Tara Brach - Without Anxiety About Imperfection - featuring special guest, Haemin Sunim, with Tara Brach

Episode Date: January 25, 2019

Without Anxiety About Imperfection - featuring special guest, Haemin Sunim, with Tara Brach (2019-01-23) - Internationally known Buddhist teacher and writer, Haemin Sunim, talks about his new book - Love for Imperfect Things. Then, he and Tara talk together and respond to questions. Your support enables us to continue to offer these talks and meditations freely. If you value them, I hope you will consider offering a donation at this time at www.tarabrach.com/donation/. With gratitude and love, Tara

Greetings. We offer these podcasts freely, and your support really makes a difference. To make a donation, please visit tarabrock.com. It is my complete delight to welcome and introduce him and Sonam and blessings, and thank you so much for being here. Thank you for inviting me. Just a few words about him, and then I'm going to exit stage left. but Himman, I actually met him probably 15 years ago when I was just a young thing and he was teaching actually Buddhist teachings at Hampshire College and subsequently, Hemman's a teacher and author travels, teaches internationally

extremely well-known in Korea. His books have sold 3 million, 4 million copies, and we're talking about major, and we have the books here. The one that is most recent is Love for Imperfect Things, and I've read both of them, you're going to love this book. It's so beautiful.

It's got, it's completely accessible, like short pieces that are absolutely deep and beautiful and wise, and I really do love your book. So I just want to say, that it's really amazing to have a guest here that I've experienced as being so completely genuine and embodying the teachings of wisdom and love. And I know that you will enjoy this teaching you get tonight.

So again, thank you. Thank you so much for inviting me here. I've been watching this Dharma gathering from Korea through YouTube, and I never thought that I'll be here and meeting you. So it's such an honor. I'm very happy to be here. Before start, I was thinking maybe I can start out with a joke.

Would that be okay? Yeah? But I actually got it from the internet, so I... It's called, you are just like Frank. A man walked out to the street and catches a taxi just going by. He gets into the taxi and the cabby says, Perfect timing, you are just like Frank. And the passenger says, who?

And cabby says, Frank Furman. He's a guy who did everything right all the time. Like my coming along when you needed a cab, things happen like that to Frank Furman every single time. And passenger asked or said, there are always a few clouds over everybody. But Cabby said, not Frank Furman. He was good at sports.

He could have won the Grand Slam at tennis. He could golf with the pro. He sang like an opera singer and danced like a Broadway star. And he could have heard him play the piano. He was an amazing guy. And then passengers said, sounds like he was something really special. The cabby said,

there's more. He has a memory like computer. He remember everybody's birthday. He could fix anything. He also knows the quickest way to go in traffic and avoid traffic jam. Not like me. I always seem to get stuck

in them. But Frank, he never made any mistake. He really knew how to treat a woman and he never answered her back. even if she was in the wrong and his clothing was always immaculate, he was the perfect man. And then passenger said, amazing fellow, how did you meet him? And then Cabby said, well, I never actually met Frank.

He died, and I have the pleasure of being married to his widow. I'm so glad that you liked that joke. Yeah, perfect man, Frank. Yes. So I wrote a book called Love for Imperfect Things, and I wrote this book partly because I was inspired by one of the great Zen master's saying. It's according to Zen master, Sung Chan. He was a great Chan or Zen master in China back in 6th century.

It says true freedom is being without. anxiety about imperfection. True freedom is being without anxiety about imperfection. So I wanted to talk about this toward the end. I want to come around and talk about this and how we can actually become not so anxious about our own imperfection. But first, I thought that maybe I can ask this question.

You know, when do we start feeling that some of the things things that we, our, some aspect of ourselves, feeling that it's a problematic or imperfect. Let me say it again. You know, when do you start, when did we start feeling that some aspect of ourself is not perfect? It's problematic. We need to change. You know, when did you, when did we first feel that way? Probably, you know, we felt it when our loved one, you know, in this case, Franks, not Franks Berman's wife, you know, who's, you know, the cab is wife, she was keep on, you know, criticizing him, you know, telling him, you should do this, you know, how come you're not doing that, you know, things like that. So, you know, when we are young, sometimes our parents, you know, loved one, you know, mother or father, they can become very, you know, critical, and they can say, oh, this aspect of you need to change, this is not good, you know. And then, you know, we slowly, you know, because we are young, we didn't know any better, we internalize the voice of our critics, you know. So those critics, you know, they are usually very, very good at finding faults in other people.

And then so unknowingly we internalize. And then even though the critic is gone, we still feel that there is something wrong with me. Do you see what I'm saying? Yeah? So oftentimes, that kind of, you know, the voice of critics is in the, he or she loves to compare. you know, like in this case, the cabbie was compared to deceased, you know, the wife's husband's. Or, you know, your parents might, you know, compare yourself to your older brother or siblings or your cousins, you know, how come you are not behaving like the way your cousin is behaving, you know, things like that in nature.

So in order to overcome those kind of inner critics within us, then we sometimes set the bar really high, almost too high that we cannot actually overcome. We cannot actually realize that goal. And that goal is usually you set it not to satisfy ourselves, but to prove that we are worthy to your parents or somebody who have been very critical of you. So, you know, I was thinking that, however, you know, if we just really examine this, you know, idea of perfections or the ideas about imperfect things, you realize that, first of all,

it is just a thought, you know, it is just an idea. You know, this idea is in your head, and oftentimes it is not shared by everyone. You know, let me just give you one example. You know, when I was, like, two years ago, I was asked to do the radio show, you know, some kind of music DJ. You know what I'm saying? So I get to play all of my favorite meditation music. You know, I get to talk about, you know, all of my favorite author. So, you know, I said, oh, okay, maybe I'll do that.

And so on my first day of recording, you know, I remember, you know, one of my friends told me that when you speak in a low voice, you know, it sounds really nice, pleasing, and attractive, you know. So when I was, you know, recording my first, very first, you know, show, I tried very hard to speak very low, you know. But, you know, as I was doing it again and again, I realized that it wasn't, you know, good enough for me. So I keep telling my producer, I have to do it again, I have to do it again, you know. So after, you know, trying maybe four or five times, my producer said, with all due respect, we don't really care. You know, we cannot tell the difference, you know. Only difference is only in my head, it was in my head, you know. So I just, you know, realize that, you know, how many times do we exhaust ourselves just to get to the, you know, perfection, the idea that we had, you know?

Sometimes we do it at the expense of our relationship or our health, you know, or some of the happy things that we could have enjoyed, but we completely become like an almost neurotic. when it comes to just wanting to become very good at something. However, there are different way to deal with this kind of imperfection problems. So I would like to just bring a couple of examples. First one is we have to just accept that we are not in control. Like for example, you might be wondering why on earth, Hemin Sineem is wearing sunglasses. But because I was so, you know, looking forward to this moment.

And I, you know, however, right before, like two days ago, you know, I started having pink eye. So whenever I looked at my mirror, I looked like a villain character in a Marvel animation. So I thought maybe I should wear it. And also, on my way here, from my way here, New York I was in a subway and but somehow 6th Avenue the tunnel the water pipe you know broke so I have to make a really long detour and and then thereby I just missed my train you know so you know you know things like that happens right and that when things like that happens I think we always have a choice that is

you know where to dwell our mind so So for me, I try to do well, you know, try to see the bright side of this. So, for example, you know, as I was coming in, I was thinking to myself, you know, whenever I look at the Tibetan monk, you know, they get to wear sunglasses. Do you know that? Do you know that? But in Korea, it's like very strange, you know, monks are not, you know, if I were to wear sunglasses, I would be frowned upon, you know.

So this is my moment here, I felt like. I could just be a cool-looking monk, you know, looking like the neo character from, you know, the movie Matrix. Anyway. And then also, I know that when this symptom disappears in two, three days later, I know that I'll be very grateful. I know how wonderful that I don't have a illness anymore.

We took it for granted that our eyes will be healthy and clean all the time, but that is not the case. And also I'm very thankful that it is not something very serious kind of illness. It could have been flu, for example, and then I might have to cancel this event. And another thing about the missing my train was that as, you know, the train actually departs at noon, but when I got to Penn Station, I was literally 12.01. So I missed by one minute, right? So there I was.

I had a choice. You know, do I have to dwell on, you know, how, you know, imperfect this situation is, you know, or just find some bright side of this? So I was thinking to myself, well, you know, for the last, you know, two weeks that I've been in the U.S. because of the cold weather, I didn't get to do any kind of exercise. So for the last three, you know, avenue that I had to rush to get here, it was a kind of exercise, you know what I mean? I was drenched in sweat, and then my heart was beating really fast, and I felt like, wow, you know, this nature, you know, is telling me to exercise in a very funny way. And then, another thing that I noticed is because I had one hour, the next train depart at one, so all of southern I had one hour, and then I realized that I can actually go have

my favorite Mexican food, because in Korea it's very difficult to find really good Mexican food. So I found a nice Mexican restaurant and sat down and then order my favorite vegetable cassadilla. So I was savoring for one hour. So there are a lot of imperfect things going on in our lives. For example, when I first become a monk, my master, he wasn't exactly what I had in mind, you know. Because I thought that Buddhist masters are supposed to be very sincere and dedicated and, you know, very calm. But my master, you know, he turns out. out to be hot temper, and he loves to make a lot of jokes. You know, he wasn't very perfect,

you know. So at that time, when I became ordained, you know, back in 2000, I remember there was another monk, Korean monk. He and I, we became very close. So I would sometimes visit, you know, my friend, monk's temple. And then I would have to have a little. And then I would have to be a monk, we became very close. He and I would dinner together with his master, right? And then when I looked at his master, I was thinking to myself, oh my gosh, you know, this master is perfect, you know? He is sincere. He doesn't make any jokes, you know. He's very dedicated and serious, perfect, you know. How come I didn't get to have, you know, his master, you know? So I was a little bit envious, you know? And then time passed, you know, 10 years later, I met my friend Monk again out on Insadong in Seoul accidentally.

And then I said, oh, hi, it's so nice to see you again. How have you been? How's your master, you know, the perfect one, you know? And then my friend, monk, he said that I no longer in touch with my master. He said he distanced himself from his own master. So I was very, very perplexed, you know. I didn't know why, because your master to me was perfect. And he said, well, because he was perfect, he asked all his disciples to behave in a perfect way.

You know, and so he was keep nagging us. You know, you have to do this, you have to do that, you have to do this, you have to do that. So we felt very hurt, you know, and so I decided to leave my master. So that's what he told me. And then at that moment, I realized that my master is actually not too bad after all. Because his hot temper, there is actually a positive side to it, you know, if you look at it. That is, he does not hold grudges. You know, after he gets mad in the next morning, he often forgets all about it, you know.

And then he also often gave me a pocket money after he getting mad. And also because he wasn't perfect, he was so willing to forgive other monks. And some monks would come to my temple after having some kind of scandal. However, my master is okay, it's okay, you know, we are all human beings, we all make mistakes, you know. And therefore, my master, even though we live in a very small temple, we are living with the seven or eight different monastic together. You know, oftentimes with Buddhist nuns and monks together. And I realize that it is because of my master's imperfect aspects, which I realize later on. So I think we always have a choice, you know, when it comes to imperfect things.

You know, you can look at the brighter side or you can look at, you know, all the negative side. And if you were to dwell on the negative side, and of course you will feel your life is full of problems. One time after giving my talk, you know, one woman, she asked me a question, oh, Hemingseem, I don't know what to do, my husband. he is, he and I, we don't communicate very well because he doesn't listen to me, you know. He never, ever admits that he is wrong, and he would usually tell me what to do, you know,

but, you know, he doesn't want to talk very much, you know, so I don't know what to do. And then, exactly a week later, another woman, you know, she asked me a question, Heming's name, I don't know what to do, you know, My husband is too chatty, you know. He loves to talk, and he's worse than my girlfriends. You know, he's just always asking me how I feel.

You know, I just, I don't know what to do with this, you know. So I wish I can't. But the thing is, you know, when I asked a woman who had a problem, you know, communication problem, I asked her, you know, you've been married, you know, long time. How come when you first met him? you know, what was the attraction? And she said, well, when I first met him, he was, he appeared to me very manly, very protective, very masculine, you know, these are the kind of quality that I really, you know, felt, you know, attracted to.

But it is the same quality that also can be not so, you know, well, communicative, not listening to the end. You know, do you see what I mean? Yeah, it's the same aspect which has a two, you know, negative and the positive side. But we often forget that it has, you know, positive side. We just dwell on the problems. Yeah. And also, I would like to talk about when we are feeling a lot of imperfect things within ourselves, we sometimes identify ourselves with those flaws, those imperfect things,

while forgetting our true nature. One of the way to deal with imperfection, imperfect thing is, first, like the way I said earlier, we can look at the positive side, but second one is much more Buddhist ultimate solution that is to realize that you are not the imperfect things. you are the silent being that is aware of your imperfect things. You see the difference? You know, don't identify yourself with the imperfect things,

but you are the silent being observer or inner witness or awareness that knows your imperfect things. Oftentimes we just, you know, just ended up unconsciously. unconsciously just identify with some of the manifest aspect ourselves. However, our true nature, you know, what you know, what you know Buddha call our Buddha nature, is formless, it is unmanifest, it is free, and it is always here and now, and out of which many different aspects of our imperfect things might manifest, nevertheless, we we are not bound by those imperfect things.

So let's just do a quick exercise, if you can indulge me. That is, can you just feel, sense what your shoulder feels like? Can you feel and sense how your shoulder feels like? how your shoulder is now feeling. Yeah? Can you do that? Yeah? And then while you are feeling

that the sensation arising in your shoulder area, and now I also want you to have one thought. It can be any thought if you cannot decide which thought you have, then just say, let it be. So now you have a one thing. So now you have a one thing. thought and now you can also sense how your shoulder is feeling and now also become aware of my voice

which comes from from the outside of your body so now you can sense all three things the first thing is the sensation in your body and the second thing is a thought and third thing is the sound that is coming outside of your body. Then I would like to ask you this question that is between your thought and the sensation on your shoulder, is it happening in the same awareness or is it happening in two different awareness?

Is there any kind of wall or a curtain, dividing the awareness, that is the awareness of your thought and awareness of your sensation, or is this just one awareness field within this one awareness field that you are experiencing? And now, let's go one step further while you are listening to my voice and see if the voice is actually happening within the same awareness field or whether this is happening outside of your awareness field. If it actually happens outside of your awareness field, then you wouldn't be able to aware, become aware of this voice, right?

Because you are aware of this voice, it means it is within your awareness. And within this awareness, can you see if there is any divide between the sound, this perception of this sound, and the sensation of your shoulder? Do they happen within the same awareness field, or do they happen in the two? separate awareness field. Now you can open your eyes. So what did you discover? Were you able to feel that it is this one awareness field within which all the sensation, the perception, and conceptual thought all occur at the same time? Do you know what I'm saying? Do you understand what I'm trying to say? Yeah, yeah. So this is one aliveness, you know, if I,

or Tara's wonderful language, it is just one aliveness, one unify aliveness through from which all this different sensation and perceptions and this, you know, all this is all happening. But the thing is, you know, people, we tend to just focus on the manifest aspect, you know, the sensation or the thoughts or the, you know, the sound or the perception outside, whether it's a visual or audio, you know, while forgetting, while forgetting unmanifest this awareness field, you know, and that is our true nature. And that true nature has the characteristic of knowing, right? You know, you become aware.

However, whatever that you become aware of cannot taint or pollute that awareness field. Do you understand what I'm saying? Okay, to make it easier. So let's say just become aware of this space, okay? Let's say you just become aware of this space. And then I first put my phone here, right? And are you become aware of this phone? Yes, right?

And then I go like this, like this. Then are you become aware of my book? Right? Yeah. But if this awareness, you know, the object, the phone can actually pollute or taint the awareness, then when I did this,

some image of this phone has to appear here. some trace of the phone, you know, has to appear here on top of the book. Do you understand what I'm saying? Yeah, but when we, when I switch, you know, what happened? It completely, you know, erases, you know, and then it comes back and we can recognize a new object. In other words, there can be many different objects, popping out, manifesting out of that awareness field. However, whatever that object is,

even though you are very intimate with that object, you know, because you know you're very intimate with it. However, this object itself, no matter how imperfect it is, can never ever pollute or taint your Buddha nature. That's why you can become living like what this gem master, Sung Chan said, that is true freedom is being without anxiety about imperfections. So there can be lots of imperfect things. However, you know that your true nature, which is unborn, unmanifest nature,

can never die or can never be polluted or influenced by it. You are ever-present, free and loving and nurturing awareness. That's where your true home is. Okay, and I would like to invite Tara at this point. By the way, you know, this is my first time giving this kind of large, Dharma talk in English. So I'm very nervous, to be honest. So. I'm just trying to memorize your jokes. I think they're great. I want to use them.

And I was thinking of wearing sunglasses too, because I think it looks really cool, doesn't he? Well, I love what you're talking about, because as many of you know, and this is love for imperfect things, things that so much of what we always explore together is the suffering that comes from feeling that something's wrong with us. I mean, that's like you probably, is this in Korea too? Oh yes. Yes. Yes. Bad personhood, you know. And so I love that you're really exploring the strategies that wake us up from that. And when I listen to you, one of the things that really hits me, is that, you know, I feel like I have some mastery at facing imperfection.

Like, it's like, all my life, I feel like it's like so many rounds of being caught in this sense of failing and not knowing that I was caught in it and then having to go, oh, it's this again. So that's why I call it like a trance of unworthiness. And I'm wondering, does this still, do you still go through it? Do you still get caught and then have to go, oh, I'm in that one again, and then extricate?

Oh, yes. Yes, absolutely. Like, you know, sometimes when I am a little bit feeling blue, you know, a little bit depressed or something, I pick up my book and I read my book, you know, just to make sure that I get better, you know. So, yeah, so I talk about in my book that is, you know, one of the most difficult thing, you know, it's difficult, you know, it's difficult spiritual practice is actually, practicing what you preach. And there is a huge gap between the two. The initial awaken to your Buddha nature, what we just described, or during the meditation,

where you led us to, it's not too difficult. You can get there. But the problem is, can you live in that awareness all the time? You know, can you know that all the thing is without permanent. It is like a wonderful display of our Buddha nature.

So that brings up my question for you is when you get caught and it's hard to pay attention in a way that reveals the essential impersonality and change, how else do you work with yourself if you're feeling? really, really stuck? Do you ever have to really turn towards, you know, finding some self-compassion, and how do you do that? Yeah. First, I try to go back to my Boda nature. That is, whatever that is happening, it is actually not going to affect, you know, the ever-present our true self.

And then the second thing is, I try to understand the situation. Oftentimes we approach any kind of circumstance, situation, finding it very troublesome because we want to change the person or change the situation. But it is almost impossible, you know. Can you change your own child? even though you share the same DNA, it's almost very difficult to change your child. And then think about all other people with whom you never share any kind of DNA.

And yet we still try. We try to. And then so rather than trying to change other people, I try to understand and where this person is coming from. Why did he behave in such a way that hurt me? Another call to awakening is also whenever we feel any kind of pain or heartbreak, that's also a great opportunity for us to wake up. So has there been times when you've been caught in judgment of other people and it's been hard for you to be able to see what's causing them to do things in that way,

see how their pain is causing it. Yes. You know, I started this School of Broken Heart in Korea, and then after the success of my first book, I realized that I want to offer something back to my people in Korea. And so I began to offer many different great courses on, like, people who lost their loved one and people who just recently got divorced or young people who couldn't find a job, you know. So I wanted to offer many kind of therapeutic, you know, program for free. And then slowly, other, you know, people, they came together.

So now it's growing. However, right before coming to here, I noticed that there was a long complaint. There was one woman complaining, and then she was willing to even demonstrate in front of the School of Broken Heart. And basically accusing me that my therapeutic program actually hurt her, something like that. And so I was really, really surprised. And so I invited her immediately. and try to understand her. And then as I was talking, I realized that she thinks that her cell phone

was actually being tapped by the New York governor. I have no idea why she thinks that way. And then in order to solve that problem, the Korean president has to get involved. But because, however, she doesn't have any tied to Korean president. Therefore, by bothering me, somehow Korean president will get involved, and then he will talk to the New York governor, and then the New York governor will... You see what I mean? I realized what was going on.

She basically really, really believed her thought, and she believed this thought to be true. And as I was speaking more and more, the cause of that was that, you know, while she was very young, her father was really violent. And I think that was one of the reasons why she began to have that kind of problem. So once I had that kind of understanding, I began to feel a little more compassion. I'm really grateful that you shared that

because as I was asking, I was thinking that sometimes it's really clear. Somebody can do something and we can see, oh, that person's suffering, they're feeling themselves, not loved or whatever, but sometimes it's really hard to get down. And yet there's something about trusting that if you pay attention long enough, everybody that's causing suffering is in some way caught.

Right, right. They're in some way caught, and just knowing that actually creates a lot of space in terms of reacting. They are caught either in the memory. That's right. Like, you know, it can become a trauma, and they can never, they don't know how to unstuck. Yeah. And how to be unstruck. And then, or it caught in some kind of, you know, thinking, thoughts.

You know, this is the way you're supposed to do, but it's not happening. And so, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So I'm curious, do you teach meditation as part of broken heart? offerings? Yeah, we do offer meditation class. And some of the meditation is traditional, like a Biphasana poem, but some of them is much more body center, you know, like a dance program, you know, dance therapy, you know, meditation. I think it is important that we listen to our own body because our body is where we meet our own.

consciousness, you know, I feel that. So if you just let your body, you know, move, like the way it wanted to move, then it comes to a point to where you can actually release, you know, some of those experience are being caught. And we were talking about this earlier, about how in the West we say that your issues are in your tissues, you know, which is a great saying because it means that we can't bypass our body. And so I love that it's what's so amazing about when I talk to him and sense how what we're exploring is happening all globally. This way of waking up that it's really through the body and waking up the heart and being with the vulnerability. And it's exactly what you're doing in your programs.

And I think, you know, even after the initial awakening, what happened is our habitual tendency to tense up, you know, through our body, that's what's causing us from living in the truth, living in the, you know, awareness. Yeah, that as soon as we get tense, it generates more tense thoughts that go back to tense body. And we just automatically identify ourselves with our body, and we cannot, you know,

even though I know, even though I feel that sometime, however, our body is saying something else. That's right. And we believe that. Right. Now, I want to say that the frame you put this in, to be without anxiety about imperfection has been one of my guiding lights for the last, like, 30 years or whatever.

And I'm wondering maybe if there are questions that others might have, just sensing what's been shared with you, and this whole invitation to learn to be with imperfection because really our home, our true home, our true nature can't be stained by that. them and the freedom that comes with that. And if there's any questions that come up for you, and I don't know if we have a mic nearby, this is calling on our handheld mic,

but then we can hear our question or... Yes. Could you share your thoughts on the relationship of Mara to what you've been talking about and imperfection? Relationship to Mara. Yeah, how... Yeah, what you're. your thoughts on Mara in relation to imperfection?

I think you know you can overcome Mara, you know, when you realize that Mara is actually manifestation of your true nature. If you objectify Mara, you know, as evil or something that is wrong and we have to remove, you know, things like that, then the battle will continue. However, if you actually sit down and just allow the mara and then realize that actually the mara is coming out of the same one single awareness field.

You know, it is the interplay of our mind in the whole life experiences. And then if you can become awakened to that, then no matter what kind of mara appears to you, you will not be bother, you'll feel at ease. I'm curious how many of you do not know who Mara is. Oh, sorry. I had a feeling, so... So the Mara is right before the Thurkehambunni Buddha become awakened,

this temptation, all this, the king of, how can I say, the kings, sent to tempt Shukkhamuni Buddha away from his awakening you know so at first you know this king of Mara

he sent very beautiful women and then later on he sent whole troops and then later on the same image of him and then asking who do you think you are that kind of do you understand so Mara in a ways

what we sometimes call the shadow side. It's like all the greed, hatred, delusion, anything that we get identified with that makes us smaller. And it's not that the greed arises, it's just, it's not that we have lust or wants that causes a problem. The problem is then we get identified and we think we have to have and that we are the wanting creature. So we can let everything arise as long as we don't get identified and lose sight of. I mean, the Buddha's deepest teaching is we suffer when we forget who we are. And that's the challenge of Mara, but Mara, as you say, can be worked with. You can have tea with Mara because you don't have to get identified.

Exactly. Yeah. So any other questions? Hi. Thank you very much for being here. I was wondering if you have any very practical advice for when a person spirals down in focusing very much on their imperfection and they're not able to necessarily separate that imperfection from their true nature. Like what emergency kid. Band-Aid would you suggest to help break apart that spiraling down? I don't know exactly what aspect of imperfections that person is feeling, but if I were you, I would point out that, you know, ask some rational questions, you know. Are you sure this is some of the really, you know, negative aspect of you?

If you look at it from that direction, I think it has some positive side to it, and within your own capacity, you have done as much as you can, you know. So I think what you have done is actually pretty it's wonderful in that sense. So I would try to shed light on some of the positive side so that he can think differently.

They're looking at the same situation, from another interpretations. Notice that our human life is a whole series, just nothing but a series of interpretations, depending on how you interpret it, you can accept the things as it is, or you will feel miserable while resisting what is. And I'll add on, because it's great to have,

in a way, these are the two wings, because this is the wing of wisdom, of really seeing clearly, this is not me. And look at where the goodness is. And then there's the wing of the heart side. And I can say for myself, I have gotten caught in feeling the trance of unworthiness at times when I felt like really selfish and I felt like I just was not coming through for people. And it is very hard for me to sense Buddha nature that there was a goodness there.

And that was really painful. feeling this kind of intrinsic, you know, something's wrong feeling, really flawed. And it was in feeling the pain of that, like how much that hurt and then realizing how many moments in my life I had been kind of caught in that sense of something's wrong and how that had kept me from feeling intimate with others, it had kept me from enjoying the sunset. those moments of that suffering, something in me tenderized and so I could start to say, it's okay, sweetheart. It's okay.

And even if you don't feel the self-compassion, fake it. Go through the motions because sometimes just putting your hand on your heart and speaking to the place in you that is not able to feel Buddha nature, it softens something and what actually happens is the self-sense to. starts losing its hard edges and there's a softening and you start inhabiting a bigger space and then you can see from the wisdom side much more clearly, oh, that's just that same character of self I've been identifying with all these years and there is something more and you can start shining the light just the way Hyman was talking about.

So sometimes you have to go into the compassion side where you just go, ouch, this hurts. It's okay, honey. That's why there's the beauty of these different teachings that there are, as the Buddha said, how many, like 86,000 different pathways, and we find out what works at any given moment, and we have to really stay flexible because there's no one formula that's going to always work in any moment. It's great to do tag team, isn't it? Yes, yes, yes. I can do wisdom side, and you can do compassion side.

And then we'll try to flip it, right? Yes, yes. So I think it's just a follow-up on the same question. Like how to, when you have anxiety on yourself or you experience anxiety from other, and you need to somehow calm yourself as well. You want to maybe have compassion to yourself and to other people that you have conversation with. So the only twist in this question would be what kind of how to you think is appropriate in business settings. So you have a meeting and you know you have your own anxiety or another person has his own anxiety now,

but you still want to continue conversations about specific business topics. What appropriate measure we can have? For example, if you have your hand and your heart, I don't think it's pretty much accepted in the business meeting. What else we can use? You know, it's funny how much you can get away with in business meetings. But for me, I have to in some way start with myself before I can begin to open a space and really sense what the others going through. I have to have in some way breathe. I usually breathe into the place in me that feels vulnerable and you can kind of do that anywhere.

nobody knows. So breathe in with it and in some way send a message of kindness or understanding inward and it very quickly, there's kind of a magic, if you even remember the idea to be kind, just remembering that that's even your intention to be kind toward yourself or another, because your nature is kindness, it starts waking up automatically. So you can do it without any major grand dramatic gestures. I hope that kind of response to what you're asking. And I can't see you because the light's glaring. But anyway, thank you. We had one more, and then I think we're going to have to close. Thank you so much. Many of the conversations I've been having with my friends these days is about the loss of hope that we're seeing around the world these

days. And we're seeing countries go into dictatorships, totalitarian regimes, the environment is going a mess. And we're all trying to figure out what is our roles as individuals within this situation. How do we act mindfully in making that change

without being caught up in anger, fear, frustration, anxiety. So it talks about basically the imperfection of the world that we're living in. So I'm wondering if you have any tips or thoughts on how we as individuals, mindful,

try to change the world that we're living in. I think one of the things we have to remind ourselves is, you know, everything that we are experiencing right now is impermanent. It's not going to last. Trump is not going to last. So, you know, just impermanence has a hope, you know, the built-in hope. so to speak.

So if you are experiencing something incredibly negative, just remind yourself that it's not going to last. But on the other hand, I think what you are asking is really good questions. We do want to walk into the society and then bring all the great, wonderful practice where we've been doing it into the reality, you know. But sometimes we get caught in anger and frustrations.

So I think when I feel that way sometimes, you know, what I try to do is I remind myself, you know, what is my intention here, you know? And just to realize that my intention is to see more compassionate and more loving, you know, society, for example, then I should connect to that intention. And from that intention, out of that compassion, out of that loving kindness, I would go out and work. And if you do that, you can work for a long time. But if you are fighting for something out of your anger, out of your

bitterness, then, you know, what happened is after two or three years of, you know, active participation, you yourself will become burnout and you will be disillusion about the whole movement and you will, you know, you'll be wondering, okay, we want, you know, all the things that we wanted. However, you know, it didn't turn out exactly what I had in mind. You know, I am so disappointed about all those people we've been working together in this movement, you know, and you begin to hate them. You see what I mean? So you have to come in. out of your, the intention of your compassion and intention of heart, intention of goodness, I don't know how to say it.

You're saying it, yeah. I just want to, you know the word piggyback? Like, I think that's so right on that we want to serve a world a world that is going towards healing, justice, freedom, and it won't work if we bring the same energy to try to make the change that's already the aggression that is causing so much suffering. And I feel angry a lot of days about what's going on. I mean, here we have the government's been shut down.

I have friends and friends of friends that are really having a hard time. And so it gets me angry and it gets me angry how come it's shut down. I mean, it's a kind of like, I can't, it's kind of a horror almost and I'm angry about a lot of stuff and so I let the anger be there but I don't stop there. I keep going, I keep paying attention to what's under the anger which as you said, under the anger there's caring. I care about this world and if I don't stop at the anger but get down to what's under it, Then out of that caring, I can speak, I can write, I can engage wherever it seems helpful.

So thank you for that. It's the intention deep down that we need to get to and I think you said it beautifully. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. And thank you for your questions and again on behalf of all of us a deep bow. Thank you for being with us.

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