Tech Brew Ride Home - (Bonus) Jay & Farhad Show Reunion #3

Episode Date: November 9, 2019

Hello! @jyarow and @fmanjoo are back! Sponsors: Castro.fm Molekule.com and enter "ride10" at checkout Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

On April 4th, 2023, around 2 in the morning, a man was found stabbed multiple times on a sidewalk in downtown San Francisco. Hey, who did this to you? What happened next turned the story into a political firestorm. Reports have identified the victim as Bob Lee, the founder of Cash App. From Bloomberg Podcasts, this is Foundering, the Killing of Bob Lee, beginning April 16. Welcome to another weekend bonus episode of the Tech Meme Right Home. I'm Brian McCullough. It's been about six months, but the boys are back in town.

CNBC's Jay Yarrow, Farhad Manjou from the New York Times, reunited once again to kick around some things that have been happening in the world of tech. Please enjoy. I mean, compared to how you sound, he sounds like he's just on a phone. It just sounds like tinny. I am on a phone. Well, I know. That's what I'm.

You don't sound like one of the hosts of the program. You sound like the caller. Well, guess what? I am not the host of the program. That's true. So far, you're two for two. You are two for two. It's, yeah.

All right. Since we've dinked around, Jay, Jay, do the honors. You know what the honors are. Hello! Wait, you said to do the honors. I did the honors. Am I, and now? Yes.

Do it again. Hello, it's the Jayne Farrid show, sort of. I'm Jay Arrow. I'm thinking of editor at CBC. You are. I'm Friad, Manjou, a columnist at the New York Times, and we're not, this is not actually our show. Yeah, and I'm Brian. This is my show.

We're going to spare you all of the Skype, Michigas that we just had to go through. Which is the reason we don't do a podcast anymore. Exactly. Which is why, yes, Jay does sound like he's on a phone because he is. Let me get right to it because Jay, I think you wanted to ask first of all. By the way, for the first time, you always recommend it, I do no prep for this at all, so I've done no prep. Great. But the last thing I heard from Jay was that he wanted to ask Farhad about his California column.

So let's tee that up and get going. Oh, okay. Sure. I thought that the column was interesting. You basically wanted to tell us what it is. You said California is over, right? I say California's over, yeah. I mean, it does feel like it's over.

There's smoke in the air. There's less smoke today. There was some smoke over the weekend. You know, fires every year, housing affordability, like homelessness. Traffic is so bad. I moved to the Bay Area from Southern California because traffic was unimaginable there and you had to drive two hours all the time to get anywhere. And now it's like that in the Bay Area.

And like, I just get the sense that people, companies, like, just new workers, everyone is, like, much more skeptical of California than in the past. And, like, these fires every year get people really thinking about, I think, whether this is a good place to live. I mean, my job and my wife's job and, like, our kids' school is tied to this place, like, in a kind of semi-permanent way. but not your job anymore yeah not my job anymore I mean it's true I feel I mean since I have been doing this

opinion job like I have been thinking more about leaving California we're still like I feel like we'll be here for at least a few more years but it doesn't it doesn't feel like the most livable place anymore it feels like you're just like on this treadmill

to make to make money to pay off the mortgage for your like a small, tiny house where everything else is in, like, there's fires all around you. It doesn't feel great. Where would you go? I don't know. That's the thing. I feel like New York seems really fun, but it's... I've said many times on this show, the amount of people, including Gabe Rivera, who, you know,

I didn't convince him to come to New York. He came to New York for other reasons. But the amount of people that I know from the Bay Area in the last three years that have come to New York, The other places that a lot of people that I know from the Bay Area have gone are like Austin and L.A. actually, but, you know, you can have fire as there too. L.A., I grew up in Southern California. I don't have a great, it's pretty. It's nice, and the weather's nice, but other than that, I'm not a big fan. Austin seems really cool. I mean, I think I would consider Austin. I would also consider, like, Seattle, which has similar problems to the Bay Area, but it seems to be solving them in a better way. the Bay Area just seems like stuck in this kind of structural way. People still want to come and live here, but like, I don't know how much longer that's going to last.

But, I mean, the question is, like, just to bring it around to, like, is there a tech angle to this sort of thing? I mean, you know, I've been in the industry for 20 years, and I've been hearing that the Bay Area is too expensive and it's over and there's going to be. Actually, I did an interview with Steve Case this week about Rise of the Rest. And so this idea that, you know, one of these days, you don't have to do a startup in Silicon Valley. But, I mean, again, that's one of those things that I've been hearing for 20 years. Yeah, I mean, I think that's right.

I've been hearing that for a long time, too. And, like, we've done stories in the Times and elsewhere about all these different cities around the country that have been, that have tried to build, you know, Silicon Valley's for themselves. And they haven't gone, you know, extremely well. I don't think it's going to happen like that. I feel like what's going to happen is you're going to have, perhaps not like other Silicon Valley's, just sort of more business activity, like more satellite offices, everything else kind of going to other places. I mean, all the big tech companies are doing that now. They have enormous offices outside of the Bay Area. And, you know, some of the companies, like, I think Slack, this may be not true anymore, but, you know, when Slack started, Slack was, like, based in Vancouver and San Francisco.

and Stewart spent a lot of his time as Vancouver. I feel like more and more companies might do that kind of thing where they split places for headquarters like Amazon was supposed to do. Yeah, we chase them out of here. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I don't think it'll be like one other place, but I think that there's just so much kind of difficulty about the Bay Area that people will slowly start to think of, you know, alternatives.

And they may not be one other alternative, but just, you know, a bunch of different places. Jay, I've got a question for you in a second, but Farhad, I have a question about the column about Mark Zuckerberg and maybe why not retire. Yeah. Because I've been thinking about this a lot lately, and I've said it on the show in two ways. Like, I specifically said, why are they trying to do Libra? Like, why do they need this?

Yeah. Why do they need to lean into things that people, that are going to be controversial? But then the larger point that obliquely I've said is like, you know, it's kind of, it's kind of cheap. It's kind of like, well, why don't you just go buy an island and, you know, live off your billions forever? But at the same time, you know, I think maybe, you know, I think Gates stepped down. Maybe he was 10 years older than Zuckerberg. But I genuinely wonder, like, why does he still need to push this vision of whatever it is he thinks Facebook needs to be? Haven't they won?

That's how I feel. Well, I mean, I think one problem with Facebook is they think that they haven't won. I mean, I feel like the major difference between Facebook and Google and how they think about themselves is Facebook still thinks about themselves as kind of this underdog. Like the way when you talk to them, they think about themselves as kind of being, you know, the company they were 10 years ago. And I don't think that they realize that the world sees them differently. And I feel like the reason they do all these things is they just don't understand that they're just. size and power, and like, I guess you could say perceived size and power, because if they don't agree, but is their biggest liability? Like, I think the Libra thing could work if it was, you know,

pushed by any other company, like Visa or Master Guard or just like, and Zach said that in Congress, yeah. Right. It's just, it's just like any association with Zuckerberg himself, with the brand. And like, I don't think he can change that. Like, I think that the Larry Page strategy, just as a business strategy, just seems much smarter, like kind of go away, be in the background and put out people that you don't like no one knows like Sundar as your as like your business managers and that really i mean google is a bigger company it has kind of arguably more political power more obviously more power in the ad business um and you know facebook is the one that gets like uh all the attention from the media from lawmakers um i think that really has to

do with how kind of front and center and um aggressive facebook strategy has been, just kind of calm strategy, like, you know, marketing public relations regulatory strategy has been. Jay, don't you think, I know this is an impossibility for, you know, the reasons that we all know about, you know, voting rights and things like that, if Zuckerberg and Sandberg were both to step down in 2020 and like, it was like, okay, this is a new generation, you know, we're approaching 20 years of this company. It would be over 15 years.

don't you think that that would like maybe like be amazing for the stock in a way? No. Yeah, I don't think that'd be amazing. Okay, well go ahead. Go ahead, Jay. Tell me why. I think that the company has, what was it, like 28% year-over-year revenue growth. I think Mark Zuckerberg, you got it.

You know, he is the founder. He's been there. He built Facebook. He had the foresight to acquire Instagram for a billion dollars. He had the foresight to attempt to acquire Snapchat for only $3 billion. He had the foresight. You can argue maybe it's foresight. Maybe it's too late.

But he had the drive to copy Snapchat and essentially kind of mitigate their strengths. He had the kind of insight to go get WhatsApp. And so I think I think he's done a good job stewarding the company. I think he has sort of the moral authority to do things like Libra, which for the most part I don't really

understand, but he has the moral authority to kind of push forward and push them into new terrain, go by like Oculus, like take those big swings. So I don't really see how it would be a huge positive. From a Like you guys, most people have a concern around messaging and whatever with Facebook communication.

I'm not sure a new CEO, you know, what has he done fundamentally that's mismanaged the operations of the business? Yeah, I mean, I think you make a great argument. Like the best argument you may make for Zuckerberg and Sandberg, just for the current management of Facebook is the financial performance and the stock. performance over this very, very, uh, sort of scandalous, like bad media time. Like, they've just done incredibly well. I mean, on the one hand,

they're a monopoly in social networking. They're, a near monopoly in the in the ads business, you know, or a duopoly with Google. Like, they, they have a lot of built-in advantages, but those advantages came, you know, they're not a

very old company and the advantages came as a result of Zuckerberg's own, uh, you know, own efforts. And so I think that they're doing really well. He's like, by all traditional metrics, he's doing really well as a CEO other than like the world hates him. And like the world hates him, I think is a long-term problem. Like it's a long-term...

I would also say, I would say, why do you think the world hate him? When I see the world hates him, I mean like all regulators, all lawmakers. Like every... Why do, like, why do lawmakers hate him? They hit him because he's at the center of like all politics. Like he's made like his platform is like he's made himself sort of the target for Republicans who claim that he is biased against them and for Democrats who claim that he's not like tamping down on lies. And like that's an impossible situation for him to get around. And like the long term problem with that is like.

So I mean, do you think it's fair? Are either of those criticisms fair? I think that both of them, there's some. I think that the Republican criticism of him, of Facebook being biased towards Republicans, is, like, false, demonstrably. But I think there's a large base in America that believes it. And, like, that's sort of all that matters. Like, the problem for Facebook is, like, they have, they face. Is that all that matters?

Yeah. Because, like, whoever wins the next presidential election, there are, you know, like, nearly all the states going after Facebook. the Justice Department, the FTC, like the Instagram merger and like Instagram is being part of Facebook is crucially important to them. I don't know if they can survive sort of increasing political pressure in the U.S. around the world. Like I think that's the long-term problem because like stemming from everyone hates Mark Zuckerberg. So yeah. On to that end, let me pose a counterfactual that I'm not sure. that I actually believe in. And also, there will be a ton of reasons you could shoot this down. But

let me throw this at you. Let's say that the reason that they want to do Libra is because even if it hasn't happened yet and is not showing up in the numbers, they know that, you know, it's the law of large numbers in a way. They can only grow with population eventually at some point, unless they create a new business line, right? Number two, let's imagine that there's a Democratic administration coming in 2020. Obviously, you know, there's regulatory issues all around the world as well. So what if 2020 was a year to like Gates did at Microsoft, say, and again, this is one of the, this is one of the, why it's not a great analogy, we're going to hand it over to the next generation. He ended over to Steve Palmer that wasn't the best. But you know what I'm saying? Like, this would be a good pivot time to say generationally, the company's doing great. It's never been better. But what I know is, is that we need new blood and new ideas and a new generation in here to take it to the next 15 to 20 years. Yeah, I mean, I don't even know if you, the way you're characterizing it is sort of like step down, but he's like, he could just remain. No, step back because remember Gates didn't step down.

He was still, yeah. It hits GTO, right? And I think that's the kind of thing he could do. He could just sort of be, not be the public face in the way that he is. Find yourself a Sundar or a Satya or somebody, yes. Yeah. I mean, any, any, you know, he has like capable people running, like Instagram running, um, running, the messenger, like, running various parts of the business.

And he could do that for, like, Facebook itself, for, like, the larger company. I think that's, like, a totally doable. I mean, and it's a strategy that just has worked really well for Google in terms of, like, regulatory risk. So I, I mean, I don't know, like, another strategy for them is to just keep doing what they're doing because, like, that could work equally well. So, I don't know. Like, we in the press, like, harp on them. And then every three months, they return a stellar earning. So we could all be wrong. Go ahead, Jay.

Oh, no. I just agree. I just don't see any reason for him to step aside. I really don't see any reasons. Well, and also, it's all academic because he doesn't have to do anything he doesn't want to. speaking of people that didn't have to give up control unless they were paid a billion dollars Jay I know you're not necessarily super at 100% clued into Wall Street but you're closer than Farhad and I are curious about what you're you might you might actually be physically closer aren't you in like that's true but anyway that's true yeah I'm right right on the water so yeah exactly So the we work thing, are you getting the sense that, you know, there's been a lot of hand-wringing about like, well, it's blown up the whole idea of all of these unicorns coming to market, or maybe a certain kind of unicorn, like the whole hand-wringing about like, oh, everyone discovered unit economics and gross margins all of a sudden.

And then just this week, I've been seeing a lot of stuff about, like, people concerned trolling about Airbnb's IPO. Have you been able to detect, like, an attitude change, a sentiment change about these unicorns coming to market on Wall Street? What I would say is that, so I've been thinking about this a little bit, I think the first one of these that really kind of was the, I guess you'd say Canary and the coal line, if I'm using that cliche properly, would be blue apron. If you remember Blue Apron, it was valued as a technology. company. It had like a tech multiple and it had venture capitalists. It went public and essentially lost 90% of its value right off the back because people are like, you have an app, big deal. You're just like this food delivery service and you've got to buy all your customers and it's unsustainable and we don't see an out on that. And then since then,

we've had Lyft, we've had Uber. Obviously we work couldn't get out the door. but you know Slack has been crushed Pinterest I think today it's down something like 20% so it's back to

either below or near its IPO pricing well and even the ones that have been doing well so far like Shopify and Twilio and people like that

they've been so anyway go ahead anyway anyway anyway I would say and I should know this better than I do,

but I think more broadly, in terms of the market, there's been a shift towards profitability, towards companies that earn profits, and it's not just about, like, growth. And you can look at, like, Netflix has had a bad year for its stock. I think it might be, like, it was up, but it's, like, really pulled back from where it was.

So there's just been a broader shift, like, at a market level to these companies that kind of, like, were, growing but not making money and then the idea is like eventually like they're sort of you had a green light to do that. Yeah, so Netflix is slightly up for the year, but it's well down from like its highs. And I think that that comes back, that boomerangs back to these unicorns who are in that same bucket. So I think broadly the market has been a little bit wary of just that sort of company. But I think each company has its own case to be made to the market. And so we'll see what Airbnb says.

But I think you've got to have some level of, like, we have a plan, we're going to earn, we're going to earn money, et cetera. Like, there has been a slight shift in sentiment. But that said, these companies are just, like to say there's a shift in sentiment about the unicorns would indicate that a ton of unicorns had been going public and everything that's going well. I don't know that any of these, like most of them haven't done well. Yeah, I feel like there's, I feel like there's only one story here and that story is

soft bank. Like the story here is that all the, all the, um, private unicorns just got hugely bit up because there was this huge pool of money that was pouring into all of them, either from SoftBank or from others trying to compete with SoftBank level money. And that just drove up their private valuations higher than they could sustain in a public market. Like, I mean, that happened with Uber, like SoftBank and the Saudis were like the last money into Uber. It happened obviously with WeWork and like they could even sustain that IPO.

I think that, and I just don't understand, like, what they're going to do with their vision fund, too, if that ever comes around. Because, like, the idea of putting all this money into startups that just, like, have some vague relationship to the tech industry or maybe even, like, our good ideas, but not, like, you know, $47 billion good ideas. That's just, I feel like that time has passed, or like, the record of that kind of investing just seems very bad right now. So I don't really know what they're going to do next. I'm, like, super interested in kind of the, like, post-soft bank, like, startup story.

Yeah, and that kind of gets back to what Jay was saying. It's like maybe what investors, public investors at least, have completely soured on is the idea that you can bring anything to market and you just say, oh, it's a tech company. Wait, it's a tech company that only just rents offices, or it's a tech company that only delivers food? Like, how is that a tech company? Like, maybe that's the sort of shine that people have been trying to put on these unicorns that maybe no one's buying. Yeah, I think that's right. I mean, I think that, like, many of these are tech companies in the way we would think of tech companies maybe 10 years ago or so. But, like, everything is a tech company now.

Like, The New York Times is a tech company. Like, we have, like, I think, I think in a way that sort of sheen of like, oh, we make software to run our business or we, like, optimized by software, like, that's just sort of like what businesses do now. And it's no longer just sort of a special thing that, like, you know, requires, like, that will earn some huge valuation. Like, I think that's. But the point is, is right. Every company is a tech company at this point, you know, even Ford is a tech company at this point, right? But the point is, is that then everyone. was trying to use that to justify software multiples or SaaS multiples or something like that.

And maybe that's, maybe that's, it's as simple as that is people are like, no, you're still a car company. You're still a real estate company. I mean, that doesn't apply to like, you mean, like doesn't apply to Slack, for example. Like Slack's problem, I think is that they face, are, they're facing like Microsoft as a competitor. I don't think it applies to like Pinterest, for example. Like Pinterest's problem maybe that they're, you know, there are a lot of. competitors in the ad market and like the social networking market. Like I think that for some of these startups,

the problem is that they face like big tech companies and big tech companies seem to be like, you know, doing better than ever. And that's another problem. The, we're recording this November 1st. So Apple TV Plus is live right now. So I guess this is the first major shot in the streaming wars. Jay, I'm going to ask you this first. Are you getting a little more bearish on Netflix's situation in this?

Go ahead. No, I'm more, I mean, I tweeted this out a while ago, and the stock has gone down since then, so do with this what you will. I remain, if I were a person who bought stocks, I would buy Netflix. but that doesn't mean anyone listening to this should listen to me because I have no idea what I'm talking about. You could argue. Wait, what's your theory? Why?

Well, my theory is that Netflix has a, like, my theory is that Netflix shares are perhaps being, like, big down because of this great fear of Disney Plus, Apple Plus. You know, I work for Comcast and they have Peacock coming and HBO Mac. So there's all these like services that are coming online. I think it is much more, you know, I think if you look at the reviews of the first batch of Apple shows, they're not good. I think making TV shows is very difficult. Making like, well, making entertaining TV shows is very difficult. And so I think you're going to have this, you have this blast of activity coming forward in this period.

This time next year, and then you look at what Netflix did. They signed people like Sondra Rhymes and who's the other guy, Ryan Murphy, and then they signed the Game of Thrones guys. So while all these other, these companies were trying to get their service off the ground with one or two shows, Netflix went and hired all the talent that make some of the most popular shows. if you look at the lead time on that, by the time, this time next year, all of those services, Disney Plus,

HBO Max, Apple TV, will have been in market for a year. I'm not sure where they're going to be in terms of their programming development cycle, but all that talent that Netflix paid, all those programs are going to either be ready to come online or start getting teased. So you're going to have this profusion of new programming

from some of the best showrunners in the business, while the other guys are probably, reloading into their content cycle. So that's going to be, I think, a tailwind for Netflix. Netflix is already global and has a lot of room to run in terms of understanding local markets and local language. And they just have a huge lead time on all of these guys. And frankly, this is like maybe kind of silly, but there's an option value in the idea

that Netflix has been so out on a limb on this, like so ahead of everyone. There's been nobody for it to clone and copy. So let's just say Disney and Peacock and everyone comes online with stuff, someone's going to have a good idea that Netflix hasn't thought of, and Netflix will be able to copy it a la Facebook with Snapchat. And that will hopefully, you know, not hopefully, but that would strengthen the Netflix service. So, you know, I don't know what the quote-unquote total addressable market is.

I think that Netflix has something like 160 million subscribers. I don't know how much bigger it gets. Oh, my other part of my bull case on Netflix is that Netflix, also from a revenue perspective has never really dug into advertising. And I think it will have an opportunity to turn on the advertising revenue engine at some point the way Amazon has. I know advertisers are desperate to get in there and target that audience. I don't think it's going to be like your, you know, standard, like a pre-roll or an interstitial. There'll be some clever way that they interject advertising.

So I think that they can turn on advertising and generate a ton of revenue. So in closing, the argument is, There's a little bit of a dampening because all these services are coming online. I think once the dust settles on that, we're going to see that Netflix programming is probably more robust and arguably better. We will see Netflix have new programming coming soon from some of the best showrunners, which will be a thing that spurs sign-ups. And I think they have an ability to turn on more revenue engines through advertising.

And then hopefully, well, not hopefully, but there's an optionality of learning from others. Yeah, I pretty much totally agree with Jay. this is a disappointing Jay and Farhadi reunion because we are not fighting. You're not fighting, no. Yeah, I think that's mostly right. I think that the other thing is Netflix is doing really well internationally, both like in subscriptions but also in the kinds of programming they're doing. And that's like a really interesting strategy that I don't think any of the others are doing.

Like they're making programs in different countries for those markets. They're then being shipped around to different markets. And that, like, adds this huge, I don't know, novel kind of programming and gives them this bonus for all the markets. No one else is doing that. Also, I was surprised at how expensive HBO streaming service is going to be. I suspected that the Apple shows wouldn't get good reviews, but I was, like, surprised at the, like, everyone is saying that they're bad. and that's like, I mean, the thing about the Apple streaming service is it's going to be free for iPhone users and pretty cheap for the first year. So they're going to, you know, they're going to get like platform advantages there and like kind of like Apple music in its first year.

They'll probably get a ton of signups just because they're part of the, just part of the Apple ecosystem. So I don't really. But for, you know, for Apple, for many of the other companies, these are sort of like add-on services. For Netflix, it's like the whole thing. It's their whole business. And that also gives them an advantage. I'm, yeah, I agree. I think Netflix is a winner.

I'm super, I'm actually super bearish on Apple TV Plus on the near term. But like you said, for them it's not existential. For everyone else, it's existential. With the exception of maybe Disney, you know, and like literally my kids have wanted to buy the live action Lion King, or well, live action in quotes or whatever. And I'm like, no, we're waiting. we're waiting until we can you know so there's already sort of like that

sort of Osboard effect with with Disney content real quick Jake I'd also add it I'd just add that it's not zero sum like right and you can have Netflix and I think all of these services are you know there's I think we're doing a story on it right now

but others have pointed this out like they're all kind of free in some way shape or form like the it's Disney, right, is going to be free for Verizon if you have an unlimited plan. And somebody's free on AT&T, yeah. Yeah, Apple sells millions of devices, new devices, and if you've got a new iPhone 11, you'll get the Apple TV thing free from the first year.

Peacock is kind of an add-on to your carrier, but it's also going to be ad-supported, so that'll make it pretty cheap or maybe even free. And then what's the other one? HBO, like if you subscribe to HBO now, like, it's basically you should just sign up for Mac because it's the exact same price, but more stuff. So the price on this stuff

is all zero, or can be zero for a lot of people, but it is not a zero sum. It is not either you have Netflix or you have Disney Plus. They can be added in. Let me compliment her. Just real quick because Farhad, you want to say by before you go?

Yeah, I got to go. I got to go to my live chat on Twitter. Great, great, great. All right, Jay, I've got, thank you, Farhad, by the way. Thank you. Jay, I want to, let me, let me poke back once, and then I'll let you go, too. Because this is stuff that, like, Matthew Ball has talked about. This is something that, you know, the Watch podcast has talked about.

The idea that in the end, what the streaming services, at least what Netflix has been for a certain generation is, like, forget about, like, the, the, the shows that get you to sign up, oh, I got to see the watchman, or I got to see whatever this new show is. It's really just, I want to watch, you know, the friends or the office, but also, you know, like South Park and Simpsons and things like that. And so the bearish case, which again, I thought all of, I agree with you. I thought all your points were great. But the bearish case for Netflix is essentially the spine is being taken out of the main use case for TV for people, which is on in the background while I'm doing my homework, while I'm doing

the dishes while I'm making dinner, whatever. And so in a way, the challenge is, is that what you're saying, they've got all of these creators, but it's not there yet, right? And so what happens if you have this two or three year in Aregnum where the basic just put it on in the background Netflix won't have for you? Well, I mean, I don't know if you're just spitball in that, if there's data to support the idea that people just put it on the background while they're doing and are doing homework. It's the cotton candy make me feel good. I don't really want to...

What you're saying is, is like these appointment television shows, they're like exciting. I want to be challenged or whatever, but most people just want something to occupy them until they've got to go to sleep. Netflix has the office for all of 2020 still. They did just get the rights to Seinfeld.

and if they have stuff like Shits Creek, which fits into that. So if the idea is, and I would say, like, if the idea is, like, I just want to put something on the background and don't really want to pay attention to it, like, how good does it really need to be? So Netflix has a lot of programs that can fit into that, and they've developed a lot. I agree. Like, I would, if you're, what you're trying to say is Netflix is a little week in the kind of 20-minute light, like, sitcom kind of fair. Like, sure, I would tend to agree with you that they, they may be over-indexed on prestige. But then again, that might just be the stuff that you're thinking about and stuff that we're thinking about. I mean, I think they are pretty broadly, they've gone really broad

across all kinds of categories in their content. And all the things you're, you know, what you're saying is not something that they're unaware of. And they have been bidding on all of these programs with the inside knowledge. Like, you have to think about, too, they're bidding on, let's say, friends, and they know exactly how valuable friends is to them. HBO Max is bidding on friends and kind of just guessing about how valuable friends is to them. Well, look, the, again, I don't know that I disagreed with anything that you said. I was trying to put counterfactuals out there, but here's why I will, next time we do this, actually do research again, is that I'm going to try to figure out something that I can get you and Farhud to fight about and then we'll get the fireworks back.