Tech Won't Save Us - Data Center Opposition is Uniting Communities w/ Saul Levin

Episode Date: June 25, 2026

As tech companies race to build hyperscale data centers, communities are coming together to push back. Saul Levin joins Paris Marx to discuss how rising opposition to data center construction is uniting people across party lines and prompting broader conversations around what infrastructure people want instead. Saul Levin is community organizer and host of The Hum.Tech Won’t Save Us offers a critical perspective on tech, its worldview, and wider society with the goal of inspiring people to demand better tech and a better world. Support the show on Patreon.The podcast is made in partnership with The Nation. Production is by Kyla Hewson.Also mentioned in this episode:You can now pre-order Paris’s new book, Hyperscale: The Ambition and Excess of Big Tech's Data Empires.Saul wrote a piece with Astra Taylor about the bigger picture of data center organizing.The Seminole Nation in Oklahoma passed a ban on AI data centers on their lands.Sam Altman and Gov. Gretchen Whitmer posing together at the site of a new data center drew wide criticism.Support the show

And you literally couldn't make this stuff up. I mean, it's cinematic. Half of the projects of, like, the most expensive buildout in the history of the world. I mean, we could have high-speed rail in this country. And instead, they're offering us these extremely janky tools to make bad Facebook posts. I mean, it's just like people are seeing through that. Hello and welcome to TechWon and Save Us, made in partnership with the Nation magazine. I'm your host, Paris Marks.

And this week, my guest is Saul Levin. Saul is a community organizer and host of the new podcast, The Hum. Now, obviously, we have been seeing growing opposition to data centers. across the United States and certainly many other countries as well. We're seeing it here in Canada where I am. And I haven't talked to anyone recently about what is actually going on there. You know, I made a series called Data Vampires back in 2024, and I've been working on a book about data centers for a while now, which comes out in October. I'll put more information about that in the show notes called hyperscale, of course, you know, in reference to these hyperscale data centers. And certainly I'll

have more to say on that in future episodes, in future weeks. But for now, I wanted to talk to Saul about what we're actually seeing on the ground in the United States, in terms of the opposition to data centers, the impacts that data centers are having on communities, and why that is prompting so many people to push back against it. And I think that this is a really interesting conversation because, you know, Saul has a really good insight into what is happening in many different campaigns across many different states and what is motivating people to go out against these data centers. And it's actually really fascinating. And I found this as well in the research that I was doing and the people I was talking to, the opposition to data centers is not

like a left-wing progressive issue. It's a very much a bipartisan issue. And there's some polling that even shows that Republicans in the United States are more opposed to data centers than Democrats. And so this is like an issue that actually brings a lot of different people in different parts of society from different political persuasions together against not just this infrastructure, but in some cases against the tech industry more broadly and their vision for American society, but kind of global society too, as we see this being pushed out into many other countries. And so there's a lot of kind of interesting things to talk about as a result of that through this conversation. And also just, you know, the broader impacts that these infrastructures are

having, whether it makes sense to be building them out. And what they're powering at the end of the day, right? And whether that actually makes sense for our communities to have these data centers, but also to have these AI tools that have so many drawbacks to them. So that's all to say that this is a really wide-ranging conversation that gets to many different aspects of the data center issue, including the policy piece, right? You know, the moratoriums that we're seeing past at different levels. And what we're seeing in how politicians are responding to the growing public anger around data centers, generative AI, and these major infrastructures being planned for their communities.

I think that there's a lot of opportunity in that, and I have no doubt that we're going to see that grow even further as the ambitions of the tech industry are not going to be reined in anytime soon, unfortunately. Hopefully we'll get a bubble burst or something like that that will contribute to it, but it's really going to take people getting out there speaking against these companies in order to stop them or to try to rein them in, at least to a certain degree, to limit the harm that can come of what they're doing and how they really don't care about the impacts on so many of these communities. It's all about their pursuit of generative AI, artificial general intelligence, and the kind of fantastical visions that they have for the future, regardless of what that means for everyday people.

So that's all to say. I was really happy to have Saul on the show. You know, you'll probably like his podcast as well, where he's talking to data center activists and learning about campaigns around the United States. And if you do enjoy our conversation, you can leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice. You can share the show on social media or with any friends or colleagues who you think would learn from it. And if you do want to support the work, that goes into making tech won't save us every single week. So we can keep having these conversations to help inform you about what is going on with the tech industry, how it is affecting people's lives. You can join supporters like Bjorn from Vienna and Lucas from Germany by going to patreon.com slash TechWon Save Us, where you can become a supporter as well. Thanks so much and enjoy this week's conversation. Saul, welcome to Tech Won't Save Us.

Thanks for having me, Paris. Absolutely. It's great to chat with you. I've started hearing about your podcast in the past month that is talking to data center activists to, I think, really help people learn more about who the people are who are actually fighting against these massive infrastructures and what the tech industry is trying to do in so many communities across the United States and beyond. And then, you know, I was like, I've been wanting to do another episode on data. centers and you reached out and I was like, yeah, this is the perfect opportunity. So, yeah, very happy to have you on the show. Yeah, thanks for having me. And yeah, I'm excited to talk about it. I mean, it's such a rapidly changing issue. So I think our conversation would be different in a month. So I think we're in a good moment to give it a shot. Absolutely. And it feels like we're

probably going to be here more like leading up to the midterms and all that, right? But I guess, as you say there, you know, this is an issue that is changing a lot, that is evolving quickly. So I wonder, given that we're in June of 2026, like what you make of the state of organizing against data centers, you know, midway through this year, the moment that we're in right now. Yeah, totally. I mean, in June of 26, I think we're seeing a lot of political candidates and campaigns really start to recognize the importance of the data center issue for their authenticity. Because more and more people are realizing that it's basically everyone who lives anywhere against big, tech, the billionaires who want to build data centers, and the companies and very few jobs

that are directly benefiting from it, that's kind of the breakdown that we see. So it's not really a political breakdown in the traditional sense. We talk to folks who are anarchists. We talk to folks who are MAGA. We talk to folks who are independent, not political, whatever. And they all basically say more or less the same thing, which is we're very concerned about this. And this is a bad deal.

And we know a bad deal and we see one. If you want to offer us a good deal, like come back. another time. This is not a good deal. So I think what that means right now is that there's a huge opportunity for the political landscape to shift, whether it's for the midterms this year or longer down the line. It's like people are having a moment where they're saying, wait a second, why are a few guys in Silicon Valley controlling everything and doing whatever they want? And why is the president, whether I voted him for him or not, giving them a blank check to run around like the entire country is their playground and build whatever they want, wherever they want,

regardless of the consequences for us. Yeah, I think that's really well said. And it's a lot that I want to come back to through the course of this conversation to dig in further. So I think it's a great introduction for us. But I wonder, you know, given that we are in June of 2026 and how much opposition we're seeing against data centers right now, I guess what have you made of how much that has grown over the past year or so and how quickly it has done so?

it's pretty remarkable. In the past 10 years of organizing in the environmental movement and the labor movement, I've never really seen such organic growth of an issue. You might hear nonprofits or even businesses who are building data centers say, oh, there's someone fomenting this resistance, but it's really not true. I mean, I've talked to people in almost every state who are fighting AI data centers, and it's not about convincing people that this is a bad deal. I mean, to the extent that the information about what the deal is that's out there, then people are very troubled and concerned. So I think one of the notable things is the organic growth. It's genuinely people are like, oh, you're coming to my town and you're saying, I might give you a little money, but by the way, I'm not actually going to pay taxes. I'm going to pollute your water. I'm going to raise your energy bills. I'm going to take up this arable land and make it go fallow.

And there's going to be a noise all day, every day. that gives you a headache and annoys your kids. I mean, the pros and cons list is wildly lopsided. And people are seeing that regardless of where they come from or which thing bothers them the most and coming together and saying, you know what, we're not interested. Yeah. And in that case, you can understand why that opposition has grown, right? Like, just at last week, as we're talking, the Canadian government rolled out this new

kind of like AI strategy. And the implicit argument of the strategy was kind of like, people don't like AI and don't trust AI right now because they don't understand it. And if we just help them understand it better, if we make them more AI literate, then they'll be cool with it. And it's like, no, I think you guys have this all wrong. And people are against the AI and the data centers for reasons you don't want to admit. And certainly the industry doesn't want to admit, right? And so, like, yeah, it feels like there's this big disconnect and that, you know, people don't need to understand exactly how a chatbot works to understand that there's a problem with, you know, locating these massive data centers in their communities.

And beyond that, kind of like the issues that come with the technology that these data centers are supposed to be, you know, supplying, empowering, right? 100%. I mean, the condescension that's at play here is pretty remarkable, right? Basically, these companies and politicians are saying everyone in my jurisdiction is too stupid to understand how this is actually good for them. And everyone else is saying, you know, show us the math. I mean, what particularly are you talking about that you?

you think this is so beneficial to us. One of the ways that this plays out is that we see organic resistance popping up in places that are usually somewhat quiet. We've seen students on campus as booing AI commentary in commencement speeches. And, you know, people have reached out to me and said, hey, you know, Saul, are you going to do an episode on the hum about the folks organizing to boo those speakers? And I said, well, no, because actually, it's literally the speaker is saying something about AI and then students are booing it. It's not like, I mean, and maybe in a case or two,

there's been a coordinated effort, but that's not really what's going on here. And so the organic nature of it is really remarkable. And the way that people are just absolutely rebuking the condescension coming from Ottawa and Washington, D.C. and New York City, you know, these places where wealthy folks, you know, Silicon Valley are trying to make these decisions for everyone. People are like, yeah, actually, that's not how this works. And I'm going to do my own research. So it's really, it's a pretty remarkable story of people responding to condescension with facts and saying, yeah, this sucks. Yeah, totally, right? And it's like, I feel like so many times in the past, you know, the tech industry has been so successful in, you know, pushing, you know, these technologies and kind of their vision for technology at us. And we largely tend to go along with it, right? Or at least give it a shot, you know, kind of give them the benefit of the doubt.

And it just feels like in this case, despite all of the hype that they have tried to drum up for AI and, you know, as you've been saying, all of the narratives they've tried to put out about data centers and how they're going to help communities and all this kind of stuff, that people just aren't buying it in a way that does feel like, you know, obviously we've seen opposition to like crypto and things like that in the past, right? But it does feel like pretty unique what is happening in this moment. Absolutely. I mean, part of what's happening in my read, and I think a lot of people feel this, is that the takeover and, you know, grabbing of control of our daily lives that big tech has been doing for the last 20 plus years is really like physically manifesting in data centers. And so a lot of the folks that we talk to for the hum and in our organizing say wildly different things from each other about why they hate data centers. And so it's not like, oh, everyone is upset about the water consumption. Some people are just like, you know what? I'm tired of my kids being addicted to screens. And like even if I try and get them to watch like the ethical programs and even if I try and set screen time and whatever, these companies are manipulating everything that they use.

And now our schools are forcing the kids to use computers for everything. So there's no way to even monitor what my kids are doing, what's happening. And similarly, adults are like, yo, I go to hang out with my friends and everyone's on their phone. Like, screw this. And then they see a data center pop up in town. And it's like, wow, now this is going to ruin your day to day life in addition to like your broader social connections. And people are furious. And so I think the way that the tech industry has in a basically unregulated fashion, done whatever they want with our

daily lives and dependence on devices and is now jamming AI into literally every application and every single thing we do is is really something that people know. And so they're like, you know what, even if this data center doesn't pollute our water, it still is upholding the use of tech to kill people abroad and to distract my kids in school at home, what, you know, this is not worth some amount of money that you're going to come offer me in a back deal, backroom deal. Exactly. And that's not even the mention the issues people have with the chatbots and all that kind of stuff, right? Right, exactly. You know, is often the justification for these things in the first place. And it's like, why should I be sacrificing my community for, you know, all this slop that I see on Facebook or whatnot? You know, like, but I want to go back to like the data centers more specifically, right? Because I think you're laying out really well, like kind of the stakes of what is going on here, right? And why people are so opposed to it. What are we seeing in the actual kind of project?

being blocked in the United States at the moment? Are communities and campaigns actually having success in stopping data centers from moving forward in different parts of the country? There's actually no effort that has been able to completely track the amount of opposition that's happening in the country right now because it's so fast and it's so ubiquitous. The most recent studies suggest that half of data center projects in the United States in 26 have been blocked or stalled by local opposition and community resistance. But, you know, the number may actually be higher.

I mean, we don't really know. But even that, I mean, let's rewind for a second. The New York Times reported that the amount that AI and big tech companies were going to be spending on data center hardware and software in 2026 was going to be the equivalent of the military budget of the United States from a few years ago, from fiscal year 2022. And we know how massive that is. Right.

That's half or more of the entire budget of the government of the United States, the richest country and the history of the world. Right. And so that's the volume and quantity that we're talking about. And so to think that half of those projects are being blocked by nurses and teachers and firefighters and students is unbelievable and incredibly inspiring. And a lot of what we're trying to do, you know, with our project on the hum is literally just be like,

yo, tell us your story. Like, how did you go from, you know, in our episode that's coming out tomorrow, from being a beautician to actually winning a moratorium on data centers in your town? And the answer is I organized my clients, who I would do, you know, beauty salon work with. And they were all like, yeah, this sucks.

Like, get these people out. And so it's just these incredibly inspiring stories that are cropping up everywhere. And you literally couldn't make this stuff up. I mean, it's cinematic. Half of the projects of like the most expensive buildout and the history of the world. I mean, we could have high speed rail in this country. And instead, they're offering us these extremely janky tools to make bad Facebook posts.

I mean, it's just like people are seeing through that. That's a really good comparison to make too, right? Especially because I think we all want nice trains, you know? I want fast trains. I want them to be sleek and sexy trains. And I don't want like, you know, some uncle to be posting slop instead of like, you know, hanging out of this family. I mean, totally. Yeah. And why do they have to take some? long. Anyway. But, you know, when we're seeing all of these projects getting blocked, I feel like sometimes

we hear, you know, obviously there have been narratives about this for a long time, right? About people who want to block development, just being people who, you know, oppose all development, right? You know, there are people who are not in my backyard. They don't want new apartment buildings near their homes. They don't want data centers near their homes. They don't want anything near their homes because they want to keep it like, you know, idyllic in the way that it is. Now, I always find these arguments ridiculous, right? especially when it comes to data centers. But I wonder how you reflect on kind of seeing these narratives,

you know, that have been used so long against, you know, attempts to stop housing development now being deployed to be like, oh, it's these same people just trying to stop the data center. So obviously we need to like discredit them. What do you make of those narratives? Yeah, I mean, it's totally misleading. But I also think it's funny because if we think about it, you know, Stephen Miller, you know, one of the chief architects of the Trump regimes

getting in bed with big tech actually moved out of his home into a barracks because he said it wasn't safe because his neighbors were drawing in chalk that he sucks on the sidewalk. There was no polluting his water. There was no electric bill going up. Nothing was actually making his home uninhabitable

other than he was being an asshole. And so everyone in the neighborhood hated him. And he was like ruining people's lives and leading a project to abduct other neighbors. And so people were writing in chalk and like yelling at him. And he said, oh, this isn't safe. And you can't do that in my backyard. Well, now they're saying,

hey, like these folks who are saying, please don't make my water undrinkable, my house unable to turn on the lights, my driveway unable to play in because there's so much noise coming from the data center. And it's like, oh, well, you guys are just a bunch of curmudgins. I mean, it's, it's preposterous. And no one wants a data center in their backyard, which is why we have zoning laws in this country, which are not strong enough and not tight enough, obviously. I mean, look, no, further than the suburbs. But I think that we have an opportunity here to say, why, like actually ask someone in Louisiana, in Michigan, in Mississippi, in North Dakota, why do people not want these projects? And why are some of them happening even though people

don't want them? This is a very different issue than like, oh, we all have to pitch in for something we all want. And that's what paying taxes and living in civilized modern society is about. No one wants this. Like absolutely no one wants it. It's not like, if it was like, oh, you know, you have to give up part of your apartment because we're going to like set up a healthcare clinic that's going to help everyone knock a cancer or like get treatment if they do, then like a lot of people would be like, wow, like that's tough.

But people at their core can be very generous. But what we're seeing here is, hey, we're going to take your land and screw over your entire town. And what you're going to get in exchange is a metal box that you can't use and won't pay you anything, et cetera, et cetera. I mean, you know, it speaks for itself, but I think it is really important to tease out saying that these arguments are NIMBY is a fundamentally elitist thing to say in my view because you have to first ask people why they're resisting. And then you have to ask yourself, would I want that in my 20th story apartment in Manhattan or Chicago? Like, probably not.

Totally, totally. And it's it's so wild to hear it too, right? because it's so different, you know, like opposing an apartment building or something because you just want to have a suburban community is so different from saying, okay, this project is slated for my community. As you're saying, it could increase my power bills. It could make my water, you know, kind of dirty or, you know, kind of restrict my access to it.

I might have to hear noise pollution from these air conditioning units and stuff constantly. Like, it's such a different thing, but you can see how the industry so like deceptively deploys that type of narrative to try to like, you know, discredit the opposition that they're facing from their ambitions, right? And why, you know, I think any right-minded person hears that and it's like, this sounds ridiculous, but obviously they are trying to use whatever weapon is in their toolkit to discredit the attempt to stop them from doing whatever they want. 100%. And I think the interesting thing about the data center resistance is it's one of first cases where new media has been effective at getting information out to people the way

that newspapers used to. And I think this is really important thing for folks to consider. It used to be that most everyone in America was educated and informed by a daily newspaper that was coming to their doorstep and it was affordable and everyone got it. And it wasn't perfect. You know, there were still problems with corporate control before. Like, let's not overly, you know, put on rose-colored glasses or, you know, whatever thing you want to say. But ultimately, it's been hard for people to get accurate information in recent times. And there's been a collective effort on the left, right and center politically, but also on by musicians and by content creators and by artists and by librarians and by teachers.

There's so many people who are invested in not having towns and schoolyards and elderly homes be taken over by data centers. And people are using so many channels that it's one of the first times where there's actually broad understanding of an issue all at once in a sense. Not to say people don't know about other stuff, right, but there's so much conflicting information online these days. We don't have consistent info. And everyone who's looked at data centers has been like, this is, you know, this is going to be controlled and profited off of by like nine angry men in Silicon Valley. Like, this sucks. And so it's an interesting case of like how new media across the political spectrum when there's immediate agreement and

clarity is actually really getting the info out to people. And credit, of course, to outlets, like More Perfect Union and others who have done really effective education on like what's actually going on in these places. Absolutely. You know, as you were saying that More Perfect Union was the one that, like, first came to my mind because I feel like they've done so many effective videos on, you know, what different people and different communities have been experiencing as data centers have been slated and, you know, started to be built. in those places, you know, a meta one comes to mind in particular, but I know that they've done multiple reports on it that have been very widely viewed, not just across the United States,

but beyond as well, right, as a way to inform people of what actually comes with these types of projects. And like, I feel like the United States was kind of early in, you know, having this opposition grow to the level that it has because, you know, there are so many data centers slated for the United States. But I feel like we're increasingly seeing that in other countries as well. And, you know, kind of learning about what happened in the United States was kind of like a precursor and a warning for what was coming to so many other places, not to say that there weren't other places dealing with data centers before now, you know, but yeah, I feel like it has really helped, not just in the U.S., but beyond the U.S. as well for people to know what's coming.

100%. And I think that comes back to, you know, something about this critique of people opposing data centers as being like NIMBY or its bad faith or something. Ultimately, the opposite has not only been true, but the idea that people are just saying no isn't really accurate. When we talk to people about their data center fights and why they're in them, people have a phenomenal and uplifting vision about what is possible. I talk to people who are like, my town is a utopia. I love living in America. I love buying produce from my neighbor. and I love having fertile soil. And I love raising my kids on this farm in hopes that they can make the choice if they want to raise their kids here too or not.

But what I don't love is that choice being taken away by someone who's not from here. What I don't love is building indiscriminately on the most fertile and arable soils in the United States of America. And so we hear these alternate visions. I mean, people say I'm fighting data centers because I just want my kid to go to school and be able to learn. without having asthma and other potential consequences, headaches that are going to affect her in school. It's a simple but beautiful vision. You know, one of the folk musicians that we talk to has been playing at all these different places around the state of Michigan. His name's Seth Bernard.

He's a great folk musician in the state. And he goes to data center events and protests and performs. And I was like, dude, why are you going to all these protests? They're like three hours from your family farm. And he was like, well, you know, we chase the data center developers out of our town. but we don't want them to go somewhere else. And so my responsibility is to my neighbors, you know, a few miles away, not just my neighbors like down the road.

And also he's like, music is the alternative. Getting people together in family farms, in small towns, in college towns, and playing music and being like, yo, like what we want is this. We want to all come together and play music and hang out and take care of each other and learn from our elders and stuff. Like, this is what we're looking for. And that's a beautiful vision of not only what life can be like in America, but around the world.

People want to be able to enjoy their life and thrive and improve the conditions for the next generation. And data centers essentially represent the opposite. I mean, people don't want their kids to be more addicted to their phones. They don't want them to be more reliant on chatbots. They don't want them to be at risk of taking their life or other horrible things because of these completely deregulated chatbots that marks. Zuckerberg and Peter Thiel completely know about and have promoted.

So I think it's really important to highlight that when people say in policy spaces, oh, we don't have a positive vision, it's like, go ask someone, you know, where we're from in Michigan or in different parts of the deep south. People know what they want. They want to be able to lead a dignified life and they want their family to be able to have a barbecue. It's not that complicated. And if we're going to spend this much money, they want to fast fucking train.

Like, that's what it comes down to. Absolutely. Give us the trades, you know? But I feel like even hearing you say that about the folk singer, like, it kind of feels like both music is like perfect for data center opposition as well, right? You know, thinking about the history of folk music in like, you know, U.S. protest movements and civil rights movements and things like that as well, right? But even with what you're saying there, like, it really brings to mind something that you

have, you know, mentioned a few times now. And that certainly, you know, has become apparent in polling and in the research that I did as well, which is that, you know, this is not like a left-right issue, opposition to data centers, right? It's very much a cross-partisan issue that goes across any political lines. Like, I think I even saw polls that showed Republicans were more opposed to data centers as Democrats than, you know, it's a very slight, you know, more opposed. They're both very opposed in general. But like we see that in Canada, I'm sure we see it in other countries as well, where it doesn't matter, you know, what side of the political spectrum you're on. There is this kind of common opposition. to the data centers in particular. And I wonder for you, like when you see that, right, that it's not just like a bunch of Democrats

or a bunch of left-wingerers who are out opposing data centers, what does that tell you? And does that, does that kind of suggest an opportunity, you know, kind of looking at the kind of nature of people who are opposed to data centers and how it isn't just like one political persuasion who doesn't like these things? Absolutely.

I mean, when I talk to folks about, you know, people reach out and they say, hey, we have a data center being built here. Can you help us? Do you know anyone in the area, et cetera? And they've been doing that for at this point, years.

I mean, and it takes like 20 minutes to find out what their politics are and where they pray and what, you know, what they do after work every day. Like, you don't really know because the conversation starts and is like, hey, there's a data center being built here. We think it's a raw deal. And we're worried about the impact on our community that was already struggling with real problems. We don't want to create one.

I mean, that is what almost everyone says. And then they might, you know, go into a thing about how they're disappointed in President Trump for allying with big tech. They might then go into a thing about how, you know, actually like big tech is just the latest and it's like perfectly allied with the authoritarian project of, you know, the Trump regime. And they might be like, honestly, this just sucks. And like, this thing is loud. Like, can you please help me?

Like, I need help. And so it totally starts in a similar place and then diverges. And I think that's a lesson for the organizing that needs to happen. Let's start with what we agree on, which is that people should, like, the reason we live in a society where we pay taxes and the reason that we live in a society where we have public roads that we can drive down. And in some cases, public transportation, why we have public libraries. The reason that we build shared things is to lift up whoever has the least. and the people who are getting data centers built in their front yard are in this case the people who need our help. And they're just the representation of something much broader, which is there's no rules for big tech.

It's harder to open up a hot dog stand than it is to open up an AI data center because you just go and like use money to push through any regulations that exist and do whatever you want in any state in this country, basically. If you want to, you know, open a restaurant, it's like, oh, like, where do you buy the employees must wash hands sign? Like, what are the requirements to make sure that, you know, you get a health inspection that you can pass? What are the distribution and, like, purchase costs of buying wholesale hot dogs? Like, I have no idea, but that stuff is complicated. If you want to build an AI data center at this time, there are no rules in the United States of America, basically at all. and where there have been rules about zoning, about corporate control or whatever, what they've done is they've ignored them and then told the cities and towns that they're going to sue them into bankruptcy if they oppose it.

And so there's absolutely no regard for whatever tiny amount of laws are on the books. And I think that's important to understand because to the extent that there's huge polarization and disagreement on so many things in this country, I don't think anyone really wants the richest people to be able to do whatever they want at expensive everyone else. And so I think that's a coming together point that is bringing, I mean, the conversations I hear about the types of people that are working with each other are astonishing. And it's really a beautiful thing. So. Totally. Like it feels like there's a real opportunity in that as well, right? You know, like the United States feels like it has been so starkly divided, at least, you know, for the past decade,

if not, if not longer, right? You know, since the Trump moment, but even really during the Obama years is, you know, when that really, I feel like golf started to grow. And I'm sure there will be people listening to the show who will be like, no, Paris, it's been there forever. Anyway, you know, what I'm saying is that there's a really stark divide and that to see data centers and to see like, you know, the tech industry as a whole as something that potentially like brings people together in opposing what this very powerful group of people is doing in American society. And also globally, yeah, it feels like there's a real opportunity for someone who, you know, if they really wanted to like put together a populist campaign around this, right, that kind of

centered things that would benefit everybody across the political persuasion that would take data centers as, you know, one key piece of that, that there would be an opportunity in, you know, trying to bring people from, you know, across the political divine, I guess, together for something that actually, as you're saying, tries to fix these problems in people's communities and in their lives, um, rather than I feel like what we too often see from, you know, major political parties these days, right? 100%. And I think, I mean, it's pretty amazing, you know, I find that people who are organizing in a data center space and AI resistance are finding realignment within themselves and

growing within ourselves. I mean, I was talking to someone who was like, first of all, like, I don't want you really thinking I'm a Democrat, but I do want you to know that the reason I'm so worried about this data center project is because there's 30 acres of old growth trees that we're stewarding on our property. And if the aquifer gets drained for a big box that I don't even know what they're doing, then those trees are going to die. And that is a piece of my family history, but also, you know, the history of the state of Michigan. That is a piece of the history of this country that has been around longer than, you know, these trees were here before the founding fathers signed any documents or frankly even showed up in this country. And so it was really interesting because I was like, wow, this person, you know,

I don't know exactly what their politics were. And it didn't matter. It's like, what a beautiful story. It's like, we got the fucking Lorax out here who's like, I, you know, I mean, I'm like, yo, what can I do to help you? Because it was so beautifully said, so heartfelt and so honest. And the idea that someone's just like, this isn't even about themselves. It's not about the property value of their property. It's about, yo, like, we've been protecting these trees. And now we're just saying, not only is a company going to come in here and take this, but the government and the governor are signing it away. So they barely have to even pay to do it. Like, they don't even have to pay for the water and they're getting tax breaks like crazy. I mean, the heartbreak and the, in the courage of

people to stand up for this kind of stuff is really unbelievably inspired. And it really makes you, I think it's helping a lot of people step past the political divide and say we might disagree on a lot of things, but like I would do anything to help someone like that, right? God forbid, that's the bare minimum you can do. Totally. And you can really see the contrast there too, right, in in people who just really care about their community and, you know, the specifics of how that's going to look in different communities is going to be different because, you know, communities are unique, right? versus these major tech companies who are just coming in and trying to impose this thing, have no connection, have no regard for the local context, for what effects are going to be had on local people, the local environment, any of that kind of stuff. It's just like, oh, we need another one of these boxes to power, chat GPT, or something like that.

And, you know, nothing else really matters. And I wonder, you know, you mentioned one example there, like, as you have been doing this, as you have been talking to activists, across the United States. Are there particular data centers or campaigns that really stand out to you when you think about this where maybe things have been particularly egregious or there has been like a success that you found really kind of like inspiring or something like that? Gee, so many.

I mean, one of the ones that I'd like to highlight is the full data center ban that was passed on Seminole land in Oklahoma. The Seminole Nation took up consideration of a bill. and it was originally a moratorium. And it wasn't a very, what's even the way to frame it, like aggressive or front edge bill in some ways. And others it was. But it was basically like, we need a moratorium because we're worried about this.

And I interviewed Councilman Chabon, who's an elder in the community and on the council of Seminole Nation. And he basically brought it forward and people were like, why would we do this temporarily? Like, we don't want this. And then people. said, well, yeah, actually no counterargument. And so they changed it to a ban. And then they said, well, it's not just the data centers, but we're worried about the way that artificial general intelligence is stealing language that we've developed over hundreds and hundreds of years, thousands, right? And it's now trying to replace the role of elders in reteaching this language and

doing so incorrectly. And so they actually expanded what was a basic moratorium bill that are moving all over the country and all kinds of different places and actually turned it into a ban on data centers and to some extent artificial general intelligence infrastructure on Seminole territory. And when I talked to Chabon about it, I was blown away because he was like, Saul, like I didn't come forward with this radical or proposal. And I actually don't think what we landed on was radical. But what happened was people were like, why are we even talking about this? We have kids to feed. We have schools. We have schools. with leaky roofs.

We have folks who are getting older and we're trying to figure out how to care for them. We have fruit and vegetables that are not fresh coming into our grocery stores and we need to figure out how to get fresher food

and the community center needs an upgrade. Why are we spending time on the council talking about something that no one asked for, no one wants, and is actually not of a benefit to our community and represents a pretty existential threat. And so that fight stood out to me.

And of course, there was organizing, like even political bodies with amazing, courageous leaders like Chabon, like don't necessarily do something without working with advocates and local folks. But there was organizing, but it was pretty remarkable to me how organically people were like, they took a step back and they're like, why are we having this conversation? Like, we literally have so much urgent stuff going on. And like the data center thing, all the media is pushing it. All these companies are like trying to jam it down our throats.

It's like we not only don't want this, like we actually don't want to talk about it again because we have other stuff to do and we're busy. I thought that was crazy and so relatable. It's like, why are we even talking about this right now? It's because these things have been pushed on us, but no one was like, oh, like we really want to sit down and talk about big, you know, austere metal boxes going into our community that are going to, you know, house military secrets and pornographic images of non-consenting teenagers, right? Like, no one said this, and here we are. So I think that's one story that stands out among many. Yeah, and I love that too, right? I feel like one of the, you know, I guess positive aspects of seeing the push to build out all

these data centers is actually how it has prompted, you know, not just the opposition, but also, you know, discussions about what do people actually want in their communities, right? You know, if the data centers aren't part of it, like, what is the goal? And even beyond that, you know, going back to something that you were saying earlier, like the data center is also then force a conversation about, you know, the tech infrastructure more broadly, right? Like if we are not okay with this data center, what are the other pieces of this infrastructure that, you know, we're used to depending on we're used to using that are not working for us. And I feel like it prompts this like positive

conversation around the community, right? What do we actually want here versus not just what we're opposing? But also what is the broader problem that comes along with this infrastructure that, maybe we're all kind of experiencing issues with, but maybe we haven't like vocalized to the degree that, you know, maybe we should have. And a lot of people are feeling this. And now we're all having this conversation, not just about data centers, but, you know, about what Silicon Valley has sold us these past couple decades more broadly. 100%. And, you know, I kind of, I have a question for you, not to flip the script on your own podcast, but I'm kind of curious, like, what, uh, what your thoughts have been about this?

Because if we look at what's happening in the data center fights, everyone you hear about is, oh, you know, in Michigan, people are worried about water. In Texas, they're worried about mining. In Virginia, they're worried about energy. Obviously, it's not that simple. Everyone's worried about everything. But there's literally like 15 different things. I mean, that's not to mention the noise. It's not to mention the tax abatements. It's not to mention the soil quality erosion. It's not to mention the surveillance that can come with these big facilities being across the street. I mean, so the amount of, and then now in West Virginia, there's been flooding because

of data center projects, like not appropriately dealing with this. And the list goes on and on. But if we took all of those externalities away, if we said, oh, we even figured out how to make these not use a ton of energy and a ton of water and they're being responsible and not flooding and ruining entire community's livelihoods, even if that was true, who are the data centers for? And do we want to be spending energy on these projects? And I'm curious if you've thought about that all in your research and writing about the core concept of a hyperscale AI data center.

Yeah, absolutely. Unfortunately, something I've been thinking about for a while, right? Yeah, I'm sure. And I love how your question also laid out so many of the problems with these infrastructures as well in a very kind of like concise and effective way. So I just want to say that as well. But yeah, I feel like who benefits? Well, you know, there's a few things, right? On the one hand, you have the AI companies that are pushing it because they want to, like,

roll out this product even further. I feel like you have the major cloud companies who benefit from it, the Amazon's, Microsofts, and Googles of the world because the AI kind of gives them a justification to push more computationally intensive tools onto their, you know, onto their client base, basically, and to try to attract new clients. And so their cloud divisions are growing immensely as they're, building out all of these data centers in order to supply, you know, the needs. But then I also feel like, you know, beyond like the economic piece of this, right, beyond that kind of

component, that there is also like an ideological piece to it as well, right? Where they have a particular vision for what the future of technology should be. And in the way that you mentioned artificial general intelligence, like, I feel like there's a lot of these tech billionaires who really think that we should be trying to like build the brain in the computer and someone like Sam Altman has even said that we should eventually merge with computers and all this kind of stuff. And I feel like that motivates the approach to the technology where it's like, it's an AI tool that needs to try to understand everything rather than just being like, you know, small AI tools that use far less energy or computation that are trained on specific

types of information or whatnot. But also that like, you know, it just requires an immense amount of computation because you would imagine that if it computer is going to think, if a computer is going to take in all this knowledge, it's going to need more and more and more. And I feel like that is like part of the motivation that often doesn't get maybe the consideration that it deserves. It's just these people are so disconnected from regular people, from the lives of regular people and exist in this like world of fantasy and science fiction that they are trying to make reality. And then we all kind of pay the price for that, right? When we see these infrastructures, you know, plunk down in our community.

but also, you know, the tech products that are created as a result of that kind of drive and how they have no interest in thinking about the harms that come of those technologies because they're only thinking about the great future that they're hoping to achieve, you know, at some point, I guess. Yeah, I don't know. That's how I think about it. But yeah, no, it's interesting. I mean, it also, like what you're saying kind of gets at this thing that I've been thinking about a lot in recent months, which is that they really, are trying to control a narrative where like AI is happening no matter what and like what we need to focus on is the existential outcomes. Right. And so like the two camps are like the Sam Altman's who are like, you know, God is the computer and I'm God and, you know, whatever other blasphemists and crazy things that he's saying. And then there's, you know, the folks who are trying to like carve out more of a woke lane and Anthropic who are like, oh, like we should regulate AI. But by the way, like we want to write the regulation so that they benefit our business model.

And if you're concerned about AI, you should be concerned about like theoretical bio-weapons that might be developing soon. But like stop worrying so much about data centers, stop wearing so much about, you know, the things that are affecting people's daily lives. And also we're going to claim to be very concerned about like AI safety,

but we're still going to work a ton with the military and intelligence services. So they can use. Oh, yeah, totally. I mean the whole, yeah, the whole idea that like, oh, the true folks who are interested in AI safety are these like anthropic alums or whatever or current folks who are like, well, you know, actually if you want to be safe, like, you should just build our data center instead of someone else's or whatever. It just feels like it's all just a marketing scheme.

And so I think one of the things that's refreshing about the data center fight in this broader AI conversation is that the folks fighting data centers aren't talking in those terms. I mean, there are existential threats of AI. Like, let's not take away that reality. to some extent, but it's also like, it really matters how the near-term build-out of the infrastructure underpinning AI happens. And it really matters who it's built for and how. And if these folks were actually really interested in like forwarding the project of

humanity and like building knowledge and retaining knowledge and replacing filing cabinets and building out stronger computers, like they would invest in public libraries and build out, you know, data sent the original data centers with new capabilities. with new capabilities that were publicly regulated and controlled and accessible to everyone. And so I think it's important for listeners and for other folks to think about that. Like if they actually were doing in this in good faith, like how different it would be. It wouldn't be, you know, build a data center with our company versus another. Like if you're worried about this, you should only worry about this like very existential specific thing.

It would actually be like, yo, what do you think we should do with this technology advancing really quickly? And how are we going to build it together so that it can benefit people and reduce how hard everyone has to work every day instead of replacing artists and stealing people's images? Totally. No, I completely agree. And I feel like the existential piece of it is also used to distract from the real harms that are occurring that people are experiencing right now, right? Whether that's from the use of the AI tools themselves or, you know, as we're talking about the kind of build out of the infrastructure, the data centers that are necessary for it. But, you know, I was wondering, you know, we're talking about kind of this bigger picture, right? And I wonder when you're talking to and, you know, working on campaigns around data centers, how much do you see that kind of focusing on just the local issues of like power or water or noise pollution or what have you? And how often do you see that kind of, you know, expanding to these broader issues with the tech infrastructure more widely, you know, the, as you were talking about earlier, the issues with social media or the issues with chatbots.

and those bigger picture issues. How much do you see those as part of the conversations around data centers as well? Yeah, I mean, it's a mix, right? You know, some people who I've talked to are like, yo, to be honest, I started the Facebook group to fight this data center project, and I use AI in every aspect of my job every day, and I have no problem with that. And I was like, all right, like, what's your next sentence going to be? You know, like, that's great, but like, I don't really understand what's going on.

And she was like, you know, I work in IT. Like I understand that this technology is important. And I also don't think that we need to just be indiscriminately building massive like commercial and industrial facilities like 10 feet away from residential areas. And I don't think anyone wants that regardless of our position on AI and data centers. And so I think that part of the story of the data center rebellion is is the mixture of people with different opinions on AI issues themselves. But I'll also say that the amount of concern is growing about these broader technologies through the data center fights because people are asking

pretty basic questions and not getting answers. One person who's running for a local elected office told me that he went up to the data center developer after a meeting about how they wanted to build a data center in the side yard of a public high school. And he was like, hey, could I get your contact information? Like, I just want to follow up on this. And the guy was like, I don't think that'll be necessary and walked away. And so like the hubris and the feeling of like we don't have to play by the rule. Is it something that's really, people are starting to say, wait a second.

Like I, you know, I'm not trying to tell you how you use your computer or something because I don't really care. But this is a broader problem of like these folks are really doing whatever they want. And also like, why are they so intent on building this data center right here in such a horrible place? And people start to say, well, you know, I've only heard of one case of this. But I think there's going to be more and more of this. People are figuring out what's being housed at the data centers. And they're saying, well, you guys are housing military secrets or you're housing information on people that you're going to bomb in other countries or your housing user data that was

like lifted off people when they were buying clothes at Unicle or Target or something, right? I mean, people are starting to say, like, not only what is this for, but let's figure out what this is for and demonstrate that this isn't actually powering us using an AI tool to make our work easier. Like, that's not what these data centers are doing by and large. It's housing data about Americans for surveillance. It's housing, you know, tools for exercise, you know, war exercises that a lot of people don't believe in and don't support.

And so it's coming up in different ways. But I think increasingly, people are starting to say, wait a second, like, there's no way we need this many fucking data centers. Like, what are they doing there? And they won't let anyone in. And so that makes it even more, you know, it's like a, you know, Disney movie, the like dark, scary corridor that you're going down,

you know, deep underground in Aladdin or something. You're like, what the hell is going on down here? This can't possibly be good. Totally. And, you know, they had these big fences around and the cameras are everywhere. I was walking by one and like there was, there were like spikes at the top of all the, you know, posts around the fence.

Right. And it was like, you know, don't try to come over. Exactly. I wonder what you make of like, you know, you were mentioning a moratorium or a data center ban earlier. And we have obviously seen the kind of legislative efforts around data centers growing in the past few years. You know, we've seen on the federal level, you know, Bernie Sanders and Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez have been talking more about data centers proposing legislation. You know, I saw on the state level, someone even in Florida like Ron DeSantis has been talking a lot about data centers recently. I wonder what you think of how legislative discussions are moving forward in the United States.

And are there some that you see as particularly positive on this issue? Yeah, I mean, I think the moratorium is like the most popular term right now. And I don't think, you know, a lot of recent sort of punditry and essays have attacked that as unrealistic or something. But it sort of dramatizes the whole situation. I mean, a moratorium is literally the least radical proposition imaginable, and some would say it's actually a conservative position. You're basically saying, we're putting a pause on this happening because it's happening fast and out of control, and like we need to make sure that it works for everyone. That is a very normal thing to do, right? If anyone's in a meeting, no matter what you're working on and it's like getting out of control, it's like, hold on, let's pause.

Like, let's see. What do we have so far and how do we keep going? That's pretty normal thing to do. And that's all a moratorium means is a pause. So I think the moratorium push that's happening in this country represents a broad understanding and a shift to people saying this is about control. The whole fight over AI data centers is not at all about do you like AI or not. We talked about it a little. Some people are coming into the fights for different reasons and people can have their opinions and that's great.

But the tech industry wants to be able to say, oh, we're about the future and tech and you guys hate tech and you're losers. Like, that's their dream argument, right? And what's actually happening with moratoria is that people are saying, you know what, let's actually pause because we know that they're trying to move fast because they don't want us to see the facts. And let's just slow down and then we can make a decision. And then if there's proper regulations put in place, community benefits, all these different things, maybe some people would decide to build a data center, but it won't be just siphoning off the tax base and polluting their community and all these different things.

And so I think there's a lot of like legislative development that's needed to like further build this out. But the the data center moratorium piece has been a way for people to come together on agreeing like this is a fight over control. Right now big tech is trying to control literally everything like a small handful of companies are making all the investments in many cases with capital that they don't have. So the moratorium represents a pause. Now some of the things, you know, I think that have been really creative are not only, you know, a ban on like, broader AI infrastructure on Seminole territory, which I mentioned before, which I thought was pretty interesting. But there's a lot of other things that people are doing where they're starting to zoom out and say, wait, what is it that we actually want? Because a pause gives you

an opportunity to be like, hey, like you guys have said we don't have any money to fix up the library in 25 years. You've said that our small town is going under because no one wants to live here. And now you're accepting something that or trying to accept something that actually would make even less people want to live here. And so people are asking real questions about what the alternatives are. And I think that's really exciting. The basic thing that I think we need is the opposite of what some in the current administration have been proposing, which is sort of a trust-based vibes-based, you know, regulatory regime. We need zero trust governance. And all that means is like, we can't take the word of someone who's going to massively profit off of a project at face value.

we actually have to have the facts ourselves when we're making decisions. And we need basic rules governing these things. And so it's about two things, I think. Post-mortarium, what are we doing once the policy is up? One is putting regulations in place to say, if you want to build these projects, you need to pay full freight, you need to guarantee, you know, you actually have to pay for your energy so that it's not ruining the energy of other folks. You have to pay for the energy infrastructure so that it's not coming.

It has to be clean infrastructure. Like if we actually made the energy. despair, there wouldn't be so many data center projects happening and they wouldn't be ruining people's lives if they were using renewable energy and recycling water seriously, not with some fake gadgets or whatever. And so I think the legislation that's been really interesting to me is the ones where it says, you know what? And I don't mean these flimsy things where people are like, well, data centers would be fine if they just had solar panels on them. I mean, let's be serious. That's ridiculous and doesn't account for what 90% of people are saying about other things.

But I think I guess the point I'm getting to is like when people are saying let's make data centers come in at cost. We're not subsidizing them with the tax base. We're not letting them pollute our air. We're not letting them drink up all of our water. We're actually forcing them to hire people to do the jobs instead of robot dogs. When people are putting forward legislation like that, which isn't that complicated. Like we know what the problems are, then less data centers are being built and the cost is actually falling on the billionaires who can afford it. And so I think that's the kind of thing that comes out of the moratorium, which is really exciting.

The moratorium is everyone saying, whoa, this is about control and we don't have control. It's moving too fast. And then you can start to say, like, what would it look like to make these things pay for the cost to the community of actually building? And then I don't think we're going to see as many. Yeah, the kind of exciting conversations happen on the other side of the moratorium once it's in place. And, you know, we've said, we don't want to move fast and break communities, but what do we want on the other side of this? I wonder, you know, as we're seeing this growth of moratoriums, do you think that data centers are going to become an issue in the midterm elections? You know, are we seeing tech companies already start to kind of deploy money to try to influence candidates in that direction?

What are you seeing there? Hugely. I mean, the, you know, the PAC and the money that's been flowing in from AI companies is the biggest of any industry in these elections. And they're really trying to buy candidates and having a fair amount of success. One recent example is Sam Altman and Governor Gretchen Whitmer of Michigan doing like a big press conference together and ribbon cutting last week in Michigan about this project in Saline that actually local people voted against but they moved forward with anyways. And I mean, talk about a full full sellout. I mean, the governor is going out and doing this thing that Democrats, Republicans, everyone else locally and around the state opposes with huge tax. breaks getting given away. So that's someone who isn't even running for election right now, but I think we've seen it across the midterms across the parties. It's actually for a lot of

people the main issue because they're like, wow, I, you know, I haven't been voting, but now I'm going to because I'm worried about the Data Center project. And we've seen people putting out surveys and information about like, how are these candidates voting on the data center issue? We saw that in Maryland in local elections. They're saying, okay, here's what each of these candidates have said on data centers because they're like a lot of people are going to vote this way. And, you know, with our corrupt election system, it's really hard to know what the impact is going to be because the, these same billionaire companies are putting huge amounts of money. And what's sad about that, Paris, is that like, it turns out that in the context where

companies can spend basically infinite money on elections, we don't get to an answer about what the right thing is. Like, I might not know what the right thing is. You might not know what the right thing is. but hopefully agree that like there's some compromise and conversation that will work for the most amount of people that is probably the thing that we should do. And we're not going to get there if these, you know, huge corporations keep spending to be able to further their own profits. And so, I mean, they wouldn't be spending this much money if they didn't know that it could lead to them making way more money. And that's what we're seeing. So what the impact is is hard to tell because on the other side, you know, populist candidates like Will Lawrence, who's running for Congress. the Lansing area are running on an anti-Data Center platform and are working with folks across

political lines, but also folks of many different ages. He's like a young candidate, but he's had so much interest. He was recently endorsed by Bernie Sanders. And, you know, you talk to him. He's like, listen, I went to a town hall that was all these folks fighting data centers, and they were all basically Democrats. And I drove three miles through my district and got to another town hall. Basically, everyone's saying the same thing. And it was all Republicans. And the reception at the two was the same. And he's running as a Democrat, but he's a very, you know, independent-minded person. I think there's a lot of candidates like that around the country who are like, you know what, I'm unbought and I'm unafraid because like I see what's happening here. And I'm not interested in

taking that money. So it's definitely already playing a huge role. How it's going to shake out, I think, you know, we'll have to wait and see. Yeah. And I remember already reading about that kind of already happening at local and state levels in some states already, right? You know, of these kind of independent candidates or more independent-minded candidates, at least, who are just opposed to data centers. To end off our conversation, I wonder just kind of big picture, like, where do you think things are going from here? And what are your hopes for this kind of movement against data centers as this continues to grow? You know, my hope is that people can keep coming together organically and sharing their stories with each other, because we had one friend who reached

a couple weeks ago and was like, yo, by the way, just by you putting me in a signal chat with some of my neighbors, we realized, like, we had all the people in the chat to figure something out, and we won a moratorium in our town, and we got a project canceled, excuse me, because we were just in conversation with each other, and we were all in agreement. And so my hope is that the data center fight, in that it's so unifying, can unite people across the United States to take more control back of our lives. I think so many of us are tired of the role that these huge tech companies and big corporations in general have played because there's so few rules for them in the United States. And in fact, companies have less rules than you or I would walking around

in this country. And so I think it's really exciting and really beautiful to think that people are going to be able to rise up and resist. And even in a relatively unfunded and loosely organized project that's happening right now, half of projects are getting blocked. And so I think it's very inspiring the way people are coming together. But what my hope is is that we can translate, go beyond the moratorium thing and say, what do people want instead? How can this huge amounts of money that's being invested go towards expanding libraries, right? Like we talked about before, how can this huge amount of investment go towards building parks? We keep hearing about stories where when the data center project fails, they're building a basketball court. I mean, it's just

amazing. It's like, when was the last time you saw a brand new basketball court go up in a public space in the United States or Canada, frankly? Like, we don't invest. We don't invest. invest enough in these things. And so my hope is that we can move beyond the pause and say, we pause because we want to have a say. And now that we're taking more control, here's what we want. We want a skate park and we want an elderly home that has some trees next to it. And, you know, we want rural hospitals to take care of people in places that are hard to reach. Like, I think there's a beautiful vision that can come out of the coming together if so many people are on this issue. Yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense. And, you know, I found a lot of

hope in this movement so far. And it would be great if, you know, then it can turn into something that's not just about opposing data centers, but about, you know, trying to make communities better more broadly where these data centers were supposed to be located. But they've been blocked and now there's better things as a result. Saul, it's been really great to speak with you to get your insight on all this. Thanks so much for taking the time. Yeah, thanks, Paris.

It was a lot of fun. Saul Levin is a community organizer and host of The Humb. Tech Won't Save Us has made a partnership with the Nation magazine, and is hosted by me, Paris Marks. Production is by Kyla Husson. Tech won't save us relies on the support of listeners like you to keep providing critical perspectives on the tech industry. You can join hundreds of other supporters

by going to patreon.com slash Tech Won't Save Us and making a pledge of your own. Thanks for listening and make sure to come back next week.