Tara Brach - Fierce Self-Compassion - A conversation - Tara Brach & Kristin Neff

Episode Date: June 18, 2021

Fierce Self-Compassion - A conversation between Tara Brach and Kristin Neff - Kristin Neff is a pioneer in self-compassion research and a leader in bringing practices of self-compassion alive in our world. This conversation is on her latest book, Fierce Self-Compassion, which helps women awaken both receptive and active dimensions of compassion - tenderness and fierceness.

Greetings. We offer these podcasts freely and your support really makes a difference. To make a donation, please visit tarabrock.com. Welcome, friends. Namaste. Thank you so much for joining us. So this is a special night. I am joined in conversation with my good friend and colleague, Kristen Neff, and I'm going to give you a brief intro. But just to say that even before we started recording formally, we just jumped right in and there's so much exciting stuff to discuss. It's an auspicious time because both of us had our books come out on the 15th, on the same day, real different kinds of books. And so it just made it extra fun for us.

So Kristen is an associate professor at the University of Texas at Austin, and she's pioneered research and self-compassion, like really leading figure in the field. And along with Chris Gürmer, another friend colleague, she developed training in Mindsul's self-compassion, which I know many, many of you know and have taken. It's now taught by thousands of teachers around the globe. So Kristen's been this key figure in this generation, you know, bringing self-compassion to the forefront of our collective attention internationally. And she did it first with this, her wonderful book, Self-compassion,

which I know a lot of you have read. And this current book, it's fierce self-compassion. I read it. I love it. I recommend it. It cuts new ground. It's really, really relevant to our society. So welcome, my friend.

Welcome, Kristen. Thanks, Tara. And I just have to correct you. So I'm more in the science world. You're more in the Dharma world, but you are a groundbreaker of self-compassion as well. We're in it together. We're holding hands.

I love it. So slightly different doors in, but we're both in the same place. Yeah, and it works really well to have the science and the research and the meditative approaches all commingling. Yeah, so I guess what I'd like to start with is first to say that this is a different kind of offering for you. I mean, self-compassion is the theme, but it's got a larger vision and it really exploring the meaning of self-compassion. First is a society that's marked by dominance hierarchies, gender, race, class, and you hone in on gender and sexism. And I guess I want to start with what made this compelling?

What made it a compelling focus for a book for you? It was so much fun to write because patriarchy is really the backdrop of this book, right? So how does self-compassion play out for women who are socialized in a patriarchy? And I've always been interested in issues that gender equality and power. My dissertation was called reasoning about rights and responsibilities in the context of Indian family life. In other words, in the context of real patriarchy, I've always been interested in this and I used to do research on it. And then I discovered self-compassion in my Buddhist practice and got carried away by research on that. And then things have come full circle, which is why it's so meaningful to me.

But if you want to know the truth tar, the time that I really needed, I knew I needed to write this book was I had my own experience of a Me Too moment, right? Someone that it was a horrible experience, someone that I knew and supported. He was a friend. Well, I thought he was a friend. Turned out to be like a mini Harvey Weinstein. He was abusing people who worked for him. It was at an autism center. And it was just horrible. And so unpacking like what happened. How did it happen? And also how do we disbanded? it was when I started realizing that gender socialization against woman being fierce, against them speaking up, against them not wanting to rock the boat, you know, worrying about what are the people going to say about you. You know, and they actually might say someone. It's not just a, it's not just a misplaced fear that people may not like you if you rock the vote. They will not like you. Those in power. But, you know, our ability to stand up and say, you know, I don't care if you like

me. I like myself. I'm going to say the truth. I'm going to speak the truth. I'm going to draw my boundaries. This fierceness, which is part of self-compassion, part of caring for yourself. I call it fierce mom-the-bearer self-compassion. That real protective instinct is a key part of self-compassion. And it was actually why I was going through that experience that I thought, I got to write a book about this, partly because self-compassion helped me so much get through it, that I realize that this is something I could write for people or other people who have been socialized as woman. And it's not so much actual gender is how you are socialized. Some people are socialized or cisgender. Some people are not. But people who are socialized as women are taught to be tender, but not fierce. People who

are socialized as men are taught to be fierce and not tender. That's a problem because we need both. And so the book is really all about how we reclaim our fierce and tender size and get this healthy balance. So you mentioned mama bear. And you tell a great story that was one of your mama bear realization stories. And I just want you to share it with us. I actually tell two mama bear stories. Is it the one at the zoo or the one in Romania? A couple of moms.

Right, right, right. The one is the zoo. Yeah. So, well, and this is funny because I, You know, I used to always joke, thank goodness I'm a self-compassion teacher or not a mindfulness teacher because I'm not like, I'm not a person who has tons of equanimity, right? I'm a little reactive by my wiring. And so I was with my son at the zoo and it was a bird show and my son's autistic. And he was having a really hard time being quiet.

He was being kind of disruptive. He was standing on his chair and said, look, you know, he was really excited. And this woman in front of us, you know, she was, she had her two little girls. she was trying to watch a show. She kept turning around and trying to shush him, you know, and he just wasn't being shushed. And at one time, she turned around it. From my perception, she gave him the evil eye.

It was like, would you please be quiet? You know, you do anything aggressive to my son? I really did turn into mama bear like this fierce protective energy welled up. And I was incensed. And Rowan said, Mama, who's that? And I said, that's a, and I used a word that started with, it wasn't bare. It was not one of my most mindful moments. And yet, at the same time, I had been practiced in a lot of mindfulness. So what it happened is after the show ended, she was really,

you know, how dare you call me that? And I'm like, how dare you call my son, give my son the evil eye? And like, we were going at it, two moms at a bird show, like losing it at a bird show. But because of my mindfulness practice, you know, I had lost my mindfulness temporarily, but pretty soon I've been doing a lot of noting practice when you note your emotions. And this little note came up angry. And he was, oh, wow, I'm really angry. And I actually said out loud, I'm really angry right now. And she's like, yeah, tell me something I don't know. But, you know, I didn't realize it. Mindfully, I was lost in my anger, but I didn't realize that I was angry. And so when I said, when I noted anger, it allowed me to, you know, deescalate and leave. But for years,

I was taught it as kind of a, kind of a funny, embarrassing story. But, you know, something I my mindfulness came to the rescue, but something I was a little bit, you know, not proud of, right? It was a moment I lost it. But then when I started looking into fierce self-compassion, I thought, wait a second, Kristen, that fierce arising of mama bear, yeah, maybe, you know, you shouldn't have called her, you should, well, not maybe, you shouldn't have called her the B word, yes, you didn't express it well. But you should get down on your knees and pray to that fierce mama bear because that protective energy that a mother has for their child, you know, father's also after their children, that fierce, protective parental energy, that's a beautiful

force of nature. That's something we need to, you know, really honor and be thankful for. It's nothing to be ashamed of. Yes, we do have to work to make sure it's not expressed inappropriately. Yes, yes, yes. And yet, the bottom line is, this is a good thing. And actually, afterward, I ended up hanging a picture of Kali, the goddess Kali, above my meditation mission. You know, Kali, you know, of course you know her. She's a Hindu goddess who cuts off heads and she's like very, very fierce. But the head she cuts off, you know, metaphorically the way I understand it is illusion, right? The illusion of ego.

Those are the heads she's cutting off. She cuts away illusion that, you know, that fierce sword says, this is not right. You know, this is not okay, but also, you know, the illusion of separateness. And so that's why I started realizing that I think women have access. to a fierce energy. I don't know if it's the same as the way men have access or not. In a way, I don't even really, I don't know, I can't say, but I know that women have this ferocious energy inside of them. And it scares them and it scares other people. And society does not allow it to express itself.

Society says, well, it's a bad thing. Shut that down. And that's really helped to disempower us. That's partly why patriarchy is gained a whole because women have been socialized not to rock the boat. that's why I wrote this book because it really, I think it's so important for a woman to honor and, you know, take pride in their fierceness. I'm completely agreeing with everything you're saying. And in fact, what we have in common is the fierceness actually is more accessible in our body minds for whatever reason. I have a similar temperament that it's not hard for me to feel that fierceness, but for years I had shame around aggression, that that was like not a good thing. And that's where the

conditioning of the society saying, you know, it was hard for me to unpack within the anger was something that was actually serving and protecting and had a really powerful, important role to it. So I had to tease those apart. But I'm wondering if you might speak to what you describe as really a full expression of compassion, like a little more on what these two qualities of, you describe them beautifully, of tenderness and agency really are. So we get, we have that right in front of us. What is mature compassion? Yeah. So, so as you know, compassion is defined by alleviation of suffering. And so there's, you know, one of the, another Buddhist goddess of compassion is, um, Avaluki Teshvara, who's got many,

many arms and each arm holds a different instrument, which means that compassion takes so many different forms depending on what you need to alleviate your suffering. So I, I talk about, um, Two main forms, fierce and tender. So tender self-compassion is more associated with nurturing and acceptance. It's kind of like radical self-acceptance, radical acceptance that you talk about. It's a warm, loving energy. Very, very important for emotional healing. We hold ourselves with this warm, loving energy.

I call it loving, connected presence. We're with ourselves. We accept that we're flawed. We accept that our life is flawed. and we love ourselves anyway. And the research shows it's really powerfully linked to emotional well-being. We're less anxious, we're less depressed, we're less stress. Very, very important.

But it's not the only side of self-compassion. So research also shows that self-compassion works not only through acceptance of difficult emotions, but also through change, changing circumstances that cause harm. So we need to accept ourselves, but we don't want to accept all our behaviors. And we don't want to accept all the situations, either that we find ourselves in or the situation that the world is in. So to alleviate suffering, we also need to take action to make fruitful change. And so the three main ways that comes up is self-protection, as you mentioned, drawing boundaries, saying no. And this isn't just personal self-protection.

I really see the social justice movements as self-compassion movements, you know, whether it's Me Too or Black Lives Matter or any of the other movements, It's saying, hey, harm is being done, suffering is being caused. We can't allow it to continue. That is compassion. Also providing for our needs. This is another way it hits women especially hard. We are valued for being self-sacrificing, for being agreeable. That's like one of the most valuable, valued traits of a woman, being agreeable.

So what does that mean? Can you walk my dogs? Can you work an extra shift? Can you do this for me? Yes, yes. Even if we don't want to say yes, sometimes. we say yes because we realize people won't like us if we don't say yes. So a huge part of self compassion, especially for women, is saying, I'd really love to help you, but I'm sorry I can't. I need

to do something else for myself. So providing for our own needs. Interestingly, even though compassion is part of the female gender role, which is why probably the same for you, 80 to 85% of any my audiences are all it's women, because compassion is almost like a female thing. Men think, oh, that's a, men think that's not for me. And yet men have more self-compassion than women, because they feel more entitled to meet their own needs. Right. Again, gender role socialization. So it's really important that women's acknowledge that their needs are worthy as well. And then finally motivating change. This is so huge because research also shows the number one block to self-compassion, is people think it's going to undermine their motivation, that they won't get things done,

that they won't reach their goals, that they won't change bad behaviors. The opposite is true. You know, self-compassion makes you more motivated and really important, you know, it's not a motivation of I will be unworthy unless I achieve. It's, hey, I want to achieve because I care about myself, but if I don't achieve, that's okay, too. It's like this unconditional self-acceptance actually gives you the stable emotional platform needed, not to be anxious, not to become afraid of failure, to learn from your failure is so important. All these are part of what I call fierce self-compassion

or action-oriented self-compassion. It's like Yin and Yang actually maps on beautifully to Yin and Yang. Yin is more the tender, Yang is more the fears. From the perspective of Yin and Yang, ill health is defined by an imbalance of Yin and Yang, and yet we've gendered these things. making sure that no one is healthy because only men are allowed to be young and only women are allowed to be in and that's like that creates problems. So we need we need to and it already is changing, especially with

the younger generation. They're less confined by traditional gender role norms, which is really healthy because they cause a lot of harm. Yeah. And I think it's really valuable and important to describe it in terms of in Yang because the fierce active part, part is guided and informed by that soft part and vice versa. Yes. I love the way Joan Halifax has this phrase having a strong back and a soft front. Yes. And I think it's really useful because I actually can feel it in my body now.

When I sense the full-blown compassion that the strong back has that kind of active, it's got courage and clarity and strength. the commitment. It's really, it's an active, engaged caring for life. And that soft front is, is a receptive, relaxed, tender, attuned caring. And I need them both for the other to be mature. And I bring that up because I was really interested in what you wrote about the research, the difference between the genders in terms of self-compassion, you know, that women are less able to be compassion to themselves. And there's something in. that I have a question about, which is, for me, my compassion for others is only real and

authentic when there's a kind of inner sense of I know what this is like, you know, that I've touched into it some. Otherwise, it's got a little bit of pity or separation. And I find that for men, if there's not a sense of relatedness with other, others, it's very hard to have it be true. I think they can kind of like say, oh, I don't have a problem with this issue inside and they might let it go, but tender self-compassion, like a real self-compassion. I question whether men really have that. So I think both genders end up getting inhibited and it's a form of compassion that's not mature for each. In other words, a woman's compassion for others. if she doesn't feel self-compassion has a limitation on it. And a man's compassion for himself, if he doesn't hold others kindly, has a limit on it. So I just was hoping you could speak to that a little

because I keep coming up with that one. Yeah, I mean, I intuitively feel that's correct. So what the research shows is, you know, but remember, research instruments are clumsy. So I can fill out myself compassion scale or I've also created a compassion for other scale. It doesn't really get at those nuance of mature versus less mature compassion. So just from an empirical level,

it doesn't seem to be the case that you have to be self-compassionate before you can be, at least score high in a compassion for other scale. Because in fact, that's what most people do. They score much higher on compassion for others than self-compassion. You know, and I would be hesitant to say that's not real compassion because, you know, I can think of a lot of women I know, and men I know as well, but mainly women, who are really kind, caring, compassionate people to others and who are very hard on themselves. Is it, is it not less mature compassion? You know, I don't

know. I hesitate to say that, but I will tell you, we do, we do know a little bit about this. First of all, when you learn self-compassion, you grow in compassion for others, which is important, which shows that there's something that wasn't fully realized there, but really important, you can sustain compassion for others when you have self-compassion. So what we know is that people who burn out, whether it's caring for a child or an elderly parent or you're a health care worker or you're a therapist, if you don't have self-compassion,

if you give and give and give in a one-sided way, you will burn out. And so it absolutely helps you sustain, give compassion for others. It increases compassion satisfaction, which I think maybe kind of what your point, pointing to a kind of authenticity in compassion for others. Again, I have to do more research.

Maybe I'll do it someday because what you're pointing to is subtle. But I think in terms of the, we do know that self-compassion is strongly linked to authenticity. So maybe we need to create a measure of some authenticity blended with compassion, because it may be that some people who are scoring high in the compassion scale aren't as authentic as others. I would love to look at that. I think you're on to something. This is, yeah, to be continued. And I think it also has to do with the difference between empathy and compassion. I think when often you ask people, do you have empathy for others or whatever, they definitely do. It's like we can all have empathy, but empathy is actually a burnout kind of experience.

Yeah. You know, con men, some con men have really good empathy skills and they use it to take advantage of other people. So just the ability to be sensitive to others. emotions doesn't necessarily mean you care about them. And so as you say, often what happens is you're sensitive to others emotions, but you aren't self-compassionate for the pain you feel. And you go into personal distress. You either avoid it or you get burned out and it actually shuts down your ability to care. And that's why you can't be sustained because unless we have affect tolerance where we actually can stay with difficult feelings, which means the pain in us, we're not going to be able to to hold a space for others in a compassionate way for any sustained period of time.

Absolutely. And that's really where I see the tender self-compassion. I mean, I don't want to like distinguish them too much because, of course, it is like you and young. At some level, there's always an interaction. There's an element of each. I don't measure them separately. Yet, I mean, in the future, but I kind of don't want to because I don't want to reify these things because they're always working in concert. But the ability to hold your pain to say, this really hurts. I feel overwhelmed. I feel confused. I feel burned out with tenderness. It's actually what allows you to therefore take action and say, okay, you know, what do I need to change this? For instance, one fear of the self-compassion movement that I've heard is, you know, from nurses

and doctors is because I'm starting to teach self-compassion to health care professionals, and it really helps the burnout. It's really effective. And yet the fear is, is this being hospitals are just going to give us the self-compassion training? and not change the fact that we're overwork and underpaid in all the conditions, you know, it can't mean that. So if tender self-compassion is conflated with complacency, okay, I can handle it, therefore I don't need to change the unfair system. That's actually not healthy.

So you always need both. You always need both. Totally, totally resonates. So here we go. This is the question probably that comes at me more than most is I know self-compassion is what I need. I had a lot of trauma growing up. All the messages I received was that I'm damaged goods. My question is really to you is workarounds.

Like when somebody really has hit that wall and they're having like they just cannot seem to extract an ounce of forgiveness. Every pathway goes to in some way the critical mind saying, yeah, but. And just talk a little bit about the workarounds because I know everybody's ears are going to perk up on that one. Yeah, yeah. Well, so you know this is the therapist. is Chris Gummer came up with a great term backdrop for this, which is sometimes, in other words, you've closed your heart, your whole life, care for yourself, and you start opening your heart. It's kind of like when you open the doors of a building on fire, the air rushes in and the flames rush out.

And it can be, you know, first of all, it's like, I'm bad at this. I can't do this. Sometimes it actually makes things worse. Chris, I love Chris, he says, don't worry. Eventually, kaboom becomes kabloom. That's cute. because it actually is a sign that the healing process has begun. So I always tell everyone, you know, yeah, especially if you have a trauma history.

And the signals in your brain that it should be associated with care and soothing and safety get mixed with signals of fear and, you know, threat and danger. It's going to be harder, right? That's just, that's just unfortunately unfortunate reality. But the good news is, is the research shows that especially with the help of a good therapist, you can have compassion. for your past wounds. And then you actually can develop self-compassion as an adult and help yourself feel secure. So you asked about workarounds. Okay. So well, actually the first workaround is just realizing it doesn't mean that this is one more thing you're bad at. There's a name for it. It's called backdraft. It's to be expected. It's a good sign. So that can hopefully make you feel a little

but okay, so this is part of the process. This is part of the healing process. There's a couple more workarounds. One is when you realize that your self-criticism is actually a safety behavior. The reason you're criticizing yourself, there's a lot of reasons. Sometimes it's like a contract, an unspoken contract you made with your caregiver. If you accept, they're blaming you. And if you accept you're right, I'm terrible, then they calm down.

It's like it's a way to feel safe. okay, if I accept that it's my fault, somehow I'll feel safer. There's also the thing that, you know, if you question your parents when you're a child, if you say like, you can't say, I'm sorry, mom, you're off base because I shouldn't joke about it, but, you know, it's, you can't say that. It's way too dangerous, way too scary. So you have to believe what your parents say. That's the safety behavior.

And also, there's this belief that somehow we shame ourselves and we blame ourselves. and we blame ourselves. It'll cause us to change the behaviors that other people don't like. So then that'll help us. It'll keep us safe because we'll change ourselves. It also makes us feel safe because like we beat ourselves up before other people beat us up. It's like we beat them to the punch. And that makes us feel safe.

You know, they're all safety behaviors. And so once we realize that this self-criticism is just a way to feel safe, you start to see that actually that desire to feel safe, is actually a form of self-compassion. You might say it's a misguided form of self-compassion. But that desire is there within you. It's part of you that wants to be safe, that feels you're worthy of feeling safe,

which is why you're bothering to criticize yourself. So in other words, you can have compassion for this pattern of inner criticism. Compassion both ways, both compassion for the inner critic. And also compassion just for the pain of it. It hurts that backdrop. It hurts to be so self-critical. You know what I mean? Even before you get to the point of like self-forgiveness or loving yourself, you just start

with the outer edges. Well, it's just really hurts, you know, I wish I didn't have this pattern. Yeah. If I find if I just say, ouch sometimes just to acknowledge the pain. And also what you're saying is so true about the adaptive intention of the critic. And many people find just talking to the critic and saying, thank you for trying to protect me. Yes. Thank you.

You know, thank you for trying to make me better. You know, I get that you're doing that. And there's something really powerful because then we're in some witnessing place that's no longer as caught by the critic. Yes, exactly. And then you've got some space to allow this other voice, which is with, I really truly believe it's within all of us. You know, it's kind of like this universal compassion itself that we can just tap into, which is this part of us. And, you know, maybe, I don't know, maybe it's part of our consciousness. It also just may be an evolved part of our DNA because we're mammals and we evolve to care.

But I think we have this part of ourselves that does care and that it is able to care. it's just been covered up and suppressed by all this fear. And once you start to say to the inner critic, okay, thank you for trying to protect me. I really appreciate it. Can we hear, you know, I'm not going to shut you out. I'm going to hear what you're saying. Okay, danger.

I'm going to pay attention. But can we have another voice come in? And then that's where the self-compassion will start to flow. It's interesting, though. We also need to use both fierce and tender self-compassion once they're inner critic. So sometimes the tender,

is I accept you. Thank you for trying to keep me safe. But sometimes the more appropriate thing to do is especially when it's like the internalized voice of someone who really bullied you is to be fierce. You know, again, not mean. Fierceness isn't about mean or hate or shame, but it's about drawing a line in the sand. And I'm like, I'm sorry that's not acceptable. It's kind of weird to talk to yourself that way, but that's not acceptable. It's not okay to speak to me that way. This part of ourselves is speaking in such a charge language. sometimes we need to stand up to our own inner critic. You know, and again, it's always both. Yeah, that's almost like that phrase, this is real but not true.

It's like, okay, you're there, but I'm just not going to believe you. That's right. It's very powerful just to decide I'm not going to believe that voice. I'm just not going to. And that's drawing a boundary. Yeah. And I just have to say some people think that, you know, it's my parents, it's always my parents from our early upbringing.

there is something physiological about self-criticism because it does tap into the threat defense system, the reptilian brain. So for instance, my son, Rowan, is very self-critical. Now, you can imagine, I've taught him since he was like an infant to be self-compassionate, right? I've tried to give him that message. And he used to say, don't give me that self-compassion stuff, Mommy. I don't want to accept the pain. You know, this is so, natural. Of course we don't want to accept the pain. He's never been criticized in his life. You know, because he's autistic, first of all, he's really conscientious. We didn't need to be really firm with him. Thank goodness. But he's never been criticized or harshly punished or anything.

And yet he's afraid. He's like seeing movies. He's just from seeing movies and cartoons. He's seeing cartoons of bullies and people being punished. And he projects that when he makes a mistake. and he imagines being criticized, even though he's not being actually criticized, and he criticizes himself as a way to prevent that. And the reason I say that is because it's just there's something about our biology, our physiology as human beings that when we get frightened, we go into fight our flight mode and we fight ourselves thinking that's going to protect us, or we flee in shame thinking we're going to be safe from the judgments of others, or we freeze and get stuck. thinking it'll go away. So, you know, we really don't need to beat ourselves up for beating ourselves

up because it just comes from the natural, even biological imperative to be safe. It's true. And as we start to unwind this, it's part of the process to have to go into those raw, very physically felt feelings of fear and of shame. And what I've noticed a lot, you know, people have some idea that there's this hierarchy that I need to hold myself in self-compassion. I can't be dependent on others' compassion. And part of what is so clear is that we are social beings. Our experience of who we are is completely mirrored and taught to us by our caregivers in society. And for me, one of the real powerful and necessary workarounds is that,

But when we can't, you know, we might see the judgment and we've talked to the judgment, but still that not in our body that says, I'm bad. There's a felt sense of badness and it's very core and we can't talk ourselves out of it. And sometimes what we need, the self-compassion of letting in the care of another and that that as part of the meditation, if I'm really stuck for me to say, well, Kristen is looking at me in a kind way. She cares about me. She wants to help me. And letting that in, beginning to be reminded of our gold, of our basic goodness, because the care you described is there in all of us. It is. But it gets hijacked by that really raw, horrible feeling of badness. And sometimes

the only way to come back is when another reminds us, like we needed our parents. to it's a kind of spiritual reparenting when we when I imagine Kristen actually radiating care towards me and if I let it in it that to me is one of the workarounds that is most necessary I think for all of us at certain times so I just kind of wanted to bring that into the conversation no I think that's so true so there are three basic ways to practice self-compassion there's self-to-self right I can give me myself compassion there's imagining what you would say to someone you cared about and just making a U-turn. So like self to others, your model, then you turn it around. And the third way, as you just mentioned, is other to self. But as you

said, we have to be able to let it in because sometimes people are compassionate and we're so full of self-blame. We don't even let it in. So those are three different doorways we can take. And, you know, different doorways are going to be open at different moments. And it's an experiment. It is. More than anything, I found that when I'm working with myself and others, I keep trying stuff out. Like it wasn't until a few years ago that I realized when I imagine my future self, just a more evolved awake version of me. And I imagine how that being, and I'm kind of doing it right this moment, would be holding me. There's just a waking, it's like I can let that in because that's me, you know. But that's just a trick of the mind. But I think tricks of the mind are

totally legal. You know, it's like, well, isn't it all a trick of the mind? You're the drama. It is. Yeah. Yep. We're just experimenting to see what helps free us up. Yeah.

Yeah. No, but that's really important. Just find what works. It's very pragmatic too. There are so many ways to practice self-compassion. There's this perspective taking. Also just physical touch. You know, we really in mindful self-compassion program, touch.

And again, touch can be soft. You know, we all of the fist over the heart. you know, like the kind of strength or your body posture when you need, you know, strength, just like the strong back. Going to physiology is a really good shortcut because sometimes your brain just can't go there. It's just too full of the storyline and we're so unworthy. But our body can receive that care. You know, our bodies are primed by evolution to experience touch as a signal of care.

That's how parents communicate care to their children. So it's already built into our physiology. So when you do this, you're actually deactivating parasympathetic response. You're increasing heart rate variability. You're lowering cortisol, reducing sympathetic response. So, you know, even for me, it's so funny. Now when I practice self-compassion, I almost never even go to the storyline because it's just, you know, it's kind of whatever, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

I just work in the body. So I'll wake up in the middle of the night and I'll be feeling some tension in our body. I don't even know what's causing it. I might have some ideas, but it doesn't even matter. I'll feel the tension in my body, is a physical sensation. And then I'll put a gentle hand there. And then I'll often say something like, you know, may let go of what doesn't serve me or may let go, a practice letting go. And then, you know, I care and I send myself kindness purely at the physical level with no storyline attached. And it comes up almost every single night. So obviously during the day, I'm generating new stuff that I'm hanging on to and holding it my body.

And then I work with it at night. And to be honest, I found, but you know, I've also done 20 years of therapy. So it's like I've done my therapy. It's really useful to go and work through the storyline and have some understanding of why we are the way we are and all that. But at some point, that's what I've heard about my book. At some point, once we kind of have a good enough ego and a good enough understanding and sense of self, it's almost like, you don't even have to work with that anymore.

but you still have to, you know, chop wood and carry water in the sense that you still hold in your body, those little self-judgments, those little fears, those little stressors, sometimes big stressors like the pandemic. And so we need to continue the practice of self-care, especially in terms of helping our body release the tension that it stores with compassion. And they say, I mean, the issues are in our tissues. I haven't heard that one. I love that. It's great. And, you know, when I teach people, which is just mindfulness and compassion. It always has to come into the body. And many people say I can't feel my body because the trauma.

And then we just do it gradually. We just even just to feel, put the hand on the throat and feel the little bit of tightness or the hand on the heart. But for me, it's not until I've actually felt it in my body that there's a shift in identity. And there's a shift from being the not okay self to more being the space of, of compassion that's holding it all. And that shift doesn't happen unless there's a somatic element.

So I really love what you're describing. Yeah. I hope I'm not seeing me to woo-woo here, but I am a scientist. It just in terms to be honest, what I often find, I don't know if this happens for you is sometimes I'll get this big release and like my body will shudder or I'll feel like the energy move. So when it releases, I really feel the release. And as a scientist, is I can't explain it, but I'd be stupid if I didn't acknowledge it because something is happening physiologically that I can experience reliably. So there's a lot we don't understand about how all this is stored in the body. But we know things shift and we know shifts happen biochemically. They happen in the mind and the neurons. We know it's on every level and you have a sensitivity to the shift

in the body. The energetic, there's an energetic level, which I'm not sure we totally understand through science yet, but there's something's happening. If you do a lot of meditation, you become very sensitive to energy. Yeah. And it's one of the levels that when we know there's a release, it just filters into everything. But compassion, as you say, the mindfulness of compassion. And of course, mindfulness is part of compassion. You can't, from my point of view, you can't have compassion without mindfulness.

They're just absolutely integral to each other. if that's not there just just like cold awareness won't do it it has to be warm loving awareness in order to have that shift happen that's true yeah that totally get it so i'd like to come back to the particulars for women and one of the things i've been wanting to bounce with you you know when there's sexual trauma and this goes for for racial trauma too yeah you know how to relate to the perpetrator. It's so natural to feel that anger and hatred and we know that it can get locked in. And we also know it's intelligent and that we need to sense the fierceness and the healing part. So you speak a little bit about how you guide people in bringing out what's fierce and compassionate

and also working with that stickiness where we get caught in the stories of bad other. Yeah, I can talk about it. I can't say I've totally perfected it. So the story told you about this man who was really a sex predator and young woman I knew. It was just, it was, it was horrible. It was like a malignant narcissist and, you know, there's a lot more of them out there than I realized it wasn't until I started talking to other women about their stories. Almost everyone has a story of one of these people in their life, you know, a narcissistic, manipulative, lying, abusing. you know, narcissist. And so what makes sense to me and what I try to work with. But again, I'm not coming from a place who's saying you've got it all figured out. And I'm not sure if we ever have it figured out. I think it's like we try to approach it and we try our best. Then we fall off and we try to, you know, use compassion to get back on. But what makes sense to me is really making sure that we're aiming our fierceness at the harm, not the person causing the harm. Right? So at the behavior, you know, and you can be as fierce as you need to

to stop the behavior. And that might even mean doing things like going to the authorities, speaking up. So in the situation with me, you know, I did speak up because I needed the harm to continue. And he, this man did not, you know, thought that I was abusing him and all this stuff and really blame me for it. But the harm would have continued. So asking yourself that question, you know, what causes harm? So now when you hate and if it's malicious and you focus on the person, then you're actually causing harm and you're undermining compassion. But if you focus on the harm itself, preventing the behaviors causing the harm, then you're in the service of compassion. So for me, that's really the dividing line. Is harm being caused or is harmed being prevented?

And it's a fuzzy line and it's not clear and I got it wrong sometimes and then you give yourself compassion for getting it wrong. And it's not like you get to this state of balance. Like you live there forever. It really is this process. But I find that that really helps as the dividing line that a person, I mean, he didn't choose his genes. He didn't choose his upbringing. He didn't choose whatever, whatever causes and conditions led to him becoming the becoming this person. And I also know he has a lot of self-hate because of it. Right. I don't know. I assume he does, actually. Maybe he does it. I'm assuming. He may have a lot of self-hate because of it. But nonetheless, he didn't choose the causes and conditions that led him to be who he was. So there's no need to

hate him or to, you know, vilify him. So a lot of anger is there. But the more I can aim it at, okay, this has to be to make sure that the harm doesn't continue, that no more woman are abused. I felt good about that. You know, when it started getting into when I was, and there were times that I admit that I was doing this when I was perseverating on it and really feeling this hatred, then when I could remember, well, first of all, you know, I wasn't interacting with him. So it wasn't harming him, it was harming me. Yeah, yeah.

So, you know, really trying to give myself a lot of compassion for all the anger I had to really try to channel it to do good. That seemed to help. But it's sticky. You know, I end the book with this chapter about the compassionate mess, which I love that metaphor. Actually, Rob Nairn was the first one. I heard that from the goal of practice is to be a compassionate mess because it is messy, you know, and we try our best. But we will get it wrong. So I also have whole chapter on anger. You know, we try to have the anger be constructive. What makes it constructive? It's not personal. It's not full of ego. It's not aimed at a person. It doesn't cause harm. You know, it helps. It focuses us. It helps be brave. But we're going to get it wrong.

You know, it's to kind of expect to get it wrong. And then when you get it wrong, have compassion for yourself for getting it wrong. And they just try to try again. You need to keep on picking yourself up. you keep on trying. And as long as the messy process is held with compassion, you can keep going and hopefully you won't get stuck in that in that rigid place of hatred. And I love that in your book. I mean, that's why I asked this question, Kristen, because it's not one predator. It's the predatory nature of males in this society. And there's so many women who just hate or angry at men because it is, it's not the particular person, but then the energy does get fixated on that person. So if we can get to the harm and not the person, and I know the more it's been a direct

violation, the harder it is to do that. And it becomes really important to keep doing that inner work of, okay, to feel the anger, feel the hatred, give it total permission. It doesn't mean you stay in the stories, but give it total permission. And I know for myself, where it comes for me is often in different areas like white supremacy and it's it's it's not a person it is a fear and an aggression in the whole society yeah but I end up targeting it and then I have to unpack it that way I have to say okay there's anger and then since under the anger there's fear and under the fear there's grief about the harm yes and underneath that it's that I care and if I can get to there's something I care about. I'm angry because I care. That's right. Then there's an

intelligence that helps to aim it and act in a way that's going to be more constructive, but I can't bypass it inner process. No, absolutely. And also I think forgiveness. I mean, forgiveness is a late stage process. I think some people, they use forgiveness as a way to avoid their difficult feelings. You know, either self-forgiveness, maybe they don't want to feel the shame. So they oh, I just forgive myself or other people they don't want to feel as difficult feelings. So I just forgive you. Forgiveness, the spiritual bypass doesn't work, you know. And sometimes, you know, it's like forgiveness may never come or hopefully it comes,

but it takes its own time. And we can't get there until we fully felt all the feelings of rage and pain and hurt. But this is where the fear, self-compassion also comes in is the commitment to prevent harm. Yeah. kind of again, that strong back. So, you know, when I've done, I've done things I'm ashamed of absolutely. I'm not going to tell them here, but if you read my book, you'll see I've done things I'm ashamed of. I've done things that. And I love, I love the way, I love your willingness to speak because it actually helps. Yeah, I don't, yeah, I don't want to come off as like this self-compassion

guru has it all together. I've done some really, you know, things I really regret. But I've used them to harness a real commitment not to repeat them, if at all possible. you know, and that's the fierce self-compassion. First of all, to commit when you've done something, to commit as much as possible not to do it again. And then for other people, really, if you're going to forgive someone, make sure you absolutely to commit

to not letting them harm you again. Have your radar up, you know. So I have to say, I've had so many bad experiences with men. I'm just going to say it. I haven't. Unfortunately, I'm single right now. And it may change it right now. It just hasn't worked out so well.

My BS meter, my red flags, they are so sensitive. So I'm like committed. I'm open to a relationship. It would be great if one comes, but I'm not going to put up with any BS. I'm not going to deal with any narcissism or any, any, you know, if I even see the hint of even a pink flag or a tiny bit of red in there, like, I'm sorry. I'm not interested, you know? And that's because of my commitment to protect myself. but it's not the commitment isn't like a it's like a fear doesn't mean I'm not going to be open I

haven't given up it's not going to stop trying but I'm I'm going to be mama bear in the future and that's important that we're mama bears with ourselves just like we would be for our children it's a really good metaphor it is because I you know you might think of the ideal parent but we love our children unconditionally but we don't let them get away with anything, that's not good for them, you know, and we don't let other people harm them. Of course we don't. We need to be that way with ourselves. One of the things I've seen in many of us is that we're uneven in these, you know, in the strong back and soft front, you know, we all are and we're, and generally where we're uneven, we're kind of forgiving ourselves for one

side and cultivating the other side, that kind of thing. But something that really has been standing out more and more in recent years is how we can't wake up these dimensions by ourselves, that we really need each other to be part of it because there's a way in which our own realities box us in. And so it's, I read you and I read you talking about how you have, you know, much more, your mama bear can come through strong and it can sometimes be in a way that the society would judge as being too much or too fierce or too aggression, you know, it's, it's. And actually sometimes actually is. And of course, it is. Our strength is also, sometimes, you know, but reading it actually just in another level allowed me to go, oh,

so this is just we're all, we all strong here, not so strong here. Yeah. And it actually being in relationship with you, Kristen, made me more hold, hold my own, forcefulness in a much more wise way, just reading about it. And I think we need to be talking to each other, all of us. Yes. We all of us have blind spots about where what seems like a weakness is actually a strength or where our strength needs to be refined so it doesn't get attached and overdone. So I just, and I've noticed. You're right community. Yeah. And I must say that has been hard during the pandemic. That's why when we went online, we started this satsung where people actually were sharing just about the kind of things we're talking about. I feel I cannot

forgive my brother-in-law for his views politically. I, you know, whatever it is, it helps so much for people to hold a space for others where they were stuck because what it brought out is what you teach so beautifully about common humanity that if we can really get, I'm not alone, like really get it in a cellular way, everything opens up. Yeah, it's so true. It's so key. And I think, again, well, you know, obviously in the Buddha's past, Sangha is one of the, Buddha, Sangha, Dharma, right? You got it. Those are three. Check, check, check. Right? The We do need the community. It's so key. And I think sometimes people like, you know, writer, psychologist, maybe we focus a little too much on the individual. I think, I think that as a Dharma teacher, because you create Sanga is more built into the system. But in psychology, actually, sometimes we do focus too much on the individual. And it's such a good reminder that we need community because also the way our brains work, we're constantly influencing each other. You know, so the way we're, the way. I am with you is different than the way I would be with someone else. I'm actually different.

And so you're helping to co-create me and I'm helping to co-create you. And that's always true with whoever we're around. So it's a really good reminder. I've just seen so many people try to say to themselves, others feel this too, but it's not until they're with the others who are actually in the grip of feeling it that their body registers. that they're not alone. It's a very good point. It's very good point. Yeah.

Physically. Yeah. And Zoom is good. It's not quite as good as in person, though, partly because of what happens at the physical level. Energetically. Energetically. Yeah.

Yeah. It's better than a kick in the face. But, you know, it's what's what I say, but yeah, it's not quite as good. Well, let me ask you this, because I think we're winding up a bit, is just in current times, like, if you could say like what is the edge of your practice and how what are you working with what what feels alive right now that you're learning and growing through um yeah so it's a little bit what i what i mentioned before and actually is where i close my book i'm kind of talk about this so

you know i'm entering a different phase of my life i'm menopausal right and things change not only hormonally, but in the way you start looking, but just stuff starts really shifting. So it's really letting go a lot of things, letting go of attachment to youth. That's a big letting go, right? And then the relationship thing, I write a lot about it in the book, at the end of the book, because I know a lot of women are where I'm at. I've had several failed relationships. I'm currently single.

Again, I'm heterosexual, so I would like to find a man and find a partner. But it hasn't been happening. It's not happening. The pandemic didn't help, but it may, and I'm really having to open to it. It may never happen. I hope it does, but I can't control it, you know, and I'm not. So really committing to not letting my happiness be dependent on that. And as I've worked with that edge,

just really unlike all these layers. And it's not just me of female conditioning through the millennia of that our worth comes from a man who loves us. Our beauty comes from a man who says, I think you're beautiful. Our worthiness comes from a man who says, I love you, I care about you. Our safety comes from a man who says, I'm here for you. I'll take care of you. I'll protect you.

And back in the day, it was the case. vote, we didn't own our own property, you know, we were, we were, the patriarchy made us fully dependent. Now, luckily, things have changed enough to where we aren't, you know, I'm not economically dependent, right? We aren't, I'm not actually dependent. I'm fully capable of living independently, but there are still those little whispers of, you know, if you don't have someone who loves you, what does that say about you, spinster, you know, all those voices come up. And, um, I, um, I have have to work with them. And I've, you know, I have moments of success. Again, it's not like you get there and you're done. It's like I fall on and off. But I have to say that when I've had those moments

of real success, of really letting go of that and letting go of the idea that I need to have a man to love me and think I'm special to be really lovable and special when I realize actually that comes from, it comes from me, but it's not really the small me, it's the big me. You know, it comes from within. It comes from, you can call it God, the universe, whatever you want to call it, it doesn't matter. But when I can really open to that, and also open, you know, that existential loneliness that we try to get filled in a relationship, that intimacy, it feels so beautiful, partly because it's like that little existential loneliness for a moment, when you're in someone else's arms gets quieted. And it's so beautiful. If you know anyone, Tara, send them my way.

I've opened you. It's not like I don't want it. But you know what I mean? That that feeling that we, that's the only way to get it is physically through someone else's arms. And I have had moments when I've really been able to feel that unconditional union that's not dependent on another physical being. and the unconditional love.

And I have to say those moments have been, you know, the most meaningful of my life, really. It's not, I wish I could, again, it's not like you get there. And then you're, I thought I got there. And I'm like this. It's so great. And then you go, you fall off. And it's a process.

And it's a cycle that always needs to be nurtured and tended, as well. You can't like, you can't get complacent about it. So, yeah, that, that's my, that's my path. letting go of the fear of being alone, letting go of that voice that says somehow I'm not as worthy or lovable or special if I'm alone, that remembering that love doesn't come from a person. It comes from something much bigger. That's my edge. And I am working with it. And I, you know, I have my moments. It's really good. I mean, that's, that is freedom. That, that's true freedom.

And when you really get that, that your happiness isn't dependent on any circumstances, whether it's having a man or whether it's having health or anything. That's what I was thinking as you were speaking. If we can get outside all the conditioning that if only, you know, if only I had the partner, if only I had the body or if only I had my health, all of it, then we get what's sometimes called Happy for No Reason, where we're just plain resting in the gold in our presence and love, you know. And it really helps for you right now with me to be naming that it's hard and it's possible both. Yes. And I think that's the deal. You know, it's hard. And the conditioning, like you said,

it just keeps flying up in our face. So not to not to think, oh, that means that I can't do this. It's just that it's deep conditioning. It is. And we can. And by talking. about it, it gives us more of that faith that really carries us. And I think women especially, because there is a, you know, there's something shifting among women. And I think the Me Too movement. And, you know, I hope it doesn't, we don't talk about it as much anymore. And I totally understand it. Race, we need to be talking about race and all these other forms of oppression. We can't forget the gender. That also needs to be a conversation that's nurtured. Because I think women really, you know, we need to be.

need to start talking to each other about this. Because in a way, we're the only ones who understand the experience of being a woman. I mean, not that we can't have male allies, of course, but really talking about what it means to be a woman and all the conditioning we face. I mean, the pressures on attractiveness are so huge and painful to be able to just really share that pain. And again, the pressures to have a relation. So many pressures. The pressure to care for others, the more as women, we can talk to each other about what's happening and be as honest as possible. And as you say, we need self-compassion, but it really helps if we, you know, if we give each other compassion for this pain as well. And I really hope that women will start

doing that more and more. And if my book can make a small little contribution to this conversation, I'll feel so satisfied and happy. Wow, that's beautiful. I'm going to close with that because I feel like that's what your book does, is that it shines such a light on such a big domain of suffering and where we can wake up our self-compassion and our shared compassion in a way that ripples out through the whole society. And we know it's utterly interdependent, intersectional with every other form of oppression. We need to do it on every level. Yes, every level.

every level. Yeah, we really do. And that of deep bow to, Kristen, thank you so much. Thank you for your beautiful book and for your honest, refreshing, bright presence. It's just a pleasure, really. You know, I always love talking with you, Tara. This is beautiful. So thank you. Yeah. You bring out the best in me. Beautiful, my dear. Thank you. And thank you all who have joined us. Please, order this book. It is so good. here's self-compassion. We maybe have a copy right here. I was going to say, oh.

I have it nearby somewhere. Here you go. Here we go. There we go. It's beautiful. It's really, I love the colors. Okay. Many blessings.

Thank you. Bye. For more talks and meditations, and to learn about my schedule or join my email list, please visit tarabrock.com.