review it. Do you want to see it? They sent a Xerox of it. And that would be all you'd have for like weeks, you know, like is like, well, there's one review that's going to be out at the end of next week or something like that. But there was no immediate, the internet didn't react the way that it does now. It's not immediately there's a consensus formed by people that have had not had time to form a measured or considered opinion. That's what happens immediately for modern records. And you can't, I, I think. I can't pay attention to it. With cruel country, do you feel like you're still introducing yourself to the world? I don't know if I look at it as an introduction. I feel like each song is an effort to make a connection.

I think every song individually is I want to make a connection with it. And then a record to me is finding the songs that work together the best to kind of of enhance each other in a way that's going to allow that those circuits to be connected and accumulatively give each other a better chance of making that connection. That's what I want to share. And then I'm reminded that everybody is coming at this from way different places in their life. You know, like, I don't know, I can't intellectualize it in the moment.

I just get just like not like I'm. but it's like I need that reassurance or like need good reviews or need people that tell me I'm a genius or anything like that. It's just like I just made something. And I really feel like a little kid. Like look at what I made. I always like reach out to people that I love who put out records, usually like a week after their record.

And I'm like, how are you feeling buddy? Because it's kind of like a breakup feeling in a lot of ways. Yeah, there's a sadness to it. There's not yours anymore. It doesn't just belong to you. That's what we're talking about. The world is projecting onto it all of its own baggage, its own opinions, its own potential. The record isn't just a record the first time you hear it.

A record can represent a potential friendship or a potential companion. But yeah, you don't get to make it anymore. Other people are making it in their consciousness. and they can't be trusted, Amelia. No, they can and they're usually wrong. But also, I find the thing that always amazes me is that there are people who have like emotional relationships with my record that I would never be able to create.

Like, that's the weirdest part is that like there's, no matter what once it's out, I'm always wrong about what the record is. Well, yeah, and that's good, that's good. That's good and bad because, you know, then there is a creative listener that has an ability to designate some intent that you never could have intended, you know. But at the same time, there is a real impulse. There is an accuracy to the idea that music is so monumental in people's lives. And it can be just one, I don't know, maybe the greatest consolation that we get to share with each other, you know. You reach?

through time and space with technology and and touch somebody's fucking shoulder, man. You know, let's reel. Thank you so much. Thank you, Amelia. What was that conversation like for you, Amelia? It was so nice to hear him talking about how putting records out hurts his feelings. Because it hurts my feelings, too. I think that might be one of the reasons why I wanted to have all these conversations

because I just wanted to make sure that it also hurt other people's feelings. or just to see it's like the sensitivity test or something just to make sure like I'm not the biggest baby in the world like that it's like actually a thing that other people feel is there like a specialized therapist for musicians that can help with the process of releasing a record like it doesn't seem like this thing which

ought to be or externally seems very joyful and celebration of creation is perversely, deeply uncomfortable. I think you have to apply the everything all of the time rule here. Because, like, yes, it is that. And also it's the other thing. Or maybe you're right. Like, maybe half of the...

No, there is a certain joy to releasing something. It's mostly that, like, what you... In order to get up the, like, chutzpah to... do all the work that you need to do to put out a record. You have to really project that it's going to be a success. And because of that,

you have projections of how you want your record to be perceived because otherwise, why on earth would you give it away? But then also, there are some artists that don't even get that choice. Some people who find virality, like Maggie Rogers, my dear friend.

She was met with viral fame. when, like, she was in college and a video of her playing one of her tracks for Farrell got passed around the internet. Wow. I have zero, zero, zero notes for that.

And then, like, all of a sudden, every record label wanted to sign her, and so many people knew who she was. And that all happened in, like, a week. And then she had to, like, all of a sudden she had to put out a record. Or she didn't have to. but she did. It was a beautiful record called her in the past life. And she just put out her second

record, Surrender. Yeah, so I wanted to talk to her and talk to her about like the nature of constructing a persona after you've already been perceived and like what it's like to be given the chance of success and taking it and making it into something that's yours as opposed to what people think you are. Hi. How you doing? Good, how are you? I'm good. Yay!

Yeah. I was reading this interview, or was watching an interview with Fiona Apple the other day, and she was talking about putting out criminal. And how, like, how when she put it out, it was her, like, just being like, hello world, like, here I am. And the world was immediately like, you are now ours. And she was like, this is crazy and bullshit. And I don't understand any of it.

I felt very much that way when I entered the scene in 2016. You did? Yeah. There's not a lot of space to grow once people decide what you are. And I realized I was playing the character of Maggie Rogers rather than making shit I actually fuck with or reflecting a version of my present. Like I got sort of stuck in this character of being like, the girl next door that could be your role model.

And I was like, ah, that's a part of me. But like, I wasn't talking about it. about what the reality of my life was or making music that sounded like the music I listened to or like. There was so much that happened on tour and on the road in those like four or five years that I was out where I didn't have time to process and I just had to swallow it and keep going. And I think at some point you swallow something enough and like it's got to come up. It was like I had really bad emotional acid reflux. And I would describe it. Like there was this like matted seaweed in my chest.

Like there was some like really shit I need to get out. And the process of making this record was really deeply uncomfortable and not super. But when the songs came, it was really fun and really quick and easy. Were you making this record to get the seaweed out of your chest? Yeah. And I wanted to, it was totally to heal. It felt like I got to do everything but make a record that I love. And I really like her in a past life, but I made it in like two weeks.

And I liked it. And it felt like me at the time, but I didn't walk away from that process being like, this is great. And with surrender, the one thing I hadn't gotten. to do that I'd always dreamed about doing, which is an incredibly like privileged and lucky way to start a sentence. I'll just like flag. Is that I had never gotten to make a record that I really loved. And that I really like felt myself in and that really felt ambitious and stretched in an artistic

way, not in a commercial way. And that's what this record is. And that's what it did for me. I was in Maine. I had been making music casually for a couple months. And I had written this piano thing, and I was sitting at the computer, and all of a sudden I put a culture vulture on my vocal. You put culture vulture on your voice.

Yeah. Will you describe what that sound is to you? Culture vulture is a distortion technique. It was a texture I had never worked in before, because it didn't feel accessible to me as a woman. Why? Because it was a rough and tough guitar dude thing. And where and when I grew up,

that was very much only for men. And I had been living in the quiet for so long that playing with something really loud and dark, it just felt good. And that's also sort of where the drums came in. Like, I had never had big drums on my songs before, and I really wanted something that felt physical. That moment was when I was like, oh, we started making anywhere with you. And really hearing that, that, like, different vocal texture.

And working on that song was the first time I was like, oh, this is it. Like, this is something. And I think I was aware in doing that that. that in making the thing that I really wanted to make that it might not be the thing that my audience wanted. The people who would stay with me would be the people who were really with me in the present and who were really there for the version of myself

that was real in the present and that I could also really potentially lose really andates and pounds as well. And made that decision really consciously And I think I'm only just now, I mean, I stand by it. And I fucking love the record I made. But I think I'm only just now figuring out what that actually, like, looks or feels like to move through. It's a beautiful record, Maggie. Thanks.

It's crazy the fact that we're in a situation where we have to be saying, like, this is who I am. We have to, like, we're, like, summarizing ourselves. And then, which, of course, like, impossible. Well, there's no nuance. And the idea that I like tell you who I am And then I I only get to update that every two to three years Yeah

It feels like outgrowing your clothes Yeah and you have to constantly be like Here I am, it's me, you remember who I am From this thing but also Here's this this like cool new guy Who's who I actually am Sorry I tricked you before I had a journalist to ask me like

I think I was saying something like, people think they know me and like, they don't know me. And the journalist was like, well, if you've read your press and like listened to your lyrics, what do people not know? That's an annoying question. I got through the press process and then I didn't even feel like my life was mine anymore. Like, I wasn't even, it was like my life had been so highly narrativeized for profit that it lost all nuance in order to package it into something that people could. easily understand. And that's part of the game. But I don't like the game. Yeah. It's a funny

thing putting out music because you don't get to choose your fans and you don't get to choose like what you're known for. Like want-want's doing really well right now on radio. It's the first song I've had that's gone on radio and I keep being like, no, not that one. Like, how was the fun one? I know. Like, what about my? like emotional thought pieces. Like, what about Megan for rain? Not the fun one. Like, I can't be known for the word puzzle.

And it's like, it's all good. It is all good. It is all good. If when you make another record, how do you want to put it out? What would you like the experience to feel like? I don't know if I'm going to make another record. And that's kind of hard to say right now, but like, I don't know.

Like, I don't know what I'm going to do. And how I put it out is a total question mark. Like, a lot of my deals are almost up. Like, I am looking at what the state of the world looks like and how this makes me feel. I love playing music more than anything. I love being a part of community. I love playing music with other people. I love writing so much.

But I'm really thinking about what it means to have a beautiful life. And how much of this I need to be public and how much I want to do it for me and where my ambition lies. And I'm having real conversations with myself about what I want. And it's actually really exciting because I have. For the first time of my life, I've no idea. And I've known what I've wanted since I was, like, three years old. And I don't know the answer right now. And that's cool.

I'm sorry I asked you that question. I hate it whenever anyone asked me that. It's the worst. But you know what? Yesterday, I put some songs in a drop box and labeled it MR3. Hey, well, there you go. Like, it's not like I'm not, like, because I'm like, what else do I do? As I'm sitting here being like, I might never make another record.

Like, it's great. Do it. You might not. I'm just being dramatic. I love it, though. Okay, we've done it. We're at the end. Yeah, we're at the end.

I don't know, Charlie. What did you learn? I learned that the trappings of success, they don't break through the most fundamental human feelings. And so behind releasing any work that's like, hey, I got it, I feel super confident, this work is awesome. It's always that like, it's good. I hope everyone really

likes it. Like, there's a lot of anxiety, a lot of wanting to be loved in the process of releasing a record that we don't always see. And for me, it makes me it makes you want to give everybody a hug who's putting out music and also suspend judgment for a minute and really sit with

the work because I know that it was important to that person. That's the thing. everyone feels the same. Like when you put out a record, the thing that you're doing is revealing your innermost thoughts and feelings. And that is incredibly vulnerable and strange, even if you are successful.

It reminds me when Adam and Eve were in the garden, they were nude. They were happy and safely just in the buff. But when they were exiled, they became naked, and there was shame associated with having been exposed to the world. I feel like putting out a record is getting naked in public

and really hoping, though, that you have the internal wherewithal your own garden to be able to go into to be safely nude and totally yourself and completely comfortable. That is so right. Being naked but being perceived as nude. This has been fun. So do you want to join the team as a producer? Yes, please.

No, really. come back and please produce some other stories with us. I would love that. Oh, my gosh. This episode of Switched on Pop was produced by Amelia Meath. Thank you, Amelia. Thank you. It was also produced by Rihanna Cruz, engineered by Brandon McFarlane, edited by Jolie Myers,

some great illustrations of every artist Amelia spoke with this week by Iris Gottlie. Community Management by Abby Barr. Our executive producers are Hannah Rosen and Ashok Karwa, or a member of the Vox Media Podcast Network and a production of Vulture. Every piece of scoring you heard on this episode comes from Sylvan Esso's record, no rules, Sandy, and was used by permission from Silvanesso, Lema Vista, and Psychic Hotline. Amelia, I'm assuming, like podcasts, you can find it wherever you get your podcast? Can I find your record anywhere you get records? Indeed, anywhere.

And what about Sylvanesso and you? Where can find you? You can find Sylvanesso at sylvanesso.com and at Sylvanesso on all of the places. and with me, you can find me at A. Randall M. And Switched-on-Pop is at Switched-on-Pop on all the platforms as well. Come back next week, as we're going to deep dive into a very unexpected number one hit, Steve Lacey's Bad Habits. And until then, thanks for listening.