Tara Brach - Living with a Courageous Heart in Times of Crisis: A Conversation with Tara Brach & Oren Jay Sofer

Episode Date: May 9, 2024

The pace of change is speeding up and much of the news we receive is alarming. More than ever, we need the inner reflections and meditations that help us connect with our capacities for clarity, bravery and openheartedness. This is what Tara explores with Oren Jay Sofer, in his book entitled: Your Heart Was Made For This: Contemplative Practices to Meet a World in Crisis with Courage, Integrity, and Love (2023.) Oren teaches mindfulness, meditation and non violent communication, and his prior book is bestselling Say What You Mean: A Mindful Approach to Nonviolent Communication (2018.) Learn more about Oren Jay Sofer and order books at: https://www.orenjaysofer.com

Greetings. We offer these podcasts freely and your support really makes a difference. To make a donation, please visit tarabrock.com. Namaste, greetings friends. As most of us are registering, the pace of change continues to speed up and much of the news we receive is alarming. So it feels like more than ever we need inner reflections. and meditations that can help us connect with our capacity for clarity, for bravery, for open-heartedness in responding to our world. And so this is what I'm exploring today with Orange A. Sofer, who has a new book and the title

of the new book is Your Heart Was Made for This. The Contemplative Practices to Meet a World in Crisis with Courage, Integrity, and Love. Arn and I talk about Engage Buddhism, which is spiritually rooted activism. We talk about the very roots of a compassionate response. We talk about how trauma impacts our responsiveness to the world, ways to gladden the heart and resource ourselves, how we might respond to the great polarized divides around violence in the Middle East, divides around the election. in the United States, and how our inner resourcing can guide us in bridging devise with each other.

So I found so much of value in this conversation, and I trust you well too. Enjoy. So welcome, my friend. Thank you so much for being with me and part of this. Thank you for having me. Yeah, I'm going to want to talk a lot about your new book because I love it, but I want to to start with something even broader where maybe if you could, I mean, you've spoken about how your writing and your teaching is really informed by engaged Buddhism, nonviolent spiritual

activism. So maybe to start by sharing with those who are joining us, you know, what is this? What is this? Why is it so meaningful to you? Yeah. I'll start maybe from the personal and then say a little bit more kind of historical for listeners who are unfamiliar with the kind of movement of engaged Buddhism. I was drawn to practice not only through my personal suffering and kind of existential crisis as a young adult, but also out of deep concern for the suffering in our world. At that point, it was the late 90s and the environment. mental crisis was kind of just beginning to come into public consciousness, even though scientists had known about it since the 70s. And also just looking around and seeing how we're destroying

the earth, income inequality, beginning of the homelessness crisis, you know, the effects of the political decisions here in the U.S. and the 80s were starting to show up. You know, when I was growing up, that homelessness wasn't as big of an issue, but by the time I got to college, it was. And so I felt this deep concern and I also felt confused about how to engage. And understanding my own heart and mind made a lot of sense as a first step. And I noticed early in my practice that the experiences I was having on the cushion, nothing extraordinary, but just touching into basic sanity, capacities for more clarity and kindness and patience weren't showing up in my interactions. And that was when I discovered nonviolent communication, Marshall Rosenberg's practice,

which was the subject of my first book, which really provided the first kind of bridge to integrate spirituality into my life and make it real in relationships. And then through that, I started learning more about nonviolence in general as a a practice as a movement, and then eventually learning about the work of people like Ambedkar, Aria Ratne, Joanna Macy, Tickna Khan, and their understanding of the relevance of Buddhist teachings to collective sufferings, pain and difficulty that arises, not just on the personal level, but from the structures of our society. And one of the phrases that stood out to me from Ticknat Han that I think I quote in the introduction of the book is,

once they're seeing, there must be acting. Otherwise, what's the point of seeing? And it just made so much sense to me that these really sobering teachings about acknowledging, honestly, the presence of suffering in our own hearts would also apply to the presence of suffering in the world. And just as we strive to understand and alleviate the causes of suffering in our own hearts, that in the same way, when we look around and see suffering, the compassion and the sort of unfolding of spiritual practice and sort of maturing as a human being urges us to try to understand the causes and to alleviate them. So that's really the essence, as I understand it, of engaged Buddhism is this,

injunction to say, we're here to end suffering. It's not just about ourselves. It's about one another and non-human, more than human life on the planet responding with wisdom that arises from looking deeply. Yeah. Well, everything you say resonates. And it's very much embodied in the bodhisattva path. A path of awakening beings means that we do the inner practices that wake up our hearts and mind, and then we bring that to our world actively and engage, educated way. And the very nature of compassion includes action. It includes responding. So I love the way you put it. And I just wanted to toss in because I know you've been inspired by Ariotenei and Sarvodaya that Ari, this is for those listening, amazing, amazing teacher guide leader died just, I think it was just last week.

I hadn't heard that yet. Yeah. Wow. Of course, you know, who's like late 90s or something. Right. And still really, really active. Yeah. But just to touch on maybe what Sarvo Dai, the meaning of Sarvodai is everyone waking up together.

Right, right. And it's an explicit social engaged movement that's based in. Buddhist principles, just what you were saying, waking up those inner qualities. And then in Sri Lanka, where it's being practiced, people actually practice contemplative practices together and work together to better their communities. So it feels like it's very, it's a natural for everything you're teaching right now as a model. Yeah. Yeah, I had the pleasure of meeting him in 97 when I first started practicing in Budgeya, he came to visit and very inspiring figure. I think that the Sarvotia movement in Sri Lanka is the largest grassroots development network,

certainly in Sri Lanka. And the whole model is beautiful. He spent time with one of Gandhi's protégés in India, right, at the ashrams and was so moved by the vision that he brought it back to Sri Lanka. And it's all based on Donna, on this idea of donating labor, and the gifts of our collective work as a community, building infrastructure and schools and gardens

and responding to the needs of villages and those with less in Sri Lanka. You know, I think just going back, back to where we started Tara around engaged Buddhism and the practice of acknowledging suffering. You know, one of the things that I've really been reflecting a lot on lately, particularly as a new parent and feeling the urgency of the times we're living in in so many ways is how the forces of ignorance operate not, again, not just on an individual level, but also on a collective and a structural level.

And just as in the same way in, say, basic mindfulness practice, we train to be aware from moment to moment and to emerge from the spell of forgetting and being on automatic. There's, I think, this very deep trance that we have all become stuck in in the modern world to just keep going along with business as usual, as if everything's okay, as if we can just keep going to the grocery store and driving our cars, or if we have the privilege to live in a society that has systems that are still functioning to get food and energy and transportation, and that

it'll just continue and to ignore, to live with ignorance, to ignore the underlying causes and mechanisms that sort of are actively eroding the life support systems of the planet and destroying communities and ecosystems, human and more than human. And so I feel like the practice of mindfulness and engaged Buddhism today really is calling us to wake up in a radical way to the reality of the world that we're living in. And to keep striving for this radical reorientation of our priorities. The more awake we are to suffering, the more naturally we respond to it. And so to learn to see with eyes of wisdom, to see clearly that the way we're living is harmful and unsustainable. And then to use the

The dissonance that that seeing creates inside, however it manifests, whether it's anger or grief or fear or numbness, as grist for the mill to look more deeply and really ask, okay, what am I called to do? Where is my, where is my place to respond? What is my task? And Ari was very clear about his task in Sri Lanka and this amazing, inspiring example of the power of connection and community and generosity to heal and to build and to really integrate the best of human values into society. And for each of us, it inevitably is going to look different. And it doesn't need to be grand. I think so much of the mythology

or kind of popular beliefs of the modern Western world is this kind of heroic vision. And yet building relationships with our neighbors, you know, planting native species and tending to gardens, whatever we can do that we feel called to that's within our capacity is important because there is so much to do that there's something for each of us. Well, I love what you're saying, and I can imagine listeners thinking, yes, it's horrific what we're facing in this world and it's not sustainable. I mean, these are existential crises. And I'm already doing more than I can. I'm stressed. I can't handle it. So first, to those that aren't aware, your heart was made for this.

Contemplative practices for meeting a world. in crisis with courage, integrity, and love. So I just want, and of course, you can see my postums here. Thank you for your book, because I think your book is really going at just what we're beginning to talk about. We feel how horrific the suffering is on some level and yet overwhelmed or not knowing pathways to respond. And, you know, in some ways we then just associate.

and as you say, we get habitual. In fact, we don't pay attention in any sort of sustained way. So share a little. What inspired you to write the book? And what are you hoping that readers are going to take from it? Sure. Oh, thanks. There's so much in what you said.

Maybe we can get to the overwhelmed piece because I think it's really important. And it's something that I definitely can relate to. As a new father, I'll say. Right, exactly. Not just as a human being walking to Earth in 20, 24. But as, yeah, as a father of a toddler and all that that entails and turning the world upside down. So I wrote the book, it started as a response to the pandemic and the series of heartrending events that followed the pandemic of George Floyd's murder, the wildfires out west. And as a meditation teacher, writing about inner resources and how to not just cope, but begin to thrive in difficult times was a way that I could contribute.

And then when we got pregnant the following year, as I was writing the book, the whole project took on a new meaning as I started contemplating the life growing inside my wife and thinking more carefully about the future. and where we were headed. And the relevance, this very deep question came to the foreground of my heart, of what is the relevance of all of this meditation practice I've been doing for my child and for his generation and if he wants to have children? And so the book took on another meaning of really investigating, what is the role of the inner life and contemplative practice? in waking up to and responding to the moment we're living in historically.

And so, you know, the subtitle, contemplative practices for meeting a world in crisis with courage, integrity, and love. That word to meet is really important and to really acknowledge what it is to meet something with awareness, right? It means to actually enter into relationship with it. And so this is one of the many gifts that contemplative practice offers is creating the inner conditions to turn towards the truth. And then to enter into relationship with it, and this is what I was pointing to before, each of us will have a different relationship to it. But if we are in relationship, then just as when we're in relationship with a person, person, it develops, it changes over time. There's a given a take, there's a response. It doesn't have to look a particular way. So my hope and aim with the book is to provide people with the

resources inside to realize their hopes and dreams and to have a solid inner foundation to make a positive difference in our world. The diplomat and climate activist from Costa Rica, Christiana Figueres, talks about needing a kind of spiritual infrastructure. Right? It's a great term. Yeah. It's a great term. I first heard it through Krista Tippett's conversation with her on her podcast, on being. And, you know, she's really pointing to that we need the, the, that foundation and also a kind of scaffolding within to handle all of the challenges that come up, which for many of us begin with this kind of overwhelm that you were talking about. And how do we start to navigate within that? So maybe we can go there or in another direction, if you'd

Well, actually, now that we're talking about it, it's kind of, it's so juicy, as you know, Arn. Because, like, if we're spending so much time either putting out fires or reacting to what grabs our attention, we know that. And we also know that we're in a society that is, you know, grabbing attention is what our society does. So here we are never before in the history of humans has there been so many grabs at our attention through the intercourse. internet and social media. So I sometimes think of that question, you know, if we're at the end of our life looking back, what's going to most matter about this life? And I know many people who just feel a sense of discouragement or disappointment with how their life is unfolding, because in some way they know they're not living aligned with the compass of the heart. They're getting

pulled around, but they're just caught. So I'd love to have you, because you talk about a number of different inner contemplations, and one of the ones that really struck me had to do with resolve. And I'm just wondering if maybe that or related, you know, concentration, mindfulness, what are the inner contemplations that help us stay true to our heart? Well, of course, to stay true to our heart, we first need to be able to feel it and hear it, right? And so you started talking about attention, and I think this is really important to begin to get a handle on how do I stay true to my heart? How do I even hear my heart in the middle of all of this noise to start to recognize how co-opted our attention has become and to start to develop the skill that is really at the heart of so much of contemplative practice

of choosing where we place our attention and starting to make more conscious choices, both externally in terms of media, technology, our time and activities, but also internally, of course, in terms of our thoughts and habits and emotions and patterns, choosing to place our attention in areas and activities and thoughts that will cultivate an inner atmosphere that has a little bit more space, a little bit more balance, a little bit more calm or quiet. And this is where the, you know, how do we stay true to our heart? It's like, you know, many of us find ourselves sort of in the middle of a hurricane in our lives.

The conditions of what that looks like is going to vary, but it's, you know, you know, first we need a little bit of shelter, right? Like you've got to get to a dry place first and regroup. And so I find that a lot of what I'm teaching. these days is some combination of acknowledging and almost giving people permission to soften and gladden the heart to actually recognize the need for that shelter and nourishment. And I feel like staying true to our heart, like one of the first things that we need is some refuge. You know, you wrote a whole book on it. So maybe you can say a little bit more on it, too. It's just that sense of being able to connect with anything that nourishes us, whether it's just a moment

of quiet, some beauty in nature, connecting with a little joy, having a few moments of rest, whatever is restful for us, all these different themes that I explore in the book. And And then it's through some of the sort of reconnecting that happens. It's like my experience and what I see and so many others is that the pressure and the overwhelm and the fear and the grief is kind of fragments us. And then it becomes very difficult to even hear or be in relationship with our heart. And as we recognize the need to slow down and to nourish ourselves and to have even a moments of quiet in some way, things start to come back into focus, back into alignment,

back into connection inside. And then we can begin to hear, you know, what gets called the still small voice, right, in other traditions, to identify our aspiration as we talk about in the Dharma, to really hear the voice of the heart and then bring on board those other qualities you're talking about of resolve and energy and concentration and mindfulness to actually keep remembering and stay true and follow the direction that might be emerging. So yeah, what comes up for you as I say all that? Well, first, I think that the starting place is just as you say, that when we're fragmented, when we're offline, when we're kind of hijacked by the limbic system, we have to pause and find a way to arrive again. I mean, before we can.

have any idea of what matters to us. It's just as you said, we need to feel what's there, be with it. For me, if I even take a few breaths and have the intention to be kind, I mean, even if I'm not feeling kind, because usually when I'm offline, I'm not feeling offline, I mean, by limbic hijack, I'm not feeling kind, but even saying, gee, kindness would be a nice idea. There's the softening you talked about. And then I start realizing, wow, well, that's actually what matters to me is kindness. And it starts coming back, but we can't reconnect with what most matters unless we in some way resolve to pause when we're stirred up.

And so, yeah, I'm right there with you. Yeah. And one of the things that inspired me in writing the book and that I wanted to make sure to build the book around was both a trauma-informed perspective that acknowledges the presence of really, really difficult conditions and states internally and externally, and also practices that are accessible. So not just meditation sitting quietly with our eyes closed, which we may or may not have time for, we may or may not have interest in, depending on what's happening in our life, our particular character or makeup.

But I see contemplative practice as something so much broader, right, than meditation, which is just one form of contemplative practice, just like running is one form of exercise. You might not like to run, but we're still going to move our body and try to be healthy in that way. And so, you know, you talked about just taking a pause and remembering the intention of kindness, you know, placing a flower on the table.

and taking a moment to look at it and recollect the beauty and preciousness of being alive. Folding the laundry with some care instead of rushing through it and just recognizing the blessing of having clean clothes and taking care with our own body or if we're folding laundry for others, those we're caring for. So these are ways to bring these qualities into. the flow of our day-to-day activities. It don't take any extra time. They're just about waking up and recognizing that everything we do,

we're strengthening certain qualities and habits in our heart and our mind. And if we begin to pay attention, we can steer in our life and build the inner toolkit that we need just through the daily routines of Washington, dishes, eating, cleaning, moving about, all of those activities can be imbued with a kind of sanctity and a deep sense of purpose when there's understanding and intention and mindfulness present.

And so that starts to put us in a position where instead of just getting pulled along and flooded by the tides of our world, we were actually navigating. navigating and starting to create like a little island of sanity in our own person, in our relationships, and our community. And that's then positioning us to be more effective in our work or to make choices that can contribute in a different way. Well, part of what I love about your book is, first of all, there are all sorts of practices that are truly accessible.

end, they do interrupt the old patterning, and they give us a chance to discover, inhabit a larger sense of our being, each one in their own little way. They kind of interrupt the habit of our minds, which is really what we need. And you not only do that, you link how that happens to them what becomes possible in terms of engaging in our world. and read countless books on the inner practices, but not the linking it. And you have wonderful stories about people who, you know, do the kind of practice you're saying, maybe the one where once you sense what really matters to you, how you keep steady with it or resolve, and how that actually is a key feature for anyone that wants to be part of the transformation of our society, is that resolve.

So I love your examples that bridge. Yeah, that was one of the most kind of rich and fun parts of writing the book for me. I actually worked with a good friend of mine, Chris Moore Backman, who's a Gandhian nonviolence scholar, because I'm not a historian. I'm not a scholar of nonviolence. I'm a meditation teacher and a communication trainer. And yet, you know, I know and understand the relevance of these qualities, but I didn't have the examples. I didn't have the connections. And so Chris was instrumental in giving me things to read, articles, suggesting examples, and we would talk about each chapter and helping to make those

connections. You know, I think about, like, for example, the chapter on concentration, thinking of Julia Butterfly Hill and she has this beautiful passage in her book where she talks about... You might want to share who she is and stuff. Yeah, so Julia Butterfly Hill, for those who don't know, is an activist who was involved

in some of the tree sits to protect old-growth redwood forests here on the West Coast. And she went into one particular tree. She signed up for, I think it was a one week or two weeks. stint and ended up staying in the tree for over two years living there and dealing with not only weather, hailstorms and wind, but also harassment from the police and helicopters. And she talks about, you know, I wasn't in the tree for two years, however long it was.

you know, I was there day by day, minute by minute. And it's this beautiful example of the kind of concentration that we cultivate in meditation practice and recognizing it. It's just this moment. And actually handling the hindrances that come up, the doubt, the fear, the anger, the confusion, the greed, the longing. And just she talks about using her breath one moment at a time to stay connected to the one pointedness of her intention to protect the tree and to stay true to her values. And it was that

kind of concentration that helped her to get through. And she ended up protecting not only that tree, but several hundred acres. She and the whole movement, which was an integrated movement of activists and steelworkers who had come together to protect this grove of old growth redwoods. But I think you're pointing to also just this is where the hope is. that activists will ground in these different awakening practices and those that are sitting on the cushion waking up will bring it into helping our world. And one of the wonderful examples you used

had to do with bearing witness. And we were talking earlier about how our habit is, it's kind of self-centered. We don't extend our attention to where the suffering is around us. and that stops us from feeling the compassion and then the urge to help. And he described Roshi Bernie Glassman. Yes, right. So maybe you could share that example.

Yeah, yeah, of course. I don't know if he's a Roshi, by the way. I don't know if that's what he's called. I think he is. I think he is. So Bernie Glassman, Roshi Bernie Glassman, was a Zen student who also recognized the need to respond to suffer. and founded something called the Zen peacemakers and founded these bearing witness retreats, starting with street retreats, so people living on the street without any money or identification,

experiencing proximity to suffering and bearing witness to the challenges of living houseless, and then also doing bearing witness retreats at places. of genocide and atrocities in Auschwitz, in Rwanda, and this deep practice of as we open to the pain and bear witness to suffering, the arising of compassion and also the insight into our non-separation, that the movement of compassion comes as we become close to suffering, as we encounter it and feel it,

the heart naturally, responds just as when one hand is hurt, the other hand reaches out to soothe it. And so it's a beautiful example of bringing the values and the tools of contemplative practice into structural suffering, historical suffering, and catalyzing transformation that leads to action based in the principles of not knowing, bearing witness and, and compassionate action. Beautiful. A lot of people listening

might have that sense of still, why do I want to put a lot of attention to suffering? I mean, there's so much pain and, you know, it may be overwhelming. And one of the things that I've been really reflecting on a lot

in recent days has been how much the spiritual path in the West is constricted by individualism and it's not our fault. It's like it's the it's the waters we live in and basically what I mean by that for those listening is that we have a real focus on a separate self navigating for light through life and so most of our thinking has to do is very self-centered. It's I instead of away and in Asia where these the practices that

Arne and I you know very much resonate with the monastic were embedded in and intrinsically involved with the surrounding community, serve them in terms of health and education and, you know, embedded in society. And then the practices got transported to the West and we did our thing. You know, we took some of the, we plucked the contemplative practices, but we didn't really explore how much they're meant to be engaged. And so I guess, you know, I'd love to touch. talk a little more because when we when we talk about that generosity of sarvodhaya that everybody's

helping each other out or we we talk about bearing witness it presumes a willingness to open into the we and it's not anybody's fault but we're our fears keep us very hooked on feeling very much like i've got to take care of myself it's going to be too much for a self so maybe you could just talk about other ways you've seen contemplative practice open us from I to we. Yeah. Thank you. The whole path begins with the practice of generosity, right? Talk about the three pillars of the Buddhist teachings, Donna, Sela and Bavana, generosity, ethical, living, and then meditation and contemplation. I think that there's a very deep wisdom and elegance and starting with generosity because it does that very action it brings us out of

ourself when we when we give when we share we experience connection we experience belonging we feel like we're part of something we have a relationship and so um you know the dalai lama talks about enlightened self-interest right is the thing is very natural not only from a kind of cultural and historical perspective as you talk about this focus on the on the self and the individual but there's also a biological basis for it right and sort of in-group bias and protecting herself and our family and so the more we look at what is really in my best interest for myself for my family for my community we we start to see the benefit of of experiences like giving, sharing, celebrating.

And we touch into the deep satisfaction and freedom that comes from recognizing ourselves as embedded in something larger, the sense of we. And not just human, but the non-human world as well. And one of the things my son loves to be outside, He's about a year and a half now, and he loves to walk. It's his favorite thing to do. He's every day, walk, walk, walk.

He wants to go outside, walk. Even when he's upset, when he's upset, he wants to go outside in order to self-soothe. And it's just, it's fascinating and such a teacher to see how much of a companion and a playground and a wonder the world is to him. you know every tree every flower the stones anything he finds he stops he says hi hi he says hi to it he engages with it and explores with it so that that sense of we is there already just as we emerge you start to recognize that we are we are in this incredibly diverse vibrant world and so touching into experiences of connection also is another way to move from that eye to we not just

with humans, which are pretty complicated creatures. And there's a lot of good reason that people may, you know, shy away from being in relationship with others humans and be cautious about that. But how do you feel when you're in the park? How do you feel when you sit beneath a tree? How do you feel when you sit by a stream and listen to the water and see it moving? What does that do inside? And then how do we build on that awareness and recognize, you know, these friends that,

that we're intimately connected to in the natural world are actively being threatened and declining. Well, what you're saying has got such deep truth to it that if we take the moments we're happiest and really slow it down and sense what's going on here, there's a sense of enlarge belonging. Whether it's us talking here and feeling the goodness of the field that's here

and feeling those that are part of this, or whether it's belonging to a tree. I talk to trees all the time or belonging to awareness. You know, just that embeddedness in something larger. And the reason I'm so with you on gladdening the heart, and again, for those listening, it's any way of paying attention

that evokes a state of love or tenderness or awe or generosity is that when we gladden the heart, it dissolves the boundaries or the imprisonment, the armoring around the heart. And as soon as we gladden the heart, it's a direct experience that the eye that we were identified with is not all there is. That we're part of, waking up is realizing our belonging to a larger field of awareness. That's what it is. And gladdening the heart helps. And then the other thing that we find out is in the moments that we really feel compassion.

you know, that we really feel, and I'm talking about a very embodied, tender compassion, it actually feels good. When I get to crying, it's not like I'm wishing that away. It's like, oh, I'm kind of coming home to a larger tenderness. So I love what you're saying, that these ways of contemplating, these different ways of contemplating actually naturally open us up to who we are, which is not an I. It's a way. That's beautiful. Thank you.

I actually have a question to follow. I want to ask you something else, which is we're talking about these inquiries. A lot of them are, you know, individual, in our own mind. And I'm wondering how much you explore doing contemplative practices more in a collective environment, like Sotsong, which is, you know, waking up together. because again, the biggest illusion is that I'm here by myself trying to wake up these qualities. And it's really, we're waking up together. So I'm just love to hear you talk about that. Sure, sure.

Yeah, well, so each chapter, so there's two ways. Each chapter that explores a different quality has, at the end, there's, as you know, for meaning the book, there are these four different sections. So there's a section on reflection, which is something to think about and chew on. There's meditation instructions for something to meditate on. And then there's an action. And so the actions often involve other people, our role in family, neighborhood, community, or larger.

So that's one place that we start to, can explore, how are these qualities showing up in my life? How do I experience them with others? How do I practice them with others? The other way that I look at this specifically in the book is the books divided into four parts. We kind of go through different cycles of cultivating, gladdening the heart, steadying it,

and then letting go and moving towards freedom. One of the sections invites the lens of reflection on how are our friendships and relationships, teachers and embodiments of these qualities, recognizing that they're not just personal things. And so many of them are actually things we experience only embedded in relationship like empathy and compassion and generosity and ethics, but even other qualities that can be understood as more individual,

like concentration or resolve or, energy that we often learn about these with others and from others. Others embody them and inspire us, give us examples. And so looking through the lens of our relationships is a powerful way to strengthen the qualities. And I love that you're inviting and reminding all of us that, you know, reminding all of us that for millennia human beings have healed and celebrated and mourned and learned together in groups. It's how we evolved, right, coming together to honor the cycles of the seasons,

to honor the cycles of our life and the rituals of our life, to attend to ruptures in our hearts, in our communities. And so I think that that's something that those of us who teach these inner practices of meditation and contemplation really could stand to recollect and learn from more and bring into our communities, it's why gathering to meditate together is so powerful to do it with others. And we feel that support and strength. Yeah, well, I know how aligned we are on this one.

Because in the meditation world, it's so often people get this idea of sitting alone on a cushion or in a cage. And we spend most of our moments in some way engaged. And if I'm not here on some level truly listening, if I'm not here feeling my heart, if I'm not concentrating, keeping some steadiness, if I don't have any of the qualities, it's going to directly impact the quality of COVID. presence here. So it's an ongoing practice and you bring that alive so well. I feel like it's a book that really bridges beautifully. And I have a question that is on a lot of people's minds that right now we're in another particular moment where

the news of the world, whether it's politics in the United States, democracy, what's going on in the Middle East, it's so hard to listen to it and not identify with a side, not take sides, and on some level demonize, dehumanize. And it feels so crucial that there be both the inner and the relational work that wakes us up from dehumanizing. Because as you say, when we do humanize others, we disqualize others, we disqualize. disconnect from cover over our own humanity. So I'm wondering if you can talk about both the inner contemplation

and link it to a real story, maybe from your own life, where you found yourself being on a side and undoing that separation. Sure, yeah, absolutely. For me, there's two things I'll say first. One is it's important for me to, with the news, specifically, to have a certain clarity of purpose around the consumption because otherwise it takes over.

We lose our center and we just get pulled in. And so to know, we can't know what's enough information if we don't know why we're looking at it and to really frame our consumption of news and media to what's important to us. Why am I looking at this? and how does this connect to my own sense of purpose,

what do I need to know and how much and about what? That's one thing that helps me. And then the other is when there is that dehumanizing or that taking aside to understand it as being rooted in something that we care about, right? It's a strategy, it's a learned strategy, to advocate often fiercely for something that we we want to protect.

Well, I'm thinking of different examples and what's interesting is not to try to sort of paint an unrealistic picture here, but even with something as heartrending as what's happening in Palestine and Israel, I've noticed the training in meditation and in nonviolent communication for so many years not taking a side.

Beautiful. So share that with us because that would be really helpful. Yeah. Just feeling the deep, this very deep grief and heartbreak over the suffering. And, you know, for me, I'm Jewish. I have a very deep, strong felt connection with the trauma of East. European Jews. And so I understand the not only the terror and the deep pain of what happened on October 7th, but also this movement into the survival response. I understand that and I feel

it in my own body. And I can't not be moved by the unthinkable suffering. that the Palestinian people have been subjected to in the Israeli government's response. So many innocent people killed. And then there's also, so for me, like the pain of that situation and the ongoing pain of it has prompted, one, it prompted a lot of very deep investigation to want to understand more. about the history, about my relationship to it. And this is one way to move out of the dehumanization is to learn, to learn about one another,

to learn about the positions and the values and the needs and what's happening. And then the other is to try to begin to understand the field collectively within which this is happening. see why it's so hard to actually speak about it or say anything about it without it immediately fracturing into divisiveness and taking sides and being enraged or offended or hurt and to understand that it's a traumatized field where there's so much pain and so much at stake that it becomes very difficult to actually engage or speak through that field. And the last thing I'll say is that helps me with this particular situation is, again,

having the large view and reflecting on the bigger picture here and seeing what's happening, not just say in the Middle East, but in Ukraine, seeing just the insanity of war at this particular moment in history when we need to be looking together at how do we preserve and maintain the resources and life support systems for all of us on the planet. And so starting to have a broader perspective on these kinds of regional conflicts, seeing some of the larger conditions, not only historically, but also environmentallyally.

You know, you look at the civil war in Syria and how that was related to the drought and climate change. And seeing the forces that are unfolding in a different perspective, not just getting caught in the particulars, but the broader needs for all of us to learn how to either live on the planet together or perish on the planet together. And I think these kinds of conflicts are microcosms of the larger forces that are playing out and to me kind of call to this need, for as I was saying before,

this radical reorientation of our priorities, that if we don't find a way to live together, we're actively destroying the future for one another. Thank you for that. I feel like it's courageous to say anything. I really do. And maybe just share a few, because you have just share a few reflections and responses.

Yeah, please. It feels like everything is a microcosm in the sense that there's the heart. horror of what's going on in the particulars, in the deeper roots of it in greed, hatred, and delusion. And of course, trauma exacerbates that. So really getting that, it feels really important that if we're going to act or speak, that it not be perpetuating that by demonizing a side. Yeah. And it feels important that in our dedication to not demonizing a side, that doesn't mean we don't respond to what's urgent and immediate.

So the challenge is it's very easy to say, well, everyone is suffering. And in some way, neutralize the response when there's truly an asymmetry, you know. Absolutely. And which I know you understand. And so how do we recognize that there's, it's not to do with human badness. It's to do with human suffering. That when groups or individuals act in ways that are violent and harmful, they're hurting. And how to keep our hearts tender and yet know that we still as beings on the planet, part of our work is to say it has to stop. The killing has to stop. And whatever otherwise steps we feel, and to know that that doesn't mean we're pro this or pro that.

That means we're pro everybody. We're not shutting our hearts to anybody, but we're willing to be brave about taking unpopular stands anyway. Yeah. Because any call for action, like for me, it would be the call for, you know, immediate lasting ceasefire, the call everybody return all hostages, the call to stop funding Israel, which, you know, because, you know, I just wrote a check on April 15th and my tax dollars are going to bombs. It's like how to be clear on that level

and yet not make into an enemy are to demonize. anybody and that's that's um i feel like the work of the times right now in terms of social activism yeah yeah thank you there's important distinctions that you're offering here and you're just add one to to it this you know distinction between um that our efforts to say stay connected to our heart or not dehumanize not interfere with our capacity to respond right and to respond appropriately to the immediate suffering and acknowledge the asymmetry and the urgency. I think also important in one of the things that I see happening is that I know you also feel aligned with is that movement or even the value, and we're not able to get there,

that value for wanting to stay connected to the heart or to compassion also not prevent us from speaking out against and condemning harm. That there's a difference between staying connected to compassion and humanity and justifying harm. So, you know, I just came across a fabulous article by George Lakey talking about how do we talk about what's happening here on college campuses and, you know, bringing together different sides. And, you know, lists like seven points that these student groups were able to agree on just as kind of fundamental non-controversial agreements that what Hamas did on October 7th was morally reprehensible.

You know, that is that killing civilians anywhere is morally wrong, that Israel's response and the loss of Palestinian life has been morally abhorrent. And so there are these distinctions here in the heart between the possibility for connection and compassion can coexist and actually arise from the presence of discernment. Yes. And acknowledging this is not okay, even as we can acknowledge the humanity of everyone. I love that because that to me again, that is the bodega. Satva aspiration and work, which is that we keep on cherishing each other, everybody. We cherish everybody. We see the basic goodness in everybody, and we know that some beings are caught in that

trance you described, that torques things, and when we've been traumatized, it gets very torqued. And then we act in ways that aren't healthy. So how to untorget. How to untorpe it. And seeing the humanity with everyone doesn't mean that. that we like everyone. Right.

That we're going to be friends with everyone. But it means that one, we don't close our hearts and actually harm ourselves through harboring hatred. And that we recognize that our future is intertwined. That on some level we're connected and that survival is linked. That's exactly right. It's almost like if I believe the beliefs that somebody is bad, or a group is bad and then my heart feels aversion, that's what I'm seating when I act and talk. That's that same aversion and hatred and dividedness.

So it really, how our heart is really impacts the power of our actions and how we communicate. And one of the things that you have just been one of the standout teachers in terms of human communication. And for those that don't know, Orrin wrote his first book, is Say What You Mean, and it's fantastic. So my next question, I'm looking at the time because I know we don't have too much, is, okay, say a family member or a friend has the different politics or views about those or whatever. What helps? And can maybe share a story that will help us know what can help to bridge divine?

or at least to move in the direction of bridging divides. Yeah. I think timing is such an important factor. It's one of the things that I, is coming to mind as we're having this timing and context, as we're having this conversation, you and I here in the United States and talking about the value of empathy and, you know,

not dehumanizing. And just first on a broader conceptual level, just recognizing that there's time in a place, for empathy and for and that particularly with this conflict those who you know have have lost family members or um is it the conditions might not be present yet for empathy and looking to the other side and to honor that to honor the um the need for um just empathy for the pain that that that people are in and so In terms of, you know, family and views, different views,

I think one thing that's really important is being aware of our purpose in a conversation. And, you know, it's not our role to change our family members' views. You know, I don't see it necessarily as our job to do that. So, you know, I, my mom, we were together last year at some point, and the topic came up. And she said, I can't talk about that. It's, you know, it's after dinner. I don't talk about that in the evening because otherwise I have nightmares. And we have, I think, slightly different views, but just being able to honor that,

being able to honor her preference and say, yeah, I get that. I get that. And so how can we have these conversations in ways that are more useful? So being clear about our aim, what are we focused on? Are we, and why am I having this conversation? Am I looking for empathy myself, wanting to be heard?

Am I wanting to build a relationship with this person to deepen some understanding? Am I trying to try to take up? change their mind. If so, what's going to actually support that is trying to understand things from their point of view initially to try to hear what's underneath where they're coming from. So I had a conversation with a student. I was very upset initially with some of my empathy for Palestinians, an Israeli student. And, you know, I just listened and I validated her experience to just really honor the pain, the fear, the isolation, the deep need for empathy.

Because I recognize that we weren't going to get anywhere or she wasn't going to be able to hear me or anything about where I was coming from until she felt heard because the level of pain was too high. So, I mean, these are some of the principles being clear about why you're having the conversation, aligning your intention with that. And then really looking for, what's the value behind what this person is saying? You don't have to agree with the position or the view

to honor and acknowledge the essence of what they are advocating for or supporting. What is the deeper human value that you can actually get behind? It's there if you know how to look. look for it. And that can start to create at least some small area of common ground where we can say, yes, okay, I value that too, even though I disagree with how you want to get there, what you think we should do about it. These are life-changing reminders if we take them to heart and practice them,

you know, because it goes against our conditioning because we're so attached to our views and we want, you know, we're rehearsing what we're going to say and, you know, we want to be right. So there's all these attachments. And to be able to do just the practices you were naming, it creates a lot more spaciousness and flexibility in our heart and spirit. Yeah. It's a gift to ourselves and it serves people connecting. So I do want to do a shout out for both books. Oh, thank you. Say what you mean, really.

A lot of people had a really big impact. And yeah, so we're coming to the end. And I want to, I guess, ask you how if you feel hopeful and what gives you hope? Because I ask everybody that. Sure. I guess it depends on how we define hope, right? I have tremendous faith in the power of action. It's the only thing that brings about change.

And so I feel hopeful in that way. I feel hopeful that more and more of us are aware and waking up to the many different layers of crises that we're facing and recognizing the need for action. And I have, I do have great faith that when we get involved, we can do great things. Yeah. And I have tremendous faith in the resilience of life in general. You know, the life force that moves through us is the same life force that moves through the

trees and the wind and hurricanes and storms and we're part of everything. We're part of everything. And one of the things our practice can do is to help us, as you said, move from that eye to the we and feel what is life asking of me. What is life asking of us? And then again, our action is coming not from a sense of being an isolated individual trying to push a rock up a hill, but actually being a part of life tending to life. And the need to gladden the heart is so much a part of that, the need to tend to our well-being. Maybe I'll just end with one story. Some friend was over for dinner, and we were, this was early in the Middle East conflict,

and we were watching some of the news and the reports and lectures about what was happening. And it was just this tremendous overwhelming grief. And our son was running up and down the living room, throwing his hands in the air, screaming and laughing and joyful. And my friend turned to us and said, there's no place else I could watch this right now than right here.

And it was just such this beautiful representation of, yes, it's like we need that laughter and joy and celebration of just being alive in the moment to have the space to acknowledge and be in connection with the deep pain that's also present. I love that you're ending that way because a lot of people feel guilty and like they shouldn't be shavering moment and gladdening the heart. and we cannot open to the sorrows without touching the joys. We can't. So that's really, thank you, dear. Yeah. Yeah. I'm going to have your website posted with this.

Is there anything else in terms of how people can learn about your work and the books? Oh, sure. I post on social media periodically at Orange, A. Sopher, and then, yeah, finding out more about my work. I do have a newsletter. So if folks like listening and staying in touch, it's a good way to hear what's happening. And all of that information is on my website too. Thanks so much for having me on the show, Tara. Thank you. I'm feeling us all waking up together in this one. So blessings.