Tara Brach - Resilience and Wisdom in an Uncertain World (Conversation: Tara & Trisha Stotler, IMCW)

Episode Date: January 20, 2022

Resilience and Wisdom in an Uncertain World (Conversation: Tara & Trisha Stotler, IMCW) - The Buddhist scriptures describe a mind that "no longer shakes, in a world where everything is shaking." Our times are deeply stressful and troubling, and we need individual and collective ways of responding from our deepest understanding and care. In this interview, Tara reflects on the perspectives and ways of practicing that allow us to engage in relationships and our larger society from an awake compassionate heart.

Greetings. We offer these podcasts freely, and your support really makes a difference. To make a donation, please visit tarabrock.com. This is an interview I did with the executive director of IMCW, Tricia Stottler. We are so honored to be talking with IMCW's founding teacher and beloved friend Tara Brock, when the opportunity to talk with you today came around, of course, it was like, well, we have so many questions. How are we going to possibly narrow it down to, you know, an hour and 15 minutes? And so we've been kind of looking at some of the themes that are coming up in some of our classes, you know, like kind of taking the temperature out there in the world. What's really alive for people right now that we might want to address?

And I just came off teaching the IMCW New Year's retreat, which was really wonderful. And I also just taught this morning before this. So, you know, I let my students this morning know that we were going to be together. And they're like, oh, ask her this, ask her that. So trying to distill. And what really, there are themes, actually. There's kind of a common denominator to a lot of what folks are wanting to know and get your take on. I feel like my distillation comes down to how we're in this, like the shock has worn off in terms of the COVID disruptions and the upheaval in the world in our country.

I guess worn off isn't really the right word, but we've acclimated a little bit internally. And yet we're really tired. And it hasn't come back together again, right? So we've, this dissolution has taken place. We've been in the stew for a while, but like no ground has come back underneath our feet. So it's the sense of groundlessness and uncertainty, which of course is the whole of what we practice with and why we sit on this cushion regularly, you know, so that we can cultivate this heart and mind that can handle what comes our way. but gosh, when the rubber hits the road and there's no ground, groundlessness is a wonderful concept. And then reality hits and it's like, gosh, do we try to get back to a new normal?

Do we try to get some ground under our feet? So I was just wondering just, you know, out of the gate if you have any thoughts on that very small and easy question. Yeah, just a pesky little thing going on. Yeah, but I think you're naming it. You know, there's a sense that uncertainty's the thing we most fight against. You know, this brain is a predicting machine, and the survival brain just wants to kind of know what the threats are around the corner and prepare for them.

And when we're not able to do much predicting, it's scary and it's exhausting because, anything other than relaxing into groundlessness really leaves us wiped out. And I think that we're all still kind of buzzing on the something wrong feeling and we're waiting. There's kind of a sense of a collective waiting, you know, that we're on hold. I don't know. I don't, I'm looking at all of you now if you can relate to that, that sense of relating for, we're waiting for, we're waiting for yeah life to to come back to something familiar and that right now is not real life. You know, this is a pause for station identification and there's no identification.

But you're right, we're ground-seeking creatures. And so what happens is there's other habits that then get triggered when we're in that anxious but not an unsettled place. And often it's a lot of thinking. obsessive worry and we create busyness or else are really busy, but we get lost in it. We kind of speed up. We overconsume. We get more into conflict.

There's more tension in relationships, you know. And sometimes we just go on autopilot so we don't have to feel that angst. So in effect, we're just, we're waiting for life. And here's what's sad for sure that this is what gets me. is these life moments we don't know how many we have you know it's like life is precious and when we live as if we're waiting for something um we're missing out we're not bringing our whole heart our wholeheartedness to what's here and um you know there's here in the dc area this this snow which is you know of course an inconvenience and a horror for parents who are already struggling

with everything about dealing with, you know, kids at home and so on. But there's also a beauty and a magic. It's been a beautiful snow, you know, but we kind of, somebody said it's our winter wonder advisory, you know, but we don't, we don't, we miss the life that's here. There's a friend of, I don't, you might know him, I'm not sure, but a friend of ours doing the teacher training. And his wife got diagnosed with terminal cancer over this period and with very little time left. And it turns out she she had through her adult year, she was an amazing packer. In other words, she could fit anything into whatever box they had. And they decided together that this is the box that life was giving them, just this amount of time. And they intended to fit every

bit into it, every moment of loving and appreciating and gratitude. And every moment of loving and appreciating and just not waste it. And I just think of how brave that is when we're just in these circumstances and how do we really live this? And part of the challenge is that part of living this means that we have to really get in touch with what's painful and what's going on, really facing a lot of losses. You know, I'm aware, I don't know about you, but I haven't. directly lost anyone to COVID. But during this period, I have several very dear people who are dying, they're seriously Ellen dying. And I have many, many friends who have lost friends. And so part of living the moment is just really opening to how it is. And I'll share one

example that really inspired me about that was one man who during the pandemic and it's really hard to get sick with other things because of, you know, going into hospitals and stuff. And he had, he described, he wrote to me, said he had very aggressive prostate cancer. So huge dread. He's a dad of young kids, you know, he was 51 or something, just a fear of losing everything. He held dear. and he listened to a podcast and where I shared my own experience being in a hospital and facing real deep uncertainty and that the words that helped me were to meet our edge and soften

just to keep meeting our edge and softening and that by doing that we become that spacious presence that has room that compassionate presence that has room and so he just let that be his practice and it brought him to a place of real curiosity and presence, a real loving presence. And then just a few weeks ago, his son was diagnosed with melanoma. This is a young boy. And so, I mean, just really, so what they did, they revisited the book, many of you know, where the wild things are. And if you remember, and this is his, his son, instead of walling off fear, took the guidance from that book where, and here's a quote, which is where you tame the wild things with this magic trick of staring into their yellow

eyes without blinking. And that's what his son took on as his practice. And I'm sharing these things because adversity is really hard. Uncertainty is really hard. hard and yet if we are willing to deepen our attention, this is what grows us. We know this through the history of the species that, in all species that those that in adversity adapt get stronger. So it's an invitation and an opportunity and it's a really hard time. Yeah. Yeah, no, for sure. And And, you know, as you're talking about ways to work with uncertainty, skillful ways to work with uncertainty and groundlessness, the thought crosses my mind. What's the alternative? I mean, this is, you know, sort of like often, you know, people who have a serious disease or have, you know,

something terrible happens in their life and people say, oh, you're so strong. Often the response is, well, what's the alternative? It's like it's not so much being strong as it is meeting real meeting life on its own terms as it's arising. And I think that, you know, many people on this call probably have a practice of some kind and that's that it feels like that's what we're cultivating in the practice. Otherwise, what are we doing this for? If not to learn how to meet those edges. And, you know, we know the alternative leads to suffering for ourselves and others. And yet the letting go into groundlessness feels so edgy, feels so uncomfortable.

So yeah, yeah, it's this, I don't know. It's a day to day for me anyway. You know, it's a moment to moment that what there is to meet keeps changing. And so I don't know if there can be some kind of relaxing into that flow. Yeah. I think that sometimes folks feel that if they relax into it, it's the same as accepting it. I mean, that accepting it, I should say, is the same as condoning it or saying, I don't care about that this is happening. I'm going to relax or that somehow they're not doing their duty to, you know, to stand up or so there's so much nuance to it, you know? It's true. We definitely translate. translate relaxing as either passivity that we shouldn't be doing or else, there's a sense that if we're not vigilant, something really bad will happen. So we're pretty reluctant to give up our obsessing minds. And, you know, when you say, what's the alternative? That is totally true from an enlightened perspective. It's like we either are at war with reality or we open to reality. And most of us have very subtle or not so subtle ways of going into trance as the alternative.

So really, I think the invitation is, can we take an honest look at the ways we go into trance? Can we let that be part of the intention? That, oh, okay. So how am I distracting myself? How am I, what is it I'm unwilling to feel? What am I not willing to be with? But the other piece that's helped me is really getting what frees us. And if we ask, if each of you ask yourself the question, you know, if you scan your life, just to identify three events that most shaped you.

And if, you know, you don't have to do it right now or journal on it right now, but just to think about that. And, you know, were they happy, joyful events? Are, were they some great loss or failure? And I know for myself, I think about that and I think, well, I was very shaped by an event I've written about, you know, being betrayed by a spiritual teacher. I was very shaped by, you know, getting very sick for five, six years and not thinking I was going to get well again. You know, those are things that force.

me to take refuge in a deeper way in truth and in love. So if we look at these times right now as just that, that these times are times that can really shape us. And I often think in a really kind of evolutionary way that, you know, creatures have to adapt or else they don't pass their genes down. And right now, for the human species, our adaptation is a raising of contrast. That's the only adaptation that can make a difference. We have to wake up our consciousness, which is what we're all doing. We have to directly wake up this capacity to sense our connection with each other, to love each other more fully, you know, to collaborate, you know, across the globe.

You know, I have no idea whether or not we'll make it or not as a species through what's going on, but I know the pathway is raising consciousness. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's a kind of good segue into another kind of thing that keeps arising is around. Just in my class this morning, someone asked the question around when people have really opposing views. So this can be really personal for us.

Like, and sometimes in our family, we've just come out of the holiday season. And I'm sure that many of you were gathered with people with conflicting views and how to distinguish. Someone said, so the question in my class this morning was, well, how do I maintain my integrity around my views? So he had views about gun control. And I can't let go of those views because we were talking about, like, loosening our views. He's like, I can't, that's like a deeply held conviction that my practice has helped. helped me to come to, so how do I be with someone who thinks the opposite of me? And so we had a discussion and I, this is one of the things I said, I'll ask Tara about that.

Just around, because my take was like, well, gosh, we have to talk to each other. We have to be willing to be open to understanding someone else's conditions that lead them to where they are or we won't survive. We can't survive this kind of divisiveness when we take a stand and are unwilling to be changed in the heart, if not in the mind, by what someone else is saying to us. Or we have to care. That was the thing. It was like, oh, we can't just give lip service to saying, you know, I'd like to hear your thoughts on this or what really, what's most meaningful for you. about your conviction around guns or something. You know, I want to, we have to be willing to understand

and not come with an agenda. And that's where I think people feel like, oh, then I'm giving up my, then my flag is not planted anymore. And then am I, am I like gonna be in this current where I can be swept away by things I don't believe in? There's a fear around letting go of our convictions, enough to meet the other person in the middle,

in the heart space middle, at least. So, yes. I'll share the recording of this. Part of the problem with strong views is that we end up hating, our disliking, our thinking bad things about those that disagree, and that creates separation. And so I've had many, many people say, well, I've got, you know, this person who's close in to me, who, you know, voted this way and I'm voting this way, or this person is anti-vax and I'm, you know, or whatever. And I can't let go of my judgment of them. So it's not only I can't let go of my view. It's like I can't let go of my aversion towards them. And one guy said, you know, his brother and him had a major split after Trump became president.

And they couldn't talk to each other. I mean, it was really, these are two brothers. And this is very common. This is not an uncommon story. And finally, you know, about a year ago, he told me, he said, I just want to love my brother. And so we explored, you know, what would make that possible for him to have. And as he explored it, and this is what's important, I think when we get caught in aversive judgment towards others for having different beliefs than us, we need to make what I call

the U-turn and come back and say, okay, what's going on in that aversion in me? What's happening? And for him, the aversion was this fear that what his brother's beliefs in would translate to huge violence and suffering. And then when he kept on digging, you know, okay, so that's what's there and there fear about violence and suffering. And under the fear was that he cared, that he cared about our world and he cared about life. And so if he could from that place of caring about life, then re-examine, you know, okay, what can I do? How can I be on the planet? It becomes so clear, Tricia, from that place that hatred only breeds more hatred. and for so many of us we're angry or hateful towards others because they're angry and hateful.

And so it became really important to him because he's a dedicated practitioner. Okay, this is it. You know, it's like I can want, it's fine to have the discerning wisdom that sees that another person's views can cause harm. We're not saying to lose that. But there's a real difference between discerning wisdom. and averse of judgment. And this is the difference we really need to learn each of us by making that you turn. And for him what it did was he got clearer on what he cared about.

He just as much saw the dangers in the views. But then he saw his brother as having views that were harmful but not as badness. It's like there's a difference between a person with harmful views and a bad person. and he could then see again the goodness that he loved in them. And it makes me think of another friend of mine who lives in a college town that is surrounded by a rural area. The college town's more liberal, but the rural area isn't. And she has many, many neighbors who are anti-mask, anti-vax, and she's immunocompromised, and it's really affected even when things.

are lighter out there. She can't circulate. So she's felt a lot of anger and rage, kind of being imprisoned, the effect of other people's views. And she has neighbors who have very different views, but over time she's gotten to know, and she described one neighbor completely opposite end of the spectrum in terms of beliefs and politics. And this guy, raised four beautiful kids. He's a most generous guy in the world. Anybody that needs help, he absolutely drops his life to step in and help them. She can't not see his goodness. So she said to me, Tara, I can't close my heart to him. And what I think is powerful about that, is that there's a way in which waking up means we open to this paradox where we keep our

heart open to the essential value and goodness and beings and at the same time have the discerning wisdom to see how fear, ignorance or whatever can create so much suffering. And we have to be able to have hearts that are big enough for both. Yeah. And what the key piece that I heard you say that because I was thinking along with you in my own life that lightened it for me was around the person with the judgment getting in touch with what was really true for them, which was their deep care and concern. And so that if that's the place that we can we can live from, instead of, you know, the judgments may come and go. but that if we can stay in touch with that kind of deepest aspiration and the why of why we hold the beliefs we do,

it might soften us enough to see that other people have that same heart. You know, it could be the common ground that we make the connection through. It's the necessary common ground. It's actually the, I think of what you just said as that's the next step. That's the hope. And Brian Stevenson, who's one of my heroes in this world, he uses, the word proximate, that we live in our kind of cocoons, our siloed groups, and most of us have very minimal contact with people that are very, very different from us. And as it gets more extreme,

it's really demonizing others. I mean, I have never lived in a time where people from different parties really consider people from the other party as less moral. or ethical, you know. And so he basically says you have to get proximate. You have to actually get to know other people to do just what you said. See that there are always going to be common places of caring. And when you can get that, then you have a place to build from. It's like Desmond Tutu who, you know, just bless him. And he's been such an amazing guide for so many. He says, if you want peace, don't talk to your friends, talk to your enemies. We need to do it.

And it's a stretch, but we have to do it. Yeah. Yeah, that does definitely feel like the next step. And for me, it's felt like, well, we did try the other way. We got exhausted by it and we see what the fruits of that have come to. We just look at, you know, January 6th and we can see the fruits of this conflict. And not just in political views or anything, but we see the fruits of things arising in our larger culture, in our ecology, in the environment, and all of these, you know, social justice issues and things. It's come to there, right?

Like, we can really see it very clearly now. It's not an abstraction anymore. What doing it the other way does. That's sort of like along the lines of what's the alternative. So now it's like getting into that zone of having to be more approximate or relational with people. And I think that people who have a practice who meditate certainly not just in the Buddhist tradition, but anyone with a deep contemplative practice that has compassion and interconnectedness as its base. that's such a gift to have those tools to fall back on or to rest in when you're tired.

You know, not that we have to keep fighting, but just to kind of rest in that practice so that we can move forward because we've got, you know, there's a big conversation going on in probably the world, but definitely the United States. I'd say in the last few years even around whether our practice. is directly linked, is the Dharma linked to democracy? Or is the Dharma linked to social justice? Or how does the, what does the Dharma have to do with, you know, global climate change? Like, is it worth it to bring these things into our practice? Or is that getting political or that's not what the Buddha meant?

Or do you know what I mean? It's a hot topic right now. And so, yeah, any thoughts on? Yeah, any thoughts on, I'm sure you have some thoughts on that. I'm passionate on it, actually. I mean, it's hard for me to imagine a spiritual path that separates out our inner work of waking up our hearts and minds for how we walk on this earth and in this world. It just, it's kind of unfathomable.

And I feel like it's been so beautifully modeled that the togetherness, of inner and outer by whether it's Gandhi or Martin Luther King Jr. or Desmond Tutu, you know, that it's been so beautifully modeled that the love we're waking up inside gets expressed. And, you know, if you think of it this way, if you were at war with yourself, a Dharma person would say, well, you need to learn to, you know, see what's going on and embrace your interreligious. life. And if you're at war with your partner, then you see what's going on between you and you bring that listening to the relationship. And why wouldn't it naturally extend to the wider society when we see the different ways that in our wider society that people are either being

violated or denied their rights due to their sexual orientation or gender identity or their race or religion, doesn't the Dharma guide us out of compassion to engage as best we can with that reality too? And it's part of reality. So, yeah, when I examine the pushback, because I get it, I get it. Every time I talk about the suffering of racism or the suffering of non-human animals, are in any, any of these areas, there are people that will email me saying I was coming to get to touch some calm and peace. And you know, you're bringing up divisive issues. And I think there's a real misunderstanding that spiritual practice is about calming ourselves down.

It certainly has that capacity. Right. But not by avoiding reality. It's really by, opening our entire heart and being bravely to reality. Yeah. Yeah. And it kind of strikes me that in many religions, there's, or spiritual paths, there is a, there are teachings on turn the other cheek or live without preferences.

You know, there are teachings that can be used to spiritually bypass. But there is also always teachings about the compassion teachings and the, you know, treat everyone like you want to be treated. Like those are, they can seem to be kind of opposite. And yet it's kind of how we are applying them. And that the fallback has to be the heart practice, has to be like the liberative quality.

Like how do you feel when you, when you, you know, totally ignore a whole segment of society or nature or whatever, where does that lead to? So now it's such an interesting conversation. I love to hear, you know, folks from the whole spectrum kind of talk about this because it's, I think we all learn

about how the Dharma actually is. it's inextricably linked to everything we do. So yeah, and especially when we're talking about the suffering of others. That's fine. Human or non-human or planetary. So yeah. Yeah. You know, so we're going to get to questions in a minute, but just one last theme that seems to be out there a lot is the relationship to

faith or trust or hope. I sometimes they can be sometimes used interchangeably, sometimes not, in the Buddhist tradition because we don't, it's coming out now more as a topic. I think Sharon Salisbury has a book even coming out about it, about faith. But it seems to me like there has to be a trust in something unseen. If we're only relying on our, you know, senses and these brains to figure it out. I don't know. I don't know what's going to happen. Seems like there is an element of faith that we might just call trust in the practice or trust in the order of things. But I don't know if that plays a role in your own, how that unfolds in your own life in working with these practices. Yeah. Yeah. And I love this inquiry. You know, what

what can we trust or what can we have faith in and what does it really mean to hope? You know, I just feel like these are actually very alive right now because so many people are feeling so discouraged. And I do want to name that that it's hard. I mean, it's hard to face what's going on to this earth and know how deep the danger is, are, yeah, face. the degree of suffering and, you know, I'm just so aware that unprocessed fear means violence and more suffering and it's rampant right now. So it's hard to feel, to know all that and to say, well, what can I have faith and what can I trust? And my mantra almost, I would I would call it a mantra. The reminder I most use for myself when I feel like I've gotten small is to trust the gold.

It's to trust the inherent goodness of awareness and love. And it's really pointing to, it points to what you were talking about, that no matter what the coverings look like, you know, what the shapes of the waves look like, there is a field of, a field of loving awareness that's what I am and you are and we all are. It's our source. And if we trust that, we can go to our deaths and we can experience losses and we'll grieve like all humans grieve, but we'll be okay. And if we can trust that, we actually live from it more. And I feel like, you know, the Buddha talked about this in a different way. You know, he, this is one of the quotes that I really love is if it were not possible to free the heart from entanglement, I would not

teach you to do so. And just because it's possible to free the heart, there are the teachings of the Dharma of liberation. So it's just like one of my favorite quotes. This wouldn't exist if it weren't possible, this pathway of freeing ourselves. And it's possible because we already are the love we long for. It's already the truth. The awareness that's listening right now is the same awareness in all of us and it's here. And it's vast and it's formless and it's timeless. And so there's trusting in that. We're trusting in and this is where hope comes in. We can only hope for really our potential to manifest who we are. That's what hope is, that we're hopeful that we can manifest that love and bring it fully out,

that we can manifest that wisdom. Let me read you. I wrote a note to myself. I want to read you this. This is a Barbara Kingsolver. And she says this, here's what I've decided. The very least you can do in your life is figure out what you hope for. And the most you can do is live inside that hope, not admire it from a distance, but live right in it under its roof.

What I want is so simple, I almost can't say it. Elementary kindness. So what it says is that hope has kind of two qualities. And one is that it's not about some abstract thing. It's really about the hope that we can manifest the potential that's here, right here. And the second quality is that we put energy towards that, that we live inside it. And it has the quality of heart. It's what we really care about.

It's kindness. Yes. Yeah. That's worthy of a pause to let that sink in. No. Thank you. So as we kind of move into taking some questions, thank you for everyone who's submitted a question. We'll get to as many of them as we can.

So the first question I have is from is it Di? And the last name is Bly. So I'm going to read, go ahead and read the question. we'll let Tara come on screen and answer it. Hi, Dai. Why is it so hard in relation to climate emergency and the immense suffering already taking place to start a conversation in any Sanga

about civil resistance or activism, especially given that our compassion, our refuge in the Dharma, is all about individual freedom from suffering? Did I read that correctly, Dyes, or anything you'd change about that? Yes, I think you missed the key thing, which was as, especially given that our compassion, our refuge in the Dharma is as here, until Tara's last comment, all about freedom from individual suffering. And I just give a little bit of background. I've been fortunate in working with the work that reconnects, which is Joanna Macy's, marvelous teaching.

And I've also been blocking motorways with insulate Britain throughout the autumn and I'm imminently expecting prison sentences. And I sort of imagined, as there are three, four of us in the Dharma out of 150 activists, that we would be able to speak in Sangha's about the extension of compassion, particularly to the immense suffering that's already happening in the global south. And so far, we have either had no audience or we have had an embarrassed silence. So I'm I really I've I live in a way that tries very hard I try very hard to be compassionate and understanding about why this topic is so hard for people to think about, but I simply don't understand why it isn't even possible

to begin a conversation. Let me ask you, Dai, what you're, if you sent into it, what do you imagine is going on? What I imagine is going on is that people are frightened, full of fear when they begin to look at the reality of what is happening. That's my first imagining. The second imagining is that people feel essentially powerless that as individuals they can't do anything about what does require, after all, our leaders, to start behaving compassionately and together. So I think fear and powerlessness is what I imagine.

I'm encountering. Yeah, well, thank you for that, by the way, relating this with that good mind of yours. Yeah, I would only add that the more people are preoccupied with getting through the day themselves, it's the hierarchy of needs, the less they're able to respond to the larger swaths of suffering. And I think all three are pretty charged up right now.

The issues seem horrific. I see it the most, you know, I mean, it's amazing that we've been not looking climate change in the face for all for so long. It seems so big to people, like, what can I do? And when you say the global South, it's, oh my gosh. I mean, it's like if you sense the world in your heart, there's this huge part of your being that is just struggling in a horrific way, you know? It's like, So I think those three things are real. And what feels important is, well, how do we respond to that? And I think there is a growing response from the Dharma community.

It's just slow. And that we hold hands where it does exist and we deepen it and we really remind each other that we're in it together. Because it's easy to lose heart if we think that we're the only. only one, you know, out, you know, waving our arms for something. And there are a growing number of people who really care and who are acting. So I think we have to find those people and invite others in. The other thing I would say is that there actually are things people can do that don't take them necessarily into other worlds and have them ignore their own lives. And I think that's part of what we need to be able to explore together.

Like, how can we each in our own way, in some way, act in a way that can make a different? We can eat differently. I mean, you know, it's like we can just shift our diet a little bit. You know, I just gave a talk on, actually it hasn't come out yet, it'll come out soon, on, you know, the animal cruelty and our and our gloat. and our environment, and it all links into the global poor and those that are most suffering. And if each of us, I'm not saying everybody go vegan, those that want to and can grate, but if each of us leaned more towards plant-based eating, that is something we can do.

What I'm saying is there are things we can do that are more incremental. So, yeah, so I'm going to pause here and say, how is it? this landing and any other thoughts? Well, as you might imagine, I'm fairly deeply acquainted with the science of climate change. And Sir David King, who's a very eminent scientist, says we have three to four years to determine the future of humanity. Now, I wish that he would say to determine the future of humanity and all living beings. but he doesn't say that.

And so for me, the notion of individual lifestyle is pretty dangerous because it creates the illusion of action. So we have in our activism, we have a strong belief in not judging. So for example, if people are taking a plane to do something like that or eating meat twice a week or whatever it is, then what we're interested in, what we want them to do is civilly resist. What we want them to do is risk going to prison.

What we want them to do is be with us in the only form of action. I was interested that you quoted Gandhi and Martin Luther King and Desmond Tutu, because so do we. We use their wise. compassion in many of the meetings that we hold. And in many of the meetings that we hold, people join us. It happened just last night. But not in the sangas. Not in the sangas. I hear the difference you're making between individual action and collective action that is stepping forward when there's so little time. And I'm just holding them both right here in my

heart because I get it. And I want to thank you for for being here and sharing that. Yeah. Thank you. Hi. We have another question from Sadiqqshan. And I'll paraphrase it, but then he can he can flesh it out a little bit more. Hi, Sadiere. Thank you. How do we push back on bad views, which are often propagated as the means to wield power. Yeah. Yeah, Sadiar, could you, do you want to flesh that out a little bit for Tara? Thank you. Yeah, I would try to.

Thank you, Tara, for, you know, giving this opportunity. You know, mainly, you know, it was like years ago when I was listening to some of the Dharma talks by Stephen Batchel. I think I'm excited to meet him next week, next month as well. So this is where I learned that, you know, when during the time of Buddha, he himself was like very much active in the then current political, you know, activities. As I learned, like, you know, the Buddha has been involved in, you know, resolving conflicts between the people. And his main intention was to lessen the suffering of the people, even if it is like talking between the kings or he is doing the some kind of acting as a bridge between two powers. So but in the contemporary Buddhism,

I wouldn't claim myself as a Buddhist, but I'm definitely intrigued and interested in it. What I see is more like a personal salvation and liberation, which is in by no means, it's less than anything else, but I would see that, you know, I think we kind of lost the the original intention of the Buddha where he actually acted in terms of reducing the suffering. I think my question is more like directly linked to what the previous person was talking about. That collective activism, I think that is kind of lost on Buddhism. So I was just wondering what is your thoughts on that. Thank you.

I agree with you. I mean, I do. I feel like, especially in the West, when Buddhism was first brought here, it was brought into a very individualistic, capitalistic, hierarchical, you know, hierarchical, you know, male dominance. And not all that's different from the East, but the individualistic is. and that the waking up is that who we are is not who we think we are. We're not, if our identity is with this individual body mind and its salvation, we're on the wrong track. The true salvation is waking up to realize our collective awareness, the love that is really our source and act on behalf of the whole, you know, the greater good.

So I'm agreeing with you. And I see that as the trajectory that's happening and it's slow. And as Dee points out, it may be too slow for the human species and other non-human animals to make it. But we have to just keep on caring and trying. Thank you so much, Sidiya. Thank you, Sadiere. Yeah, so this theme around the individual and the collective is, such an interesting one that yeah that is also a hot topic and as you're saying about how we in

the west have taken the Dharma and made it a like kind of made it adapted it to our you know dominant culture west pull yourself up by your bootstraps and everything's going to be fine kind of society and how to i think it's one of the turnings that's happening right now is toward a more collective. So yeah, thank you for those questions. So Jill has a question for you, Tara. If we can bring her up on screen as a fourth grade elementary public school teacher, first of all, pause. And you're surrounded by multiple challenges and multiple themes. So your question is to how to, how do you can be a role model in an open-hearted comparison. without preaching and directly instructing to not only my students, but fellow teachers and parents as well.

Yeah, so I'm going to turn that over to you to flesh out a little bit more. Thank you, Jill. I've been doing this so many times. I'm always bad at me. Anyway, thank you both. This has been amazing. And you've hit on so many things already as I was typing my question. I'm like, ah, okay, yes, yes.

I'm in a classroom in Fredericksburg, Virginia, and I have 28 students. And I have to say, I've initially went back to teaching. After 30 years of being out of the classroom, I'm just now returning. So it is a different world. So exciting, so daunting in many ways. but what I'm hearing from the collective, I think, is the children. And if we can hit this population starting, this is what needs to be happening. I know they're still young, but they aren't covered over by all of the,

there's the things that I am role modeling in class without doing direct teaching they're saying to me they we have a moment of we call it catching our breath every morning in our morning meetings and my students are saying so many of the things that I've heard in Dharma talks and and these are fourth graders these are 10 year olds the wisdom from 10-year-olds is amazing. How do I keep them from getting covered over with all of the minutia and how do I keep them from the identity of the individual and keep a collective sense? That's my question for you. Wow. It's a beautiful question. It feels to me like if we could just center on this,

that's where the hope is. And I often think of the Dalai Lama saying, you know, if every eight-year-old could learn to meditate or be mindful, there wouldn't be war in the next generation. You know, and what I'm hearing from you is that their consciousness really is fresh and open and there is care there and how do you nurture it. So I'll name a few things that come to mind, but I first want to ask you, what have you found so far

is helpful in nurturing it from your end. What are you already exploring on this? I use Headspace on a daily basis with my kids. And as I said, we start off with a catching your breath. I don't talk about meditation. I don't. I've given my children the option to participate or not. It's a silent moment, you know, and it's five minutes.

and we listen to Andy Puttycom, and I just say, we're going to have Andy come in and share with us, or, you know, we've used some different teachers, but the kids are very receptive to it. And the messages, I started using just children kind of centered, but I switched over to the regular everyday messages that Andy Puttycombe shares. And the kids are just, they eat it up. They have amazing contributions. and I'm saying high to low, every across my student body. It's, it's, my kids are respectful and they see the importance.

So I am doing my very best to try and keep a sense of the direction being. You guys are in a year where we are building you as, whole people. This is, so yes, all of the learning your math and learning, this is all important, but it's let's go back every day we go back to what is kindness and compassion and respect and respect for your world and respect for your, and those are just the constant themes I bring up. I don't go beyond that. I let the kids then filter all of their messages because it comes much, they're much more receptive from their peers than they are even at 10 than they are from me. And I'm being guided in particular by three or four of my students who just have such delicious and insightful contributions that I don't need to do a whole lot.

But I want to continue to do that. And so if you have thoughts, either you know, you or Trish on that, I'm welcome. And the reason I asked you to speak some more, Jill, is because what you're describing is so inspiring. It's way more inspiring than me from outside of the classroom could ever be. I'll just, all I want to do is highlight some of the things you said, which is you're trusting them and trusting their goodness. and for you to keep letting them know that you trust them and trust their goodness, the deepest message you can give them is that you see them and you love what you see. And as you said, they listen more to each other.

So to the degree you can invite them to give feedback to each other about what they liked and what inspired them, what they thought was really cool about what another person said, and to the degree that you can start. to create a safe enough environment for them to say what's challenging and what's helping for them. So they actually develop that kind of a supporting each other, you know, that, you know, inviting them to take turns being the wise teacher that can offer some suggestions that roleplay that. And so basically what you're cultivating is a sense of you're good, you can trust your goodness, and you can be mirrors to each other of that goodness.

That's beautiful. That's perfect. And one other thing I drew from, and whether you're aware of it or not, something that occurred to me as you were saying that, is that my students, my fear is that they will get covered up. This beautiful gold will get covered up

going down the line and how do I how do I impress upon them that you are awake right now you guys are aware and you're conscious right now don't let it get buried how yeah tell them the story of the golden Buddha which I can tell you know I do tell them it and and and teach them a little way to each day remind themselves of the of the gold in themselves and see the gold in each other Like just create that as one of the games, invitations, challenges, and fun place they pay attention. But mostly I want to say, don't, they will get covered up. Continue to trust them anyway because we all get covered up. Right.

And so your fear about them getting covered up will, is a little contagious too. So keep track of that. And no, it's not going to be perfect, but there's a whole lot of hope in this. And if you're in the mood, I'd love you to send me some of what your children are telling you because it's the kind of thing I'd like to share with the world. Excellent. Thank you so much. Oh, thank you, Jill.

Big bow to you. Yeah, I know. I just, that was so inspiring just to hear about the kids who, you know, fourth, fifth grade, nine, ten years old, they're so wise. And we worry about them so much, but I don't know. I don't know. Thank you, Jill. That was my heart needed to hear some of that this morning. Yeah, let's, I will take one more. We just have a couple of minutes. Allison, I don't know if you want to come on the screen. Allison had a comment question about equanimity. Hey, Allison, playing a part in how we meet those with different views, like how the practice of equanimity can address our fear of being open-minded. Is that the gist, Allison? I just find that when you were talking about how you approach people, first of all, oh my God, it's such an honor to have a conversation with you. So thank you. When we're talking about people having difficult conversations, people that they love and are connected to, and it seems now that there's this heightened level of emotion, rawness that is coming through in these conversations,

whereas even five years ago, you could have a conversation and hear someone else's views with sort of an objectivity. And now there's this fear, and I spend a lot of time in my life trying to figure out where that fear comes from. It was really helpful what you said about that man processing his fear of, you know, that suffering that his brother's views could create, but then below that connecting to the love of the commonality of the love and compassion. But I find that there seems to be a fear of people being afraid that their minds might change a little, that their views are so much, they've identified so closely with those views that they are afraid to open their mind to the possibility that there is another side that maybe there's more place to meet in the middle. So I've been trying to work with my own practice in that space of equanimity where you can ride the waves and sort of step back as a third,

almost a third objective view to try to find that middle. I was wondering what your thoughts were on that. Well, I love that we're actually ending on this note of equanimity because it's our superpower and it takes cultivation. Usually we have to cultivate it a bit on the sidelines when we're in the thick of a situation the best we might be able to do is say breathe deeper and I usually tell myself don't believe your thoughts and don't believe your thoughts and don't believe your thoughts you know just because I'm just trying to be but on the sidelines we can do a lot to cultivate that refuge of equanimity which is just as you say to see where the grasping is you know to say you know what is it I'm really unwilling to feel

What am I afraid of? And it's again, that groundlessness. Here's the thing. Fear is trying to protect us. It's not doing, it's not necessarily doing good job of it. It's misguided, but it's trying to protect us. So I find it really helpful just to just to acknowledge that. Thank you for trying to protect me, but I'm okay. And there's something in that kind of recognition of what's real, that it's here and it's trying to protect me, that in the moment of recognizing, and this is the magic of mindfulness, the what we are opens to a larger space. We become that witness. We regain that superpower of equanimity. So practice on the sidelines. Start with exactly what's here. Don't try to prematurely transcend it and say, oh, I'm just going to be a quantumist. Start with what's here. But befriend it, be interested in it,

acknowledge it and you'll find there'll be a natural opening into more space and that is the space of equanimity thank you yeah thank you allison wonderful question yeah yes Allison's an MMTC peer Tara ah yay lovely to know it yeah okay friends we are we are at the end of our time. Tara, just want to say a few closing words before I close us out? I would. What I'd like, because I know how many of us really honor and love Desmond Tutu and because of his recent passing and because of the things that we've been talking about, I just want to read something from him. And so you might close your eyes for a moment. and feel the breath at the heart.

And just notice that it's really possible in this moment to be intimate with your own heart. And in that way, being come open into heart space. And here's what he says. He says at no point will evil and injustice and oppression and all the negative things have the last word. And yes, there's no question about the reality of evil, of injustice, of suffering. but you know at the center of this existence is a heart beating with love that you and I and all of us are incredible I mean we really are remarkable things that we are as a matter of fact made for goodness at the center of this existence is the heart beating with love and to the degree

friends that we can entrust ourselves towards that trust that what we're longing for is the love that we already are, that we are this heart beating with love. Our lives will become an expression of that. And that's what will ripple out and be a feeling to our world. So, namaste. Thank you. Thank you, Tara.

And thank you, everyone, for your presence today. And we hope to see you, maybe even next month. month for Stephen Batchelor and to also thank you again for your donations for this series. It's so wonderful to be with you every month. So take care, everyone. Be well.