Tara Brach - Trusting the Path: A Conversation on Refuge & Compassion | Tara Brach, Ajahn Kovilo & Ajahn Nisabho

Episode Date: October 2, 2025

In this rich and heartful conversation, I join two dear Buddhist monks — Ajahn Kovilo and Ajahn Nisabho — who are in the process of founding Clear Mountain Monastery, a new Buddhist community in the Seattle area. Their bright, warm spirit brings a lighthearted and sincere presence to our dialogue, making this exchange a true joy to share. Together, we explore many dimensions of the spiritual path — including my own journey of finding refuge during a dark time, the teachers who've inspired me, and the teachings that most deeply call to my heart. We also reflect on the practice of RAIN, the dance between directing attention and opening to what's here, and how compassion and equanimity intertwine to support us in these challenging times. Along the way, we touch into the Pali word sanook — meaning fun or lightheartedness — which beautifully captures the spirit of our time together. May this conversation nourish your own trust in the path and remind you of the goodness and joy that are always here, waiting to be discovered. In this talk, we'll look at: - how trusting our basic goodness becomes the foundation for intimacy, creativity, and awakening compassion in a suffering world. - Tara's own journey through illness and fear, and how softening around pain opens the heart to freedom and love. - the power of the RAIN meditation to transform judgment and reactivity into mindful presence and self-acceptance. - how taking a sacred pause helps us step out of the virtual trance and re-enter embodied awareness and connection - trusting Buddha-nature — the radiant goodness that shines through all beings — as the ultimate refuge in an unraveling world. Ajahn Kovilo and Ajahn Nisabho are part of Clear Mountain Monastery Project, an aspiring Buddhist forest monastery in the Seattle area.  Website: https://www.clearmountainmonastery.org/ YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/ClearMountainMonastery 

Welcome, friends, to the Tara Brock podcast. I'm so glad you're here. Each week, I share teachings and guided meditations to help us awaken our hearts and bring healing to our world. You can learn more or support this offering by visiting tarabrock.com, where you can also join our email list. Now, let's explore together the many ways we can live from the love and presence that's our deepest essence. Namaste. Namaste, welcome friends. Several weeks ago, I was interviewed by two Buddhist monks,

Ajan Kovalo and Ajan Nisabo. And they're in the process of founding a Buddhist monastery and community in the Seattle area. It's called Clear Mountain Monastery. So they're right now hosting a series of interviews on their YouTube channel, and I'll share the link. with this podcast. We had a really rich, wonderful conversation, so I want to share it with you

in large part because of the bright, warm spirit that flows through these two young monks. We covered many domains that included a bit about my own kind of spiritual biography, how I found refuge at a dark time in my personal life, some teachers that have inspired me, some teachings that call to me, some background to practicing rain and it will do a rain meditation, support in navigating daily life in these times, working with judgment, when to direct the mind versus just simply opening to what's here, and the relationship between compassion and equanimity and a lot more. So, I learned from them, including the Polly word Sanuk, which means fun, a like heartedness.

And I'm saying that because that's what I found really was the atmosphere of our time together. So, thanks for being here and may you enjoy. Tara, it's so great to have you on. Thank you for joining us and taking the time. Totally my pleasure. I'm delighted to meet you and be with you. So a brief introduction for those few people watching who don't actually know Tara. although I think most of you will.

Tara Brock is a Buddhist meditation teacher, psychologist and author of several books, including international bestselling radical acceptance, radical compassion, and trusting the gold. Her popular weekly podcast on emotional healing and spiritual awakening is downloaded over two million times a month. She has founder of the Insight Meditation Community of Washington, D.C.,

and has been active in bringing meditation into schools, prisons, and underserved populations. Along with Jack Cornfield, Tara leads the mindfulness meditation teacher certification program, serving participants for more than 75 countries around the world. And Tara is just, yeah, someone we've listened to and really appreciate it. And also who's really laid the groundwork of Dharma in the U.S., which Clare Mountain is growing in. And Tara, it's just so nice to actually meet you and have the time to speak. So thank you.

We wanted to, you know, we were going to start with a question about a dark time in your life, but actually we just wanted to ask a bit about your life right now. What does it look like? What's your kind of Darmic landscape at the moment and what feels onward leading for you in this time? Yeah. Well, thank you for starting there. Like what's alive right now. I would say that I saw a cartoon.

that had a doctor treating a patient, and he's looking at the report, and he'd say, well, I think the problem is you're paying attention to what's going on right now in the world. And my sense is that if we're not disturbed in some way by the world, we're not paying attention, and that doesn't mean we should be getting overweight, and, you know, despairing and lost.

But I think that for me, I'm just noticing how our world is kind of unraveling and how there's this kind of growing tide of mistrust and anger and hatred and all the things we know cause suffering. So it's impossible for me now to teach and not every time I'm teaching bridge how we're experiencing things with action in the world. It feels like there are certain times that we're just called forward and that these are one of the times. So that's a lot, that's just giving you kind of broad picture of that.

It feels very much like a time in my life where we have to keep resourcing inwardly and bringing what we might call compassion and action, bringing our hearts to the world in whatever way fits us. That actually might be a good transition to this key question of a dark time in your life and what helped you move through it and out of it. And you're right, in this kind of tide of fear, concern, worry, anger, resentment, which people might find themselves mired in, I think hearing your story of how you've merged or emerged from a dark time would be helpful. So if you wouldn't mind, Tara, tell us about something that, you know, how you moved from that. Yeah, you know, it's actually a great transition because in a way, the world is in a deceased. state. And one of the darkest times in my life, I was in this downward cycle of disease physically. And at one point, I was in a cardiac unit. It turned down it wasn't my heart, but I was in a cardiac unit for like five days. They didn't know what was wrong with me. There was no reason

to think I was going to get better. It'd already been going on for a few years. And I remember this wave of incredible despair, fear and despair. And it was like up until the night, I'd been fighting, I'd been trying to get better, been trying to figure it out, but it was like nothing was working. And it was out of control, life, you know. And so that was, that was the dark moment, being, you know, kind of in the middle of the night and, you know, how hospitals are like twilight through the whole night. And, um, but very, very, you know, very, you know, kind of the dark moment. And, you know, alone in it. And so what came to me was a phrase I remembered from a Tibetan teaching to meet your edge and soften. And so what was, my edge was fear. And in some way I needed

to soften. I needed to actually bring my heart to the fear, to love the fear. Because fear was just so dominant. It was asking my attention. So I just remember that process of, okay, soften with this, soften with this, and just trying to open into and profoundly allow the reality that was there to be there. Just say yes, this is what's here right now, not to push away in any way. And the more I opened, it was like I was just flooded my body, the whole realm of my awareness felt flooded with fear. But as I kept open, I started becoming the openness that the fear was happening in. And it wasn't even I became the openness.

There was just this openness that was increasingly tender. And so I guess I'd say the other side of it is that the fear became, loving the fear became this portal to just being that openness and awakeness and tenderness that really felt like home. from that space, it just became clear that what I was is more than this living, dying world, and I didn't want to die and I wanted to get my health back, but there was this profound freedom that suffused it. And so what I found after that is I kept on, I actually am way, way better. I got out of that spiral.

It was about six years. And I'm in very good health. I'm just very grateful to say that. But what it taught me a lot about what it means to take refuge in a really, really hard time, which is take refuge in reality, like absolute, unconditional, radical presence with exactly what's here. And for me, that meant loving the fear. And I'll just add that loving fear doesn't mean that at the beginning when we're softening

to fear, it feels like love. the beginning of love is accepting what's here. Acceptance is the root of love. But by accepting and opening, gradually we become the presence that's open. So that was a great teacher to open to reality. And it brings us right to what's going on today and today's world. Because whether I'm despairing or feeling grief about my own body or whether I'm thinking of children in Gaza or people that are being swept away in

ice attacks, you know, deportation and so. The same thing is what will arise in me, the pain that arises in me, the teaching is to make that you turn, to not blame outward, but to bring the attention here and open the heart to what's going on inside. Because if I do, then I can respond to the world for more sanity. And if I don't, I'm caught in reactivity and pain. That was a perfectly timed gong, I think. Yeah, you turned gong. We definitely do want to stay in the present moment and, you know, talk about the present. But just to situate maybe that episode in your life and also some of the themes you're talking about, about refuge. If you could just talk a little bit, you're a psychologist,

but you're also a Buddhist. You've studied with Theravada teachers, and you've also studied with Dochen Tibetan teachers in this kind of coming to the edge and softening. Could you talk about just your own spiritual biography a little bit as much as feels comfortable and relevant for the present? Sure. Well, I started in with the yoga world. And so I started in in a very embodied way, you know, really learning how to be awake in the body and find balance in the body and then opened up to the, through TerraVada and Vapasana, to the amazing power of being able to sustain attention, concentrate attention, to notice what's going on in really precise ways,

and then through Zogh Chen to be the awareness that's noticing, which, by the way, is also in Terravada, of course. but it just happened to be that turning to notice the awareness itself was pivotal and helping me wake up. So I've had, you know, experience in those different traditions. And now they're seamlessly woven in with other traditions, other teachers, other poets. You know, it all, everything informs. It's like the Dharma is taught in a blade of grass and in everything. tradition at this point.

I'm not sure how else to respond right this moment. One place I'd like to ask actually is for me there's a pretty powerful moment where you know you are learning or getting your you know you're going through different traditions in the yoga tradition and then there comes a moment where you really gain faith in the triple gem and the Buddha becomes kind of comes into your heart a bit and I'm just curious for you you, when did your faith as a Buddhist really spark? Can you speak to that moment either of like that when the Buddha became kind of a significant figure in your heart or just the song as some teacher that really invoked that faith? Just curious about your relationship with the triple gem in that way. Yeah. And with Buddhism, what's interesting is

my draw to Buddhism were the practices of paying attention. because they reveal to me truth that you could have in different languages. Like, for me, my love for the Buddha is mostly love for Buddha nature. And the Buddha is one of many figures through history that has expressed that Buddha nature. And the teachings that have been in the Buddhist tradition are the ones that most call me because they're articulated in a way that I think allows the deepest practice. I love the way they're articulated. So when you say fall in love with the refuge of the Buddha, the Triple Gem,

it started way before I was ever introduced to Buddhism. It started when I started sensing that there was an innate goodness that's streaming through all of us, and it's our awakeness, it's our sentience, it's our love. And that became the, when I wrote the book, trusting the gold, it's like, as I began trusting that this goodness is more the truth of who we are than any story we tell, I was taking refuge in the Buddha. The Buddha's model, you know, trust in this.

You know, I wouldn't teach us unless you two could wake up to the truth of who you are. That is a kind of audacious statement. The teachers that inspire me are audacious. And when I say audacious, what I mean by that is they have such profound trust. It's called the Lions Roar in Tibetan practice. But such a profound trust in what we really are, that light, that love, that goodness, that their lives are lived out of that trust. And so the Buddha is an example.

Oh, my gosh, you know. And there are more contemporary examples. I mean, I think of Joanna Macy who passed away last month. She was audacious, you know. She was so bold in her way of loving this life. And it's because she had a profound trust in the formless, awareness that that's really her source. And I think of Pema children, the same thing. She's audacious. So

I love that. And I see it in both of you, what you're doing and the way you bridge the Dharma and make it available. There's a faith and a trust in what's possible and what's true that gives you the flexibility and the inspiration and the energy to do what you do. So I bow to audacity. Tara, it's interesting. You know, you're speaking to this resonance with something much deeper, even before encountering the Buddha as such.

And your book title, Trusting the Gold, I just remember the first time I saw, I read Siddhartha and saw this image of the Buddha, the biggest moments in my life have had this intuition of gold and light every time. And I just found it so, there's something so perfectly resonant about that. So thank you. Interesting factoid here. If I asked you, what is the most known religious symbol, cross religions, in this world? What might you say? I'm going to guess gold. That's because we're making associations here. Most people would say cross. And the answer is the halo, which has to do with the radiance of enlightenment, and that you find the halo in all different religions in some.

way because humans experience that waking up, that evolving has to do with that kind of light, more of a sense of it's all made of light. It's all made of love. So anyway, sorry for that, but I just got struck by that as being really beautiful. That's fascinating. One of our monk brothers is an icon painter. He's a Buddhist monk, but actually paints Buddhist iconography, but learned iconography from a Ukrainian-uniate Catholic monk, who is a professional icon painter. And basically what you do in icon painting is you start with the base layer of light. You start with the lightest layer and then build the shadow.

And then it's as if the light is shining not from above or from anywhere else, but actually shining out from within. You're building the shadow on top of the light. Ooh. Ooh. Oh, I love it. I love it. He's artist.

Oh, I drink Vila. I'm going to remember that one. That's great. That's beautiful. Yeah. But just, I mean, this kind of points to one of your main skills is being able to talk across traditions. And I told my mom, and I told you a little bit, but she listens to your talk. She's not Buddhist.

I've got pre-munk, non-Buddhist friends who listen to your talks. And I think one of your specific skillful means that you. we've heard you talk about a lot, is the R-A-I-N, the R-A-I-N, the R-R-A-N acronym, and we would love you to do a little bit of a guided meditation. And I think we have actually perhaps structured our questions for you around this R-A-I-N framework. So could you maybe explain what it is and do a guided meditation with all of us? Sure. I would love to. Well, Rane is really a way to practice mindfulness and compassion.

It's a weave of mindfulness and compassion. And the value of it is the times you most need mindfulness and compassion are exactly when our limbic system has hijacked the day. And it's very hard to remember the way back. So by having some steps, it helps us, you know, find our way. And I have had more people write to me saying, you know, rain saved my life than anything else. And when I, what motivated me to write about it

and teach about it more fully in my own life, a brief story, my mother came to live with us. And it was a really tough time because the stress of, you know, book deadlines and this and that, and then having an aging mom here, going to doctor's appointments, giving her time and feeling welcome. So I was feeling a lot of guilt and a lot of self-judgment.

And I remember one particular time I was right here doing a, I think I was, you know, writing a talk on META and my mom walked in with an article to show me. And I barely looked up. And then I saw her retreating form and said, oh my gosh, you know, how long am I going to have her? And I did rain. And rain stands for recognize, allow, investigate, and nurture. what I was recognizing was feeling that clutch of anxiety and guilt and recognize you just name it. It's the basics of mindfulness just to name what's there. And then allow means this belongs.

It's part of reality. Let it be like a wave in the ocean. Just let it be here. So I said, okay, this guilt and anxiety, it's part of life. Let it be here. And then I is investigate. and that means it's not a mental investigation. It's mostly embodied where you feel the clutch. I might ask myself, what am I believing right now? Which I was believing the classic belief, I'm failing, I'm bad, you know. But mostly it's to feel somatically in the body. So I was feeling that clutch.

Put my hand on my heart. That's the beginning of N or nurture. And sense, well, what's needed? right now. You know, what does the wise, this kindest part of me sense is needed? And I needed to remind myself of my, that I loved my mom and that I was dedicated to the work I was doing and it would turn out okay. You know, I needed to remind myself really just to trust, to trust my heart and to trust life. After that, I had recognized, allowed, investigated, nurse there was a sense of opening up. There was just more space. I was less contracted. I was more at ease.

And I call that after the rain. It's just like after real rain, after rain falls, we see what happens afterwards with the blossoming. I was just resting in a larger space of awareness. I was not caught up in the little self that was as anxious and guilty. And I did a lot of that. I did a lot of rain around that with my mom. And things loosened up. I just felt when I was with her, I was with her. I just was there. We had our big salads together and went for walks on the river.

And she died about four years later. And I still think of her and feel a wave of sorrow and waves of love. But the big thing is rain saved my. life moments with my mom. Rain saved that. Rain gave me moments with her and I'm just so grateful. So that got me writing about it and I'm hoping as I share the story, giving anyone listening a sense of how you can do rain with yourself. You just have to pause and sometimes it takes two minutes. You can do a light rain shower, you know, or you can do a more drawn out and it's not a one-shot, just like anything else, deconditioning patterns takes many rounds.

But it's not a lightweight technique, just like mindfulness and compassion, can wake us up beyond that story of a separate self into who we really are. That's what Rain does. So, I found it really valuable. A lot of people find one of the places they use it the most is when they've turned on themselves, because one of the great sufferings of our world is, as divided as we are from each other, that means we're divided from ourselves. We can't be blaming and angry at another person unless we're cut off from our own heart in some way. So what I'll do is lead a short rain meditation that'll give anyone listening a chance, And even if you've done it a thousand times, each time we bring a kind awareness to what's going on inside,

we get more familiar with freedom. So, good time to do it right now? It's perfect, please. Thank you. Okay. So take a moment. Let this be a pause and invite yourself to bring your attention inward. If you want to close your eyes or lower the gaze, that's fine. and you might take a moment also to feel the movement of the breath

and let the movement of the breath collect the attention, let the movement of the breath help you to know you're really right here, here in this moment. And if it helps, just scan the body a little and sense what wants to let go, what can let go easily. And then widen the scan and sense if there's any,

anything going on in your life right now that you're holding against yourself. If there's any pattern of judging, of self-version, any pattern of being turned on yourself that you'd like to loosen up, bring more awareness to. So it could be that it's judging yourself for something going on in a relationship with a partner, a friend, or child, situation. work and addictive behavior, but not the kind of self-judgment or self-aversion that really has trauma to it. And as you consider this since a recent time that you felt triggered, where you got down on yourself and since the worst part of it, like what was most disturbing.

So recognize means to notice whatever emotion is predominant. You might even note it with a silent whisper. might be judgment or anger or fear, whatever it is, shame, embarrassment. Allow in some way to agree to reality, this belongs. Just allowing your feelings to be as they are. Even the intention to allow begins to open up some space. And you might begin investigating by just sensing, well, what am I believing about myself? what's the worst thing I'm believing?

What am I believing bad is going to happen? And it might be your sense of, well, I'm failing, others are going to reject me, I'm hurtful, just some sense of personal badness. Sense under the belief, whatever you're believing, how does it make you feel? What's the sense in your body when you're turned on yourself?

when in some way you're living in the story of a bad self. And just feel your body. And you might as you ask that question, let your face and your posture even take the expression of what it's like to be in a sense of a bad self. Just feel your face from the inside. And then sense in the body where you feel most vulnerable. Maybe a throat, chest, belly.

And you put your hand on your heart as you do this as we begin to move towards nurturing. And if you've never done this before, it's very powerful. Just a very light touch, a tender touch. And just sense what the part in you that's feeling vulnerable or bad most needs, what's the reminder, what's the quality of care that part needs right now? and begin to witness yourself from the most wise and loving dimension of your being. And sense if you can offer what's needed, just intuit what's most needed. It may be that that witnessing presence says, I'm not leaving, I'm here with you.

Trust your goodness. You're lovable just as you are. You're doing the best you can. you're always held in love. Your very essence is love, is awareness. Trust that. Whatever message. And if it's hard to offer to yourself, imagine it coming from a larger source,

from the Buddha, from another spiritual figure, from a trusted friend, from an ancestor, from your pet, from a tree, from the earth. But feel your hand and let thee, energy of care, wash through and into you. Wash right into the place it feels vulnerable. Let your intention be to receive. So you're both the holder and the held.

And in these last few moments, just notice the quality of presence that's here. And you might sense intuitively what's shifted. If there's less identification with the self that's being judged, if there's more of a resting and spaciousness and tenderness in freedom. And just let yourself relax back into that. Just getting to know the openness and light and love that's more the truth of who you are than any story, the awareness that's your true home.

All right, thank you very much. Thank you very much. I similarly with my mom and with, I'm sure, thousands and thousands, if not tens of thousands or more, people have really benefited from that. And myself, there have been times, you know, monastic life, it's not always easy. You kind of, I'm sure, in any kind of life you find yourself sometimes with your head up against the wall. And it's like you've pushed and I've done as much as I can.

And, you know, rain is a great next immediate step. And next, it's, yeah, really great practice. And I'm curious, one phrase you use. which is kind of the whole context for allowing rain is this sacred pause and, you know, kind of contextualizing our conversation a little bit around, you know, present day events. And, you know, a lot of that is informed by people's watching of the news. And I'm curious what space you give to your students in terms of taking like a broader sacred pause, not just for rain. But yeah, I mean, this is a big part of monastic life, a big allowance of the Buddha is that there's huge spaciousness for seclusion for taking a step back, for taking a longer extended sacred pause. And we just love, yeah, to hear what you advise people about that, even in a broader extent and also just news, taking a break from news sometimes. Is there a space for that? Well, thank you for that inquiry, because I feel.

I feel like more than ever, we're in a virtual reality trance. We spend so many moments. I mean, we already know that we're in a thinking trance most of the time. This is another dimension of it, which is on a screen in a virtual reality. And most people for many hours a day, huge swaths of time, are living in a virtual reality. it's addiction. It's an addiction. And it's an addiction that we need to be humble about because it really affects most of us, the draw of the dopamine, the biochemistry of being on screens. So yes, to your point, both for screen time and general and more, and the news, it feels really

important that we feel our aspiration to be awake, to be embodied. to live our moments and out of that actually create some restrictions. And I'm a believer in that. I can tell you my own rules. My own rules are I don't listen to any news at all on Sundays. And on other days of the week, I will not take in any news until after I've done all my Sadna, which is my word for, you know, exercise, meditate, tend, you know, be outside and so on in the morning.

And then I cut out in the evening after I take a walk and cut out and cut off. So that's my news regime. And it makes a really big difference. Often it's more than that. Right now it's a little bit more because I'm feeling amping up the, it creates so much bodily distress to take in the news that it doesn't serve. It's not like it's informing me. So I think everybody's got to figure out their own boundaries.

But it feels like a really relevant question to anybody that's on the spiritual path, which is how are you navigating times that are designed to addict your attention? There's a, you know, that simile of rain is so appropriate. There's a quote you referenced from Rumi in one of your talks about how nothing really grows on jagged ground. It's, you know, crumbled earth. And so try being crumbled for a time. And in just the sense of the pause, these terms you use, the limbic trance, the trance of self-blame, this trance of virtual reality. I think it's such an appropriate word because it implies fixation, narrowing of focus, a certain rigidity and a certain

the sacred pause implies some amount of humility of letting the egos cries fall away for a second, you know, and then rain being what allows something to grow in that kind of softer ground. So in terms of bringing that to this particular conversation and moment, not just curious about the restrictions you laid out around how much news people are taking in, which is kind of like baking sunlight on that ground. We're trying to soften up a bit. What other means do you have in your life for holding space for your practice, for cultivating it? Do you have any other structures or skillful means to give people to loosen up that ground so the rain can make its way in?

You know, like practical things in their daily life to hold the sacred, which is so easily swept away by, you know, the kind of neon buzz of how much we're, bringing in otherwise? Yeah, well, a lot of times we kind of divide it between formal practice and informal, and so I've got my formal practice. I'm lucky because I happen to love practicing. I mean, not everybody does. I have a fascination and love for practice, just because I love love and I love truth, so it, you know, I'm in it. Informal practice, just to name one of them, because this has been so helpful to me. It was years back that I realized that any time I was judging anybody, I was in a trance, that I wasn't seeing the whole picture, that I was caught in something smaller. So I made this commitment when I caught myself judging to make the U-turn, to shift the attention from out

there to really asking with curiosity, okay, so what's happening inside me right now? And it's been one of the most liberating practices of my life to begin to sense that under any judgment there's some form of fear or trying to inflate the self because of insecurity and then defined underneath that. And it's true with the news too. Like one of the examples that I think I shared even in radical acceptance because I was using it then, was we were about to attack Iraq. This was back in 2003, I think. And I was full of judgment. I was angry and bitter at the, you know, basically white conservative hawks, generally males that were, you know, planning to send our troops over and kill many and set off ripples of horror for what's been a couple decades. And so I'd read the newspaper because then it was a big physical thing I was reading.

And then I'd do a newspaper meditation which is exactly what we're talking about right now. It's an informal practice where I'd put it down, I'd take a pause, I'd make that U-turn, I'd find in me this anger, this othering, bad othering, which is so critical to be able to bear witness to and not buy into. So I'd feel the bad othering and the anger and then I'd find underneath that the fear. I'm afraid of what's going to happen, you know, really afraid. And then I'd keep opening and I'd find this powerlessness because I think that's what a lot of us are finding.

It's like we're horrified by what's happening and powerless. And then I'd have to open to that. Yes, this too, this too, because that's, of course, the mantra of unfolding rain, you know, allowing more and more. And underneath the powerlessness was this huge grief for what was unfolding in our world. And when I can open to grief, and this is true on any level, that is the portal to love.

And we need to grieve. We really need to grieve. We need to have our hearts broken. Unfortunately, we usually stand the level of judging and bad othering and bad selfing. But if underneath we can get to the grief, we can get to our caring. Because here's the thing, underneath our anger, there's something we're caring about. There's something we're caring about. And if we can

respond to the world from care versus anger, we can make a difference. I mean, most of us believe in that beautiful, beautiful verse of hatred never seizes by hatred. But by love alone is healed. This is the ancient and eternal law. Most of us... Yeah, we get it. And yet, when we get caught, we're in a trance, and we need to come back down to the love.

And we actually need to start with the hatred. You don't just shift from hatred to love. You actually have to dive into the layers underneath it to get to the place that feels afraid and powerless and then grieving, and then we get to love. It strikes me as a very beautiful. beautiful articulation of the first noble truth, you know, to understand Dukha. You have to stand under Dukha. And that's beautifully said. This is, this is totally the noble truths. Yeah.

Yeah. And I think that's a great bridge from this first step we've kind of been talking about, of recognizing the trance of the unreal other, the trance of fear, the trance of unworthiness, recognizing all of that, having this sacred pause and into this allowing. And I'm curious, you know, part of any kind of spiritual life, you do talk about like the blessing of self or this this to practice or even inviting Mara to tea. And there are times when that is like the only thing that works and we have to do that. And I'm curious if you would maybe talk to, is there a limit to that? Is there a space for the blessings of no?

Just speaking about especially for, you know, early on in our practice. say when we're working with the precepts and we're really trying to get rid of our more coarse addictions to drugs or other types of sensuality and bad habits like lying, which just can ruin our lives. We take that first drink. We say that, you know, yell at our child or our spouse. And it can really, you know, there is a place where the many places where the Buddha does give allowance for avoiding or even for, you know, there's some strong language about, you know,

know, obliterating thoughts of sensuality or unskilful mind states, giving similes of like, just as a strong man would take a weaker man and, you know, move him about. So too, one activates this active control of mind states for when that's, and he's definitely not saying that that's always the thing to do. But what, yeah, how does that fit in with the practice of yes, the practice of allowing here? obliteration. Yeah. Tell us about

obliteration. Well, I mean, the simplest way to say it is that totally fits in because sometimes we have to say yes to our no. And sometimes it's totally wise. It's totally intelligent. That if I am

triggered and I'm in total fight-flight-freeze, it might not be wise as to say yes to the fight-flight-freeze reaction and get even more traumatized. Instead, there's a pardon that says, no, this is too much. And I say yes to that. And then I use whatever regulates emotions.

And I'm going from your example into kind of Western terminology. But I'll use controlling and directing the mind in certain ways to calm down the sympathetic nervous system. Or, as the Buddha might say, turn away from the thoughts that are triggering me and turn towards what's going to soothe me. So there's absolutely an intelligence in turning in certain directions. And many people will say, you know, I tried to open, I tried to, I felt fear, I recognized fear, but I couldn't allow it. There are times that it's too much. And we have to say, no, I can't do it right now. And then what happens in the moment that we say yes to the no, there already is more space.

I want to speak about the investigation side of it as well. I think, you know, when you suggested the topic for this interview as being kind of how to hold compassion in an unraveling world, it struck me, we could probably air that YouTube video in, you know, fourth century BC, and it would also hit quite a note as well. And, you know, Upeka, this, you know, etymologically, equanimity Upeca means to kind of look over or look to look closely. And Ionanda Bode translate it's as the bird's eye view. And I am curious about, you know, this feature of a trance is this narrowing and a focus. And I see a danger of that with the narrative of like, now is the worst it's ever been. And you and your talks have referenced,

you know, Stephen Pinker's work about certain metrics of how things are going in the world actually improving or being okay. So would you be able to speak to, you know, the idea or the thought or how to hold the conception that the world in a sense is always unraveling, that there's been these issues to work with for eons as well. How to hold that with the kind of urgency of the moment, how to balance Upeka equipoise with these engaged Brahma Vihars. So one thing I would say, and I know you both know this, is that Opeka is the grounds of all the Brahma,

You can't have real compassion, and I mean mature, full-blown compassion, unless there's that quality also of knowing and spaciousness, and you can't have real Opeka unless there's also true contact with reality. And so more we can speak to what are the shadow sides, and the shadow side of compassion, meaning embodied resonant with the pain of the world, feeling the immediacy, hey, yes, it's been going on through history, but this person right in front of me is hurting. So we need to have compassion. I mean, we need to have that kind of embodied sense of belonging to our world and belonging to the person in front of us and being moved to act. I mean, this is, there's no dividing on the spiritual path between inner practice and then expressing it, expressing that practice with love and kindness.

So, you know, we become number and different without compassion. So we need to have that, but the shadow side is that it can dip into burnout, despair, overwhelm. I can see it in many people that I'm involved with and I can see it in my sense. when we have that sense of it's really, really bad right now and I need to do something. I need to make something different. And there's this ego sense. It's like compassion falls into delusion and we feel like, you know, we're supposed to be doing something and we're overwhelmed.

And the antidote, if you think of it as breathing in and breathing out, is to breathe out back into that space that's more impersonal of Apeka, where we're realizing a larger belonging, we're realizing spaciousness, or realizing this has happened through time, and that we're part of a movement of change, but it's not about a self. Now, there's also a shadow to Apeka, which I know you know, which is that it easily turns into a kind of distance and indifference, a kind of dissociative state where there's a sense of, oh, I belong to this eternal formless reality and not letting what's right in front of us matter and touch our heart. It's disembodied. And so the antidote to that is kind of like breathing in and reconnecting to the feeling world,

by feeling our body, feeling the earth body and feeling each other and intentionally reflecting on our relatedness on what love is asking. So to me, it's not as much a balance as just noticing when we've gone into a shadow and bringing up the qualities that make it so that we're both embodied, feeling, tender, and spacious enough so that it's not personal. Thank you, Tara. Yeah, that's Ajan Cha called that the equanimity of a water bottle. Buffalo. Oh, that's a great one. We just noticed before the interview that my name means cow, so

well, I want to go for the water buffalo. Well, I want to go for the water buffalo. Just also on this theme of investigation, you have a very funny story in trusting the gold in which you kind of sit down with your husband and just you say how are we doing how are we doing and he how are we doing? Yeah. That's what you say and he there's a pause and then he takes out his phone and he says, hey, I don't want to say it, but hey, Siri, what do you, how do you respond when your wife says, how are we doing? Siri just opened up. Yeah. And Siri's response was, you say, I'm okay. you're okay, and this is the best of all possible worlds. So that's a direct quote because I'm remembering for the next time,

I'm Janicebo and I have such a conversation. I'm here, Jonathan. Yeah, that's right. I want you to know that his disease is avoidant behavior. Yeah, so when I asked that question, how are we doing? He got the deer in the headlights look, like, you know, okay, this female is asking me to process something. And of course, I was being a bit controlling and domineering and kind of trying to put him on the spot. And he was trying to avoid being on the spot.

So both of us were playing out our shadows. But it ended up, the humor led us ended up going deeper. It's such a good story. And there's a lot there. But partly just thinking this was the book came out in 2021. So presumably it took place before that at some point. And so that was just. S-I-R-I at that time, but now we've got AI. And AI, the possibility to investigate with AI,

it's honestly fantastic and getting better. And, you know, my dad is a psychiatrist, and he's experimenting with AI and is saying, basically, you know, the field of psychiatry is we're going to become obsolete. And I'm curious to what extent you feel people should lean into their own inner investigation, totally putting all the phones, all the SIRIs, you know, off, you know, turning those off and versus actually using these tools to see, you know, I know some people, we haven't done it, but actually training their AIs on themselves. And, you know, I know a fair number of people, Ezra Klein talks about, you know, having a, you know, a therapist AI in their pocket and that it's really good and that they get to know them more and

can give more and more specific advice. So to what extent should we investigate internally without AI versus having AI help us to the extent it can? Yeah. And so obviously I don't have a formula or percentage, but what comes to mind is that the only path to liberation is direct experience, direct realization, which comes by directly paying attention to the reality that's right here, without any interference, interpretation, anything. And so there's no way around building our muscle of paying attention, which means to this very body mind that's here, looking inward, looking directly at awareness itself. There's no way an intermediate can help. But there are roles, both for AI and for other people, you know, to facilitate that process and for us to facilitate with each other. I mean, you could say something you're stuck on, and if I ask you a good question, it's only a good question because it'll turn you towards yourself to deepen attention. That's what good AI can do, is it can ask questions or point out things that turn us to actually more directly stay with ourselves and pay attention. And we can do that for each other.

That's why I love rain partners because when we do rain together, let's say we're both, we're all coming up with something and we're processing it. First, it makes us more accountable. We stay with the process more. But then in the exchange, because we all have so many overlapping patterns and so on, it actually sparks us to deepen our inquiry with ourselves. We learn from each other. That's satsung.

I mean, that's the whole idea of satsun of being in sanga. Yeah, that's beautiful. Yes, definitely leaning into turning back on ourselves, doing that U-turn, like you talked about, having these reign partners. And is there a Tara Brock, Tara Brock AI yet that anybody's? We're working on it. I actually and you can share with me after I'll send you I have a questionnaire out because I'm really curious as to how people would relate but yeah there's I think there's a real value

to be able to we already have it we can already go online and ask any Dharma question and get amazing responses but that's just one level of the path the deep level

is just what we're talking about It's the immediate, unconditional presence with what is. Are the, you know, we are speaking about moving through an unraveling world. I find you're speaking so often about your relationships and with such humility, you know, speaking about your movement with your husband and all this. And that this is one of the great realms. of learning and suffering and everything trance that people fall into is just with those closest to them and who they love the most and yet, you know, are the porcupines proverbially, you know,

pricking each other as we stay close together. I wondered if you would give any other helpful means or words of encouragement with people doing the U-turn in relationship. You know, I'm sure most people listening can think of some argument that's echoing or some kind of something like that. And I didn't want this interview to finish without just getting some Tara Brock encouragement for how people can really hold that with sanctity as a gateway to growth. Yeah. Well, first of all, every one of us are most people.

If there are a close relationship, there's conflict. And it's not conflict between people. It's really a conflict of needs. And we all have unmet needs. And we're in different dances trying to meet our needs. and they sometimes collide. So the tendency is to make the other wrong and the tendency is not to process within ourselves

enough to even be in touch with what we're really feeling, the deep vulnerability. So the idea of taking a sacred pause is ideally both people can do it, but if the other person doesn't, it's okay. Because even if one person does it and is coming from a little bit more of a under, divided heart, they've already been with themselves, there's going to be more clarity and

freedom. So for Jonathan and me, if there's something that comes up, say, I mean, I remember at times when I was sick, he would come up with advice on what I should do and how I should fix myself, you know, and good things to check out medically, but I really, that's not what I wanted. I just wanted a companion in some deep way, you know, really, really, and things, and it got me angry. So I would take these pauses and I would check in and under the anger, really deep down was a feeling of insecurity like, I'm no fun anymore. Because this was when we were young in our relationship, he's not going to like me anymore because I'm just an irritable creep right these days.

And so that was what was under it. I wanted his companionship, but underneath even that, it was fear that he would reject me. And when I got in touch with that, that was such a, oh, okay, this is an old place, that fear of not being loved just as I am, you know. So then I could do the rain and hold myself with compassion. So when I talk to him, rather than blaming him for what he was doing wrong, I could say, I just have to say that when that happens, I get really insecure because deep down I feel like, you know, and I'd share it and then he could get more real and say, well, I give you these

ideas and suggestions but I'm just feeling so helpless. Here's someone I love and she's going through all this. So we both could get to a vulnerable place and I'm spending time on this example because conflict can't get resolved unless we're able to go into our vulnerability, which means loving the fear, you know, bringing that presence to fear and leaning in and sensing what's under it. And then we're more kind with ourselves and then we're able to speak for more wholeness in our relationships. And rather than the blame that'll always make people feel defensive, when we speak from vulnerability, we actually can foster connection.

I know you referenced Marshall Rosenberg's nonviolent communication. And Ajin Covill and I use observation feeling need request all the time. And just how that makes you do the U-turn and articulate feeling and need. Brilliant. When you mentioned the U-turn, I thought of this thing or maybe whenever we get an limbic trance, we can make each other take a spin around in a circle. And I think you're really fun for the round about John. Well, it's actually becomes a total path to waking up when you have Songo, which means

people that are committed to waking up and want to use whatever comes up as, you know, the mud that helps the lotus bloom. So you're in good shape. Speaking about this nurturing aspect of things, one other big feature of your books is you reference and quote from many, many different traditions and really wonderful choices of quotes. And basically it seems like in this nurturing phase of rain, Really, it is finding what works to really soften the heart. And I am curious, another cool phrase you have, is resource anchors. And so things which, if we're feeling overwhelmed, a practice like rain or a quote that we have,

or in the Thai forest tradition, this boudo mantra coming back being the knowing. And I was raised Unitarian, which is a very anchor resource rich tradition. But at some point I was really happy to find Therabata Buddhism in specifically this tradition because it is very clear. Like Unitarianism, it's basically every holy book. It's a lot of anchors here and there. It's so many anchors that like, okay, can I just have one for a little bit? And I'm curious the extent to which you encourage people to go broad or really to go deep or does it depend on the person. in terms of just people sticking with one tradition,

even one canon, the polycanon, a Tibetan canon, or if they're Sufi or whatever someone is, really just sticking with that for a time or for the on infinite item. Yeah, what is your sense? Yeah, it's a great question. And I'll just say, you know, how the Unitarians describe praying to God. They say, to whom it may concern. Yeah, that's really good.

And by the way, I grew up Unitarian also, so I'm very familiar with, yeah, and I love the Unitarians. I love their social action and compassion. It really depends on the person in terms of going wide and going deep. To some degree, you put a little new seedling into the ground, and you need to nurture it, and you have to keep on watering it for its roots to get deep enough to let it grow. So in that sense, if there's a practice we feel drawn to, do it enough so that you can feel like it's not your practice. You're living it from the inside out. But in terms of where we seek a source of inspiration, it depends on your intention because some people will keep going wide.

And it's because of this ceaseless thing of trying to grasp the next new teaching that's going to enlighten them or the next new teaching. most popular sage on the circuits or whatever. And there's a kind of grasping. And if something's there that they trust, it can help to settle more just because of that temperament. But for others, they can get kind of rigid and flexible and stuck on something, and it's refreshing and it actually is expanding to begin to sense how those teachings are expressed through other traditions.

and it might turn them on to something somatic they hadn't gotten in a, you know, like maybe moving or dance or something that actually wakes them up. So it's not an either or, but it comes down to intention. It really comes down to really sensing what's my intention and either staying right here or going wide. And what's the outcome of what's going on? Is this free? Is there freedom? That's beautiful. And yeah, there is this deep. I didn't know you were Unitarian. I'm not. at all surprised. I love meeting other U-Bos or Boo-Us or Boo-Bos or whatever, whatever it's called. And there's a deep connection, lots of Unitarian churches sharing their space. One thing my dad says, who's not Unitarian, he says, Unitarianis, they don't have 10 commandments, they have 10 suggestions,

horrible truths, they have different options. That's so Unitarian. Yeah. The great UU jokes, and they love them more than any. anybody else. I'm not to get angry at us. It's okay. Tara, we've taken about as much time as we thought we had. Just wanting to first express, once again, just the gratitude for what you've cultivated in people's hearts, those listening in your own life.

It shines so clearly through. And when we were kind of polishing what we would focus the interview on, just your kind of really singling out what was most in people's hearts. And I think that's something that I've seen your teachings do continuously is really focus on where the first noble truth is for people and touching that. So thank you for that. And I wonder just for the last question, if you could, if you had one prayer for yourself right now and then for those listening, what would it be? The prayer would be to trust and basic goodness

trust Buddha nature trust the light love that lives through this being in all beings Tara we thank you so much and we hope we get you to see you in Seattle sometime if you ever buy it well I want to take a moment just to bow to what you're doing and

the whole rich and beautiful atmosphere of Clean Mountain Monastery because everything I've read and heard is that it's a beautiful offering to our world and your dedication and you're I just have to say your freshness

you know it's like you're both real and authentic and open-hearted and bright and wonderful so I'm just very delighted to meet you and know about what you're doing so we are we are friends He's realer than I am just for the record. You're freshered. You're more humble, right?

You're more humble. Thank you, Tarr. Thank you.