Switched on Pop - Women's Rap Renaissance

Episode Date: December 8, 2020

Producer Bridget Armstrong shares her top tracks from women who are running hip-hop in 2020: Megan Thee Stallion, Tierra Whack, Rico Nasty, Flo Milli, and CHIKA More Listen to the Drake episode on In My Feelings: https://switchedonpop.com/episodes/93-drake-vs-drake Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

If you're tired of endless scrolling to figure out where to eat, same. I'm Stephanie Wu, editor-in-chief of Eater. We've just launched the new-ish and way better Eater app. It has all the restaurants we love, gives you personalized picks wherever you are, and serves up smarter search results just for you. You can find my list of the best places for martinis and fries in New York City. And save your favorite spots, share lists, follow editors, and book right in the app. the Eater app at Eaterapp.com. It's free for iOS users. Welcome to Switched on Pop. I'm a songwriter Charlie

Harding. Nate is on maternity leave, and my wonderful guest is our producer, Bridget Armstrong. Welcome, Bridget. Hi, Charlie. Thanks for having me. Oh, it's the best. One of my favorite things that we do together is that each week our team gets together and has a conversation about what we're listening to. And I feel like over the last couple of weeks, you've brought in a bunch of new music that you wanted to discuss that all falls within a theme. And so I just want to want to hand the reins to you. You've got five songs. And what's our theme? So our theme is, I'm calling it the Renaissance of women rappers, female rappers. Hell yeah. Most recently, I brought the song Body from Megan the Stallion's new album. Right.

Right. Addy, aida, adi, adi, adi, adi, ad, yada, adi, adi, adi, adi, adi, adi, hadi, hadi, hadi, hadi, hadi. Way, baby, feet, tis, body, crazy curvy. We're seeing all of these female rappers that are, like, wildly different, have different styles, but they're, like, very popular and getting a lot of attention within like the last year or two. And in particular, this is like an interesting time because other than like very early hip hop, you haven't seen other eras where there are this many mainstream female rappers. Like if you think about like the Little Kim era. Little Kim to Queen B so you best take heed.

Or even like a Nicki Minaj era. I'm Nikki Minaj, I'm at them dudes up. Back coop's up and truck the doze. There's usually, like, one top female rapper, and then anyone else who sort of comes in the game is, like, pitted against her. And I feel like the last year or two, but especially this year,

like all these other women had a great year, so we're going to talk about a few of them. Okay, great. I'm really excited to see what we might find. What's common? What's divergent? What are they saying that stands out? So what's the first track you want to listen to?

So we're starting with. Megan Nostalian. The first song we're going to hear is shots fired from her new album, Good News. But before we get into the music, I need to give you a little bit of context. Okay. So obviously, Megan's had a really great year. She just dropped this album. Wop with Cardi B was a huge hit. But she also had something really traumatic happened to her this year. Back in July, Megan was shot in the foot, allegedly, by rapper Tori Lanes. Tori Lanes was charged with felony assault after the altercation, and he pled not guilty. After Megan was shot, obviously a lot of people, her fans, people in the industry, were really concerned about her.

They were worried about her. But unfortunately, there were also people who, like, made jokes about this happening to her. And people who even questioned if she was even telling the truth, including the man that she's accusing. of shooting her. It's terrible. And it even led to Megan writing a New York Times op ed addressing the controversy

but also addressing what she sees as widespread disrespect of black women. What she's pointed out is black women not being protected. Black women not being protected from violence, but black women also having their stories

and experiences belittled and dismissed. So she addressed in New York Times op ed and she also addressed the controversy and address Tori Lane's on her opening track, Shots Fired. Shots Fired is a really interesting song, and it's a way to go straight at the controversy. Like, let's get it out the way. First song, let's talk about it.

All right, here's Shots Fired off of Megan the Stallion's new album, Good News. Imagine niggas lying by shooting the real piss. Just a safe face for rapper niggas you chill with. Imagine me giving a part of. I think that's super bold. She addresses this issue. It doesn't wait a second. It's right there, top of the album, basically beat one.

Beat one. Opening, first thing she says. And also she's using this iconic beat. She's using the Biggie who shot your beat, right? Which is like famously one of the most famous disc tracks maybe or maybe not. about Tupac. But she's not your separate the weak

from the obsolete hard to creak them Brooklyn streets it's all nigga fuck all that bicker and beef but she's using this in this way that it's like it's not your traditional

disc track in that she's beefing with Tori Lanes Tori Lanes is a person who assaulted her but she is using this track to answer this question that was like kind of floating around

about like what happened with this incident who shot Megan how did this happen but she's also using it to sort of call out the the BS of the person

she sees as her assault or denying it, but then also people sort of talking about it and making speculations and questioning her. Megan is known for being bold. And this is a really bold way of opening an album, especially one that's called Good News, because I think a lot of what we get through the rest of this album

are lots of fun, upbeat things. We'll talk about some of that music, but she has to get this out of the way. This is the most important thing. it is such a clear statement. She is delivering the news at the top of her album. Okay, so the next song I want to talk about,

and I think me and you both really appreciate this song, is Circles. It's not every bitch wrong. It's not every big big song that actually gets people all dancing on a song. Zoom call, but like this immediately, you have to move. You have to dance to it. So much fun.

What speaks to you about circles? Okay, so I love this song. Like you said, it is such a good dance. I mean, there aren't clubs anymore, but it's definitely something you would want to dance to. It's using this like bounce adjacent beat. The sample is R&B singer Jasmine Sullivan. I think it's just a real clever and fun way to use the sample.

One thing about it, like not exactly the same flow, but something about her flow on here reminds me of Trina, a female rapper from like, she's still around making music, but her height of popular, like, the early 2000s. Something about her flow is similar to Trina on this. I just think it's a fun song. The other crazy thing, you know, I mentioned that it samples Jasmine Sullivan. But one thing we discovered was that, like, everybody is credited on this song. And, Charlie, you did a little bit of digging to figure out, like, what's going on here.

Oh my gosh, there's just like reference upon reference within this track. So I expected a big single by Megan to maybe be like more of a trap beat. But this is a through and through bounce beat that has this little illusion to In My Feelings, the Drake track from a few years back. Which is also a bounce piece that is interpreting the famous bounce Trigoman beat. I'll share that episode in our show notes. There's a really fun history of recycling of beats within New Orleans bounce music. And I love that she's finding a new way of interpreting that music. But what really surprised me in these references was, as you were noting, the endless credits on this song.

I have to just like pull them up for a second because it's totally mad. The biggest people in hip hop supposedly wrote this track. We have written by Dougie Follett's. Fresh, Foxy Brown, Slick, Rick, Dre, Nas, Curtis Mayfield, R&B, in here. We got Mary J. Blige, Diddy. It just goes on in on and on. Most importantly, Missy Elliott's in there. And I'm just like, how did so many people participate in one song?

And, you know, I went and I did my little digging, and I was like, okay, so Megan the Stallion, samples, Jasmine Sullivan, holding you down. And this is a Missy Elliott production with Canaan Lamb. And what's so fun about this is that that track also samples so many other things. So it samples a Mary J. Blyde's track. It samples affirmative action by Foxy Brown and Nas. It samples Make the Music with Your Mouth by Biz Marquis. It has a Curtis Mayfield sample, a Marvin Gay sample. It goes on and on and on.

And so what's fun about this sort of chain of samples is you hear Megan the Stallion, I mean, I think the title circles is kind of appropriate because I feel like we are running through an entire history of hip hop in this single track where there's just like references upon references upon references. It's this sort of meta-narrative. And I said that Megan the Stalian's bold, one of the things I really appreciate about her, I think she is pretty self-aware that she is placing herself in this sort of pantheon and hip-hop. It's pretty amazing. It's pretty amazing how that song is built on so much history of hip-hop. And that's like only the second song on the album. Like that's the other amazing thing about it. Like there's so many good songs on this album.

It's one thing to make reference to the whole history of hip hop and sort of try to place yourself in it. And it's another thing to actually have earned it. And one of the reasons why Megan the Stallion really speaks to me is that she's one of these artists where you can hear just one or two seconds of her songs and you know it is her. She has such a particular style. Even when she's interpreting other people's work, when she's borrowing other flows, the timbre of her voice, her particular flow. Like, she is wholly her own person, and there's very few people that I think develop a voice that you can recognize so quickly. I think she has a very distinct voice, but she also has a really relatable voice. That's the thing that I thought has also, like, propel Megan the Steyian's success.

Like, she, strange, it's very boastful and, like, is, you know, very much, like, confident in a way that most of us just, like, really hope to be on our best day, right? Right, right, right. But Megan Nostagian, I think as an artist and a person, really resonated with a lot of people. It's being relatable in a lot of ways. For sure. The openness, even in her music, like what she's talking about. Like, if we go back to something like shots fired or even circles, it's her, like, talking about her personal experiences. It's her talking about, like, how great of a rapper she is, but also what she's going through.

And I just think that that also really resonates with people that she's, like, the best. And also, she seems like she could be your. a friend, you know? Totally. It's powerful to both be boastful and vulnerable in the same piece. In circles, there's this great line where she acknowledges a lot of her hardships. Bullet wounds backstabs, mama died still sad at war with myself in my head, bitch is Baghdad. Just bullet wounds, backstabs, mama died still sad at war with myself in my head.

It's Baghdad. That's just incredibly powerful line. It acknowledges depression, real loss and trauma. admits this piece, which she's also, you know, really pulling herself back up at the same time. Okay, let's talk about one more before we move on from The Great Megan. Let's talk about Do It on the tip featuring the City Girls, another rap duo who's had a great year. I think I can't take this, Charlie, maybe you can't. When they really toilet water, they don't go against me.

They're going to go balka ball. I'm going to get them in the end like Sima Descartes go. Oh shit, I think I'm pregnant. I think I can say this, Charlie. Maybe you can't. It's just a bad bitch mashup. Like, we have Megan on here. The city girls are on here.

And it's like all the bad bitch mantras. And so I just think it's a fun song. I think it's like a great example of how like all out of these women rappers are also supporting each other and working with each other, which is really beautiful to see. Yeah, I agree. I don't mean to be too punny with the metaphors, but like I like that Megan the Stallion is not playing the horse race here and is collaborating and, yeah, bringing other women's voices into the fold. Very cool. All right, yeah, what else is happening? You've brought me lots of other fun tracks. What else has inspired you recently? All right. Our next artist is going to take a trip to Alabama for Flo Millie.

Tell me about Flo Millie. So Millie had a big single that came out, B-Flow Mix, when she was still a teenager. And that was like her big song. I like cash in my hair to my ass. Do the dash, can you make it go fast? Fuck the fame. All I want is them bands.

If she keep on mugging, I'm a still-or-man. He's watching my behavior because he know I'm... Her latest album that dropped this year. It's called Ho, Why's You Here? My favorite title of an album this year. I don't know about you. Not a Christmas album. And the song I want to talk about is We.

These niggas. So, ew, they've been texting me all week, just let me be. Blowing me up, I'm trying to sleep. I ain't so free. So don't be calling out the three. I do what these bitches don't. That's why they running back to me. Run their cash-o.

So that song is really fun. It samples Week by SWV. And one of the reasons I really like that it uses that sample, because it's another example of like a clever, use of a sample. So the original song, Weak by SWV, it's a beautiful song, but it's about their love interest, how their love is making them weak, and everything this man does just makes them so weak in love. And Flo Millie completely flips that and basically calls every man that's pursuing her weak. So she like names them all. Like here's what's wrong

with them all. Hey, I'm about to hit up Christian. I ain't seen them in a minute. Didn't let's be on my mind, but that nigger don't like to listen Malik's too fucking boring He always up in his feelings I know Eric got a girlfriend But I'm no one he'd be missed And all these niggas hit me up when they be craving And they're all weak

Like I'm not weak fan, they're the weak ones And I just love that. It's so funny Yeah, I love when a properly chopped sample Has subtext to the song And it's funny because the thing that first took me About this track was also the sample But I wasn't aware of it Because, I mean, the SWV song is basically a ballad.

And this is so upbeat, so fun. It's just a great example of how you can sonically recontextualize something. And then also, lyrically, take that meaning and flip it on its head. It's so fun. And even using these samples, like, we talked about Megan. We're talking about Floom Millie. But, like, I find in this, like, sort of crop of female rappers, they're doing this a lot. So another example of someone who,

who did this with Suiti, who we've talked about on the show before. And her song, Tap In, it flips Two Shorts Blow the Whistle. And, like, I don't know how else to describe that, but, like, Too Short, his music, that song, it's very male. Like, it's very, like, for the guys. I don't know. I like the song. Women like the song. But it's very male, if that makes sense.

And the male gaze, if you will. Sure. But, like, Suite completely flips that song. And it's like, I'm going to tell you had a bag of eight-figure dude. Like, it is a song. for the girls. Like, she completely flips it. And, like, even if you go back to Cardi B, who, like, some people feel, like, helped usher

in this era of female rappers, Bodak Yellow is a Kodat Black song in which she sort of makes this anthem that we all enjoyed, but, like, very much an anthem for the girls. But that isn't new. Like, this tradition is something that goes back to, like, early days of hip-hop. Well, I feel like one of the things that happens so often in very, like, cursory criticism about sampling is, oh, you just took this other song, it was really popular, and you just did, like, you didn't really do anything new to it. And it's unsurprising that that kind of criticism is often leveraged, especially against

female rappers, it's just like, oh, you know, can you even rap? Can you even make your own stuff? And I think the examples you've given here are so perfectly show that, no, no, no, no, no, it's all about reclaiming the meaning of another song, especially if it's coming from the male gaze. And one of my favorites in hip-hop history are the Roxanne Wars. So in 1984, the group U-TFO puts out the track, Roxanne, Roxanne. Yo, EMD. Yeah, what's up, man? They go that girl they call Roxanne. She's all stuck up. Why, you say fat? Because you wouldn't give a guy like me no rap. But she was walking down

street. And it's clever. It's a fun song. It's these two guys trying to pursue a woman named Roxanne and she keeps turning them down. But the way that they talk about her is less than flattering. They call her stuck up Roxanne. She paid me no mind. And what's so fun is that this then inspires this whole lineage of response songs, but probably the most famous is Roxanne Chante's Roxanne's Revenge in which she totally flips the script.

And she's like, these guys tried to pursue me. they were total losers, like, I'm way more talented than they are. And frankly, many of her rhymes actually are. She's got a really great flow. And she, by the end of the song, basically, she, by the end of the song, basically, it says, your plot is over. She claims power. Why'd you have to make a record about me, the R-O-X-A-N-E?

She was like, leave me alone. Like, she both totally takes their work, subverts it. It's the same beat, and she makes a better version of it, and then creates an entire spin-off series that goes on for years and years. Other people claiming to be the real Roxanne. It's this whole wonderful narrative. It's a good, fun deep dive for another episode. That is fun.

All right. After the break, we're going to talk about three rappers that I'm very excited about that are pushing the boundaries of what rap is right now. Maria, you have a podcast now. and you need to start acting like it. What's the first step as a podcaster? Well, you have to ask lots of questions. I'm Maria Sharpova, and I'm hosting a new podcast called Pretty Tough.

Every week, I'm sitting down with trailblazing women at the top of their game to discuss ambition, work ethic, and the ups and downs that come on the path to achieving greatness. I have a few pretty tough questions for you. Okay. Ready? Do not sugarcoat something for me. No, no.

We'll dive into their stories, and get valuable insights from top executives, actors, entrepreneurs, and other individuals who have inspired me so much in my own journey. Pretty tough is your front row seat to the women who have demonstrated the power in being unapologetic in their pursuits. I hope you'll join us. New episodes drop Wednesdays on YouTube or in your favorite podcast app. Immigration may be Donald Trump's signature issue.

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Real talk, I loved the first half. Great music. But I'm actually most excited about the three artists you've got here in the second half. lead us off what are we listening to? All right, so our first is Tierra Wack. The song is Peppers and Onions. Tierra Wack has released us several singles this year. This is one of my favorites.

This is probably my favorite of all the tracks. It's doing so many things. I love that it enters with a whistle. It's so casual. It's so, like her hook says, she's only human. And so I think there's something really intimate about her just sort of confronting her celebrity and really trying to plead with her singing voice, like, hey, I'm just human. I'm just like trying to figure this whole thing out.

I'm only human. She follows that up with much more sort of pointed commentary. I don't want to be judged, I just want to be me. I don't want to be judged, I just want to be me. Even though we buy a chains, we just want to be free. I don't want to be judged. I'm getting so much of her personality in this song. That's very true.

It makes me also think about something we see with Meg. this ability to make these songs that are both vulnerable but also fun. Right. I read an article in which she talked about some of these singles that have come out this year and how they are very much reflective of where she is. This year we've gone through this being like a hard year for a lot of people, her sort of having to navigate fame amidst so much chaos happening in the world. So I also love this track and some of the other tracks that she came out with this year

because they are so vulnerable and they're so honest and they so speak to, like, I think, a feeling that a lot of people have right now. She's great with words because she's able to encapsulate all of that often in just a couple of rhyming couplets. The pros in the cons are being a bomb, baby you can't have a ticket might not be your time,

but oftentimes I gotta remind myself to combine my thoughts and never deny my help. And she's also extremely fly. I mean, I know we're not here to like, whatever. Like, do I hear to talk about it, women's appearances? All of these women are amazing looking and fly. Tierra has an amazing style. Check out our Instagram.

I think a lot of folks were maybe skeptical that Tierra Wack first landed on the scene by putting out these one-minute songs on Instagram, something that could seem a little gimmicky. And I think with Peppers and Onions and so many of other tracks, she has established herself as somebody who has a real unique voice and we are going to see a lot more from her in the coming years. Yes, I'm really excited to see what Tierra Wack is going to do. So another artist who I'm really excited about is Rico Nasty, who is from the D.C. area where I live, D.C. Stand-Up. Her latest album, Nightmare Vacation, just drop. RICO is a really great artist in her own right, and she's on so many songs that I love, including Tia Tamara with Doja Cat. But on this new album, one of the songs that I absolutely love, it's called Oh, For Real. And I just, I feel like it is a song that begs.

to be outside of quarantine time. Like, this is a song that, like, you need to be in the streets for. So, O for Real, spelled O-H-F-R question mark. Here is. Oh, for real? So that song is so aggressive. It's so in your face. And I say it's like one of those things that I feel like you want to be at a festival.

You want to be in a club, getting hype when it comes on. Me, I just get hype in my living room. But I love that song so much. And then one thing I also like about that song, like the aggression on it. I think it has like these punk alternative vibes, but it also like has these vibes of like some, a few songs that like came out in the early 2000s.

Like I'm thinking of songs like Bea Bia by Little John. And even like Rico Nasty's verse on it reminds me of China White's verse on Bea Dia. I'm also thinking about songs like never scared by bone crusher, Nuck if you buck by crime mob. Like all of these songs are very in your face, very aggressive. And Rico, like, has all of that energy here. I'm hearing absolutely that lineage of, like, aggressive in your face rap,

but it is punk rock. It's also heavy metal. And it makes sense because if you look at her collaborators and the kind of stuff that she's done, she is, I think, pretty smart in finding people that are, like, on the cutting edge with new sounds. So on, oh for real, she's working with Dylan Brady of the group 100 Gecks,

who were known for their track money machines. I could smoke you. I could roast you. And then you'd love it. You text me. I love you. And then I fucking ghost you. They're kind of this hyper pop group

that uses lots of video game, glitchy sounds. It's in your face sometimes of noxious, very kind of punk attitude, and they are getting a lot of critical acclaim. It's sometimes hard music, I have to admit, to listen to because it's out there. But I think it's smart of her to sort of find those people that are coming up and working with them on a track, really smart move. But more importantly, is, like, her sound. And I really think, like, she is equal parts heavy metal, not just in her vocal timbre. I mean, she's almost. screaming.

Often in the sounds that she's choosing as well, there can be a super medley kind of vibe. It makes me think of her other song, Rage. So many people are feeling anger and rage right now, and she's so effective at channeling that emotion and giving it to us. As I mentioned, RICO's from the D.C. area,

and a lot of people don't know this, but D.C. was one of like the first really influential scenes for punk rock and DC continues to have a really vibrant punk rock presence. And I think you can hear the influence of that in Rico's music. Okay, let's move on to another artist we're both really excited to talk about, Chica. Truly. Chica's debut album came out this year. It's called Industry Games. She's a really dope lyricist as well as singer. She was included in the double XL freshman class this year. She's nominated for a Grammy for Best New Artist. Some of my favorites on her album are Balenci's.

And Crown. Young girl, oh dream, oh soul, oh dear. Plan B, plan well. Good laugh, no fear. Both have their sort of gospel sound. And Crown is a really cool song because it was the first full rap song that Chica ever wrote. Can you imagine, like, your first rap song, and is this good, like your first try? Wow. Yeah.

But I say the biggest song from the album, and rightfully so, is songs about you. Listen, I met Hove last week. That shit was he introduce me as best of the new school. Not too shabby for an Alabama bitch for getting rich. I got respect from heavy hitters and did it without a disc. And now I came to deliver. I'm off a Twitter. And in your speakers, we going to see who really fucking whitter.

Man, I can't wait to see the job. Boom. This song gives me goosebumps every time I hear it. I love that we are getting right from the beginning. This is like Chica confronting, hey, I've like learned from the masters. I'm stepping out. I've got my completely own style. And she did it all without ever putting out a next tape of disc.

She's having this meteoric moment that she's self-reflective about. What's particularly stunning, though, for me isn't just the content. it's how she presents it. This is one where I totally rabbit hold. So if you'll allow me, I would really like to show off how incredible her flow is. Yes, please. Okay. What I heard in just her verse first is how in just a few lines,

she could introduce so many different kinds of rhyme schemes that are both surprising and also completely logically consistent. Here's what I'm saying. When we first get Chica, she rhymes the words, cool with school in her first two lines, right on the last beat of each measure. Listen, I met Hove last week. That shit was he introduced me as best of the new school. This is cool because rhyming the last word of your line on the last beat of the measure, that is like old school style hip hop rapping. That's how rap is rap.

That's how rapper is rap. But now she's going to blow it up because in her next. line, she's going to increase the amount of rhymes. So we have a new for an Alabama bitch for getting rich. I got respect from heavy hitters and did it without a disc. So we have cool school and we have a new rhyme scheme.

We're off of the word rich. She's introduced an additional rhyme within the line. And then she's going to carry that rhyme over into her next line. I got respect from heavy hitters and did it, hitter did it. It's kind of an assonance and alliteration. So she's introducing a new sort of like sub rhyme within her rhyme, landing on without a disc.

Okay. So we've got Alabama bitch getting rich, hit his did it without a disc. So we've gone from the old school style of hip hop into a new school style of hip hop where we've got multiple rhymes happening within the line and rhymes in between rhymes, really creative. So the first pair, we have a pair of rhymes. And this next one, we have three rhyming words. She's going to up the ante with her final sort of extended rhyme.

We're going to get four rhymes in a row, but they're going to be buried on new beats with intermined rhymes in between. I came to deliver. I'm off of Twitter. And in your speakers, we going to see who really with her. And now I came to deliver. I'm off to Twitter. You and your speakers, we're going to see who really with her. those rhymes landing on new parts of the beat

we're not landing on the end of the beat we're not landing on the four we're landing on the three and so she's shifting her rhythm the feeling of that is like things are getting quicker right it's like the rhyme scheme is happening more quickly and then she's going to give us a whole new set of rhymes to take us into another direction

man I can't wait to see the jazz drop collectively when these songs are notorious with the art pop one hell of a picture Man I can't wait to see the jaws drop collectively when these songs drop notorious with the art pop all those happening syncopated in between the beat

landing with one hell of a picture so we've got to deliver Twitter with her Jaws Drop songs drop Art Pop picture Am I making any sense here like it's impossible to describe Yes that makes a lot of sense

Thank you for a peek into your music geek brain Now let's hear it Listen I met Hove last week That was hella cool Did he introduce me his best to be in school? I'm not too shy before in Alabama. In between rhymes. Third rhyme.

Shifting the time. I'm off a Twitter. Fourth ride in between. Man, I can't wait to see the jazz rock collectively when these songs are notorious with the art pop one hell of a picture. And we land back on our third rhyme on the picture. Whew. Here's the thing. There's a lot of rappers that have got great dictionaries.

They can rhyme things. No problem. But she has a consistent narrative with creative rhyme schemes that are happening faster and faster, making commentary on the history of a certain style of rapping, and also propelling the song forward, creating that sort of angst and tension that she's feeling about this like, hey, like, jaws are dropping, songs are dropping, art is popping, like, this is a moment. And so you feel the intensity of that moment in the way that she establishes her rhymes. And even when we just listen back to it, like I thought about how like the melody in that in those rhymes, like how she also uses like the sort of singing in it also helps sort of break up that traditional rhyme structure because there were so many of it's like, oh, that's also going up on a note and like coming back down. Like it's really beautiful and it makes it even more complex. And like I'm then like it makes me wonder like I want to talk to Chica. I want to know like what goes into writing a song like this.

Yeah. How do you do it? Like, does the melody come first and you put the rhyme in? Like, how do you do it? It's really, really fascinating. Tika, that's, if you want to come to switch on pop and talk to us about it, there's an open invitation. We're here for you. My last thing I just want to gush about is I love the creative wordplay that she has in her next verse.

And doing shit, I ain't fond of it's like my name isn't Jane. I'm 22 making money. I feel too blessed to complain. But I'm much better. Doing things I ain't fonda. My name ain't jane. That's amazing. And Jane, which rhyming back with complain, and then playin turns into complain.

Lovely. I love it. It's fun. It's funny. It's deep. Thank you for introducing it to me. Of course. It's fun and funny, but it's also deep.

And I think that that's like a running theme we've seen through, like, all of these rappers we're talking today. Like their ability to make this fun music, to make this music you want to dance to, to make this music that makes you want to like play it over and over. again, but they are effortlessly vulnerable, too, on these tracks. Yeah. Which is not always an easy thing to do and not a thing that we have always seen in hip hop. Like, some of the best rappers do it very well, but like many times, like our favorite songs that's a club hit is not also going to make you feel the feels, you know? Right, right.

And a lot of these songs do. As we're sort of wrapping up and thinking about some of the bigger themes that we're hearing, like this idea of vulnerability, interplaying with fun, upbeatness, I'm really. really taken by the fact that really none of these songs are trap songs, all these women are making music that is grabbing attention and not using the most prominent form of hip-hop beat. And I think that that is particularly important here. They're really paving new territory in terms of sound. They're doing things which are sort of a little off the wall. And they're doing it with great talent with a lot of complexity and flow in lyricism. There's a great. There's a

great degree of creativity and originality that's happening here. So we just talked about all of these amazing women who are rapping and really pushing the boundaries of what, like, rap is, and even what the dominant sound is right now, which you pointed out is trap. And I think one of the reasons that, obviously they're doing this because they're talented, but despite having so many more choices and so much of a larger platform where women rappers can be recognized, there's still those same pressure. and the same sort of unequal playing field,

in which I think women rappers are judged more harshly for their lyricism, right? So in their music, they have to really go places that rap isn't necessarily going right now, I think to stand out in a lot of ways, which is, you know, great for us, and it's great that they're putting that all in their music. But I do still recognize this double standard in which these women are essentially making and creating these new sounds and doing it in this way that is vulnerable and beautiful.

And they're like great rappers too. As you just pointed out, like, Chika's amazing rhyme scheme, but they're still sort of like, we're in this moment where we're celebrating that they're getting the recognition that male rappers with like half of their talent have gotten for years.

Which is like, glad we're living in this moment, right? Like, glad that, like, we get to be the beneficiaries of this amazing music. but these old tropes and these old ways of sort of judging women rappers are still around. Yeah, absolutely. And I think one of the things I really appreciate about the way that you've presented these tracks is really seeing them each as their own artists doing their own thing. This is not about creating ranks of who's better than who.

And there's so many other great artists that you have brought to the show that we didn't get to talk about. Artists like Rhapsody, no name, Dreezy, Cash Doll, outstanding rappers that just, we don't have the time to talk about now, but we will add certainly to our playlist because there's so much music to celebrate. And as you put it, this is not an era of dominance where one person is getting all the credit. This is really a time to let many women shine. And I appreciate you sharing all this music with us. Thanks for letting me come regale you with my music choices, Charlie.

This episode of Switched on Pop was produced by Bridget Armstrong and Meet Charlie Harding. We're mixed edited and engineered by Brandy McFarland, illustrations by Iris Gottlie. and social media by Abby Barr. Our executive producers are Liz Kelly Nelson and Ashok Karawa. Remember of the Vox Media Podcast Network. You can check out anything we do at switchdownpop.com

and on social media at Switchdon Pop. We'll be back again next week doing a holiday episode. I'll be interviewing the great Chili Gonzalez about none other than Wham's Last Christmas. It's been really fun.

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