Tech Won't Save Us - Brazil’s Data Center Boom is Enabled by Renewables Firms w/ Laís Martins

Episode Date: October 8, 2026

Brazil’s renewable energy is being exploited to justify unnecessary data center construction. Laís Martins joins Paris Marx to discuss why the renewable energy sector is behind a rise in Brazilian data center development, how this is impacting communities, and the ways this greenwashing is redirecting funding away from more socially progressive projects.Laís Martins is a technology reporter at The Intercept Brasil.The podcast is made in partnership with The Nation. Production is by Kyla Hewson. Support the show on Patreon.Also mentioned in this episode:Preorder Hyperscale to support Paris at Bookshop or find more links at hyperscalebook.com.Laís has written about the connection between wind energy and data center construction.Laís has written about the social impacts of the renewable energy driven data center build out in Brazil.Support the show

We were able to track that 60% of the requests to install data centers in Brazil come from renewable energy companies. This means that renewable energy companies are transforming themselves. They're like changing their core businesses to also become tech companies. To me, this was like very mind-blowing at first because this means you're at the same time, the energy provider and the consumer. Hello and welcome to Tech Won't Save Us, made in partnership with the Nation magazine. I'm your host, Paris Marks. And before we get into this week's episode, I have a special request for you. As you probably know by now, my new book Hyperscale comes out in less than two weeks.

This is a book about the build out of data centers and the backlash to it that we have really seen accelerate in the past six to 12 months. If you've been liking the episodes that we have been doing on the show lately, I think you're really going to like the book that I've written. You know, this took me a couple of years to put together. I did a bunch of research. I visited a bunch of spots around. the world to learn more about the impacts these data centers are having. And ultimately, I don't just dig into the demands of these data centers, how they're affecting people, but what this means for our future, what the tech industry is actually trying to do by pushing all these data centers on us and whether we can do something different.

So I'm not sure if you're aware of this, but pre-orders are really important for new books. It's not just like helping to sell books ahead of time, but it actually sends the signal to booksellers that this is a book that readers are interested in, that people are buying, and that more people will probably want to buy. And when booksellers see that signal, they bring in more books, they display it more prominently. They help to basically sell even more books because people have already bought it. So I often ask you to help me out and to help the show by going to patreon.com and becoming a supporter. But the best thing that you can do for me right now is to go pre-order a copy of Hyperscale. You can do that through bookshop.com, which supports local bookstores, whether that is in

the U.S. or the UK, and I'll put links to the show notes for you to do that. Or you can just go to hyperscalebook.com, the website I made for the book, where you can find a bunch of different pre-order links for different booksellers. The point is the pre-order of the book and just send that very important signal. Every single week, I have tens of thousands of people who tune in to Tech won't save us to listen to these interviews that I do with experts, but also hopefully to hear some of my own commentary and thoughts on these issues. If every one of you, or even half of you, went and pre-order to copy, that would help to make this book an incredible success. You would do so much to help me by helping my book succeed. So please, if you enjoy my work, if you enjoy this

podcast, I ask you to go pre-order hyperscale, whether that's a bookshop or anywhere else. Again, find links in the show notes where you can do that, or if you're on the video version, there will be a QR code on your screen. But we're less than two weeks away from release, and you would really help me if you go pre-order a copy of Hyperscale. Thank you so much. And now to this week's episode where we continue to talk about data centers. My guest is Laius Martens, a technology reporter at The Intercept, who has been on the show

in the past to talk about what is going on in Brazil, where there are a lot of data centers being built out right now, but where I felt it was really interesting that a lot these data centers are actually being pushed by renewable energy companies, which is very different than what we have seen in other parts of the world. These renewable energy companies are helping the data centers get over the line and get some degree of public acceptance, and then we'll be leased or sold off to some other company once they're actually built. I think it's a really important story because it's a different story than the one that we see in so many other jurisdictions, right, especially when we're talking so much about fossil fuels like we were last week with

Katanjoshi. But that doesn't mean these data centers are suddenly okay because there's more renewable energy involved. It's a complicated picture. And I talk about that with Lais in this interview. But beyond that, as you are probably aware, the Brazilian elections are this month too. And so near the end of our conversation, we also check in on what has been going on in Brazil, what might happen in these elections, you know, who might actually win. And what that will mean, not just for technology policy in Brazil, but also for Brazilian society. as a whole, as the risk of a Bolsonaro coming back to power is, you know, once again, a prospect and something that we need to be paying attention to. So with that said, I hope you enjoy this

conversation with Lais and the series of conversations that we're having about data centers this month as we celebrate the release of my new book, Hyperscale. And as I said before, if you want to help me out this month, please go pre-order a copy of Hyperscale. Your pre-orders will help make it a success. So thank you so much and enjoy this week's conversation. Laiz, welcome back to Techmont Savas. Thank you. I'm super happy to be back, Paris. Thank you. Absolutely. I'm thrilled to have you on the show, as always. And, you know, it's a really important time, not just because, you know, the data center

push continues in Brazil and, you know, across Latin America, but also, you know, Brazil is in election mode at the moment. We're going to figure out who the new president is, you know, along with, of course, the other representatives who get elected. And so I think it's a really good time for us to catch up, to talk about what is happening on the data center front, but also more widely in Brazilian politics. And, of course, we'll get into that a little bit later in our conversation. But I want to start with a more general question.

If we're thinking about data centers, of course, we've talked about this before, but what is the state of play in Brazil right now? How are things looking when we think about the expansion of data centers? down in your part of the world. Right. So I think when we first spoke to Paris, maybe more than an year ago, Brazil was starting to plan out this national data center policy

or a plan, as it was called at the moment. And this was just starting. They were still maturing the idea of what Brazil wanted to attract in terms of what types of data centers and what the incentives would be. And now I think it's been like one and a half year. This data center policy has been approved. and enacted into law by President Lula.

So it wasn't an easy path. I would say both for civil society organizations who were pushing back, but also for the data center developer or like the industry in more general terms because there was more pushback than they anticipated, I guess. And there also wasn't a lot of political support for this bill inside Congress, right?

So when it started out, it was meant to be a provisional measure, which would require congressional approval. It passed the Chamber of Deputies, which is the lower House of Congress, but then it got stuck at the Senate level. And for months, it was stuck to the point where people started doubting

that this would ever become a law. And then there was probably some political negotiation between the government and the president of the Senate. They are not in the same party. And this was put into vote and approved. but Lula still needed to approve it or sanction it, right? And there was this big question of whether he would do it because it's very important to say that in this year,

when the bill was moving forward in Congress, I think Brazilian society and also maybe people in Congress realized more and more that data centers are a very, they're a double-edged sword, right? They can either be very good in electoral terms or it can be a blow to your election zone and to your voters, especially with what's happening in the U.S. So I think there was this idea that maybe Lula was going to hold back,

not sanction it, or maybe push this until after the elections. But two weeks ago or, yeah, a little over two weeks ago, when all eyes were actually focused in a very important Supreme Court session, he sanctioned it into law. And I think it's not a coincidence that he chose that day, right? the government chose this day where everyone would be paying attention to something else to secretly kind of sign this into a bill. So what does this data center policy include? It establishes incentives for foreign companies to come into Brazil and install data centers.

I think it's very important to say that it's an incentive policy. So it reduces import taxes on equipment. So we know that's the most expensive part of building a data center. And at the same time, the government is asking in exchange some, that companies invest 2% of their yearly incomes into research and development. They also have to allocate, I think, 10% of one data center's capacity to the national market. So there are some things that the government is asking in exchange. But, you know, experts, people who have been following this policy that it's still not enough. If we're thinking of sovereignty of restoring this balance, it's still not enough to get us there.

One very important point of the policy, and I think this is, I don't want to say it's a win, but it's an improvement that the policy saw over this time is that companies have to generate their own energy. And this is a response to concerns that have been brought up to the government based on what is happening in the West. More specifically, that people will see their utility bills rise because of data centers. So now there's this obligation that companies have to generate their own energy. But this is not exactly good news, especially because of the renewable energy story. So I think we can discuss this a bit later.

But that's where we're at. One last note I want to make is that this was expected, but of course, big tech and data center developers aren't satisfied. Like this is not the end of the line for them, right? They just got this government incentive on the federal level, but they're already saying, we need more. We need incentives on the state level. It's still not worth it to go into Brazil unless the states also cleared the taxes. So, you know, in Portuguese, we have the saying that you give someone a hand and they go for your own entire arm.

I think this is exactly what is happening right now. Yeah, it definitely sounds like it. And I'm not surprised, unfortunately, to hear that, you know, development. And of course, the data center lobby, they always want more, right? You know, nothing is ever good enough. We see with the tech industry. And, you know, your point on the import taxes is important, right? Because, you know, this is something that they demand in a lot of jurisdictions,

certainly the removal of taxes on the equipment. And if I remember correctly, Brazil often has, you know, quite high import taxes on some of these types of things. This is something that they're definitely looking for and demanding. Before we move on to the specific model of data centers in Brazil, you know, you mentioned the renewable energy, and I want to dig into that. I wanted to ask you about the pushback and the backlash, right? Because I feel like we have seen a lot of opposition to data centers in the United States

that has really grown. And I feel like we're starting to see that pickup in other markets as well. You know, we're seeing Australia, Canada, where I am, at different parts of Europe, where the opposition is growing quite quickly. In Brazil, do we see the opposition, you know, kind of growing on a national level, or is this still pretty localized to where data centers are actually being built? That's a good question. So I would say we have, you know, pockets of resistance, like where data centers are coming up,

communities are starting to mobilize. But it's already an evolution of what was happening before because, you know, the first big example of resistance or pushback we have in Brazil is in the northeast, the indigenous community against the TikTok data center. And that only happened because journalism covered the story, right? I did this story. So we were able to tell the community, look, a data center is coming. This is what it means.

What we're seeing now is in places where there still hasn't been any media coverage, the community is already creating this shared understanding that, you know, this is something we should pay attention to. This is something we should mobilize. So, for example, there's a city here in the countryside of Sao Paulo State. called Pinda Moni and Gaba. The community there learned about the data center through a city hall announcement.

There was a press release on the website, and they started mobilizing. They reached out to people who were doing this type of resistance in other places, and this has started to grow. In fact, they have a big event coming up this weekend to share what they had learned about it.

So that's a case where journalism didn't really need to play a part in the sense that they weren't the ones to break the story. So this has happened in some other places. People reached out to me like, oh, I'm seeing a data center in my city. What should I do?

So I think it's become more spontaneous. What has happened on the national level, I think is what I call like social media activism. You know, like people have realized data centers aren't the big promise that they were supposed to be. And again, this is really based on what is happening in the US. The news does reach Brazil, like we, you know, have translated stories about people who have seen their utility bills rise

or people whose water supply has changed colors because data centers, the noise pollution, etc. This is reaching Brazil. So I think based on this, people have formed this understanding that, you know, data centers are something we should push back. So on the pop culture side of it, we're starting to see memes in Portuguese about data centers. And I think that's a good value of, like, Okay, people now understand, right? I would say it's still very limited to a progressive, environmentally concerned share of society, but it is happening. And I think people are starting to speak more and more

in their friendly family circles about it. Yesterday, one of my friends said, oh, today my English class, my teacher spoke about data centers, and she actually used one of your stories. You know, this is a person totally disconnected from you. So I think it goes to show that people are starting to create awareness. It's still nothing compared to what is happening in the U.S., but I also think that's explained by the fact that the data centers aren't really here yet.

They're not fully ready. So I think once people start to see them, and I think it's very physical, right? Once you see it, you listen to it, I expect, yeah, things to pick up a bit. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And I feel like, you know, when I look at Canada where I am, there was not a lot of attention paid on data centers until we started to have a lot of proposals of like really big projects. And of course, we were also seeing what was happening in the United States. So there's certainly that kind of like learning from their experience and then knowing what is coming for us in a way that I, you know,

I'm sure is happening in in Brazil as well. Right. And so I want to move on to the model of data centers in Brazil. Because to me, this feels really unique. Like it's not something that. that I feel like I have seen in other jurisdictions where it feels like the data centers, in many cases, are being proposed by renewable energy companies, right, and are very dependent on renewable power in the Northeast in particular. Can you talk to us about what we're seeing on that front in Brazil and how it might be different than in other jurisdictions? Yeah, I think that's definitely a very unique angle to Brazil. So what we're seeing in the rest of the world are technology companies struggling to find energy to supply.

their data centers, right? To the point where in the U.S. They're considering keeping coal mines running to supply the data centers. So like, you know, countries or companies and developers are going to absurd extent to justify this data center development. In Brazil, and I have to take a step back and not speak about data centers here for a moment, you know, Brazil is a very, our energy matrix is very clean compared to many countries around the world.

80% of our energy comes from clean sources. That includes hydropower, wind, and solar. This happened because many years ago, I would say like 10, 15, 20 years ago, there were lots of incentives for renewable energy generation. So companies got tax benefits. There was this big push to decarbonize Brazil, and it actually worked. But we didn't invest on the same level in distributing this. energy. So what this means is we have lots of generation of renewable energy, but we're not

able to spread this out into the country. Again, Brazil is a huge country, almost a continent in itself. So the challenges are very real. And this means that the energy is kind of stuck in this area where it's generated. Most of this energy is generated in the northeast of Brazil. Let me explain this because I also learned about this. If you have too much generation, it can overburn the grid. So it can lead the grid to a tipping point where you have blackouts. And this actually happened to Brazil in 2023. It was a massive blackout. So today, what happens is renewable energy generators, providers are forced to turn off generation because if they produce too much, it burns down the grid. Right. So they're pissed off. Like, you know,

they spend lots of money in installing generation, building wind turbines. Many of the if these companies are foreign, and then they have to turn off their generation. So they have been for the last many years pressuring the government to find a fix to their solution, to their problem. And the government has now found them. Data centers, right?

Because data centers are the perfect clients. They're like renewable or they're reliable clients. They need energy 24-7, and their operation is projected for like 10, 15 years at least. So you know that you have a client who needs you desperately, right? I think more than any other industry, data centers really need energy. So what we're seeing in Brazil is actually the opposite, right? Where in other countries, developers and technology companies look for the energy.

In Brazil, the energy looks for the data centers. So we tracked, and this is a special project we did at the Intercept with Monga Bay and the support of the Pulitzer Center, we were able to track that 60% of the requests to install data centers in Brazil, come from renewable energy companies. This means that renewable energy companies are transforming themselves. They're changing their core businesses to also become tech companies.

To me, this was like very mind-blowing at first because this means you're at the same time, the energy provider and the consumer. Like how does this equation work, right? What actually happens in practice is they do all the bureaucratic clearing, they do the licensing, and then once the data center,

is ready, a tech company comes and takes over it. Many of these data centers will be AI data centers. Like the ones we've been able to track, the companies, they use this in the justification saying that AI needs lots of energy, and this is an opportunity for their businesses, also to fix the curtailment problem. Curtainment is the technical name for this surplus of energy. But others will be just regular cloud or processing data centers.

This is happening, and it's happening. fast. And the point I want to make is because, you know, the data center policy includes this obligation for companies to generate their own energy, renewable energy companies are in the best position to take up this market. So I expect, you know, this number I just mentioned 60% to increase. Because also for tech companies, this is a really good arrangement. Like, they don't have to figure out where the energy will come from because this is already solved. Like, once they arrive, all the problems are actually cleared, right? Of course, in some places, water will still be a problem,

but the energy is fixed. And we know that you're able to fix the water problem with more energy. And if you have like almost infinite energy, then you don't actually have a problem. So I think this kind of, you know, it's very complicated to explain. And when I mentioned this to people outside Brazil, they're like, yeah, but are you saying

we shouldn't be using renewable energy for data centers? and that's not what I'm saying, but we're worried in Brazil, and this is, of course, an individual concern, but I've heard the former environmental minister say this, that the demand from AI data centers justifies an increase in renewable energy production in Brazil. And we don't need more production. As I said, we have plenty of energy.

We need to distribute it across the country. Because we still have also coal mines in Brazil. In the south of Brazil, we still have coal mines. It's a matter of, like, what are the priorities? And if this arrival of AI data centers using up this surplus of clean energy could risk our energy transition in Brazil, like, does this mean we're still going to have to rely more on fossil fuels for the next few years because the data centers are using up the clean energy that we have? And then very important also to say that although renewable energy is clean and much, much better than fossil fuels, it's not free of impacts. And community, especially in the northeast of Brazil,

have for many years spoken about how they're being impacted. It's like a data center, it makes so much noise, wind power. It impacts their livelihoods because they raise animals and their crops are also impacted. So I think we also have to think, is it worth it? Like installing more renewable energy projects, like wind turbines on top of these people? for the energy to be used by AI data centers.

Like, I think that's a discussion that needs to be made in the next few years. And right now it's still not happening, I guess. Absolutely. And I think that you've given us so much to dig into there, like a fantastic oversight of what is going on in Brazil and how it's like fascinating, but also a bit convoluted in different ways. And I want to dig into some different pieces of that. Like, obviously the first thing that really stands out to me is how in Brazil,

I feel like we have like the, the opposite problem that we see in so many other, you know, parts of the world where we're seeing data centers be built out where there you have a surplus of renewable energy that is being used for data centers. And I feel like when we look at parts of the United States or say in Alberta, up here in Canada, there's a surplus of natural gas and they are looking for markets for gas. And so data centers become, as you're saying, for the renewable operators down in Brazil, they become the reliable operators that are going to need, you know, a reliable large supply of gas in order to power their data centers.

And, you know, in Brazil, it's the renewables that are stepping in to do that, which seems like, I don't know, fascinating to see the difference in those two scenarios, you know? Yeah, yeah. I think it's super interesting. And in some ways, it complicates the discussion, right? Because it seems that like Brazilians don't really have a right to complain. because we've had it so much better. But actually, it's still, you know,

I'm not like I'm trying to classify who's like in a worst position or not. But it's still also very complicated. And I think the big discussion, it's not, it shouldn't be restricted to Brazil because, you know, it's in everyone's best interest that the world uses less fossil fuels. So I think we should think, like,

is this the best use that we want to make for Brazil's renewable energy? Being Brazil, such a big country and such a big neighbor also in the region, like what happens in Brazil impacts the rest of the countries. Although we're now surrounded by right-wing governments, that's also interesting. But it's a complicated discussion. And as you mentioned the natural gas sector, it's funny because after Lula sanctioned the law, they started pressuring the government because they also want it. They also want a little share of this new market, right? So they're trying to change or like amend the law to include the possibility to use natural gas.

Of course. Again, the saying, you know, like you give the hand, they want the whole arm. Of course. Yeah, it's not a surprise at all that they would do that. But it's so frustrating to see. I guess the data centers up in the Northeast will be powered by renewables. And then the ones like down in the south will be powered by gas or something like that. Yeah, but it's actually so funny, Paris, because when we were doing this report,

we would learn about data centers that are here, like in my area of the country, being powered by plants that are coming up in the northeast. And I was like, how is this possible? And then one expert told me, like, yeah, it's not as if the neutrons were traveling, like, through the grid and arriving Sao Paulo, but it's a compensation, right? If you're, because we have, this is also different from the U.S., Brazil has an interconnected national grid. Like, we're all on one grid. I understand that in the U.S. they're like separate local regional grids. But in Brazil, this means that if Serena, which is like one of the renewable energy companies,

is producing more in the northeast, and it has an agreement with, I don't know, like Scala, a data center provider or developer here in the southeast of Brazil, it's able to consume more here because there has been compensation on that end of the grid. It's so weird because there's a data center in the extreme south of the country using energy from a data center or from a power plant in Bahia.

And they couldn't be further away, right? But there's also a different case where the data centers are being installed right next to the generation. And this is where I think it gets complicated because, you know, communities have been already grappling with the impacts of renewables for many years. Their lands have already been ravaged by, because, you know, to build winter, I only learned this when I did field work and I saw the impact. Although there are like basically sticks on the ground, there's a lot of impact to the surrounding biome and you have to build out roads to access like the mountain areas.

So it's not only that communities that have grappled with the impact of this type of construction, now they're also having to deal with the data centers. Because the companies, they don't want to spend money. So they're putting data centers right next to the generation. So you see in some places like these landscapes that are completely beautiful, because that's a beautiful area of Brazil, and data centers are just falling there. This is going to happen more and more. So I think we have these two arrangements where people consume energy from far away,

but also the data centers coming right next to the generation. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And I want to come back to what you were saying there on renewables in just a second. But I also want to pick up on what you're saying about transmission, right? because this is really important. There's a lot of generation up there in the Northeast. There is a national grid, as you're saying, but clearly not enough transmission to take that energy

and bring it to other parts of Brazil, where, again, it could displace that 20-odd percent or whatnot of fossil fuels that is still on the grid that is still being used. And so then my question becomes, how is there the investment in the fiber infrastructure to make it necessary for the data centers to be able to locate up there?

But then there's not the investment and the transmission, that could instead, you know, have the power being moved elsewhere in Brazil. Also, great question. And I think the answer is the development in fiber infrastructure, like to enable these data centers is being done by the companies themselves, whereas transmission investments should be done by the government. And it's such a big cost. The government just cannot afford to take up on this cost. So this actually means who can pay more for the energy is the one to get it, right?

So like it's as if companies they're putting a price on, yeah, they're putting a price on renewable energy because they're the ones who are able to fund this type of development right now, whereas the government has not been able. What is also important to say is that, you know, in Brazil we haven't, I haven't found a case where utility prices have rise because of data centers yet, but the power companies. They're the connection between the transmitters or distributors and the final consumers, right? We found documents where they're complaining to the energy authority that because data centers are connecting to the grid, in some places the grid is requiring additional investments to strengthen the infrastructure. And this price for this type of construction is being shared among consumers. So they're going to the energy authority and saying, hey, it's not fair. that we have to pay the price for this improvement to the grid that is only being done because the data center is connecting.

So like, why should we pay the price? So again, this is the first stage. The next stage is that this increase in price will be diluted among consumers. So eventually we are going to pay the price for the data centers connecting to the grid. Absolutely. And especially as you say that, you know, a lot of these data centers are still in the planning phases or construction phases at the moment. So they wouldn't be consuming the electricity. electricity yet. So then, you know, again, another reason why those price increases might still be coming, but haven't been felt, you know, so far. I do want to pick up on, go back to what you were saying about

the renewables, right? And the kind of issues that communities have had with renewables as we start to talk about the impacts of this development, you know, on communities in the Northeast in particular. Because I feel like for people who maybe don't pay a load of attention to, you know, the, the way that renewables are built out, this can seem like a really odd argument, right? Like, why wouldn't you just want renewables to be built near your community because then it can displace fossil fuels and all this kind of stuff? But it is also important to recognize that how the renewables are built is important, right?

Are the communities actually involved in that development? Are they being consulted? Are they benefiting from, you know, that development that's happening? Is the impacts on their communities, the local environment really being considered? There are ways to build out renewables that do consider. those things and there are other ways that don't. And I imagine based on what you're saying that, you know, it's kind of private energy generation companies coming in,

not really considering community impacts and just building out this generation. But what are we seeing there? Can you give us some more nuance on how that works? Sure. So I think renewable energy construction is a lot similar to data centers. And I learned this because I first did data center stories and then I started learning about energy projects, right? So I think people have this wrong idea that renewable energy projects are built in deserts or like in areas that are not occupied. And that's not true.

People live there, but also, you know, animals live there. These are important areas for biomes in Brazil. So in Bahia, the region where I visited, that's kind of on the edge of Chapada Jamuncina, which is basically a plateau. We have in Brazil. It's a national park, beautiful place. And people live there. And that's also a very delicate biome called Kachinga, like the balance in that biome is very delicate. It's very important.

It recharges underground water. And people live there, right? Many communities live there. And their way of life is very different from like my life. They raise animals. They plant. In many of these areas, we have traditional peoples from Brazil like Kilombola communities or indigenous communities. So I think the impacts from renewable energy construction already begin with the process of the companies arriving to these lands.

Many of these companies are foreign, so we've had a big share of Italian companies, German companies, French companies. And the way they establish this connection with the community is already complicated because, you know, communities for years have been denouncing that they're pressured into scientific. contracts that are not interesting to them because they're basically contracts like 10-year-long contracts with automatic renewal. Like the company just renews the contract. And they're paid basically on a monthly basis for turbines that are installed on their territories. But then someone did a calculation, like one of the communities I visited, they told me a lawyer did the calculation and what they earn yearly is like 0.000000.

0.1% of the energy companies yearly income or profit, right? And of course, this makes sense because the scale of money is super different for the communities. But it's not fair because although they're being paid, they're also the ones who are stuck with the impacts. And then the impacts vary a lot. I would say the biggest is really the noise. I think like data centers, wind turbines emit this constant hum.

I read a story yesterday. A resident described it as a plane that never lands. So imagine the plane, like the noise of a plane, but it never stops because it never lands. Of course, at night, the noise is worse because when the whole earth gets silent, you hear it more. And this noise affects both us humans to a level where it's not really constant. You know, we don't recognize, but it starts messing with your sleep, with your whole circadian rhythm, but it also affects animals. And, you know, this member of the community, she told me, once they built a tower, the animals started going crazy and they started just running away.

So her dad lost many of the animals he had been raising for years because they went crazy with the noise. The construction is also full of impacts. To install a wind turbine, you have to bomb the area. You have like a detonation, a control detonation, right? But that means many of the houses have cracks in them. It means, again, the noise. Children are at school when this is happening.

There's, you know, so many impacts that I never considered. They told me that when the wind turbines are arriving to the area where they're being installed, traffic builds up because you need these long, long, long trucks to be able to bring. And trucks that are patrolled by state police, because they're so heavy, right?

So many impacts that have repeated themselves for at least 15 years. And then there are the impacts on the towns also, lots of construction workers that are from outside come in and the prices rise because there's people from outside. And then once they leave, the prices are still up because business owners don't want to bring them down and this increases the cost of life for people in general. So it's a cycle of every time,

a wind turbine complex is expanded, this happens again. So they're kind of tired. You know, they're saying like, no. And there are some communities that are, they've reached the point where they don't sign the contracts with the companies. So they don't authorize the installation of turbines inside their territories. But that means that the company installs the turbine like on the edge of it. And they still have to live with the impacts. So it's very complicated. I'm speaking more of wind because I think that's the strongest in the northeast of Brazil, but solar is also coming. Solar requires so much land. It's a bit different than turbine, wind turbines, because solar is more horizontal, right? But you need lots and lots and lots of land that could also be used

for something else. So, yeah, I think the impacts are pretty documented. It's funny because when we published these last stories, I got some messages of people saying, like, yeah, but what is the solution? And then others would comment, oh, we have to install them in the ocean. And that's actually a discussion right now in Brazil, offshore wind production. And then other people come in and say, yeah, but in the ocean, we also have creatures, right? Like sea creatures that also don't deserve to have their whole lives ravaged by wind turbine. So we're basically just pushing this to the edge of the earth, right? And people want to install data centers in space. So I think the discussion is there needs to be a more sustainable, a more conscious, a more respectful way of installing

renewables, but also ensuring the energy transition happens smoothly. And I think data centers really complicate the equation, right? Because what we're saying here is, yes, we need renewables. Yes, we're going to have to pay a price for it. The community. communities are already paying a price. They have to be compensated in some way. But if you put renewables in the equation, this means if you put data centers into the equation, this means you're going to need even more renewables.

And that complicates it all again. Absolutely, because then you need to build so many more of these projects. And already they're not being built with the community in mind, thinking about the impacts, all those sorts of things. And so then it's even exacerbated, because you need to build so much more. As you said earlier, I think, but also I read in your stories that, you know, even though so many of these energy companies need to, like, turn off their renewables

or stop adding power to the grid because, you know, they're generating so much more than the grid can handle that they're still building more renewables in anticipation of these data centers that they're hoping to be to be powering. Exactly. So, like, you know, the moment should be of us stopping expansion and kind of like replanings. around what we have, but actually AI data centers are justifying an expansion on top of the surplus that we already have. That's crazy, right? Like, we don't need more generation.

I think this is what people need to understand. We need better planning to distribute this energy across Brazil and find better uses for it. But again, who pays the highest price? I think the government, and we're going to speak about elections, but to me, it's interesting that the government seems, it seems like they're, they went with the easiest solution. Of course, planning, distribution, and transmission lines requires so much more and it costs so much more. But in the long term, it's a more sustainable solution,

one that benefits the entire population. But right now it's like, okay, data centers are renewable energy companies are complaining so much for the past few years. Data centers arrive, okay, you know, like it's fixed. Between you two, you make an arrangement and we're not going to get involved. This is what's happened.

Absolutely. And so I have two other kind of, you know, quicker questions, I guess, on this piece. And then I want to kind of move on and ask you something else. When we look at these data centers that are being planned and constructed in Brazil, you mentioned that the renewable energy companies are often the ones that are kind of spearheading this process, right? What are the impacts of those data centers when they get built? You know, I know there's been a lot of discussion of this TikTok data center in particular, but I know that there are other ones, you know, in the process too. And one, Once these data centers are set up, obviously in the TikTok case, it's a Chinese company, but do they tend to be then controlled by the major US tech companies? Who ends up running these data centers at the end of the day?

When we know, I think that's also like the point of having energy companies do the whole spearheading is that we only learn about the final client very later on. And to the big tech companies, this is super beneficial, right? They don't get their hands dirty, so early,

on in the process. Again, the TikTok case, this is exactly what happened. It was a renewable energy company. And at one point, we were able to find out, like with government sources, it was TikTok. So we were able to name TikTok. And that changed the game because people recognize TikTok. They know TikTok is a social network. They use it. I think they're able to connect that infrastructure to what it actually means. If you tell people it's a renewable energy company, they're like, How does this make sense, right, in the final equation? So it's very important to be able to name them. The TikTok Data Center, in terms of impact,

I think the biggest concern in that area is water. So we're speaking of this town that is right next to Fortaleza. Fortaleza is the capital of Sierra. And this town is a very, in terms of area, it's a very big town, city or whatever. It's called Kaukai, is the name of it, where you have the coastal area, this middle area that is like the urbanized area, and you already have an area that is in the countryside, and that's very dry.

But still, right next to the data center, you have communities that don't have access to clean potable water because the water never reached them. And what these communities are saying is that, you know, we already have some months in the year where we're not able to get water from our cisterns. what will happen with the data center pumping out more water from the ground. So they're concerned about the water impact. Again, energy is still a problem in that area. These same communities, they tell us that when it rains,

sometimes they go for days without power. So power is also a problem. But the biggest impact there is that this data center is on indigenous land. And I think that makes the story very different, right? Because we're not speaking only of very tangible impacts, but we're speaking of this more spiritual level. So right next to the data center, there's a big body of water. It's a lagoon.

It's very big. And to the indigenous that live there, that has a sacred meaning. TikTok is pumping water out of the ground, but it's connected to that body of water. So they're saying, if this dries up, what does this mean for us? Like, you know, this lagoon has such a sacred meaning. If it's gone, how does our spiritual? continue. These are things that don't make it into environmental reports. They oftentimes don't make it into the story, but these are things that should be considered, right? The

indigenous are speaking about this very frequently. They also have this interesting understanding, you know, TikTok would say, or like developers would say, yeah, but the water returns because it evaporates. Like, it's going back to the environment. And then the indigenous would say, yeah, but to us, that water is dead. What are the has passed through an electronics? system is dead. It's useless. Like, you know, the spiritual component is gone. So again, you will never read this in an environmental report. There's also, I think, a level of racism there where we don't consider the meanings of these things for these communities, but it should be considered also. So I would say that's the impact in the TikTok case. In many other cases, again, I would say the

impact is water. So data centers that are coming. coming up in Sao Paulo around my area. Water is a problem. I would say we're not having a problem with water right now because this has been the rainiest September ever, but usually September we have rationing, water rationing in many, many houses. And data centers are coming up in this area

and many close together. What water will they use? So this is again a question. Recently, we saw the announcement a data center in Berlin, DuPara. So that's already the Amazon. And they've been calling it the first Amazonian data center, as if this was like a good selling point.

The community there is really worried about what this means. It's interesting because the problem there is power. The area where the data center will be built is an area that goes without power for many days. Water is not really a problem there because, of course, the Amazon is so humid, although they're going through a drought now. but what communities there have been saying and also journalists, activists,

is about this boundary that they're worried will be crossed. Like, if you're able to install a data center on the edge of the Amazon rainforest, what happens if you go next, like after, right? So they're worried about breaking this boundary of, which has been an invisible line that hasn't been crossed yet in terms of like technology companies. So I think these would be the impact

again, we're still very early on. Things haven't happened. I think in two years we'll be able to say what is that actually, how are these data centers impacting? These are just some forecasts that we have based on what we've been able to learn about energy consumption and water consumption

and the areas where these data centers will be installed. But I wouldn't say we're in a situation where the prognosis is good. We're like, we're, you know, abundant natural resources. Please come and, you know, use up whatever you would like. This is not the case, but this is what is being sold to these companies, also internationally. Yeah, I think that's a really good overview for us.

And when you talk about, you know, even up in the indigenous areas where data centers are being built, again, it's like the economic value that can get considered that, you know, is justifiable that people care about. You know, the environmental impacts might make it into a report, as you say, but are not as high valued or considered. And then, of course, you know, kind of the spiritual value, if you think about indigenous people and whatnot, is just like, this doesn't matter, right?

Yeah, completely trashed. Yeah. And I think that's the case. You know, like I spoke to this lady who was involved in a data center resistance in Alaska. That was also the case. I think in Canada, that's also the case, right? So these points have to be considered.

And I think as journalists, we have the duty to write about them. because otherwise we're also making them invisible. It doesn't make it into the stories. Then it's a very black or white story about water or energy and that's it. No, there are other impacts that need to be considered. I completely agree. Now, we've talked a lot about Brazil and what's going on in your country, but I was hoping we could zoom out a little bit

and talk a little bit about other parts of Latin America just briefly to get a picture of what we're seeing across the continent. I feel like there was a lot of attention on Chile for a while and the data centers that were being constructed there and the fights against them as well as they were demanding water and electricity that it didn't seem that the communities and cities could actually provide to these data centers.

Now, a lot of that discussion was happening under President Gabriel Borish, right? The left-wing president who was in power there for quite some time. Since then, we have seen a very right-wing president take power in Chile instead. How are things shifting in Chile right now and how is this new government treating the tech industry

and the data center industry? Yeah, you're right. It was already bad before under the government of Gabrioboros, and this is the case, right, for many of our countries like left-wing governments just pushing the data center agenda.

What we have seen after cast, the new president, took power is more opacity. Surprisingly, Chile was a country where people were able to obtain good, reliable information about data centers. And I guess that explains why we saw such a strong movement resisting to the Google data center in Cerrillo. That was probably the first big case of data center resistance in Latin America, and they were

able to stop the Google data center, right? And I have some journalist friends who have covered Chile and the data centers, they would tell me we're able to source good information from the environmental reports. The environmental authority requires a good level of information from data centers, and this is public, so we're able to get our hands on it and write good stories. This has changed. What has happened since Cass took power is that there's this special exemption for data centers where they don't have to undergo the full environmental licensing.

So all these documents and records that would be public no longer exist. And this means many data centers are coming into existence without people learning about them and without them undergoing the full environmental license. So they're getting a green light without governments actually knowing if that area is able to absorb that demand, including the Google Data Center. So I read about this.

The data center that was stopped by the community has now gotten a green light under this new reviewed process. So this is really bad because it not only means that more data centers, but also more data centers that we know very little about. I think this is kind of what is happening in Chile, and the expectation is, of course, more data centers. Because once you clear these hurdles and you make it easier for them and less reputational damage also because they don't have to stress this process of public environmental licensing, it makes it more interesting and appealing, right? Absolutely. I wonder then, looking at what's happening in Chile, is that kind of pressure to build data centers that we're seeing on that side of South America and then obviously in Brazil kind of pouring into the other countries? I think, of course, of Argentina, where there's a president who is very well liked by the U.S. president and U.S. industry, you know, Javier Mili. What are we seeing, you know, in some of those other countries down in South America and Argentina in particular?

I think this is definitely spreading, but it's also very interesting. I mentioned, you know, Brazil is now surrounded by this belt of right-wing governments. So like Chile, Argentina, Paraguay, Colombia. So all of the governments that, you know, Colombia was the last standing left-wing government in the region after Brazil. This means that now Trump has this built because they're all allied to Trump. It's not only that they're right-wing governments, their right-wing governments allied to the U.S. government. So Trump has now this direct pipeline into countries that have good availability of energy and also natural resources and a strategic location, right? Because South America is a strategic location.

So I would say beyond Chile, we also have Argentina, where you're right, Javier Milay is a very pro-Trump guy, but he's also a very pro-business sector guy. And we've seen announcements of data centers' investments in Patagonia, because that's also in Argentina where you have the biggest reserve of shale gas. So again, they're looking for energy, and that's where the energy is. And Milet is facilitating, I guess there's also a tax exemption package going on there to make Argentina more interesting. It's also a good business environment.

Apparently, it's a horrible environment for Argentinians to live in because the prices are crazy with hyperinflation. But apparently it's a good business environment for companies from abroad to invest in. It's also insane, right? Like in this climate, like companies are coming in. And of course, we have to worry because Patagonia is also a protected area. There are also traditional peoples living there. So that's the case for Argentina. In fact, one of the projects announced there was Stargate.

I don't think this announcement has really moved on. This was announced probably last year or early this year. They just made this initial announcement that they were going to install the first Stargate project in Latin American Argentina in Patagonia, but we haven't heard more since. Of course, Peter Thiel and his buddies have been seen in Argentina. There's this whole story of Tech Bros. making, you know, like summer or winter homes or whatever in Argentina.

So there is interest in Argentina, again, because of this facilitation. There is a country I want to mention Paraguay, also now under a right-wing presidency. And Paraguay is a very small country, but it holds something that is very important to the U.S., which is energy and also clean, renewable energy. Paraguay is on the triple border between Argentina and Brazil, and there's a dam. hydro power dam and that border called Itaipu. And there's this decades-long agreement that the energy is shared between the countries. But look, Brazil is way bigger than Paraguay.

Argentina is also bigger. So Paraguay never uses up the full energy that it is entitled to. For the past decades, there was an agreement that it would sell its surplus to Brazil. This agreement is now ending. So very soon, Paraguay will hold this surplus of energy, and they have to decide what to do. do it with it. So last year there was a visit from macro rubio. Of course, they're already very interested in this energy. We're seeing crypto currency data centers install themselves in Paraguay,

but also now technology AI data centers installing themselves ready to take up this surplus of energy. This is happening because governments are welcoming these types of investments, but it's not an exclusivity to the right-wing governments, right? I think we can discuss but we're seeing this also in Mexico and Brazil that are controlled by progressive governments, so to speak. I think that's fascinating and I didn't know that about Paraguay and how things we're working out there. It comes to mind as I hear you talk about these things. It's not the first time we've seen Nazis flee to Argentina, you know, as we were seen. You're so right. You're so right.

Yeah, they're seeking for refuge there. They're building their bunkers there probably, right? when the world ends. And I guess Peter Thiel has some backup bunkers as well, one in New Zealand, one in Argentina. You know, I was also, you know, as you were talking about Patagonia, it brought to mind something I was thinking when you were talking about the renewable energy projects in the northeast of Brazil as well, where, you know, I think it can feel like a very odd thing to hear about people against renewable energy projects.

But it brought to mind, actually, you know, I'm located currently in Newfoundland, which is on the east coast of Canada, of course. and there was a wind project that was proposed here that was in one of our kind of like protected areas, right? And obviously people were very against it, right? They have no problem with renewable energy, but it was like there's so many places

where you could build wind turbines, why would you place it in a protected park, right? Like, this makes no sense. And so it just to me was an indication of how there are very many reasons why you can oppose a specific renewable energy project without, you know, opposing renewable energy in general, just because the way it's approached is not in line with things that, you know, communities would be okay with or would accept. Now, I want to pivot back to Brazil as we start to close off our conversation.

You've given us good insight on some other countries in South America. But, you know, as I mentioned earlier, there is an election happening in Brazil as we speak. Now, we're speaking before the first round of voting, which happens in early October, but this will be published in between the first and second round of voting when we expect Lula and his far-right opponent, Flavio Bolsonaro, of course, son of the Bolsonaro who was president previously, to kind of be in the finals for the presidency. I guess my question is, looking at these two candidates and how things might be going, what do you think this is going to mean not just for data centers in Brazil, but for tech policy and just for Brazil in general as we get closer to this final vote and this decision

as to who will be the next president. That's a very interesting question. I would say let's start with data centers, right? Because when you look at what their policies are for data centers or at least their intentions, we know a lot about what Lula thinks about data centers because of the policies of this past government. But in terms of what Flavu thinks we've heard him speak, about it and we have some details in his government plan, which is not very detailed, by the way, but they're basically the same. And this really complicates the discussion, right? Because you have two opposing projects of a country, like they couldn't be more different, but they agree on tech policy in this run, specifically data centers, right? They think, yes, we need to open up Brazil

for data center investments from foreign technology companies. We do need to grant tax exemptions. We need to bring in these data centers. So they're able to agree on that. And, you know, this also means Lula's policy compares to, like, Milet's policy in some ways. Where they start to diverge, and this is an important point to make, is they have different ideas on sovereignty, right? Over the past few weeks, we've seen Flavio Bolsonaro, his brothers, not his dad because he's arrested, but I'm sure he would say the same thing, bend the need to Trump, more than ever.

Literally, there have been calls from them and allies for Trump to intervene in Brazil. They're asking for an intervention. I think that's insane. But this means that they've made it very clear that this is a government that will be allied to the U.S. as none before. Can I ask, when you say intervention, are they asking more for Trump to, like, speak out and endorse

Flavio Bolsonaro as the candidate or something more in line with what we saw in Venezuela recently? I think it's up in the air. Yes, endorsement, they have been asking for endorsement. I think it's been given in one way, like the fact that Trump receives them in the White House, there is a level of endorsement there. But they're also asking for this type of more on-the-ground action. For example, they've asked Trump to designate to resilience. factions, criminal factions, as terrorist groups or foreign terrorist organizations,

like Trump did with the Pandas in El Salvador, like he did with Venezuelan groups, also Colombian groups. So, you know, in Venezuela, they intervened after this came. In Colombia, they started striking fishermen boats. So what is the next step after you designate domestic groups as foreign terrorist organizations? But they're also asking, and this has happened for some intervention on the legal front. So you must remember that Alexandridge Morais, one of our Supreme Court justices, is being sued by Rumble. There's a suit in the U.S., Rumble against Morais, kind of pushing back against decisions that Moraes took in the Brazilian Supreme Court against Rumble.

this is one thing when Eduardo and Flav is the other brother and Flav, he's in exile in the U.S. right now but when Flav went into Eduardo, were in the U.S., they met with Trump and asked

they were there when Trump applied the tariffs. And what is the basis or like the legal justification for the tariffs that Brazil is taking anti-competitive measures against U.S. companies, including tech companies.

So, you know, tech policy is a common line in their connection to Trump. So what we can expect is that in the case of a Flavie Bolsonaro presidency, one, deregulation. So I think all the efforts that the Lula government has been able to advance on the regulation front, the child online safety bill, I expect all this to be pushed back and other proposals that have been moving very slowly to be completely stopped.

So it will be an environment of complete deregulation and another, important expectation is them opening the doors of the government to big tech, kind of like doge. I don't want to say this a lot, but I would expect something like this where they let technology into the government to kind of clean out the government or like reduce expenses, make it more efficient. And we know that there are connections between these groups and, you know, Peter Thiel, Elon Musk, there is a level of agreement and even ideological agreement. So I would expect them to open Brazil's doors for these people. And we know that these technology companies, because they're now allied to Trump, they also are

allied to the project of Brazil that these people represent. So I'm also concerned what this means in terms of surveillance, press freedom, or even, you know, freedom of speech, what does this mean for Brazilians who are not voting for Flavri Bolsonaro this time around? So I think the prognosis isn't really good. It doesn't mean that with Lula, you know, there hasn't been big tech lobbying in the federal government or some level of like, yeah, big tech making contracts with the government. We've seen like volunteer starting to come into Brazil. So of course this is happening. But I would say in the case of a Flavin Bolsonaro presidency, like the doors will be pushed wide open. Like it's an invitation for the,

them to come into Brazil. So I'm concerned about this. I think the signs are very worrisome. And then this, you know, is not only on the more intangible front, but also what it means for data centers, rare earths is something the U.S. is definitely very interested into getting their hands on. In Brazil, we have big, big reserves of rare earth minerals, other strategic minerals as well. also because, you know, these guys have been the need to Trump, I don't expect them to say no if Trump asks like, yeah, I want to access this area, like this reserve of Earths, they will say yes, because they're in some ways indebted to Trump, right? They need Trump's endorsement approval to keep on going and rallying their crowds. So not good signs.

Not great. And of course, that. would, you mentioned this band of right-wing governments around Brazil. This would, you know, kind of absorb Brazil into it. And then, you know, Trump would have all of these aligned governments through South America then, which, you know, is obviously a terrible thing to see, including, you know, Venezuela, which is, you know, effectively controlled by the United States. Yeah, I don't know if you saw Lula's, so Lula opens, or the President-President generally opens the UN General Assembly. So this, when we're recording, this was yesterday or two days ago, Lula spoke right before Trump.

And it seems like he kind of knew what Trump was going to speak because he previously addressed all of like the absurds that Trump said. But he gave one quote that was on like it was a headline of all the big newspapers, which is Brazil doesn't fit in no one's backyard. As if he's saying like, yeah, Trump, you might, you might have made these other countries around us your backyard or you're trying to, but Brazil won't bend in saying like, yeah, It's not your backyard in terms of resources, but it's also not your ideological backyard,

where you can just push your ideas. So this is what is in dispute right now. And Lula has been able to very intelligently play the sovereignty story with his voters. I think people are starting to understand. You know, we had the Pigs case. I didn't even go into this, but where Trump was like, yeah, I'm going to ban Pigs because this is anti-competitive. But we've had episodes in the past few months where the idea of sovereignty has become very clear to people.

Like, it has become a tangible idea. It's not just speculation of what could happen if the U.S. intervenes in Brazil. So people, general people, are understanding what sovereignty means. And this has become a campaign banner for Lula. It's not really in the data center story, but in the rest, I think he's been able to show people this is what is at stake. a true sovereign project and a project of a country that will bend its need to the U.S. Yeah, that's really interesting and certainly is relatable coming from Canada and seeing the narratives happening up here. There's solidarity there.

100%. There should be more solidarity between Canada and Brazil. There's something in between us, you know? There's this big country between us, I guess. What is that? We need to push that out of the way, I think. But no, it's fascinating. to hear about that. Obviously, you know, very much

hoping that Bolsonaro, too, does not become president in Brazil for, not just for you guys, but for everybody, because that would be a terrible development. And, you know, I very much hear what you're saying on Lula, and I feel like, you know, it's a continued kind of criticism from the left of him, right?

Like, that, you know, he's still very focused on fossil fuels, you know, on tech, he hasn't been doing nearly enough. And, like, you know, he's willing to compromise on some of these economic development things as a justification for, you know, the social programs and things like that that the Workers Party introduces, right? But that still doesn't mean that we want Bolsonaro over over Lula. It's still democracy, right? We want to be able to do like the

criticism within a democracy. I think people have to be very clear in the idea that what is at stake is democracy and the continuation of it in Brazil. Absolutely, absolutely. Lais, it's always fantastic to have you on the show to get your insights to learn about what is going on in Brazil. Thanks so much for taking the time. Thank you so much. Happy to be here again. And I hope to come back with good news

once this all ends in the future. I certainly hope so. Thank you. Laisette Martins is a technology reporter at the Intercept Brazil. Tech Won't Save Us is made in partnership with the Nation magazine and is hosted by me, Paris Marks. Production is by Kyla Husson. Tech Won't Save Us relies on the support of listeners

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