Taking 20 Podcast - Ep 252 - Get Out of Your GM Comfort Zone

Episode Date: April 27, 2025

There’s nothing wrong with the comfortable same old same old.  However, what if you want to become a better DM.  How do you start and what can that progression look like?  Give this episode a listen to find out. #pf2e #Pathfinder #gmtips #dmtips #dnd #rpg Resources: Episode 27 - Role vs Roll Playing Episode 184 - Preparing One Shots Episode 237 - Short vs Long Campaigns

This week on The Taking 20 Podcast. If you do what you've always done, you're going to get what you've always got. If you enjoy what you are and what you do, then go with the gods and keep doing it. But if we only stay where we're comfortable, we miss out on potential growth. Thank you for listening to The Taking 20 Podcast, episode 252, giving GMs some encouragement to get out of their comfort zone. I want to thank this week's sponsor, Arms. Did you know that when biological tech companies do their calculations on some of their machines, they assume the arm is a circle?

Well, I mean, after all, arms do have a radius. Welcome back to the podcast, and if you're new, I am so glad you found it. If you enjoy this podcast, please consider giving it a like and a subscribe wherever you happen to find it. Every interaction with listeners like that helps the podcast gain visibility. If you would be so kind, please take a moment and hit that thumbs up button for me. Chances are this isn't the first time you've heard the phrase get out of your comfort zone, but what the heck does that even mean? Especially in the context of tabletop RPGs. If you've never heard the phrase before, comfort zone is an area or situation where everything is familiar. You've been

there and done that. You don't feel a lot of stress doing what you're doing or being where you are. We all find comfort zones in our lives and I'm not here to talk about the comfort zones in your relationships or professional life or anything away from the gaming table. This ain't that kind of podcast, my friend. However, DMs, over time we find our comfort zones behind the screen. There are game systems that we know and love. There are game types that we can run,

like a dungeon crawl or a wilderness exploration, a smash and grab heist, or whatever we like to run. We run games with a particular flavor or theme well, funny campaigns, gothic horror adventures, lucky adventurers against the tide of the world. If you've GMed for a while, chances are you've found your comfort zone game type and flavor, theme and structure. You have a group or two that are your regulars and you game with them every other week.

You're DMing in your comfort zone. It's warm and it's snugly like a good heavy blanket on a cold morning. And let me give the comfort zone its due. There are absolutely benefits to finding what you enjoy running and what you're good at and staying there. Personally, I feel like I can run dungeon crawls or funny NPCs or horror adventures pretty well. They are right in my wheelhouse and I have some tried and true techniques that I use to run these types of games. One of my favorite

phrases I heard years ago that stuck with me is, if you do what you've always done, you're going to get what you've always got. If you enjoy what you are and what you do, if it's a pleasure to run games for the same people year in and year out with the same types of games, then go with the gods and keep doing it. I'm not going to think less of you for gaming in a way that you enjoy, and even if I did judge you for it, who gives a shit? I mean, who am I? I am nobody at the other end of a podcast, Mike. To paraphrase a quote from the movie Army of Darkness,

my opinion of you should mean two things to you, Jack and shit and Jack left town. So if you like the GM or player that you are, then absolutely stay in that comfort zone. It's low stress, predictable, and has fewer variables that you have to deal with behind the screen or in front of it. But if we only stay where we're comfortable,

we miss out on potential growth. If you do want to grow and improve as a DM and a player, then I would posit that getting out of that comfort zone can facilitate your own improvement. Years ago now, it has been years since I first mentioned it in episode 27, a concept called Fuck Your Fear. I learned this concept from an old improv coach of mine who probably learned it from Mick Napier's book called Improvise. The concept's a simple one. The biggest obstacle for anyone who has to perform,

improvisers, actors, people in the theater, and yes, DMs, is fear. Becoming more, doing more, getting better is hampered by our own fear, our fear of failure, our fear of ridicule, a fear that we won't live up to our own standards. And the best way to get over that is to confront it. That's what McNapier meant by fuck your fear. People like bold choices, big choices, the outlandish choices,

even if you fail, then you fail big and your players will love you for it. Oh, hello. I'm original smack bottom the fourth, and I need a group of adventurers much like yourselves to deal with this nasty drake infestation. Is that voice a good one? No. Do I care? Also no. I fucked my fear of bad accents a long time ago. Growing as a DM requires being willing to confront your fear, step out and conquer it and use it to make yourself even better. The biggest way getting out of your comfort zone helps you improve is personal growth.

Trying something new, whether it's a more or less strategic game, or incorporating deeply emotional role-playing scenes, or even stepping up to GM for the first time ever, forces you to adapt and learn. You might discover hidden talents, new ways of thinking, or develop resilience when things don't go perfectly. You learn to handle the uncertainty, which is a massive life skill. And facing those fears, taking that risk and getting out of your comfort zone can lead to your being more confident. Even if you only partially pull it off, make a few mistakes, and even step out and fail gloriously, you've pushed your boundaries and it'll be easier to do that the next time.

You've proven you can get out of a comfort zone and survive to tell the tale. The next time will probably be easier and less fearful. All of what I've talked about, the personal growth, the gain in confidence, the new skills you learn, directly makes your game better. Whether you're a player bringing fresh ideas and more dynamic role playing to the table, or a GM designing more varied and engaging adventures,

pushing your boundaries elevates the experience for everyone else involved in the game around you. You learn how to handle new and different situations more effectively both in-game, like unexpected plot twists or player actions, and maybe even out of game by getting better managing group dynamics. For game masters especially, stepping out of your comfort zone is a key to better adventure design and execution. Trying a new genre, a different tone, or unfamiliar mechanics keeps you engaged, prevents your campaigns from feeling stale and trite and overdone.

This directly combats the feeling of sameness and even can help with burnout. If you find yourself running the same dungeon crawl or political intrigue plot over and over, maybe it's time to try that horror one-shot or that sci-fi exploration game or that rules-like narrative system that you've been eyeing. Variety keeps the creative spark alive and reduces that feeling of sameness and hopefully will delay or cure any feelings of burnout that you may be experiencing. Don't get me wrong. There's nothing wrong with DMing in your comfort zone. Chances are you're pretty good at running games inside of that comfort zone. It's the types of adventures, the types of characters, the types of NPCs that you've

run a hundred times. Again, you could probably run those types of games in your sleep. It is frightening to step out of your comfort zone, but you do grow because of it. I can hear, okay, Jeremy, shut up. You convinced me. I want to grow from behind the screen. How do I do it? How do I get out of my comfort zone? First off, you probably already know what your comfort zone is. What does the game you run usually look like? Let's try something new, even if it's a small step into the unknown. Suppose you wanted to run a new game system.

Maybe you're running 5e or the 2025 version of D&D that's out now. Maybe try a night of Cyberpunk Red or Pathfinder 2e or vice versa. Maybe you usually run Pathfinder. Let's try running a 5e game. If you usually run a fairly crunchy and rules heavy system, throw in a one shot on a rules light system like I don't know, lasers and feelings or morque borg or honey heist or a game one of my players wanted to try one night when our GM wasn't available called roll for shoes. I'll put a link into the website by the way to the description of the episode. It's a d6 based game

and it has I think six total rules that lead to some really crazy crazy situations and skills Running and playing games in different systems and have given me tools and tricks that I can incorporate into my games through the years I've grown as a DM by being exposed to new and different rule sets But Jeremy I can hear you say learning a new game is a lot of work I agree and we both know that the GM behind the screen has to new game is a lot of work. I agree. And we both know that the GM behind the screen has to put in the most amount of work to learn the rules. Okay, so maybe a new game system,

a new rule set is a bit too far. How about incorporating some game subsystems or optional rules from your preferred system? I played a 5e game late last year and had an optional rule where if the situation allowed for it, you could try skill checks tied to different ability scores. Tying strength to intimidation for example, or charisma to investigation if you're trying to find out information via local interviews rather than looking for clues. Similarly, Pathfinder 2e has some alternate fun rules like free archetypes and automatic

bonus progression. Using some alternate rules, even those designed by the creator of the game, can add some variety to the game, keep the system fresh, and help you grow by trying new things. Speaking of which, if you want to grow, maybe try something new with your NPCs. Are most of your NPCs just generic cardboard cutouts that aren't really different from one another? They all use the same voice, the same manner of speaking, and the Vizier sounds exactly the same as the Stablehand. Pick one NPC, just one, and put a little more into their character. Make them, yes,

more intelligent, erudite, or refined even. Or go the other way and make them talk more dumber, yeah? Last time I saw little Ingrid she was chasing a skunk around with a burlap sack she was trying to catch it. Can you help me find her? Or if you usually run pre-written adventures and campaigns, try a little homebrew. Just a bit that you can add to the adventure. Come up with a location, a quest, an activity for the module that just isn't there. Suppose you're running Dragon of Icespire Peak and don't worry I'm not going to spoil anything about that adventure. Maybe add some tavern games to the Stonehill Inn in Fandelver. It's not in

the book but maybe homebrew drinking games like bouncing copper pieces into a shot class that you'd have to drink or a game of darts in the corner, arm wrestling, whatever, or add an NPC that isn't in the book that you think would be interesting. Or maybe in Fandelver a new store has opened that sells magic items, interesting equipment, an apothecary that supplies healing potions, or Dwarven Tinkerer who's doing some interesting experiments with sulfur and saltpeter. Conversely if you have a homebrew world that you're running your game in, lift material out of published adventures and drop it into your game. That's not plagiarism, that's using tools that are available for you

to use. Almost all GMs do that every now and then. There's an interesting quest or location in the adventure but you don't want to have the PC fight fucking rats again to start the adventure. Use the location, change the monsters. Back in episode 242, I mentioned that if you want to make something distinct, change just one thing. One connection to one backstory. One unexpected twist. One different and unique NPC is all it takes to make things memorable. Similarly, if you want to grow, sometimes you just have to change one thing. If your games are usually serious, add a bit of humor. One of the PCs discovers that

there's a strange figure walking through town at night and it's scaring everybody, but when the PCs investigate it turns out to be three goblins in a trench coat. Or maybe have a quest that winds up having a humorous end. The PCs are asked to deliver a sealed package. Halfway through the delivery the box starts meowing. They open the box to free the cat and it runs off into the city. Or maybe the blacksmith will give the PCs a discount if they help his son. The son is in love and wants the PCs to deliver a love letter to the girl he adores and it turns out to be not a local girl but a famous visiting bard named

Swaler Tift, Garriana Ronde or Bruno Bars. Bruno Bars sounds like a chain of taverns up and down the Sword Coast. Try our new drink the Upt Funk, because whether you're drinking to remember or drinking to forget, Uptown Funk's gonna give it to you. Another way you can grow as a DM is to use tools and techniques that you don't normally use. Try random tables to fill in information for dungeon rooms or random NPCs that show up at your game. If you don't usually let players describe what they see in a scene, try it. Ask one of your players what the bartender looks like or the material and color of the magic spear she just found. A lot of this to say is that you should take a fresh look at the way you DM, find some

gaps in your skills that you may have. You're great at quest design, but not at room descriptions. You have engaging NPCs, but your map making leaves a lot to be desired. Whatever it is, the most common way people get better at something is by doing it. Not to bring in my teaching background into this, but the technical term for this is called kinesthetic learning. Learning by doing. And most of us are kinesthetic learners.

Okay, I've saved my most difficult and probably most controversial recommendations for the end of the episode, but if you really, really want to get better as a DM, this last section will be the hardest to do, but will pay off the most. Starting gently. If you want to be a better DM, you have to DM. See previous discussion about kinesthetic learning. The best way to hone your skills is to do it. Duh, Jeremy, I

thought you were smart. I'm not, I've just made a shit-ton of mistakes while playing RPGs and have a podcast about it. Now then, if you want to improve, really want to improve as a DM, you're gonna have to do it and maybe add some variety in who you DM for. You've run games for the same group of friends for two years. You know their tendencies, their foibles, what they like to do and what they don't. You've become a good DM for them. Don't get me wrong, a lot of people live happy GM lives running games for friends and family and never change. If that's all you want to do, do that and have a great time. However, if you really want to grow

as a DM, get better, maybe turn this hobby into something more like even a paying gig, you're going to have to GM for other groups and maybe even in different environments. What do I mean? Different people should be obvious. By the very nature of the hobby,

players outnumber DMs at least four to one. In my experience, that ratio is way higher than that. Chances are there are people outside your normal gaming group who would want you to run games for them. If you run games and your players talk about your game, word will get out, and you never know who's going to come out of the woodwork wanting to join one of your games or wanting you to run games for them. Heck, one of my long-time groups are friends of another group member that has long since moved away. He introduced me to them and I started running a Pathfinder game for them. I picked up from the existing GM

and took over that campaign and that was in... God, 2016. Yeah, that was Rain of Winter. Good lord, I don't feel old until I think of stuff like that. And I guess my lumbago is starting to act up. The point is that I knew none of these people and stepping into GM for them took a little bit of courage. I met them, talked to them about the type of game they wanted to be a part of and that I like to run and voila, a new gaming group forms. Running their game has made me a much better GM than I was before. If you

want to take the next brave step to running games for people, why don't you volunteer to run a game at your local game store? Most all of us have a brick and mortar game store within driving distance of us and if so, chances are they'll have like a come and play game night. I'll guarantee you if they do have those nights they would welcome your running a game for them. In this case you're not running a game for friends or even friends of friends. Your players will be whomever whomever whomever... shit which one is it? Whoever? It's awful that I had to go look that up. You'll be running games for who whomever whoever shit English sucks

Whoever shows up that night. You're going to be running games for them They could be brand new to the game or grizzled veterans They could be 13 or 83 and will run the gamut of political and social religious beliefs Not that any of that should mean anything at the gaming table point being is that it will be a diverse group that you can't screen or hand select easily. It's a bit nerve-wracking even for someone like me who's been DMing in some fashion for almost 40 years. But the times I've done it have helped me as a GM, taught me lessons about running games at the table and made me better. About 20 years ago, I showed up at a gaming shop and volunteered to run a game for... ...for the people who showed up to play. I set up my screen, rolled out the first battle mat, yes, I was using big sheets of graph

paper at the time, pulled out some pre-generated characters, started welcoming some players. I had three players show up pretty quickly, We talked about the PCs they wanted to run. One brought a PC he'd made at home. I did a quick review, asked him to remove a couple of overleveled items, and we were ready to go. And then at the last minute, two more people showed up. No problem. Five player game. I'll scale up the encounters slightly. I'm already doing the math in my head. I got up to shake their hands and then realized that one of them was blind. First things first, anyone's welcome at my table. I had and have no concerns about having them as a player.

I introduced myself and went through the usual introduction asking what characters they wanted. He pulled out his own character sheet and dice, all in braille. I asked him about his character, it was an elf archer if I remember right, and we settled in for a game of dice rolling. I cannot thank Marcus enough for showing up that night. His being there made me completely

rethink the way I DM. I primarily DM'd using visual cues and prompts, hand motions, etc. I used battle maps that players could see and a lot of my roles were in the open that the players could see. I even had a couple of props that were completely useless to players who were sight impaired. So what did I do? Number one, I gave my battle maps an identification grid with numbers across the top and letters down the side. I could describe the goblin as moving from A3 to F4 to get into melee with the Paladin. Marcus, to my amazement by the way, could keep track of the entire battle map in his head just by coordinates he and I had made up on the spot. Number two. I became a lot more descriptive that game.

I have a habit of bringing pictures of important NPCs to my game. I talk about Lord Whomever, hold up a picture, done with it. But now, rather than just holding up the picture of Craig the Guard Captain, I worked hard to make sure to describe him in a way that Marcus could visualize. 3. I pulled out crazy voices for the NPCs who talked a lot, and Marcus was amazing in that he remembered which voices were which NPCs, and he forgave me for the absolutely awful accents I used. Those four hours of gaming are still some of my favorite in my life. I learned how to dm for a

much wider range of people, making my game more accessible, and I lost a lot of the fear I had about doing voices around the table, for example. Without Marcus showing up that night, I would be much less of a d DM than I am today. I found out later that he was just in town visiting his cousin who was the other player and I really wish I could DM for Marcus out there. And if you happen to be listening brother, I love you, miss you, hope you're doing well. Games for players you don't know and that need to be completed in one night need to be kept very simple. If you need some tips for games like that, by the way see episode 184 preparing one shots. I'll have a link in the description of the episode. If you're watching on YouTube there's probably a card up in the corner that link to it. Similarly I contrasted long versus short

adventures in episode 237. Same thing. Link in the description. Card in the corner. Anyway gaming for random people at a game store can be scary, but you know, you grow. You learn. It makes you better. If you're looking for opportunities to do that in your local game store, doesn't dedicate or advertise a night like that, take a look online. D&D has something called the Adventurers League, and Pathfinder has something called Pathfinder Society Games.

These are organized events that are advertised in advance and draw in a wide variety of gamers to one or more of your local game stores. You'll likely have a wide variety of experience levels and everything else with the people who show up to play in that game. Moreover, if you start feeling comfortable GMing for random people,

then you might consider running a game at a convention. Conventions, even local ones, are massive affairs, drawing in hundreds or thousands or even tens of thousands of people over the course of a night or a weekend. Most conventions call out for individuals who are willing to run games over the convention weekend. Board games, party games and yes, tabletop RPGs can be found at nearly every gaming or pop culture convention that I've been to.

And let's be honest, I'm 50 plus years old and I'm a nerd who's been playing tabletop RPGs for over 40 years. I've been to a few conventions. Over the past few years, when my health allows for it, I've been running games at conventions within driving distance of me. I've run Pathfinder 1e and 2e games and even a few sessions of D&D. Why? Because I've met some amazing people at these conventions and I have made it my mission in life to draw as many people as I can into this hobby that I love. Hence this podcast. Conventions are a wild card when it comes to games though. Running games at conventions have

their unique challenges. Chances are you're not going to be in a private room. There will be other games going on in the room and the noise from other tables can bleed into your game. It's hectic, frantic, chaotic, and usually you are held to a very tight time window of three or four hours. People who sit down at your table are willing to give you that amount of time before they want to get in line to see a celebrity or check out the table next door selling axes and swords which is next to the candle maker on the other side. I confess I bought two candles at my last convention, one for my wife and then one for me that was just called lawful good that smells like clean sheets right out of the dryer. They're

not paying me to plug them by the way, I just really fucking love this candle. Convention games are a challenge and if you're up to that then have you thought about running games online for random people? There are sites out there like startplaying.games warhorn.net and scores of discord servers out there that can help gamers meet up. I'm sure whatever social media site you like also has groups where you can find like-minded people looking for a game. Hell, my Saturday night group found each other on Facebook, I think, about seven years ago. We've had a few people change in and out, but we're still going strong after all this time. You can find games online. If you're a player and just want

to play games, it's going to be a little tougher to find a game because, like I said, players outnumber DMs by a big ratio. However, if you're willing to get behind the virtual screen and run games for others, you will not lack for players, I promise. This discussion of leading online games could stretch for another 10 minutes about the challenges of getting an online gaming group together, but the way it makes you grow as a DM is where I want to focus. It helps you learn the online tools that facilitate online-only gaming groups like virtual tabletops, audio and text chat services, and so forth. Hell, I ran a game on Zoom one time. The last and most challenging hurdle to clear as a DM to grow, and I've only stuck my toe

barely past this line a couple of times times is to become a paid DM. Yes, there are people who are willing to pay hard-earned coin for someone to run their game for them. I want to pause for just a second. Someone, maybe some multiple someones out there, just says something that equivalent, I'd never pay someone to DM for me. Others are even philosophically opposed to the very idea of paid DMs. You have your right to that belief and I'm not gonna yuck your yum. Also, if you have a plethora of DMs around you such that you would never have to pay for a game,

consider yourself very lucky. Being a paid DM has a very high standard. Generally the game will be online, but in-person paid DMs exist as well. Being a paid GM has some advantages. 1. Generally, your players will be more committed to the game. After all, they're paying $10, $20, or more dollars for a session. 2. In the few paid DM sessions I've done, the people have been happy to have someone to

DM for them because previously they had no one. That being said, becoming a paid DM has a very high set of expectations. The days of just setting up a Discord server, advertising a paid game, and offering bare bones and unplanned experiences for the players is largely over. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure you could roll out

a minimalist game and even get players at a bargain price point, but I couldn't allow myself to do that. Paid DMing is a lot of work. Imagine you're prepped for people you know players at a bargain price point, but I couldn't allow myself to do that. Paid DMing is a lot of work. Imagine you're prepped for people you know who have been in your game for two years. They forgive you when you flub an NPC's name or have to look up a rule. If people are paying for your time, they expect you to be prepared, on top of the adventure, on top of the rules, and provide them an engaging experience with bells and whistles like music and sound effects

maps world-building notes tokens handouts and everything else you need to run a game if you're being paid to run a campaign it gets even more complex because now you need to think about all the things a normal campaign needs like session zero character backstory integration lines and veils, and for those of you who don't know what I'm talking about with lines and veils, they determine what happens in the world but not at the table and things that aren't even referred to in the world. Things like sex, bigotry, slavery, things that play on personal fears, that type of thing. Plus there's the business aspect of all this,

collecting fees and figuring out processes for when someone flakes out, doesn't pay and doesn't show, or if they pay and don't show. There's taxes and player surveys, feedback, cost-benefit analysis for the cost of your time, and lots of little logistics of things around the game. Is there a demand out there for paid dungeon masters? Absolutely. For example, last year I ran a paid session to introduce a group to the game. These were brand new players and they offered me $80 for 4 players for

a 4 hour introductory session. Not exactly life altering money, but it beats a sharp stick in the eye. As part of that, I also offered to train the most experienced player how to run a game, giving them DM lessons in exchange for a little bit more money. His game is still going, which honestly makes me pretty damn happy. He still emails every now and then for tips and tricks and we actually had lunch together late last year. When you factor in everything I was paid, the time it took to prep the adventure, coordinate the meeting times, set up the virtual tabletop, get the right tokens, purchase and prepare music and sound effects. Yeah, I made a single dollar per hour of work, but it helped spread word about the hobby,

which honestly was important to me anyway. Don't get me wrong, if I somehow became independently wealthy tomorrow, I'd be scheduling paid games starting the following weekend. I enjoyed it, but since I have a 40 hour per week job, a second teaching job on top of that, family, a body that seems to be failing subsystem by subsystem, regular paid DMing just isn't in my cards right now. In 15 years when I retire? Maybe. I'll be grandpa GM or something like that and run games.

Where are you whippersnappers? By God, when I was your age our base attack bonus was called Faco and we liked it. Well that's enough of that and I apologize. My beloved GMs out there, stepping out of your comfort zone can enhance your skills and enjoyment of tabletop RPGs. While there are benefits to staying within comfort zones, if you do what you've always done you're going to get what you've always got. Be willing to expand your horizons with new techniques, try new types of games and game systems, and maybe try leading games with different groups. You'll become a better DM because of it and I'd be willing to bet that you and your players would have fun doing it. Do you have any topic ideas for me? If so, please send them to me directly

on social media or via email feedback at taking20podcast.com. In two weeks I'm going to give GMs some tips for those recurring villains in their game. But before I go I want to thank this week's sponsor, ARMS. I had another arm pun here, but I got rid of it. It just wasn't humorous. This has been episode 252, giving DMs some reasons and methods to get out of their comfort zone. My name is Jeremy Shelley, and I hope that your next game is your best game. The Taking 20 podcast is copyright 2025 by Jeremy Shelley.

The opinions or views expressed by guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect those of the host. References to game system content are copyrighted by their respective publishers.