Taking 20 Podcast - Ep 280 - Hard Debilitating Conditions

Episode Date: July 19, 2026

Let’s dive into the "hard debuffs" that threaten to end your players' fun—and their characters—in a single roll. From paralysis and petrification to mind-controlling charm spells, we discuss the fine balance between challenge and player agency. Join us for actionable DM tips on how to foreshadow these lethal threats and replace "save-or-suck" mechanics with progressive failures that keep the table engaged, not frustrated.    #rpg #ttrpg #dnd #pathfinder #gmtips #playertips #debuffs #criticalfail   Resources: Archives of Nethys Patreon:  https://www.patreon.com/nethys  Archives of Nethys:  https://archivesofnethys.com/  Buy Me a Coffee! - ko-fi.com/taking20podcast www.taking20podcast.com  Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/taking20podcast  Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/taking20podcast 

This week on the Taking 20 podcast. When a PC is charmed, it's the ultimate loss of player agency. In 5E, charmed creatures can't attack the charmer or target them with abilities or effects that would harm them. So already, the player may not be allowed to make the choice they want to, you know, murder the hell out of the thing that's trying to control their mind. Thank you for listening to The Taking 20 podcast, episode 280, talking to DMs out there about how to handle debilitating conditions, specifically the hard debuffs on PCs.

I want to thank this week's sponsor, Concrete. Someone stole a cement mixer, but they haven't solved the case yet. I guess the police can't find anything concrete to go on. If you enjoy the podcast, please mention it to either gaming friends or share the episodes on social media. I've said it before, but I don't have any advertising budget, and I actually lose money on this podcast. But I mostly do it because I love interacting with listeners like you.

And speaking of which, I'd love to hear from you. Please send me a message on social media or my coffee, K-O-F-F-I-com slash Taking20 Podcast. My social media links and my coffee links are in the description or email me. Feedback at Taking20 Podcast.com. So if you like the podcast, please like it, subscribe to it. Thank you so much in advance. First and foremost, I'll say I had to split this episode in two.

I plan to cover all kinds of debuffs in this episode, but after I had written it, I realized it'd be like a 45-minute episode. So, this time, it's hard debuffs, and next time it's going to be softer debuffs, like curses, diseases, and lycanthropy. But there's been some news this week, and I have to start with the unpopular decision by Paiso to break ties with a popular website, Archives of Netthus. For those of you who don't play Pathfinder or Starfinder, Archives of Netthus has been a go-to website to introduce new players to the game system rules.

It was a convenient reference for us grizzled veterans to look up rules and information as Paiso released it. It was free, and it was a magnificent resource. On July 24th, Paiso ended its partnership with Archives of Nethysk because Pizzo said that the website's revenue model didn't generate enough profit for Paiso. I will grant you that right now, Paiso is under significant financial pressure due to the Diamond Comics distribution litigation going on right now. I talked about all about that in a previous episode, and I'm not going to rehash it here. But let's talk about what that partnership break with Archives of Nethys really means. Archives of Nethys, good news, will still have the rules and mechanics, because those are available under Paiso's community use policy.

However, previously when Paiso released a book, like Guns and Gears remastered, for example, the rules and even some of the images from the book would be available in Archives of Nethys the same day it released or darn close to it. This was accomplished because Paiso would release the game rules and some images to the Archives of Nethys staff, well, really volunteers, ahead of time to be released the same day. All of that's probably going to stop now.

It means that at least the rules will still be available on the site, but there'll be probably a delay before they appear on the site. Archives of Nethys is kept running mostly by volunteers. They're not some giant corporations. it's a few people like us who love tabletop RPGs and want to make the rules and information legally open and available for use. I believe they're going to be spending the next few days or weeks removing the previously given artwork that aren't strictly in line with the Paiso's community use policy.

Normally, by the way, at some point in the early part of these episodes, I'll ask you to donate to my coffee, and yes, I would absolutely love the donation to offset the cost, but I'm going to go a different direction today. If you were considering donating to my podcast and enjoy Pathfinder or Starfinder, please consider donating to Rose Wins Patreon. They're at patreon.com slash nethes, N-E-T-H-Y-S, and I'll include a link in the description of the episode. I'll make no secret that I love Paiso's games ever since Pathfinder 1E or D&D 3.75, a lot of us called it back then. I'm friends with more than a few people who currently or previously worked for Paiso.

Now, to be fair, on the other side, according to Paizo's press release, this break is due to the level of effort it took to maintain the license with Archives of Nethys and the confusion that images on the site sometimes would cause. A lot of people would borrow those images even though they didn't have a license to actually use them, whereas Archives of Nethis did. And evidently, people thought that the images were free to use, and believe me, I get it. I would imagine Paiso's pinching pennies at this point, and lawyer hours aren't cheap, but this looks more like something Wizards of the Coast would do instead of a company with a history of good interaction with customers like Paiso does. Well, I still play Pathfinder 2E, Starfinder 2E, other Paiso games. Yeah, absolutely. I don't see that changing in the near future, but I really hope they reconsider and reinstate the license to probably one of Paiso's strongest partners

and a great tool to introduce new players to the game. By the way, Archives of Nethys isn't going anywhere. The rules will still be available. They just may not be available on release day. It might be a few days or weeks before the rules appear there. Thank you for listening, by the way, and on to the episode. The most popular gaming systems, like D&D and Pathfinder and Call of Cthulhu and Cyberpunk Red, Blades in the Dark, etc.

I have debilitating conditions in some way, shape, form, or fashion. debilitating conditions traditionally have fallen under the the saver suck rules where you have one saving throw, one chance, one roll of the dice that decides whether nothing happens or something catastrophically bad happens to your character. I talked about save or suck all the way back in episode 30, but since that was six years ago, has it really been six? Anyway, back in episode at 30, I advise DMs to use them rarely. don't focus their effects on one PC, be transparent about the mechanics, and allow the PCs to use the same abilities on their enemies if that's an option for their character.

For its flaws, the newest 2024 edition of D&D did try to address the save or suck effects to varying degrees of success. For example, sleep now requires failing two saving throws instead of one like the old one. A lot of the spells now have the concentration trait making them harder to maintain, and Wizards of the Coast adjusted the saving DCs on a lot of the others. Pathfinder 2E, by the way, did something similar when it was released and it was remastered allowing for like four possible results for a lot of saving throws out there. Critically succeed, succeed, fail, and critically fail.

But even with the spells adjusted, there are still monsters and attacks that can apply conditions that are crippling to a PC. To be nice and generic, I'm going to call these debilitating conditions, like being paralyzed or petrified or something similar, but more examples in a minute. So let's talk about those. What do I mean by debilitating conditions? When I say those words, debilitary condition can mean a status effect

when you apply it to a character reduces their capabilities, strips them of actions or choices, and generally can make the game less fun for the player. That's kind of why they suck. A player character gets knocked at unconscious, they really can't do anything. You run the risk of losing the player's interest. They start watching videos on their phone, texting with their friends,

stop paying attention to what's going on at the table. Same with the conditions that take away one or more actions or prevent them from doing some cool stuff that the character that they built can do. If GMs don't handle these conditions right, it can cause hurt feelings, frustrated players, or worse, boredom. So let's get very specific about some of the debilitating conditions. Now, I'll admit, I'm focusing my talk on D&D and Pathfinder 2E, but a lot of this advice could apply to other games like Daggerheart,

Call of Cthulhu, et cetera. So, let's start with suggestion spells for being charmed. By the way, the condition charmed, not the TV show, but the witches that had Alyssa Milano in it. Although I do have a type, and she is right there, right in the tin ring. Dark hair, beautiful, always looks a little disappointed in you. Sorry. Where did I go just now? When a PC is charmed, it's the ultimate loss of player agency.

In 5E, charmed creatures can't attack the charmer or target them with abilities or effects that would harm them, so already the player may not be allowed to make the choice they want to, you know, I don't know, murder the hell out of the thing that's trying to control their mind. Plus, the charmer has advantage on ability checks to interact socially. Now, charm spells do have limits on what they can make the charmed creature do, so make sure you understand those limitations if you pull charm spells out against the party.

The charm spell itself, for example, doesn't make you hate your party mates. You just now have a new friend. Oh, hey! This spellcaster, that's my new buddy. Have you met Laura the fighter and Mikhail the cleric? Oh, they are awesome. A charm spell doesn't make you flip sides of a combat.

It just makes you view the charmer as a potential ally. Most of us, for example, don't punch our friends when they do something we don't agree with. Unless you have an unusual relationship like that. And if you do, you do you, boo. But most of us don't. So imagine one of your friends punched another one of your friends. You'd probably try to separate them,

try to talk to them, try to reason with them. Maybe wedge yourself in to separate them from each other. A charm spell is not a one-way ticket to permanently losing control of the character. It's just a situation that can be kind of fun to roleplay, actually. Look at the literal text of the standard baseline charm spell. It says the creature regards you as a friendly acquaintance. It does not say mind-controlled thrall.

If a casual acquaintance at a bar asks you to buy them a drink, you might do it. If they ask you to step in front of a charging monitor for them, you're going to laugh in their face and say absolutely not. Now, that being said, high-level magic like dominate person, absolutely changes the math. It strips away a lot of nuance to it. But for the vast majority of charm effects, the game isn't asking you to switch sides on the initiative tracker.

It's asking you to navigate a conflict of interest. Your allies are trying to kill someone you suddenly kind of care about. And that person is actively trying to kill your allies. That asymmetry, by the way, is a gold mine for tactical chaos that doesn't require the GM to play your character for you. Same thing is true, by the way, with the suggestion spell. The suggestion spell, when used cleverly by the DM,

can take a character completely out of combat. The GM makes a reasonable suggestion like, Hey, uh, Frontline Fighter, it is cold in here. Why don't you go shut that door for me to keep the cold wind out? Never mind if the door would be only easy way for the party to leave the fight and the big bad just got a party member to cut off the escape route. Or, hey, uh, aren't you tired? Don't you want to take, I don't know?

let's just say about 18 seconds to sit down and catch your breath? Or, hey, fighter, I'm the VIP your boss was expecting, so why don't you lead me through the castle? I'm starting with spells like charm and suggestion because, in my opinion, they represent one of the most frustrating forms of debilitating conditions because they directly assault the core mechanic of the RPG medium player agency. Unlike taking physical damage and making your hit points go down,

or suffering a numeric penalty to a dice roll, which, yes, those are annoying. Failing a saving throw against a mind control effect like this forcibly disconnects players from the driver's seat of their own characters. It demands that they cannot roleplay their own character and may actually have their character go against their characters established motivations,

or maybe even more annoying, sit passively while the GM decides what their actions are, effectively making them a spectator to the game they want to play. When deployed carelessly against a party, these spells really, they punish players by replicating the worst aspects of save or suck mechanics by stripping away the very autonomy that makes role-playing games fun and engaging in the first place. Or a variant, by the way, would be like the frightened or fleeing condition, depending on your game system.

When your character gets that scared and can only run away that takes them out of the game for twice the duration of the fear effect. For example, someone fleeing for three rounds runs away from combat for three rounds. And then they come to their senses and it's going to take them three more rounds, minimum, to get back, barring teleportation magic or something like that. Your character can't act and support their teammates.

They just run and then run back. This could be extremely frustrating for a player. Speaking of being unable to act the way you want your character to, what about the paralyzed status? status effect. It renders you immobile. All you can do is take purely mental actions. In D&D, attacks have advantage against you and your Pathfinder 2E. You are flat-footed. Call of Cthulhu, by the way, attacks against you get a bonus die. More on the call of Cthulhu in a future episode, by the way. Effectively, it's a similar mechanic to advantage in D&D. Roll twice, take the better result.

Whereas being charmed means you can do something, whether you want to do the thing or not. Effectively, when you're paralyzed, you're just an immobile pincushion or cue toy for whatever's attacking you. Worse still, or actually maybe better, depending on your situation, there's being petrified, turned to stone. You are effectively out of the combat, almost certainly, however maybe even out of the game permanently.

Turned to a perfect statue of Baymond the Barbarian, arena the catfork sorcerer, a permanent statue outside the Medusa's lair. And then there are conditions that reduce character stats like enfeebled and stupefied. A fighter losing strength or a wizard losing intelligence can have a cascading negative effect on the party as a whole. Encounters may be balanced around everyone being at full strength, so if one gets weakened, it could cause the whole party to fall, much like a phalanx with one little weak point. That doesn't even count, by the way, instant death effects, like what a mind flare can do,

slurping out your brain like reheated spaghetti or disintegrate spells or something like that. Any one of these conditions can quickly cause a party to crumble, literally in the case of a disintegrate spell, but it might make the party flee, maybe even leaving behind a trusted ally or their remains, or even worse yet, their stuff. Collectively, I'm going to call all these things hard debuffs because they have dramatic, immediate effects on the game. Yes, I'm calling death a debuff. Work with me here. If you think I'm wrong about that, by the way, feel free to leave a comment or send me some feedback. My first tip for DMs using these hard debuffs would be that if you are going to use them, you absolutely need to telegraph that the creature has this ability

or spell. Foreshadow, telegraphed, lore roll, knowledge check, hell, put up a flashing neon sign about, this thing can petrify before you hit the players with it. The classic example would be, like, they come upon a lair and they are highly detailed stone statues in the foyer of this cave. Or maybe there are legends about the stunning effects of this giant bird screech, or maybe have survivors tell tales of long-time friends turning on their once allies just by hearing the big bad speak. Or during the approach to the layer, have the players find piles of ash that are remains of the last adventuring party. Besides making it very obvious, you could also remove any save or suck mechanic in its entirety if it's left in your game system. Maybe you're replacing it with my choice an effect over time. In episode 30, I used petrification as a specific example of one save meaning instant death.

For years, I used a custom version of it where the first failed saving throw meant that you were slowed. The second failure meant you were immobilized, effectively paralyzing your character. from the waist down, but still able to use your arms, speak, etc. And then only after you failed the third save where you truly turned to stone. It gave the player and their allies the chance to save their character from death. Rolling a natural one on a single save to keep from being disintegrated sucks. But if it's a three-round process and you fail to save three times, it takes away the feeling that your entire character's existence hinged on a single die roll.

Plus, your friends had two to three rounds to save you. The party didn't have the spells or consumables or whatever to keep that from happening, then yeah, okay, sometimes bad things happen. That's why being an adventurer is so damn dangerous, and few people do it despite the massive amounts of coin to be made. So let's say there's a hard debuff or effect that would take the character out of the game permanently, but the player or players can't live with that. If that's the case, then you need to provide one or more opportunities to provide a cure or reversal.

Let them be able purchase a stone to flesh spell or ointment or salve or resurrection scroll or whatever they need to get their friend back at some point. Or if it's character death that we're talking about, maybe there's a large town somewhat nearby where resurrection services can be purchased or a monstrous cleric who's sympathetic to their cause. Oh, yeah, okay. So the party cleric is turned to stone by a basilisk, for example. The orcs have been keeping basilics around their backdoor entrance to keep adventurers from sneaking in their lair the back way.

But the party happens to meet a lizard folk clan who freaking hate the orcs, and they're willing to bring the petrified character back if the party helps the lizard folk rid them of the orc problem once and for all. Boom, you've got a solution, the adventure can continue, and the character can come back from certain death. Finally, hard debuffs can have long-lasting consequences, and if it does, you may need to adjust future encounters behind the screen, maybe even on the fly.

You built floor three of the dungeon for the party of five. Traps with the rogue can find, but if the rogue is now a statue out front or paralyzed or had their limbs cut off, you may need to adjust the contents of floor three until the party can get their rogue back, whether it's the original one or replacing one at a nearby town. All of this being said, by the way, am I suggesting that PC should never experience hard debuffs?

Absolutely not. They're part of the game for a reason, and they're what makes certain fights, monsters, and spellcasters very difficult opponents. But when these debilitating effects make an appearance in the game, do use them sparingly, especially ones that are saver suck. Make the threats obvious ahead of time that an upcoming monster can stun or melt them or petrify them or whatever the effect is.

And maybe if you're a generous DM like I am, replace the saver suck hard debuff with a gradual one that evolves over time, giving the player and their allies a chance to save the debilitated character. Treat hard debuffs with care and I'd be willing to bet that you and your players would have fun doing it. Thank you so much for listening. I thrive on feedback. Please email me. Feedback at Taking20Podcast.com or leave a comment

wherever you happen to find this episode. Tune in next time when I'm going to talk about the other type of debilitating conditions, the what I'll call the soft debuffs, like lycanthropy and curses. But before I go, I again want to thank our sponsor,

Concrete. I hope the concrete puns really helped reinforce understanding of today's topic, or at least, hopefully it laid the foundation for it. This has been episode 280, all about hard debilitating conditions. My name is Jeremy Shelley, and I hope that your next game is your best game.

The Taking 20 podcast is Copyright 2026 by Jeremy Shelley. The opinions or views expressed by guests are their own, and do not necessarily reflect those of the host. References to game system content are copyright their respective publishers.