TAKE ONE Presents... - The Xenopod 9: Outro

Episode Date: December 27, 2023

Final report of the podcast, The Xenopod. We've watched all the Alien franchise films and offer this final report on our findings, the various themes that have emerged as we went through, and some thoughts on the future of the franchise. With a little luck, the network will pick this up. This is The Xenopod, signing off. Our theme song is Alien Remix by Leslie Wai available on SoundCloud: ⁠https://soundcloud.com/lesliewai/alien-remix⁠This podcast was recorded during the 2023 SAG-AFTRA strike. Without the labour of the actors currently on strike, the film being covered here wouldn’t exist.

Get away from her, you bitch away from her, you bitch! Hello and welcome back to the Xenapod, a podcast where we watched all the alien franchise films in order, contextualize them and critique them. I'm Simon Bowie, and joining me for this final episode of the Xenapod, where we're going to wrap things up, is, as always, my co-host, Jim Ross. Hello. Hi, Jim. Merry Christmas

Yeah, I know It sounds a bit funny Because we're recording these air at a time But yes, indeed, Merry Christmas But yeah, this is coming out In that lull between Christmas and New Year As a special treat for listeners

It's not We're not reviewing the official aliens' Christmas film Which is Prometheus Or the unofficial alien Christmas film Which is Alien vs Predator Requiem Although actually, looking at the release state of this When this comes out Happy Birthday to Me

the day after us comes out. Oh, wonderful. Merry Christmas. Happy birthday. That lull. The lull between Christmas and New Year, otherwise known as Jim's birthday. The gym period.

Yeah, today we're going to wrap up. We're going to offer some thoughts on the franchise as a whole, look at some of the themes that we've discussed over this podcast, share our rankings of the franchise, and sort of look towards future alien friends. franchise projects or projects that never got off the ground for one reason or another. Before we get started, I'll say that this podcast was recorded during the 2023 saga after a strike, and without the labour of the actors currently on strike,

the film being covered here, covered here, wouldn't exist. And I really, really hope by the time that this comes out that strike is done with. Hopefully it'll be resolved. I can't help us if it's still going on when this is actually published. I can't see the studios. wanting to extend this into Oscar season. I think that'll be the big, you know, breaking point for the studios. Finally, Oscar season is good for something.

Good for labor relations, unexpectedly. Yeah, exactly. So I went back to listen to our first episode where we did a little intro episode and what we wanted to do with this podcast, setting out our stall, as it were. I wanted to ensure that we met our aims and objectives. for this project. So we talked a lot about treating the alien franchise as a continuous text and looking at it as one media text, which I think we tried to do, but we had trouble because the franchise itself

is so discontinuous. Different directors, different historical periods of production. A couple of recurrent themes came up over the podcast, like what you termed the identity crisis, a term that really stuck for us as we went through these films, where they do have a crisis about what they want to be. I think that really starts in aliens, right? Like right almost at the beginning of the franchise, because it's so different from alien. Yeah, because the funny thing is, I mean, you're right, it does start right from the off, and I think it's one of the things that's praised, and I think we've even said in the episode,

one of the most praised things about aliens is the fact that it takes this blueprint the alien set down and it basically takes it in a related but very different direction, right? And that's how it kind of makes itself its own beast and I think probably what made that film so successful. I think the funny thing is other films in this series

then tried to do it to varying degrees of success. So, like, it really does start from the off. I think one of the other difficulties in taking it as a continuous text is what direction you actually take that from, right? Because you can do it as you can do it

based on characters, right? In which case you've kind of got the four films that centre around Ellen Ripley, you've got Prometheus and Covenant together, because they're basically kind of like, you know, one's a direct sequel to the other, and then they offshoot kind of alien versus predator affair.

So you could do it that way. You could do it chronologically, right? So you could start off with you know, Prometheus, well, I mean, suppose technically you'd have to start off with Alien versus Predator and Requiem, which you might have to. just give up after that but then you know that and then you'd have Prometheus and Covenant and then you'd have

you know the series based on Ripley or you know I think that's also part of the issue here is a very convoluted is a very convoluted set of films in terms of what angle you want to take it from I think the angle we've gotten with the release order I think that is the way to do it because I think

that kind of best reflects the times in which each of these were made as well but you know you could argue it for other other ways to do it So that's another thing we've discussed, this kind of multimedia versus transmedia franchise and how that has developed with kind of blockbuster paradigms. So there's different routes into the franchise as we've discussed through this podcast and kind of subjective roots.

Like we talked about Rudiger Heinz's articles on the alien universe and these meta-cinematic universes. And yeah, these different routes in which you've just talked about. but they also reflect these kind of shifting paradigms of Hollywood blockbuster entertainment. So we mentioned in one podcast that Alien comes out during a period where Kramer versus Kramer is at the top of the box office charts, which is just feels inconceivable today. Yeah, yeah. You know, it really takes us from the kind of dying days, I suppose, of New Hollywood,

through this kind of 80s blockbuster era, a kind of 90s cheaper blockbuster era, and then to the kind of huge productions, your MCUs and your Star Warses that we have today. Yeah, and it's hard to separate that out, right? Because, I mean, several of the films, particularly the first two alien aliens that we've spoken about, they're quite, you know, I mean, it's a big well-known franchise

and those two films in particular. They're quite influential films, right? So there's a little bit of a chicken and egg scenario here. But, like, Alien feels like a film from the 1970s, right? It has the pacing and the kind of just feel of a 70s film. Same for aliens, right? It sits quite nicely alongside kind of this 80s action film template that kind of developed, albeit it's got its own ideas and, you know, I think it's a bit more intelligent than some of those.

But it's very but comfortably at home in that. And then on the less kind of, you know, film. that didn't fare quite so well from a kind of critical perspective when we were talking about them. Even the likes of Alien Resurrection, it feels like a very late 90s film, right? You know, it's... It feels very late 90s. We talked about the kind of casual teenage boy misogyny of that film and the kind of teenage aspect of a lot of the script decisions. Yeah.

You know, so, like, and as I say, there's a bit of a chicken and egg thing here. Like, you know, are the films reflecting the time which they've made, or are they, influential in what falls and I think for the first couple I think there's you know I mean aliens a tough one because it came right at the end of the 70s right but I think still around that time it probably had an influence I think aliens despite you know it's a little bit of both I think for something like resurrection it's more it's reflecting the time it's made in I don't think alien resurrection is a particularly influential film in that respect but um no but yeah it's it's just interesting to look at and I think like another thing about taking these things as a continual text is the sheer length

of time that this spans, I mean, if you think about the original Star Wars films, that's still, like, you know, what, less than a decade, you know, I mean, from, like, you know, the, you know, from Star Wars, as it was called, before it was retitled, the New Hope, through to the Return of the Jedi, it's not a particularly long period of time, whereas if you look at even just alien through to alien resurrection, we're talking about, so that was 97, 79, you know, we're talking about, like, what, 28 years, you know, like, it's, it's, it's, You know, it's an enormous period of time, and we're talking about maintaining the lead character also in that case across that time, long before, you know, legacy sequels were even really kind of a thing that we spoke about. There is a kind of interesting consistency in the films. I mean, you've just spoken about how they have different tones, and I agree. But there is a kind of consistency that you get in going from Alien to Alien Covenant that you'd,

don't see in, say, Mission Impossible, which you go back to the first one, and it feels so 1996. Oh, yeah. It almost feels entirely different from where it's ended up. There's been a massive shift. And, of course, you see shifts

in the Alien franchise, like the Alien versus Predator films feel very different. And maybe what I'm talking about here is simply because Ridley Scott came back and did the last two. So there's this kind of bookending of tone and,

production design and vision. I mean, to do the Mission Possible comparison, like, it's funny. I mean, I think Mission Possible is another series of films where you could actually do something like this, but I don't think it would be as interesting to look at, right, because of the focus of those films. But in terms of the kind of consistency of tone, I think Mission Possible has its own phases, right? And I think basically, once you hit, let's say, Mission Possible five onwards, right?

I think they're pretty, you know, they're pretty consistent after that point. But I think prior to that, the way it kind of feels a little bit similar to the Eileen series is in bringing different directors to it, right? I mean, like, the shift from De Palma to John Wu, right, from one to two. It feels very stark. That feels very stark, almost in the way that the shift from Ridley Scott's horror film to James Cameron's action film feels with the first two, right? So I think you're right in the sense that it's Ridley Scott came back to it, right? I think that's what I'm thinking of.

Because Mission Impossible vacillates until it finds a groove. Alien almost immediately finds a groove and then goes off it to get back into that groove 30 years later or whatever, 40 years later. But even then, even then it's not 100% consistent because I think Ridley Scott comes back to it

and that brings a certain tone and approach that is what makes it feel similar. But he comes back to it with much kind of grander scale ideas, right? I mean, like, at least he does with Prometheus, and then they immediately get rained back in to an extent with Covenant. But it's interesting, even within that, it kind of, it kind of makes you think about where he would have gone with it if he'd actually stuck with the immediate sequels.

I would have been interested to see where... I feel like almost if you didn't have that disconnect, maybe you would have ended up with something a bit more coherent, but, you know, yeah. We've watched all the alien franchise films, and we've both done rankings for the alien franchise films. Now, I was aware when we were doing this, that more than likely, alien and aliens are going to be top. We're not, you know, we're not so out there that we're saying anything is better than alien or aliens. But there is some interesting variation, perhaps, in our ranking. rankings so do you want to go first yeah sure I'll fire away as anybody who knows me I'm I'm not

big on rankings so this is done under mild duress but I think you know I think um you ask me on a different day you might get a slightly different ranking here but I think this I think this kind of broadly reflects like especially having watched everything another time and like reflecting on what they were trying to do um I think you know I think I'll probably go with So, number one, it's not really any surprise at Alien, right? I think we both agreed that, like, especially for what that film's trying to do, it's essentially perfect, right? So that's right up there.

I did actually deliberate a little bit about position, too, because I did end up with slightly mixed feelings about aliens when we then spoke about it, but I think that's more to do with the influence of the film itself and, like, what effect it had, rather than the actual text of the film. So, aliens, unsurprisingly, is in second place. I think when push comes to shove, that's where it goes. I think you could make a case for other films going above it, but I think that would be more, you know, slight cynicism about what people learnt from aliens

rather than the film itself. I had the same kind of vacillation. Like, we discussed it in the episode. I don't like what aliens does to the franchise and where it takes it, but it is a well-structured and well-made film. Yeah. And it's, you know, above many of the others that will go on to rank. Yeah, within the confines of the film itself, it's excellent, right?

It's when it goes beyond that, it starts to maybe fall apart. In third position, I have actually put Alien 3. There's a lot about that film I like. I like the grimy murkiness of it, and I think it also shows how you can do that and make it look good, right? Because I think anybody who watches that film and complains about, like, a very flat, samey palette should then go on to watch Alien versus Predator requiem and realize that

there's a lot worse out there and this is actually pretty well done right you know and I keep thinking about the image of one of the prisoners against the rotating fan and the lighting I think this isn't a great looking film it has a lot of problems but I think it

kind of holds itself together well enough and it has a lot going for it I think I also quite like the fact that if you wanted to you could take those three films and make them a nice little self- Contained Trilogy and just leave it at that, right? The vagaries of, like, Hollywood and making money and all the rest of it

mean that we've got the other five films on this list, but I quite like the fact that you could make that little sort of self-contained thing. So for me, for what Alien 3 was trying to do, I like it a lot, and I think it's amazing it pulls off as well as it does, given, like, some of the problems with it. But, yeah, I'm going to put Alien 3 in the third, I think. That's fair, yeah, I think there's a really nice little self-contained. contained trilogy in Alien Aliens and Alien 3 with a nice symmetry to it that we don't stick with because they want to make money. No, no. Now, after this, this is when it starts to get

so quite difficult in my view to rank them, right? So as I say, I think there's a few that aren't hills I'll die on, but fourth I've put, so I'll do four and five together because they essentially come to like, you know, they send it. Yeah, they come as a pair essentially. I have put Covenant above Prometheus. For a few reasons, I think Covenant works better as a film on its own terms and in and of itself. I don't know if it really works as a sequel to Prometheus, but it does enough interesting stuff. And we spoke about this on the last episode. A lot of it comes through kind of Fastbender's character and David and, you know, what it's trying to say through him and I found the actual kind of scenes and action and horror of that effective enough

that I got a lot out of that and I thought it was a really interesting film ultimately what it comes down to is I was kind of less annoyed by it than Prometheus like I mean even rewatching Prometheus the both films suffer from the supposedly smart characters doing dumb things trope I think Covenant suffers from it a lot less than Prometheus I didn't find myself in Covenant actively going What in God's name are you doing at the screen in the way that I did in Prometheus?

The reason both sit so high is because I think they look great and, you know, Ridley Scott is a fantastic director He's an excellent builder of worlds We've seen that with Blade Runner, we've seen that with Alien And I think he really does good work here These films have a lot of problems that we discuss on the episodes but they are entertaining films I think they have interesting ideas

and what it comes down to is I think Covenant executes them a little bit better than Prometheus Yeah After that we've got I've got Alien Resurrection Now this is where Alien Resurrection is not a film I enjoyed

I think I found it quite silly albeit I heard it's good moments that we discussed on the episode It has because I think it has some more interesting imagery That's why it sneaks in ahead of Alien versus Predator. What I will say about Alien versus Predator, which is what I've got in number seven, I think Alien versus Predator does what Alien versus Predator wants to do

a little bit better than what Alien Resurrection wants to do. But I think it's ultimately just a less interesting film, right? I don't think Resurrection necessarily executes its ideas amazingly well, but it does have some nice imagery. Like we spoke about kind of like some of the scenes are kind of like, you know, Ripley, kind of like in the alien nest. I think it does some interesting things with the hybrid alien

human creature, which... The newborn. Yeah, the newborn asset, that's what they called it. You know, which is it, like, it gets a visceral reaction from you. This thing is like, it looks horrible, right? And I think that's a sign of, like, really quite good production work. So I think that's what

sneaks it above it for me. I think alien versus predator as an alien versus predator film, you know, with all the logical holes that it potentially introduces. I still think it achieves what it wants to better in resurrection, but I think ultimately resurrection is just a more interesting film. I think anybody who listened to the episode

will not be particularly surprised that Alien versus Predator Requiem find itself at the bottom here. Like, we spoke about its potential in the first 10 minutes which then just go, you know, go out the window into the blackness of that film. Immediately. It falls off a clip. Yeah, right. And, you know,

And I've thought about even more since we record that I really do stand by what we said in an episode about that film having a really nasty, regressive edge to it. Oh, absolutely. Which is not in the other, which is not in any of the other films. And I think for that reason, beyond the fact that I don't think it's a particularly great film,

I think it just stands so at odds with everything else that has been kind of thematically dealt with in this, that it's a really odd film. It's a really odd film. on its own terms and within its own boundaries, I don't think it's that good, but within the wider discussion of this franchise, it's also a really odd film to sit in this. It's really, it's a strange one. Yeah, it almost doesn't sit with the other films at all. I mean, we talk about these

films as a continuous text, and this is a major discontinuity. Yeah. Because it doesn't even get the themes of the other films, which, you know, Alien starts with this kind of anti-capitalism. The monster is the corporation. The monster represents the rapacious greed of capitalism. And the franchise continues to develop that in as much as it can as a franchise itself, as a product of a capitalist studio system.

But it does, you know, continue to pay lip service to this theme at least. But Requiem just doesn't. Yeah. I mean, I think the main thing for me with that is if you look at basically any other film on this list, with the exception of Alien vs. Predator, but, you know, I think you could, you could make a case there, but if you look at any of the other films on this list, anything that shows up that is, like, a xenomorph or xenomorph-like, right? So I include kind of, you know, protomorphs and zeomorphs and, you know, the various other things that aren't technically the same creature, right? But, you know,

are clearly from the same kind of strand. They're always kind of, like, in some way, I mean, there is the creature horror and body horror stuff kicking around, but they are in all, in all senses, they are metaphorical for something else, right? They are representing something else. I think Alien vs. Breastor Requiem is the first one where they're really not, right? They are just, you know, it's just monsters. Yeah, exactly, right? And like, you know, it's a fantastic creature design, so can you do that with it? Yeah, of course you can. Is it a less interesting film? Absolutely. And then when you put it in a film which is as badly made as Alien versus Predator Requiem, that's how you end up at the bottom of this list. Yeah, there's some slight but

maybe significant differences in our rankings. First, I have Alien. Like you said, I think it's a masterpiece. I think it's perfect for what it does. And it tackles some of the weightier anti-capitalist themes better than any of the other films. Next is Aliens, which I just discussed I have a problem with in the direction it takes the franchise but is a well-crafted and entertaining film that works

on its own merits. So next, I have Alien Covenant, just re-watching it as I discussed in the episode I was so surprised to find how well it worked for me and how effective I found it. Read that review you wrote the time of it.

This is the major revelation of this podcast, to be honest. Absolutely wild. Yeah. I didn't expect it at all. but I really liked how it developed its themes and characters and you know I may not appreciate what it does in terms of explaining the xenomorph but I think as a film it works better than a lot of the other films we've discussed next I have alien three

because I just I think the studio interference really hobbles it maybe if we'd been watching the assembly cut maybe that would be third for me because I see to recall that holding up a little better, having a little more time to breathe, but the theatrical release, it's too fragmented for me to really work. I like the darkness of it, I like the nihilism, but I also like how Alien Covenant gets nihilistic, particularly at the end, you know, with the entire colony, under threat from David and his proto-Zenomorphs. So yeah, much of a muchness, I think Alien Covenant edges it for me. I think the funny thing is, I mean, I have the, I mean, obviously my ranking these two

or the other way around. I could live with, like, Alien Covenant being above Alien. I think, this is where it starts to get kind of like tough, because I don't think Alien, Alien Covenant has its issues, right, and we discuss them. Alien 3, I find, sits a little bit better within my conception anyway of what the Alien series is but at the same time just from filmmaking standpoint Alien Covenant doesn't have anything as

in elegant as that kind of ridiculous maze chase scene that you have in Alien 3 right? That's what stuck with me that the incoherence of that scene which is kind of the main action scene of the film and it's just filmed so incoherently it really doesn't work

the compositing on the Xenemoth puppet doesn't look convincing doesn't hold up So, yeah, I mean, I can, I can, you know, I'm not looking at this going, my God, Simon, are you high? You know, like, I can, I can definitely see it. I think for me, there's something about Alien 3, and it's, it's look, and it's sort of, like, slight griminess, and, you know, also, I mean, the grand irony is, actually, if you ever talk about Alien Francis, I actually argue Alien 3 is the film that has the most iconic image from this series in it, and it's when the xenomorph kind of, like, really goes up to. Ripley's face and she's like grimacing and like squinting her eyes and turn away from it it's just like I find quite funny like generally one of the most maligned film in the series

is the one which has actually given it as one of its most iconic images but um yeah I can I can live it I can love it covenant being above Alien 3 I think um I would do that's say I've put aliens 3 above it but yeah I can I can see why I think it's um alien covenant again and this is going to sound inconsistent right because this is kind of why I put resurrection above Alien versus Predator, but I didn't do it here. I think within the confines of its own film, it's slightly better made. I think within the context of the series, I prefer where Alien 3 sits. But yeah, I can see that.

I thought for a second about Alien Covenant above aliens, but then I thought I really would get AI reactions, and I would have been disowned by at least a couple of friends. the thing is though right I mean this so I mean not that I want to digress us too much but this is where I start to get into my rant

about kind of ranking things and lists right because it depends what your criteria is criteria are rather for ranking right because if we're talking about kind of like you know the wider influence of the film

and what effect it has on other films both within and out with this franchise I think you could argue I think you could make that argument. I think you could look at putting the Alien Covenant above aliens, right? You know, it's like the Shrek argument, like Shrek's a good film. Like, it made every film, maybe it made every animated film for about the pad 15 years after

into this arch kind of Shrek copy, you know. So, like, is Shrek good or is it bad? You know, it's a kind of a, to me, anyway, it's a similar sort of argument here. So, I mean, I would see it. I'd still think you'd be mocked and jeered in the street. but, you know, I could see why that you can make that argument. But I'm not making that argument. Not today, at least.

Under Alien 3, I have Prometheus. And again, on the kind of subjectivity of rankings, I was thinking just this weekend, maybe I should move Prometheus above Alien 3. Because I think the, I was specifically thinking about this in the context of the creator, the Gariff Edwards film, which I went to see this weekend. where the ambition of it and the visual spectacle of it carries a lot of weight for me. I appreciate an ambitious sci-fi, and I appreciate these lofty ideas,

even if they don't quite work or have a script, so that's a bit shunky. So I feel like whereas the script shunkiness stands out for me in Prometheus, a lot more on every subsequent viewing after the first one, I think I'd feel the same way about the creator, where just viewing it this once I can appreciate the scale and the ambition and the script shunkiness annoys me a little

I think if I went back to the creator I'd be more and more annoyed by it every time but it's that ambition that I think Prometheus has that kind of could on a good day for me elevate it above Alien 3 I think for me it was pretty much

it was pretty much firmly ensconced number 5 right it wasn't going to go any lower than that, it wasn't going to go any higher than that. I think, because of the reason you've said, right, I have a lot of problems with Prometheus. We spoke about them and I think, I think the thing for me is the script shankiness to me undermines how grand everything else is, right? Because it has these grand ideas, but it has these characters doing incredibly stupid things. But what I will say is, I think that ambition, combined with the visuals that you get

kind of Ridley Scott delivering in that film and, you know, performances like, you know, fast-benders in the film and things like that, it kind of, it gives it a, it gives it a floor on its quality that means it's never going to dip down to the final three films on this list, right? Yeah. That's the thing. It's a well-enough made film

with good enough performances and interesting enough ideas that there's something for you to glom on to, right? You know, I mean, like for somebody, it might be the ideas, for somebody it might be the visuals, for somebody it might be fast-bender's performance. For other people, it might be two or three of those things. things, right? But all of those things does give it a little bit of a flack jacket against actually being as bad as the, in my view, the final three films on this list, which we have

different orders for, but it's the same three films, right? It was never going to go lower than that on this list, basically. That's it. It's carried along by that ambition and that scope in a way that the other three that I'll get onto aren't similar to the creator. you seen the creator? Not yet, no. I plan to, because I quite like I quite like him as a filmmaker actually, but...

I think the direction is great, you know, not to go off on the creator too much, but I think his direction is great, he is entirely hamstrung by the script, which didn't work, and it is deeply flawed. So next in my list is

Alien vs. Predator. So you had Alien Resurrection after Pomepheus. I've got Alien versus Predator followed by Alien Resurrection. I think for me, the imagery in Alien v. Predator, I take your point about there being interesting imagery in Alien Resurrection, but for me, the interesting imagery in the kind of Lovecraftian imagery of Alien v. Predator

elevates it above Alien Resurrection, in particular because of the flaws of Alien Resurrection, which we discussed, this kind of teenage boy misogynate, The very Josh Whedonie script really irritated me this time round. We discussed it in the episode, but it's got a purient sensibility that I really disliked. Yeah, I think that's fair. I think what I'm sitting doing this, right? I think part of what plays into this, of course, right, is what you remember about the film after, right?

And I think the thing for me is I remember some of the things in Alien Resurrection that I thought were decent, right? Alien versus Predator, I will be perfectly honest, I remember very little of it, right? And it's one of the films that we actually watched most recently, right? It's just, it's a bit of a there and gone film, right? I don't really remember. Actually, honestly, the thing that I remember about Alien versus Predator the most upon rewatching it for this podcast is its plot similar. with Prometheus. Similar to Prometheus. Right,

that's actually didn't, because that's something that I didn't, obviously I hadn't noticed before, because when I first watched Alien vs Predator, Prometheus didn't exist, right? That was honestly the thing that stuck out to me. And, you know, it has its moments, but it's just, to me, it's ultimately a less interesting film. Now, Alien Resurrection,

it has a lot of issues, and I think you've highlighted them, right, and we spoke about that, and I think that, you know, the, you know, the puerile, the puerile humor and kind of locker room, misogyny to it is unfortunate, right? And that drags it down

quite far. I think ultimately, for me, the reason I end up putting above it, above Ealing versus Predidae, is just because there was more memorable imagery. Sure. You know, and I think that's the thing that I've remembered from it rather that, you know, now that you've

mentioned it, yes, I'm remembering all the all the things like, you know, like who, you know, say who have I got to blow around here or something? Anyway, all these ridiculous sort of like lines of script. I'm like, this is, what, what are you talking about? Yeah. So, yeah, this is another one where I can live with, like, you know, the switch that we've made here if I was to do it the other way around. But I think ultimately it's just a, you know,

visual imagery. It's just a bit more interesting to me in the end. I think interestingly, and, you know, arguably this is something we should have done. If I had done my franchise before we start, if I'd done my franchise ranking before we started this podcast, I think Alien Resurrection would have been a lot higher purely because of how I remember it, and I guess I remember it as, I remembered it as quite entertaining, like, fun, schlocky, blockbuster. Maybe we're talking, like, top three, if I'd been doing this at the start of, before we started watching them, but it's, it's the subjectivity of that last experience of watching it, where I just really didn't like it and it really

irritated me for not even fitting with the correct tone like it didn't even have the right tone as the rest of the films and that's something that we talked about the script extensively I think Weiden's script massively misunderstands and

Jean-Pierre as you know's direction doesn't help either I mean looking back at it actually like I mean we didn't mention this shoot the episode but I think about kind of the tone of alien resurrection and you say so like it misunderstands the tone

I'd actually argue it makes no attempt to do so you know it's not even a misunderstands it I think it like honestly like you look at it and it's kind of like you know we discuss kind of like Joss Whedon's reaction to the film and him indicating that the issues were not

with his script well we said and said well sorry Joss that's a little old horses shit because what I would argue is that that's written as a Joss Whedon film it's not written as an alien film you know it's

it's Joss Whedon's concept of what a Joss Whedon alien film would be and so I would argue it makes no attempt to understand so yeah I mean the more we talk about this the more I want to put Alien versus Predator above Alien Resurrection now but I think I'll stick with

the ranking I think yeah I think even Alien versus Predator is more alien franchisee than Alien Resurrection. Yeah, I could see that. And last, Alien vs. Predator Requiem, it's a nasty film, it's a horrible film, it's too dark, the action scenes are boring,

it doesn't work. Yep. So not too dissimilar. No, not really, and I think you could make it. Certainly, the Alien Resurrection, Alien versus Predator order, that really, I think that is a bit of a coin flip for me. I'll stick with it But yeah

Yeah like I say There's only so many films There's only eight films that we're ranking here So there's not a great deal of variation That can be had Especially when We essentially agree that alien is a masterpiece Yeah no and I think

You've got work pretty hard to not have alien second Really I mean You know I think there's a subset of people out there Who probably think we're mad for putting Alien second right Because I know it has its folk You're kind of like oh well you know

because this is the old thing right people keep talking about like you know those sequoids that are better than the original like oh they're so rare here are examples right the ones that always get trotted out or Terminator 2 which I disagree with aliens which I disagree with you know and various

the godfather part two which maybe maybe I agree with you know and all the rest of it but to me alien is is the better film it's not to say that aliens is a bad film we discuss this but to me it is clearly the better film I also, just tangent alert, I don't think this sequels are generally worse than the original's idea actually holds anymore.

I think there's too many examples disproving it now in this day and age to actually have that as one of these unwritten sort of rules of cinema, but that's a different discussion. Yeah, I vastly prefer Blade Runner 2049 to Blade Runner, like massively. It's not just that. You look at it kind of like the, you know, things like, you know, the DC universe and the Marvel Cinematic Universe and blah, blah, blah, that. I mean, there are so many films now are sequels, right? And a lot of them are pretty decent, slash, some of the originals that they have spun off from, aren't that good, that I don't think this rule fits anymore, you know. Like, you know, if you want to take something as disposable, and yes, I will say disposable, it's the Thor films, right? Yep. I mean, who at their right mind is going to say the original Thor is the best Thor? It's madness. You know, so, like, there's that, and then you've got, like, the Cat in America films. Like, I don't think anybody would pick the first Cat in America films, the best Cat in America films. Like, you know, I realize it's kind of, it's reflective of this paradigm that we're now in with Hollywood movie making, but, like, I don't think this.

it's rare for sequels to be better and the original thing is actually true anymore. And I don't think it's been true for the best part of a couple of decades at this point. Anyway, digression over. Yes. So before we talk about the future of the alien franchise,

some proposed projects that are coming out or have been proposed but never made, I want to focus on the present and talk a little bit about where franchise directors are now. Because all these directors have gone on to do interesting things, maybe in different directions from the alien franchise, but we can talk briefly about where they are now. So Ridley Scott obviously came back to the franchise from the first alien,

and we'll discuss some of his proposed projects for the alien franchise in a bit. But right now, he has Napoleon coming out soon, which is a biopic of Napoleon Bonaparte with Joaquin Phoenix, and also Gladiator 2 is coming out soon. And I'd tell you, I'm not sure I've seen Gladiator one. Really? No, I don't think so. I can't remember it anyway. It's a good one.

I have this theory, which I nearly wrote something about, but I never did in the end, about the fact that Ridley Scott, who makes a lot of films, right? And he's made a lot of extremely good films, you know, some of which we've spoken about during this podcast. He also makes a lot of very bad films as well, right? I think purely because he makes a lot of films, right? and I have this theory that basically once a decade he makes a masterpiece

right so you've got alien in the 70s you've got what are his masterpieces yeah so you've got alien in the 70s you've got Blade Runner in the 80s right I don't like Blade Runner

I disagree no what do you do a second podcast so I'm going to stick with Blade Runner and then you've got let's say Thelman Louise in the 90s you've got gladiator in the naughties and then then it starts to get

a little bit more difficult right I think the 2010s I think you could make a case for his best film from the 2010s I'm not going to call it a masterpiece because it has issues but I actually think it's the Martian right good I was going to say the Martian

glad you said that you know so there's that and then we're now into the 2020s and the question is what is it going to be for this right because I haven't seen the last jewel, so I can't speak to that. It's certainly not House of Gucci. So will it be Napoleon, will it be Gladdy or two? I don't know. But this is my theory.

He makes a genuinely brilliant film once a decade. And he'll make kind of like some other bad films, some fairly decent films, you know, at other points. But once a decade, he makes a really good film. And I think we're still waiting for that one in the 2020s. house of Gucci Mamma Mia I'd forgotten about that one but yeah I think it's interesting that

like Alien he's going back to an old film Gladiator 2 is going to be a kind of long you know a long awaited sequel to a film that he made in what did you say it was the 90s

no that was gladiator was 2000 so right at the stars so I suppose technically all his production was probably in the 90s but it was released in 2000 Yeah, so, you know, a good 20-year gap between those films, so it's, you know, is this going to be the Prometheus of his gladiator? James Cameron is stuck in a loop of making endless Avatar films for the rest of time.

He's been cursed by a water demon to make Avatar films forever, and he's in production on, what, Avatar Free Fallen? Surprise twist, the water demon is him and his submarine. Yeah. he went down to the Titanic and he found a cursed necklace or whatever that makes him make these films I'm actually just looking at this right now right by the time Avatar 4 comes out right so one two three four five six seven eight nine ten eleven by the time Avatar four comes out nearly like basically over a third of his filmography will be Avatar films which for a filmmaker who as we discussed your daily's episode sounds like

like an utter arsewall, right? But is a very... Yes, he does. But is a very talented filmmaker. I find that a little bit depressing, to be honest. I'm going to go so far as to say was a very talented film maker. I don't know.

I don't want to digress into the Avatar films here. I think the Avatar films are very well made. I just don't think they're very interesting. It has some of the problems we spoke about these other films. I think their scripts are fundamentally uninteresting. I think they're incredibly made. films, but, like, I'm sorry, that only gets you so far. Yeah, I think there's incredible production and incredible visual effect.

I don't think that makes for a well-made film, but I think that's just a distinction in kind of the definition of well-made, that we're not going to cover here, and we're not going to do a podcast about the Avatar films. Well, there's not a lot to do. There's not a lot to do yet. Or, frankly, to speak to your point about, like, what's done well about them and what's not, Unless we were visual effects experts, there's not really a lot to talk about. Yeah.

David Fincher, who directed Alien Free, has had a hugely successful career after Alien Free, after his debut. He's had some genuinely great films, you know, Fight Club, 7. I feel like there's a David Fincher I am thinking of, but can't get to. Genuine, I would say David Fincher is one of my favourite filmmakers. And I don't... And the funny thing is, I think I watched Alien 3. Zodiac. Zodiac is what I was thinking of. Zodiac's, maybe his masterpiece for me.

I think, I watched Alien 3, I think, really, before I really knew who David Fincher was, right? And I don't think I really knew it was a David Fincher film. I think it was only a few years later once I'd kind of got into David Fincher as a filmmaker. I saw you made Alien 3, I was like, wait, what? and like going back and watching it again since and then once more for this podcast you can see it in there right

I think you know it does have his stamp on it all be a heavily yeah heavily interfered with but you can see it there but genuinely like I think 7 is a brilliant film I thought it really I'm just looking through his film the only film I've not seen from his films is actually the game

now that I think about it but everything at like seven I think is fantastic Fight Club I Fight Club's an odd one right because I think it's a brilliant I think it's an absolutely superb film

I think it has a sort of like place in popular culture and the way people think of it that's actually completely odds with the film itself it's a strange one like that Panic Room I think's a great film Zodiac I think is fantastic you know I think

I think for me I would maybe put seven above it perhaps, which is maybe a slightly controversial thing, but I mean, basically they're both superb. The social network, I think, is a brilliant film. I think we'd like, so you and I have both been contributors to the Synotopia show on EHFM, and then 2020 we did best films of the decade, and pick three, and I pick the social network as one of them. Oh, cool. And I think, what I find funny about the social network also is it came out in 2010, right and really it's portrayal of the founding of facebook and Zuckerberg and the motivations and

everything behind it has aged beautifully you know which i think it's kind of unusual for that sort of it really has aged beautifully um the girl with the dragon tattoo i liked uh but i couldn't say i necessarily consider it a remarkable film gone girl i thought was excellent i'm one of the i'm one of the few apologists for mank actually i thought for what it was trying to do it was actually quite interesting. I quite liked it. I would say it's maybe one of his least interesting films but, you know, I appreciated

it for what it was. Since I'm an amateur film critic, I'm not a professional film critic, I didn't have to sit through Mank, so I turned it off after half an hour. I'll get into it. And then even his television work actually, I found very interesting. I mean, like, House of

Cards, without wanting to get into the Kevin Spacey of all of it, right? The initial seasons of that where he was very heavily involved I thought that was superb and Mind Hunter I think is brilliant so some of the work

yeah some of the work he's gone on to produce since Alien 3 is incredible and then of course at the time we're recording this going around the festival circuit is the killer which I've not seen yet but I'm very interested to see

for all the reasons that we've just said so yeah his next film is the killer which is at BFI London Film Festival and stars alien franchise alumnus, Michael Fastmender, as a hitman, an assassin. And that's a Netflix film, so it's coming out on Netflix before this podcast comes out. The next director is Jean-Pierre Giney, who directed Alien Resurrection.

He went back to smaller, largely French language films. He did Amalie after Alien Resurrection, which is kind of his most successful film. He's subsequently found it hard to get funding for his quirkier films. But he did Big Bug for Netflix, which I believe is about robots and AI and stuff. Alien versus Predator was directed by Paul W.S. Anderson, who I mentioned at the time did a load of video game movies, did like Resident Evil and Monster Hunter and stuff like that. His next film is an adaptation of a George R.R.R. Martin story. And the brother Strauss, the forgotten directors of Aliens versus Predator Requiem, they made the film Skyline and were produced. on a load of Skyline sequels.

I haven't seen Skyline, I'm not sure what's about. But they were sued by Sony Pictures Entertainment over alleged theft of time and resources because they had worked on a similar film for Sony, and Sony is alleging that they, you know, took the visual effects and stuff that they developed for that film to the film Skyline. Nowadays, they mostly manage their company, Hydrox,

which is a special effects company, and they seem to be mostly out of the film. be mostly out of the directing game. So interesting career paths for these different directors. But I want to look forward to the future of the Alien franchise and look at some of the proposed films that will be coming out or that won't be coming out because they never got made. So there's been a number of projects, some of which we've talked about on the podcast, that were going to be made in the Alien franchise almost immediately after Alien. 20th Century Fox wanted to make an alien TV series.

Now, this is only mentioned once in an article in Fangoria in June 1980, where the author of the article talks about 20th Century Fox wanting to make an alien series, and NBC wanted to make a Salem's Lot series, based on the film adaptation of the Stephen King novel. So there's no information about it because it really didn't get anywhere past the idea stage. But interestingly, there is another television series in production that we're going to discuss further down this list. Aliens War Games was a cartoon series which was proposed in 2007 and was kind of supposed to be a continuation of aliens.

Like following the Colonial Marines on their cartoon adventures, There's some concept art that looks very like Gendit Tatovsky's art for Star Wars Clone Wars, and it's obviously meant to be a kind of series of short cartoons like Star Wars Alien's Wargames never got made. It sounds like a god-awful idea to me. It doesn't, I mean, it doesn't sound great to me. I read about it. I mean, I don't know, it's one of these things where, like, the desire to monetize this franchise runs into, kind of what it actually is because I mean I suppose potentially this could have been interesting in a sort of like Saturday morning cartoon type way but like the idea of making a Saturday

morning cartoon type thing the alien franchise just sounds bizarre to me I remember that the kind of Saturday morning cartoon series for Ghostbusters like the real Ghostbusters makes more sense because I can imagine kids watching Ghostbusters and getting a lot out of it whereas I can't really imagine them watching aliens and getting the same thing out of it. No. Alien Earthbound is a script by Stuart Hazeldine, which was a sequel to Alien 3. This was going to be Alien 4. So he wrote this script called Alien Earthbound and he was shopping it about. Ripley gets cloned and teams up with some pirates. There's stuff about getting to Earth, stopping the aliens from getting to Earth, stopping the aliens from getting to Earth. which is similar to the last bit of Alien Resurrection.

So there's a station above Antarctica, interestingly linking with Alien vs. Predator. And it's this kind of ticking clock thing where they invade the Antarctica Station and it's going to crash into the Earth if they don't stop it. Never got made, never got past the script stage. After Alien Resurrection,

they wanted to make a fifth alien film. Sigourney Weaver was kind of the sticking point on that, sticking point on that as she didn't want to be involved. Josh Whedon, who wrote Alien Resurrection, as we were discussed, developed a script set on Earth for Alien 5 called Alien Revolution, so Groni Weaver didn't like it, and she was moving away from the whole franchise because they were moving ahead with Alien vs. Predator at the time. Similarly, James Cameron had discussions with Ridley Scott about where they could take it, but didn't want to be involved because of Alien Predator, Alien vs. Predator coming out.

then a period of director Neil Blomkamp being involved in Alien 5. So Neil Blomkamp directed District 9, which was kind of a sci-fi allegory of South African apartheid. And he's good, from what I recall. Yeah, I mean, District 9, I think, is a superb film. I haven't seen Elysium, which didn't seem to get particularly good reception. Oh, yeah, I mean either. I'm a bit of a chappie, Paul, just I don't really see what people's massive issue.

were with that film, to be perfectly honest. And then other than that, I've not kind of paid that much attention to his films, really. I mean, like, the film you made most recently was the Grand Tourismal film, which is a film whose concept, like, confuses me slightly. It's not a film I've seen, so I can't really

speak to the quality of it. But there was a while, I think, really, where this Neil Blomkamp Alien 5, and I'll come to why, it's an odd thing that we keep talking about it, is Alien 5. where that seemed to be kind of like

the alien film that the internet wanted made because he put out concept art on social media and people kind of like latched onto it and basically I think from what I remember right at the time when it was still an idea that was kind of like kicking around the thing that everybody seemed to glom on to

which I find quite amusing given the franchise rankings that we've just gone through its main USP seemed to be the idea that it would ignore anything that had happened after aliens. Well, this, yeah, there was a time when Neil Blumcambe was a very trendy director.

So he directed, he became well known for directing some short films adapting Halo, the Halo video games, which have a very similar look to aliens and kind of deal with space marines battling aliens. And so,

there was this idea that he could do a Halo film and that people sort of glommed onto this idea of him doing an alien film and making it look like these halo films that he did and it was yeah very trendy to want Neil Blomkamp and his idea which he called alien zeno would of what's the word retconned alien free and had Ripley and Hicks from aliens doing something so there was a great deal of concept art made xenomorph queens and Ripley and Hicks looking older, there was even stuff around the engineers and the space jockeys and whatnot

that were in these concept images. But obviously that never came to fruition. The project was apparently never picked up by 20th Century Fox either, even though Neil Blomkamp was pushing for it to be involved. Nowadays, you mentioned Grand Turismo. There was an interview with him in Uprocks by Mike Ryan where Mike Ryan asked him about Alien and he said it's hard to define

how little I care about what happens with Alien I kind of shuts down the interview after that Yeah you linked me to this and I heard of read of it and it's an absolutely fascinating little snippet you're right he gets so I mean peek behind the curtain we have show notes that we refer to in recording these and Simon's just got

Blon Camp gets real pissy when you ask about this and I would encourage somebody to go find that interview because he really does it's just that brutality like I don't care what happens to it. It's like you know and it's been a very kind of like you know perfectly pleasant interview up to that point

but yeah it's yeah it's been perfectly pleasant he asks the interviewer asks about alien and he says I don't care he says I just want to talk about grand tourism or we shouldn't talk he says let's focus on grandurismo and then he's down to like monosyllobic answers before eventually the publicist

says it's time to end this. Which to be honest for you, I find extremely churlish because it's him that put out concept art on social media and everything. It's not like, kind of like, you know, word got out, he was working on something and he doesn't want to talk about it. Like, dude, you're the one who

you're the one who put all this out here. That's it. He put it out on Instagram on his own account, but at some point was not involved anymore and now does not want to talk about it. The alien versus predator sub-franchise has its own proposed films. So there were proposed films for Aliens versus Predator 3.

The brother Strauss had ideas for this. They had an idea for an aliens versus predator film that would take place in the future, in the time frame of the original alien films. And it would follow, you know, this idea of battling a xenomorph queen on a planet. There was this idea of going to the Xenomorph's home planet. and covering that ground, following the kind of development of Eutani after the end of Wecriem, where she gets the gun,

and he's like, this will take us to the stars, or whatever. Sorry, I just had this vision of her picking up and then just saying to infinity and beyond. The latest weird crossover, Alien versus Predator versus Toy Story. I don't think Buzz Lighty here would stand up well. I mean, it is hollowed by D. all owned by Disney now. But yeah, neither Buzz Lightyear,

the character from Lightyear or Buzz Lightyear the toy would fare well against a xenomorph, I don't think. So yeah, Alien vs. Predator films, they wanted to be a third, but it never happened. Shane Black, who directed The Predator, wanted to make an Alien versus Predator film, but as of yet, hasn't.

Shane Black doing one of those things would be interesting. I quite like Shane Black as a filmmaker I mean I think it would still sit completely at odds with the alien series but within this alien versus predator sort of shoot off world I'd be interested to see what he'd do with that to be I think it could be a bit more

arch and knowing and winky it could work but you know like who knows I quite like some of Shane Black so I personally think Iron Man 3 is the best Iron Man film yes I said it and Kiss Kiss, Kiss, Bang, Bang, I think is excellent,

but at the same time, the Predator was fucking dreadful, so, you know. And then there's Ridley Scott's ideas. So Ridley Scott has talked about a third part in the Prometheus Covenant trilogy that would kind of bridge the gap between Covenant and Alien. In 2017, it was reported that that film had already been written and would be ready to film in 2018, dependent on how successful Covenant was, hasn't happened. Scott has also talked to Fandango

about a film that he called Alien Awakening which he suggests would be set between Prometheus and Covenant I'm not sure what ground there is to cover there like David developing the little xenomorphs Yeah I don't really know what there is to do there Certainly if you're focusing within If you're focusing with the on upon the characters that we know from Prometheus

I don't see what there is there even accounting for the fact that that period is fairly glibly glossed over in Covenant given where Covenant goes I don't really see what there is to fill in there or I don't really see what there is to fill in

in any interesting manner there I think this is maybe just one of Ridley Scott's musings that he throws out in interviews to be honest. Speaking of Ridley Scott's musings that he throws out in interviews, he has also stated that there will be

at least three more prequel films covering whatever period he has an idea about and he's talked about replacing the xenomorphs with AI-based antagonists saying that the xenomorphs

aren't scary anymore and so he wanted to explore what a world created by AI's would look like. They're not scary, what's fault is that, Ridley? So he now talks about these ideas of an AI antagonist and the engineers, which I guess you follow David creating this colony or whatever after Covenant.

I can see how you can do that. Catherine Waterston, who was in Alien Covenant, hasn't heard anything in ages about a sequel. In 2019, 20th Century Fox were acquired by Disney, but confirmed that future alien films were still in development and whatever those films are, it's not clear because the next thing we hear about is Fidei Alvarez's upcoming film Alien Romulus. Now this was supposed to be a Hulu release,

like Prey, the latest Predator film, but I think they've turned it into a theatrical release and the idea is that this is a standalone film based on alien follows a group of young people on a distant world who find themselves

in confrontation with a xenomorph I don't know a great deal about this but it's supposed to come out next year right yeah as far as I'm aware at the time of recording

well let me be clever because this will get confusing quickly at the time of our recording this the film is being recorded and I think it was being recorded in Budapest I want to say so it's coming

it's coming soon enough that we might even end up dusting off this podcast feed to talk about it when it comes out but I mean I think what interests me about this one right out of all the ones that we've

spoken about right is the fact that it says it's standalone now this does raise questions about how exactly it does link right and what makes it an alien film beyond the title alien

and presumably a xenomorph, right? I mean, I don't think it says that explicitly, right? So, you know, who knows? But I think the fact that it does potentially have room to do its own thing is interesting here. Who knows? Who knows? It could end up terrible. I've no idea.

I mean, nobody does at this point. But I think the fact that it is standalone and it maybe is as a result slightly less beholden to you know, this vast sprawling franchise that we've spoken. about makes it interesting. Like, could it go somewhere a little bit, a little bit different? Or at least do its own thing within kind of the context of a, you know, a horror film.

And certainly Ferry Alvarez's background, I haven't actually seen any of his films, but, you know, he was a producer on the Texas Chainsaw Masker remake. He's directorial credits and could the Evil Dead reboot in 2030. You know, like, I mean, that's kind of, seems to be the world in which he's operating, right? So, yeah, I think a standalone thing might be the best thing for the franchise at this point, you know, prove that you can tell other stories that don't link into this kind of continuity that, however fractured, has been set up and have more of an episodic kind of thing would, would work for me. So it has a release date of 16th of August, 24. If it comes out on that date, I guess we'll review it on this, on this podcast maybe. But yeah, unless Disney slash 20th Century Studios pull a Batgirl on it and can it for tax reasons, presumably we'll see it at some point. You know, they filmed Back Girl in Glasgow, which is where I live.

And they especially did night scenes at the park right next to my flat. So they directed these huge lights, which were super bright and kind of shone into my window. So we could see them from here. and they put down this gross artificial snow that the council were told would just disappear without any harm to plant life and wildlife but I go running through that park fairly regularly and it took months to disappear

and it looked very damaging to the local floor and it was all for nothing because the film never even came out there we go that's a tangent the next thing is a Noah Hawley TV series So Noah Hawley is the showrunner of Fargo, the Fargo TV series, which does a different thing every season, and I think has a good first season, a me, second season, a great third season, I don't think I watched the fourth season. I didn't bet so I, so this I find interesting, right, because certainly Noah Hawley's track record seems to be a little bit mixed, shall we say. Fargo is an interesting one in that

I'm trying to do it because I keep getting my seasons of this show mixed up But the main thing I want to be is When we talk about kind of like prestige TV in the 21st century Right The first season of that Fargo series is right up there for me I really think that first season of it is absolutely It's very good It's absolutely superb

And then the second season I recall being fairly I recall being fairly decent but maybe not quite as bulldover. Season 3 I enjoyed a lot. I think that's the one that's got David Thuleus in it, and I think that was kind of... That's David Fulis and you and McGregor playing two characters.

Yeah, that's too doubt for me. And I just love David Fulis in that season. He's so good. I mean, David Thuris is excellent. He's one of those actors where, like, if he's involved, I automatically become more interested in whatever it is. And then season four,

I started watching it, and I thought it was fairly decent, but I didn't actually make it all the way through it. I think I've watched like four episodes from it and I've just kind of never bothered to watch the rest of it. You know, so make of that what you will. Legion is supposedly quite good. I've not watched it.

I haven't seen it. So I don't really know what to make of this and I don't really know you know, so the thing is it's meant to be a prequel before the events of alien, right? Yes. So I don't... Not too far

in our future. This is a summary from the production company set not too far in our future it's the first alien story set on Earth that's not really true and by branding both the timeless horror of the first alien film with the non-stop action of the second

it's going to be a scary thrill ride that will blow people back in their seats this is the point where I put up the Ron Burgundy meme and go I don't believe you I don't know it sounds it sounds odd I don't really I don't really understand how

this concept works, but you know, like whatever, I'll check it out when it pops up, but I don't know, I don't see, I don't see this working, like, you know, I'll judge it once it's actually out there to judge, but I do kind of look at it and go, eh,

really? I think it's funny that throughout this podcast, we have talked about the identity crisis of the alien franchise, which I attribute to this immediate clash between alien and aliens, and it's so funny that they are just leaning into that as the premise of their show. Like, we're going to blend

alien and aliens. Like, no, that's the whole problem with this franchise. Don't do, Noah Hawley, listen to this podcast. Yeah, it's funny. It kind of, it goes even to the production of what they're doing right now, because even the fact that there are these two things, right? One is a film, one is a TV series. One is a standalone thing. The other one's a prequel. I, you know, like, like, what are you doing? It's even, all fractured. Yeah. Like right now,

it feels as fractured as it has ever been. Despite these efforts by Ridley Scott to kind of tame it and pull it in one direction, it just feels like it's, since being acquired by Disney, it's spread out and fractured into a million little bits that may or may not even get made. But then again, I mean, that's, you know,

I mean, the era in which we are regarding this, that's the Disney playbook, right? I mean, that's what they've done with Star Wars. Spread themselves too faint. Yeah, you know, I mean, the whole thing, I mean... And Marvel. Yeah, and, you know, the Marvel stuff as well, right?

Because Star Wars, I think, it stands out more for me because it kind of comes from a similar place to the alien films, really, right? And, you know, it was a... You know, obviously, Star Wars is more of a sci-fi fantasy bent than, you know, sci-fi. But, like, you know, late 70s thing, very... successful popular films, spun out some very successful sequels, they come back to it decades later to varying levels of success, and now, acquired by Disney, and it's getting spun in all sorts of directions, and you know what the hell's happening, we've had a sequel trilogy, there's supposedly another trilogy, there was another trilogy that was canned, we've had standalone films, one of which was good, one of which was bad, we've got TV series, some of which are good, some of which are bad, and, you know, it just becomes very hard to fall, and you've got the same thing with the Marvel films, right? It started off as a, you know, franchise of franchises, and now it's kind of just spun out into

the book, where even I, and I kept up with it pretty well, I've kind of lost track of what I've watched and what I haven't, and the indications are, you know, we haven't got many data points to work with here, is that this is going to go the same way, and I think it's interesting with this one, because this one at the point Disney acquired it already had its own identity crisis and confusion about what the hell they were doing with it that doesn't look to be improving. No, so this

series is allegedly in pre-production and they were supposed to start filming it FX is running this and FX said it would start filming in 2023. I haven't heard anything

about it this year so who knows if that filming is going on or If it was being filmed in the States, I think you have to assume it probably hasn't at this point. Yes. Like if it was being produced elsewhere, then, you know, maybe it wouldn't be under the auspices of that union, so maybe then it would have gone ahead. But otherwise, I can't see it having happened,

because this doesn't strike me as a sort of thing that would get an interim agreement or something like that. So those are what we can look forward to. Potentially, Alien Romulus next year, and otherwise this Alien TV series, coming out on FX, and if Ridley Scott focuses on his prequel films, another one, or potentially three of those, I had some thoughts about what a worst-case scenario for an alien film would be, because I just had a vision of deep-faked actors from the original alien, you know? Another thing out of the Disney playbook. Exactly, a de-aged Sigourney Weaver.

you know, boarding the Nostromo for the first time and seeing how they get to the point where they get to in the first alien film, which I just imagine would be utterly terrible.

No, it would be... The funny thing, I'll be interested to see what happened on that front, right? And the strike that we've kind of highlighted as going on during our recordings in the past few episodes is what some of the stuff like centres around, right?

but I'm actually I was a bit of an apologist to draw a parallel between aliens and de-aging technology right and deep faking I was a bit I'm a bit of an apologist for the the grandmoth Tark and

deep fake and rogue one right I actually thought it was pretty well done I like it I think it works well yeah and like I and I'm okay with it as a concept because there is actually an actor performing that role and you can make the argument that's essentially digital makeup, right? I think there's, you know...

An actor who's not Peter Cushing. Yeah, exactly, right. A guy who's doing the model. Yeah, right, and he's doing, critically, and this is the critical part to me, he's doing the voice, right? So, like, it is his vocal performance as well, right? So, you can make a much better case for that being kind of like digital makeup or a blend of live action anime and, like, very photorealistic animation, however you want to put it, right? But the key thing is, there's a performance there. The thing that, the direction that things have gone in more recently, and we only say within Star Wars to do it, which I find a lot more insidious is the use of AI voices, right, to mimic young Mark Hamill as Luke Skywalker or James Earl

Jones as the voice of Darth Vader. That, to me, starts to get into what are we even watching here, territory, you know? I think there was some, there was some rumors around Obi-Wan Kenobi that James Earl Jones wasn't even involved. They just got the voice you know all entirely computer generated I don't know how much creeds there is

to those. I don't know but I mean what I will say is I'm pretty sure that some of that was done for the young Luke Skywalker in the book of Boba Fett right and that's where this technology is going right so

looking back to you know this series of films. I'll be interested to see whether any of that actually shows up, right? Because I think if it did, that really truly is the death knell of this franchise, right? That's when it is obviously completely devoid of ideas, right? Anyway, to go to, yes, that is the worst case scenario. Yeah, that would be very bad, capital B. Yeah, and I mean, for all the critique that we have done on this podcast, the whole thing is critique and criticism. I think we did Alien. We chose Alien for this because we love the Alien films fundamentally. I love Alien. I would say it's

one of, if not my favorite film, one of my favorite films. And I think the best thing, it's hard to say what will happen to the franchise, given that it is now owned by Disney, who, you know, we have focused on Marvel and Star Wars a little bit in discussing this because it's owned by Disney, and because it's now a Disney property, we can see the same things that could be happening to this franchise. I think the worst thing that could happen is as much content as they're now churning out for Marvel and Star Wars, which for me entirely dilute those two things. You know, as much as I love Alien and this universe, I just don't want to see all that low-quality pap applied to to alien.

Yeah, and I think if you look at the other like big Disney juggernauts right that we've spoken about there, the thing is the quality of any individual project notwithstanding they lend themselves to that I, this kind of approach right? Because like obviously the Marvel

Cinematic Universe is based upon the Marvel comic books and there are dozens of characters and that and scores of different storylines and things like the point is there's the source material there is so vast, right, that it lends itself to kind of like spinning up different things that are connected to it, right? Now, albeit, they've maybe done too many of them, and it started

to look a bit cheap and rushed, and it's not particularly well thought out, you know, whatever, I'm not going to relitigate kind of our opinions on the Marvel Cinematic Universe here. And then on the Star Wars side of things, and Star Wars is the more interesting comparison here because they've got this sci-fi space bent to it, right? To an extent it also lends itself to that because it implies, it is implied in the way that those films were constructed in the world building that there's a vast kind of galaxy out there and characters to link in with and their own little stories that you can jump on to, right? So you can kind of create that off and then before Disney acquired that there was that vast, kind of expanded universe of like tie in comic books and novels and stuff, right? So you've already seen that happen in a different medium even. here, and the way it differs

with Star Wars, I think if they were to take this approach with Alien films it would be absolutely ruinous and a terrible idea is because the entire thing with Alien, and we discussed this as kind of like a point that kind of worked against a little bit, Covenant

and Prometheus, that fundamentally the original text of this franchise, Alien, is predicated on the idea that, yes, the universe is vast, it's uncaring, and there are horrors out there that we cannot ever know, and we might just bump into

randomly, right? It's basically it's predicated the idea that it's so vast, we cannot know it, right? And whilst that opens up limitless possibilities, it does also kind of actually restrict it, right? Because it's not as easily expanded whilst

keeping it familiar, right? And that's why I'm, of the two things that we've spoken about that are supposedly in production, the alien Romulus film, which is meant to be a stand-alone thing, I find that the more interesting because I think that's got more scope to do something which

is its own idea and how it links into the alien films whatever we'll see right but it sounds like the more potentially interesting project the TV series based on the way it's been described it sounds like a Disney you know and I've realised maybe I'm doing a bit confirmation bias here but it sounds like a Disney thing

the whole kind of like you know blend both the timeless horror of the first alien film with the non-stop action of the second it's going to be a scary thrill, right, that will blow people back in their seats. It's just like, oh, Christ, just shut up. You know, like, is that really what we want? You know, it's just, so I find it interesting, and I think what direction it probably goes in, probably depends on which of these ends up being more successful, frankly.

But, you know, we'll see. That's a good point. It's almost like a crossroads with these two directions. They're leading in different areas for the franchise, which is interesting given everything we've discussed around the different routes through this franchise. So I think that brings us to the end of the xenopod and the end of our discussions of the alien franchise. We've watched them all, we've critiqued them all, we've contextualized them all, and against Jim's better judgment, we've also ranked them all.

For the future, if Alien Romulus comes out in 2024, we might review that and throw that in this feature. otherwise we've had some discussions about other film series that we might want to cover in this same kind of way and if we do that kind of project we'll put something out on the feed to advertise it or we'll put it on Twitter at the xenopod or blue sky at the xenopod.b sky. social but apart from that I think we're at the end of our alien journey. I think the only thing the last thing to add I think is just I found it an interesting thing to look at because I've come to a kind of conclusion

about this series and what it kind of reflects and means and I've got a kind of an optimistic interpretation of it and I've got a very cynical interpretation of it right and the optimistic interpretation is if you have a kind of a good central idea or a good

central sort of like you know design for a creature in this case maybe it is then if you bring kind of creatives to it who are talented and in good faith you can end up with a whole bunch of really good stuff right you know you get alien you get aliens you get alien covenant you get prometheus uh alien three to a certain extent right and you know maybe less so the other ones we've spoken about that's kind of the optimistic thing if you have a good idea and you bring talented creative people to that good idea and they approach it in good faith and they're given

space to work on it you can come up with some really great stuff right the cynical interpretation of it is if you come up with a good idea and it does well Hollywood will throw any old shit at that idea to make it stick right

you'll come up with alien and then before you know it 40 odd years down the line you're making alien resurrection and alien versus preter requiem and all the rest of it so it's kind of two sides of the same coin there, right? If you have a good idea and you get backing and you get good creative

people on board, you can come up with like some really interesting things that have so many different layers to them and depth and you can take on any level you want, right? You can watch alien and just be terrified by this alien creature and leave it at that, or you can do what we've done and kind of look at it like what represents and how, you know, the particular design and who interacts with what it says about certain things and then how that spins out to other films and all the rest. You can do that or you can take it surface on. Those are both perfectly okay things to do because it's an effective piece of work. That's the optimistic one. And the cynical one is, if you have a good idea, Hollywood will try and milk it to death.

In some cases, actually to death. So that would be my ending, my ending thought here. And I think this has been such a good example of it because of how long it spans and the different types and the levels of quality, like going from genuinely one of the worst kind of like big-ish budget films I've seen in Requiem through to kind of like, you know, one of the best films I've seen really in Alien. And I think it's an interesting way to look at it. But that's kind of my takeaway from it. It's like there's an optimistic one and there's also a cynical one and basically the modern filmmaking world seems to be trying to balance those two things, right? Yeah, an opposition between these opposing conflicts.

of, I mean, this is the essence of Hollywood, right? This balance between creativity and commerce and alien franchise has proved to be a great look at how those two forces interact, fail to interact, fail to interlock, and how these competing forces produce different things. So I'm very glad we looked at it, and I hope you've enjoyed listening to our assessment of this franchise and where it's gone. I have been Simon Bowie. I'm an amateur film critic who can be found for now on Twitter at SimonXIX.

I also write this year I've been doing reviews per minute or I write film reviews with a word count that matches how many minutes long the film is and that's at reviewsper minute.simonx.com. This podcast has been hosted by Take One at Take One Cinema.net, which is a film review site focusing on Art House and Festival Films, but which has a broad enough remit to cover a whole selection of films with loads of good reviewers

on that site. Jim Ross is on Twitter at Jim GR. And pretty much that one also. As the implosion of Twitter is ongoing, or X as it's now known, I have profiles of various places, but generally

it's always Jim GR. The only exception is Instagram slash threads, where it's JimGR underscore. film because that predates my part-time film reviewing days but yeah you can find me on that or any of the take one social accounts

which are generally at take one cinema on pretty much every platform you can think of so thank you for listening do come find us track us down see what we're doing but for now this is the last broadcast of the Xenapod signing off

game over man it's game over You know, I'm going to